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deltaenterprizes
02-13-2010, 11:43 PM
Believe it or not NBC broadcast the biathalon event and showed the athletes shooting! They were operating the bolt with their index finger.
What kind of rifle can that be?

ANeat
02-13-2010, 11:53 PM
I was also impressed/suprised that they showed the biathlon.

The majority of the Rifles were probably anshutz. They make a straight pull biathlon rifle

Doc Highwall
02-13-2010, 11:56 PM
That is a Anschutz 1827 Fortner.

ANeat
02-13-2010, 11:59 PM
Yea; I just checked Anchutz web site and they claim 95% of the biathlon competitors use their rifles

deltaenterprizes
02-14-2010, 12:17 AM
They are only $3400, a little out of my price range!

Mk42gunner
02-14-2010, 01:59 AM
My daughter called me in to watch part of that. Very slick bolt operation by the young women I saw. Did you notice how the stiff sling just hung out there on the left while they were shooting?

I think that would be a fun event to shoot, if I could ski.


Robert

GabbyM
02-14-2010, 09:39 AM
http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/home.php?cat=365

Link to some Anchutz target rifles. Junior model is on sale for $945.
They come with sights but I don't' know anything about these rifles or how good they are. These are CMP style rifles. To make a biathlon rifle I think you'd just start adding accessories while listening to the cash register go chaa ching. Then go buy the ski equipment.

I ran across these while drooling over the Tubb 2000 match rifles a few years ago. Have come to my senses now.

Big downside to these nice 22 match rifles is in order to make them work to potential you need 22 match grade ammo that cost a pile of money any more. Up side is I can't think of a better way for a person to learn rifle shooting. Plus not everyone wants to spend more time loading ammo than shooting.

Considering what I spent campaigning my daughters through soft ball a little match rifle would seam economical. Not really a fair comparison though.

deltaenterprizes
02-14-2010, 10:27 AM
Yes, the Elly comes to mind. A box of the good stuff costs as much as centerfire ammo.I knew an 80 year old man that was a 22 prone match shooter that used Elly 10x, you could cover his groups at 100 yds with a dime, all in the X ring.
His rifle only had the Anchutz action, he changed the stock, trigger and barrel. The stock looked like hell, he was always sanding the cheek area, but it fit him and it shot well and that is what counted.

c3d4b2
02-14-2010, 12:18 PM
You do not need to shoot the high priced ammo to have good results. One of the gentlemen I shoot with uses the Wolf / SK moderate ammo. He usually shoots cleans with High X counts (rumor has it he set a record in his younger days at Camp Perry that still stands). You will need to shoot different lots of ammo to find the ammo that shoots well in the rifle. I have had the high dollar ammo perform poorly and the mid-price range ammo perform very well. You also have to shoot several fouling shots before rifle bore is conditioned to the new ammunition.

You also do not need to spend high dollars for a rifle that shoots very well. The older competition guns shoot on par with the new rifles at a lot less cost. We have a young man that comes around with an older inexpensive rifle and does extremely well. And some gentlemen with high priced rifles that do not fare as well.

c3d4b2
02-14-2010, 12:21 PM
I ran across these while drooling over the Tubb 2000 match rifles a few years ago. Have come to my senses now.

Here is a link to a Tube Gun stock that was a precursor to the Tubb rifle. It uses a Remington style action.

http://www.tubegun.net/

c3d4b2
02-14-2010, 01:19 PM
I ran into this link on another site and thought you might be interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XIB7ydkplc&feature=player_embedded

Okie2
02-14-2010, 01:54 PM
I think there are races where you run instead of ski....for those of us who don't get that much snow.

Doc Highwall
02-14-2010, 01:55 PM
I have three Anschutz rifles and a pistol and love them. The only American rifle that was competitive with the Anschutz back in the 70's was the Winchester 52. The problem was 22 target rifles did not have a big market and the 52 cost as much as a model 70. There are a few smallbore shooters here and they tell you that you need to fit the rifle to yourself and Winchester did not make that commitment with stock adjustments. The 52 ruled back in the 30's- 60's when the rifles had a three pound weight limit and the 52 micro-motion trigger was/is excellent for this weight. Anschutz makes an excellent trigger that is set for 3.9oz from the factory with stock adjustments up the ying yang. Here is a picture of one of my 52's that I put an adjustable butt plate on. And yes the shooter must do things like torque tests for their 22 target rifle no matter who makes it along with testing ammo and in the end it will teach you follow through and wind reading skills.

fecmech
02-14-2010, 02:01 PM
In a recent Rifle Magazine article Charles Petty compared a bunch of .22 ammo at 50 yds using an old Model 52 Winny with a Unertl scope. The really high dollar stuff averaged .2" to .35" but what was interesting to me was stuff like cci std vel was .471 and Federal bulk pack HP's did .686"@50 yds!

ANeat
02-14-2010, 02:03 PM
I know perhaps 15 or 20 years ago Marlin made a bolt action biathlon rifle and there were some summer biathlon events in the states that involved running and shooting instead of sking.

I see that its still going on ;) http://biathlon.teamusa.org/pages/964

Echo
02-14-2010, 02:11 PM
No question but what the biathalon is a sport for athletes. The idea of skiing for speed, then having to calm down your heart rate for shooting, then back to skiing, &cetera, is daunting.

SciFiJim
02-14-2010, 02:46 PM
Wow, I just watched the video. I would have a heart attack after about 100 yards. It is extremely hard to shoot accurately when your pulse is 180.

Doc Highwall
02-14-2010, 03:04 PM
I have even seen it on TV where they were using bicycles in some hilly terrain. The closes rifle that will come to a Anschutz 1827 Fortner is the old Browning T Bolt. If you look closely you will see that the bolt is not lifted/turned then pulled back ejecting a spent case then pushed forward chambering a cartridge and lowered/turned between shots. The bolt is flicked back ejecting a spent case and flicked forward chambering a loaded cartridge and ready to fire.

Bass Ackward
02-14-2010, 03:05 PM
That's my old Browning T-Bolt.

deltaenterprizes
02-14-2010, 03:20 PM
In a recent Rifle Magazine article Charles Petty compared a bunch of .22 ammo at 50 yds using an old Model 52 Winny with a Unertl scope. The really high dollar stuff averaged .2" to .35" but what was interesting to me was stuff like cci std vel was .471 and Federal bulk pack HP's did .686"@50 yds!

In the serious games you need those .2'' groups to win and that is what you are paying for consistency!

fecmech
02-14-2010, 03:50 PM
In the serious games you need those .2'' groups to win and that is what you are paying for consistency!
No argument there but from my experience 90% of the shooters would be better off burning 3 times as many cci std vel cartridges in practice rather than trying to buy their score with Tenex.

deltaenterprizes
02-14-2010, 04:44 PM
No argument there but from my experience 90% of the shooters would be better off burning 3 times as many cci std vel cartridges in practice rather than trying to buy their score with Tenex.

I agree 100%, that is why I buy the bulk stuff at Walmart!
You can't run Walmart regular in NASCAR vehicle and expect to win, that is how it is in high level shooting competition.
They all have to go "BANG'' also!

Doc Highwall
02-14-2010, 04:45 PM
fecmech, you cannot buy the score, you have to learn to shoot it. A lot of people under estimate how hard it is to shoot a 22lr target rifle, the lack of recoil and muzzle blast is very deceiving. I know this from a first hand experience when I was shooting highpower rifle and started to shoot smallbore, what a wake up. Besides not having control over your ammunition by being able to change bullet,powder etc. you are limited to things like bedding, torque and different lots and brands of ammo. Most match grade of 22lr ammo has a muzzle velocity of 1030 fps. to 1080 fps. and this is not even half the velocity of a .223 Rem. or .308 Win. which makes learning follow through very important. Another thing you have to learn is how to read the wind and correct for it, part art, part science. These slow muzzle velocities affects our lead boolits also. I would like to see a chart listing the ballistic coefficients of all the cast boolits not just some.

smoked turkey
02-14-2010, 07:03 PM
I just finished watching the Biathalon and was very pleased to see the event on the olympics for all the world to see and enjoy. I was wondering what distance they were shooting and how large the black bullseye was. The falling snow seemed to hamper some of the shooters. I realize the timing of their run was the luck of the draw but it did seem a little unfair because some of the shooters didn't have to contend with the snow.

BSkerj
02-14-2010, 08:07 PM
West Yellowstone Mt has a excellant Biathalon course. I race in a standard 50k race up there every March and part of the course is on thier biathalon course. The shooting distance is 50m (160ft).
There is a Biathalon gun maker located in West..his name is Marc Sheppard and he owns Altius Handcrafted Firearms...he has his own website..Altiusguns.com. It is worth the stop to go into his shop and look around.
As I said above I ski race around the west...but to watch those guys/gals ski and shoot in person is beyond belief !

ANeat
02-14-2010, 09:37 PM
Here is the basics on the shooting portion.


The biathlete carries the small bore rifle, which weighs at least 3.5 kilograms (7.7 lb), including ammunition in magazines on her/his back during the race. The rifles use .22 LR ammunition and are bolt action or Fortner (straight-pull bolt) action.

The target range shooting distance is 50 metres (160 ft). There are five circular targets to be hit in each shooting round. When shooting in the prone position the target diameter is 45 millimetres (1.8 in), when shooting in the standing position the target diameter is 115 millimetres (4.5 in). On all modern biathlon ranges, the targets are self-indicating, in that they flip from black to white when hit, giving the biathlete as well as the spectators instant visual feedback for each shot fired.

.357
02-14-2010, 10:16 PM
I loved watching it, makes me want to take up skiing :-|:veryconfu

smoked turkey
02-14-2010, 10:56 PM
Thanks for the info ANeat on the particulars of the rifle and the course of fire. The size of the targets explains why some were having difficulty always hitting the bullseye. 1.8" and 4.5 " isn't all that large especially when one is having difficulty breathing and it is almost a whiteout while shooting off hand. Amazing shooting.

Blacksmith
02-14-2010, 11:25 PM
.22 rimfire rifles are very picky about the ammo each individual rifle likes. I believe it has to do with individual barrel harmonics caused by the machining, heat treating, and steel composition of each individual barrel. Prove it to yourself get a bunch of different brands and types of .22 ammo, go to the range and at 25 or better 50 yards shoot groups from sandbags, with a scope is better. The groups will get bigger, get smaller, move up, move sideways, etc. just by changing ammo. Then when you find the "best" ammo try another gun and you will probably find another "best". Generaly the high dollar stuff shoots better than most cheap stuff but your particular rifle may really like some mid price brand. Now when the grand kids are shooting we use the cheap stuff bought by the brick, if I want to intimidate you I will pull out a box of Eley Black box or Tenex but if I really want to win I'll use CCI SGB unless I am shooting my sons 52 then it will be be Remington Subsonic HP.

If you want to shoot .22 rimfire you need to do ammo testing.

Blacksmith

280Ackley
02-15-2010, 12:21 PM
I inherited this gun from an uncle who was a college shooter back in the 60's. It has been neglected and needs some work. The only marks that I can find are on the barrel and say 22 Cal Long Rifle. It is missing the magazine and needs a good take down cleaning. Anyone tell what it is and what the history is would be appreciated.

Doc Highwall
02-15-2010, 12:36 PM
I cannot tell you anything about the rifle but the scope looks like a Winchester A-5

280Ackley
02-15-2010, 01:19 PM
I cannot tell you anything about the rifle but the scope looks like a Winchester A-5

Sadly, the crosshairs are broken:-(

Doc Highwall
02-15-2010, 02:30 PM
They are places that will fix them.

ANeat
02-15-2010, 03:16 PM
280 Ack I think your rifle may be a Stevens 416

quilbilly
02-16-2010, 02:05 PM
In most of the summer biathlon matches where I officiated or acted as a rangemaster few of the athletes were good shooters which is why Anericans place so poorly in competitions. We even got beat by a French shooter this week. Embarassing!
Any Marlin bolt action with standard velocity 22's would have gotten you into the winners circle if you are a disciplined competent shooter. That is what can make biathlon fun. Anyone can get started and in most meets there are age classes for old guys like me ( if I still had good knees).
What I would like to get is one of those slings. In my area are hundreds of miles of logging roads open to hikers, horses, and bicycles but nothing motorized. Those slings are perfect for mountain bike riding/hunting.

280Ackley
02-16-2010, 08:09 PM
280 Ack I think your rifle may be a Stevens 416

Thanks, is there anyway to positively id this model?

ANeat
02-16-2010, 08:53 PM
From the little Ive looked around there were several re-branded variants made by Stevens thru the 30's and 40's . Sears, Western Field, Ranger.

Here is a Ranger from Gunbroker. Not "exactly" like yours but very very close.

Without having the gun to inspect its pretty tough. They could have one of the scope blocks installed over the barrel marking or something just plain wore off.
The best I can do is compare pics and make a semi-educated guess
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/157732000/157732587/pix280167890.jpg

Lawnjockey
02-16-2010, 09:03 PM
The slings caught my attention too. As a mt biker and trail runner it would be perfect for my Savager 24 20g X 30/30. I want.

By the way, don't tell anyone the Lawnjockey likes exercise, it would spoil my image and my kind are supposed to be lazy too.

Jocko

Rockydog
02-16-2010, 11:37 PM
280, That rifle looks similar to my Savage model NRA 19. The early model 19s had the barrel band like yours. But my action is slightly different. These old Savages are shooters. My best 25 yd .22BR target was 242/250 with 14x IIRC. Win 52s were winning the day with 247-248 and around 17-19x. Mine Shoots Eley best, Wolf Match and the now discontinued PMC match fairly well. RD

BSkerj
02-16-2010, 11:58 PM
The slings caught my attention too. As a mt biker and trail runner it would be perfect for my Savager 24 20g X 30/30. I want.

By the way, don't tell anyone the Lawnjockey likes exercise, it would spoil my image and my kind are supposed to be lazy too.

Jocko

When I skied with a few of the National Guard teams a couple years back I got a kick out of thier racing suits...nice lycra.... with a big patch of leather covering thier lower backs to keep the rifle from shaffing them as they skied. To watch them pull up and fire was almost poetry in motion.

HORNET
02-17-2010, 08:31 AM
I have seen a couple of the Izmash (sp?) Biathlon rifles around. Seem to be based on a Rooskie version of the T-bolt. Don't know how well they shoot but probably cost enough less than the Anshutz that you could rebarrel for a reasonable total cost.

gnoahhh
02-17-2010, 09:46 AM
A close buddy and former co-worker was on the Army Biathlon team back in the late 80's/early 90's. He doesn't shoot anymore, but can still do the heart rate slowing routine. Amazing to watch him do it. He said his old Anshutz favored Tenex, so that is what he fired tens of thousands of in practice. Of course, you and I were paying for it...

Doc Highwall
02-17-2010, 10:08 AM
You can tune the rifle to ammo with a barrel turner but then you will be trying other ammo to see what it will do just like cast boolits.

OutHuntn84
02-17-2010, 10:30 AM
How would ya like to use one of those for hunt'n tree rats. I think I'll stick with my po'boy 22.

BruceB
02-17-2010, 11:23 AM
Pure accuracy is nice to have, and Anschutz and similar-quality rifles are all well and good. The adaptations made to the rifles for the Biathlon game are also ingenious and interesting.

However, the plain truth of the matter is that extreme accuracy is not required. Look at the size of those targets. The "figure of merit" needed to hit those discs is pretty danged large. Tenex and other extreme-cost ammunition is a waste of money for this game, in my experience.

What everyone seems to forget is the need for reliable ammunition, and by that I mean .22 Long Rifles that WILL FIRE in cold weather, and after ignition WILL perform at least reasonably well during the barrel time.

Doing Biathlon in cold weather, and this means 20 below zero Fahrenheit or worse (sometimes MUCH worse), we had extreme difficulty in finding ammo that would perform anywhere NEAR the way it worked in weather that was just barely in the freezing range, say 20 degrees ABOVE zero or so. Even carrying the ammo inside clothing didn't help much, because the rifles were always at ambient temperature when the time came to shoot. This also didn't help the reloading time, of course. Velocities and accuracy were very erratic, and we put the stuff across the chrono screens in deep cold when researching the subject..

There are now loads on the market made specifically for Biathlon, and I imagine these will have some sort of modifications for cold-weather function. I don't know how well they work, because my time in Biathlon was quite a ways back. A .22 Long Rifle cartridge has only a miniscule priming charge and a tiny powder charge, and asking it perform well in a long and deep-frozen barrel is a daunting proposition. In Vancouver right now, cold weather isn't a problem. In more-normal winter weather, it's a real factor.

gnoahhh
02-17-2010, 05:35 PM
I beg to differ re: extreme accuracy is not required. With one's heart rate and breathing beyond normal, causing the sights to wobble, and a shot snatched off when the front sight may have swayed a little too close to the edge of the target, a 1/3MOA difference in accuracy could spell the difference between a hit or a miss.

Of course a counter-argument would be that sloppy group size could luck into a hit instead of a miss if the sight wanders off the target as the sear breaks. I'll take my chances with the most accurate ammo possible when in any competitive event, and trust to skill in the first instance and not to luck in the second.

SCIBUL
02-18-2010, 06:42 AM
Hello all !
I can't resist to post those pictures of my pre series UNIQUE T22 biathlon :
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8156/t791002.th.jpg (http://img6.imageshack.us/i/t791002.jpg/)

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3314/t791003.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/i/t791003.jpg/)

I have it since 13 years now. I really love it and shoot ot as soon as possible.

Lawnjockey
02-18-2010, 08:20 AM
Could you post some pictures showing the detail of how the harness works?

Thanks,

Jocko

BruceB
02-18-2010, 11:12 AM
[QUOTE=gnoahhh;815221] "I beg to differ re: extreme accuracy is not required. With one's heart rate and breathing beyond normal, causing the sights to wobble, and a shot snatched off when the front sight may have swayed a little too close to the edge of the target, a 1/3MOA difference in accuracy could spell the difference between a hit or a miss."


I can assure you that we were all COMPETENT riflemen and competition shooters. We were well aware of differences in accuracy among various .22 LR loads, and we tested them rigorously in our individual rifles to select the very best for each of us.

That worked just fine....until it got COLD. Then, all our previous testing went out the window. When it comes to Biathlon, a misfire (or even worse, an erratic-ignition load which fails to hit the target) means death to one's chances in that race. The time factor of getting-out a replacement round for a misfire, or worse, a miss caused by wild variation in the performance of a given round, means that the chances of success have just vanished.

That 1/3 MOA is meaningless. At 50 meters, it's 1/6 of an INCH, and at 25 meters it's 1/12 of an inch. Compared to a miss or misfire caused by poor ammo performance in the cold, you HAVE to go with the most-reliable load and forget the fantastic accuracy of the load that doesn't perform in cold conditions.

The impetus for taking-up Biathlon was the inclusion of the sport in the Arctic Winter Games, held every two years with Alaska, Yukon, and Northwest Territories competing. As usual with new endeavors, we learned a great deal very quickly, and the most-important thing we learned in this particular sport was that .22 Long Rifle ammunition needs careful testing for RELIABILITY before accuracy. Those competing entities do have some occasional experience with cold weather, REALLY cold, such as competitions held in thirty-below-zero temperatures. Rifles and ammunition can perform very differently from their warm-weather norms.

Herb in Pa
02-18-2010, 12:19 PM
[QUOTE=gnoahhh;815221] "
That worked just fine....until it got COLD. Then, all our previous testing went out the window. When it comes to Biathlon, a misfire (or even worse, an erratic-ignition load which fails to hit the target) means death to one's chances in that race. The time factor of getting-out a replacement round for a misfire, or worse, a miss caused by wild variation in the performance of a given round, means that the chances of success have just vanished.



I don't shoot Biathlon, but have done enough cold weather shooting to attest to Bruce's statement about cold weather. It definitely makes a difference in group sizes and I'm talking about using quality ammunition and damn good rifles. That's why I don't send any rimfire downrange until the weather is above 50 and even then it's problematic, 60 degrees and warmer is generally better.

Doc Highwall
02-18-2010, 12:26 PM
Herb in Pa, nice collection you have there, I notice the turner on the top rifle and the stock looks like you shoot 50/50 bench rest.

Herb in Pa
02-18-2010, 12:34 PM
Herb in Pa, nice collection you have there, I notice the turner on the top rifle and the stock looks like you shoot 50/50 bench rest.

I just play around a bit..............

From the top...........

2013 Annie
64 MPR Annie
Martini Mark III
H&R m12
54 Sporter Annie

odis
02-19-2010, 11:46 AM
The greatest biathalon of all time took place back in 1939 between the Finns & soviets, the penalty for a miss was a little different and Simo Haya won a very reddish gold medal.

gnoahhh
02-19-2010, 01:41 PM
The Winter War, when the Finn's knocked the Russian Bear back on it's heels.

odis
02-19-2010, 01:46 PM
The Winter War, when the Finn's knocked the Russian Bear back on it's heels.Simo may have been only 5'3" but he proved that Stalin had to stand on his mothers shoulders just to kiss his ass.

MT Gianni
02-20-2010, 01:32 PM
I was a range official at summer Biathlon meets for 5 years from 2000-05. US team members ran and put on a clinic after wards. In summer Biathlon the gun is left at the range, you pick it up there and leave it to shoot. Savage and Marlin were sponsors donating rifles for beginning users to shoot. Federal donated Federal Gold 22 lr also. Most of the folks competing were runners first and shooters 2nd. The intro gun for many of these was the Russian Baikal now named something else, it ran $950 in 2000. The gent at the station next to mine lived in Seeley Lake and was a former Pilot for the German AF. His job was to ferry the Biathlon team to their meets, he later married one of the athletes. I knew she was an Olympic shooter but another found out his was was a Biathelete and asked if she was "any good". His reply was classic "no, both Olympics only Bronze." It is/was a fun sport to be involved in and many runners really appreciate any shooting tips. AIRC the target was 2.5" for the prone @ 50 meters and 3.5" standing.
The slings clip to an arm band and functioned similar to a military sling.

bishopgrandpa
02-20-2010, 04:04 PM
You were surprised to see a firearm in an event on TV. Will you be surprised to know that the skeet and trap events are held before opening ceremonies and that Kim Rhode an American 17 year old took a Gold Medal some years back? That didn't make your screen. Wonder why?