best BHN for 800 to 900fps .44 and unique?

[TREERAT]

going to buy some comercial missouri bullet cast bullets, for ruger sbh .44 mag,
I will be using mag brass, 240g swc with 8g of unique or 6g red dot.
chamber throats are the right size vs bore. .4315 vs .4295
slight constriction at barrel threads
which bhn would work best 12 or 18?


buying simply because I am running out of lead and cannot get any more wheel weights around here! so I am hording it for rough times!

[lathesmith]

I'd go for the 12, and be sure and use soft lube, as that hard waxy stuff won't work very well if at all at those low velocities. At least, that's my experience, anyway....

lathesmith

[Dale53]

I get excellent accuracy with WW's + 2% tin (that's right at 12 bhn or so) with the .45 ACP (both auto and revolver), .32 S&W Long, .38 Special, .44 Special, and .45 Colt. When using the magnums at full tilt, I use a harder bullet (and 18 bhn is about perfect for my use).

As has been said here (at least a zillion times) bullet fit is KING.

FWIW
Dale53

[targetshootr]

I'd send it to Ruger for a new barrel before using any more lead. fwiw.

[RobS]

Assuming the bullet fit is good then 12 BHN option will work for what you are intending. Although 18 BHN can work very well too if everything is correct (cylinder throats001-.002 over groove diameter of barrel, bullet is fit to cylinder throats, smooth bore with no tooling marks and no tight spots in the barrel etc.) Since you have a revolver that has good cylinder throats to bore diameter then a hard cast bullet can have advantages over a softer bullet as the fast powders accelerate the bullet very abruptly vs slower powders so a bullet can actually skid upon entering the rifling of the barrel. The best way to find out though is to try both and to see what your gun likes best.

The big thing is to have the bullets sized to .431 if at all possible.

[MtGun44]

Soft is fine, like 10-14 BHN or even lower if your fit is good. Soft lube, lots of it like
a Keith design. Some designs are just short on lube capacity.

Bill

[KYCaster]

Ask the vendor what he recommends then if it doesn't work it should be easy to get him to exchange for the other alloy.

Personally I'd lean toward the harder alloy. Either will work for your application but the 18 BHN will give you the option of higher velocity/pressure if you decide you want to do that.

Barrel/cylinder dimensions of my SRH are very close to yours and I've been very pleased with the Magma 240 SWC BB, cast of 92-6-2 alloy and lubed with Thompson's Blue Angel. Not often the best boolit at any particular load level, but very consistent with a variety of powders from 800 to 1400 FPS.

Jerry

[RobS]

I'd send it to Ruger for a new barrel before using any more lead. fwiw.

Why would you do this? A slight barrel constriction is easily fire lapped out or if you have a bit of knowledge and reason even hand lapping will take care of the constriction. Even left alone it may be just fine as well; shoot it to see.........if it works then it is not broken.

[Lloyd Smale]

lap out your barrel and id about bet a bullet around 16-18bhn will do the best and its added advantage is its hard enough to be pushed right up to top velocitys. With that barrel constriction its a **** shoot as to what will shoot well in it.

[Bass Ackward]

I will be using mag brass, 240g swc with 8g of unique or 6g red dot.

buying simply because I am running out of lead and cannot get any more wheel weights around here! so I am hording it for rough times!



Too many variables. I'd say to get the vendors to send you small quantities of both until the gun decides for you.

[RobS]

Too many variables. I'd say to get the vendors to send you small quantities of both until the gun decides for you.

+1 on this

[targetshootr]

Why would you do this? A slight barrel constriction is easily fire lapped out or if you have a bit of knowledge and reason even hand lapping will take care of the constriction. Even left alone it may be just fine as well; shoot it to see.........if it works then it is not broken.

I don't believe I could get all of a constriction out no matter how slight it is. Besides, it's a defect Ruger will fix for free.

[HammerMTB]

Use the softer boos
I cast a lot for my .44, and thought at first I needed a hard boolit.
The longer I experimented, the more I found I didn't.
I use 50/50 WW/Pb now for loads up to around 1000 FPS. That makes best use of the alloy and supplys I have on hand.
I got some commercial cast (Speer) 240 SWCs that were pure lead. Thought they'd never work. Loaded them to a shy 1000 FPS as plinker loads. Y'know, they worked just fine.
As was said, boolit fit is king. If you keep it from gas cutting, and provide some reasonable amount of lube, you can shoot a very soft boolit without leading.

[44man]

Use the softer boos
I cast a lot for my .44, and thought at first I needed a hard boolit.
The longer I experimented, the more I found I didn't.
I use 50/50 WW/Pb now for loads up to around 1000 FPS. That makes best use of the alloy and supplys I have on hand.
I got some commercial cast (Speer) 240 SWCs that were pure lead. Thought they'd never work. Loaded them to a shy 1000 FPS as plinker loads. Y'know, they worked just fine.
As was said, boolit fit is king. If you keep it from gas cutting, and provide some reasonable amount of lube, you can shoot a very soft boolit without leading.
Yes you can--sure-- but then accuracy is a different thing then going bang, isn't it?
Two different animals, stopping leading and stopping leading AND having accuracy.
My definition of accuracy in a revolver is 1" or LESS at 50 yards so PLEASE, show us how fine your soft boolits shoot by showing 50 yard group pictures.
Not getting down on you but we need to define what fine is.
To just prevent lead buildup does not make a gun a shooter.

[Bass Ackward]

My definition of accuracy in a revolver is 1" or LESS at 50 yards so PLEASE, show us how fine your soft boolits shoot by showing 50 yard group pictures.


Dear Accuracy Sheriff, (:grin:)

It might interest folks to know that with soft bullet's, Elmer definition of accuracy was for any accurate revolver was to achieve 1" at 50 yards. That was a gun standard with open sights. Not a people one.

It's always great to understand what is possible in this world. But anyone who claims to achieve that standard with open sights on a regular basis is in the top 1% of handgunners if I put it diplomatically.

See this is the controversy. The "world's" definition of a handgun, as identified by history, is a platform for instinctive shooting purposes. (self defense or snap shooting) Altering that definition to alter the purpose of a handgun itself may never come about but for a few individuals.

It is kinda like making Indy competition vehicles out of production automobiles in a way. Not that a Model A is scientifically or physically prevented from achieving those speeds, but it is not the chosen platform for that .... requirement.

If people followed your discipline to the letter, and I have myself at times from as far back as the 60s, then it is doubted that more than 5% of the population could achieve those accuracy standards. Bagging an open sighted, 4" revolver at 100 yards was (and still is if you push my opinion) ludicrous.

That was why I quit posting rifle accuracy myself, because to define it (by my results or standards) alienated those not achieving that standard. And it didn't mean their standard wasn't useful to them.

[RobS]

Bass Ackward:

Good point on others feelings toward accuracy and what it is deemed accurate to them, but when you refer to Elmer Keith and his revolvers and soft lead there is one point that I want to bring to the equation. His revolvers were built for him by some of the best makers of the time and we all know that even at todays standards and practices his guns are still today likely to be of a better finish than what most of us can purchase (Freedom Arms as an exception). Think of it like shooting the best of the best; a prestine barrel and high tolerances put in place hell he could have had great accuracy with a bullet made of mud behind his 2400 loads. :mrgreen: I have taken my revolvers and worked on them and made them my own so to speak by lapping barrels correcting cylinder throats etc in order to make them more consistent from forcing cone to the end of the muzzle and no matter how good my guns are whey will never be as nice as Elmers.

I will never tell anyone that a soft bullet is better or a hard bullet is better, but I will give my own experiences of both and then allow others to make a decision on my results. It won't hurt to try both a hard or a soft bullet as long as a person can find what works for them and their guns and find whatever accuracy they consider to be of their needs.

I see that many people have debates and confrontation if you will about this bullet hardness topic.................I am for one a person who uses both hard and soft bullets and see the justification to both sides of the story.

[44man]

Bass Ackward:

Good point on others feelings toward accuracy and what it is deemed accurate to them, but when you refer to Elmer Keith and his revolvers and soft lead there is one point that I want to bring to the equation. His revolvers were built for him by some of the best makers of the time and we all know that even at todays standards and practices his guns are still today likely to be of a better finish than what most of us can purchase (Freedom Arms as an exception). Think of it like shooting the best of the best; a prestine barrel and high tolerances put in place hell he could have had great accuracy with a bullet made of mud behind his 2400 loads. :mrgreen: I have taken my revolvers and worked on them and made them my own so to speak by lapping barrels correcting cylinder throats etc in order to make them more consistent from forcing cone to the end of the muzzle and no matter how good my guns are whey will never be as nice as Elmers.

I will never tell anyone that a soft bullet is better or a hard bullet is better, but I will give my own experiences of both and then allow others to make a decision on my results. It won't hurt to try both a hard or a soft bullet as long as a person can find what works for them and their guns and find whatever accuracy they consider to be of their needs.

I see that many people have debates and confrontation if you will about this bullet hardness topic.................I am for one a person who uses both hard and soft bullets and see the justification to both sides of the story.
That has been what I have been saying all along and you are correct.
I do not push hard boolits unless they are needed but I will never push soft that fails either. This is where Bass and I part ways. To promote soft only is a mistake and to promote only hard is also a mistake. Only by seeing recovered boolits and showing targets will be the only proof.
Bass brought up one of the gun writers and the MOA revolver. I have that somewhere but can't find it. Thousands were spent on the gun, special barrel, etc. Then I am almost 100% sure that cast boolits were not used to finally get a 1" group at 100.
Funny that my friends come and shoot my loads and they actually out shoot me with their out of box, cheap revolvers. I watched Bioman shoot one, one half inch group after another at 50 yards with a brand new Ruger hunter and a cast boolit. Whitworth bangs little plastic bottles out to 100 yards off hand with my loads.
Bass talks a lot of sense on one post then talks in circles the next so no one can understand what he is saying. As much as I like and respect him, he baffles the heck out of me.
I show and tell everything I can and I wish Bass would get his camera out and go toe to toe with me. I have posted so many pictures I have to delete them on a regular basis because I run out of space. Yet we all need proof of what is said from others too.
I have Elmer's books, read all of his articles and I can not find where he ever said 1" at 50 yards was what he looked for. I do not think it could be obtained in those days except by luck.
C'mon Bass, I threw the towel in the ring, it is now up to you. I am not afraid and will show every failure and every success.

[Lloyd Smale]

i too have never read Elmer claiming to shoot one inch at 50 yards let alone claiming that was his standard. I shoot as much handgun as anyone here and own at least as many differnt ones and in my experince in a well made gun that has proper tolarances harder will definately outshoot softer as 44 man has said. My eyes wont allow one inch at 25 let alone one inch at 50 anymore but it doesnt change the facts when comparing group sizes. In my experince its a rare occurance that a softer alloy outshoots a harder one when everything else is right and that goes at any velocity level. It amazes me so many believe that myth. If it was fact why does a jacketed bullet that is about allways sized at 452 and is much harder then any cast bullet shoot so well in guns that even have sloppy tolarances. Now i wont argue that a guy can get exceptable accuracy with softer lead but I will almost allways find a pet load for a gun using a bhn of a least 15.

[sixshot]

I've never heard of Elmer claiming 1" groups at 50 yds being a "standard", I don't think he had any goals along those lines, he did know the difference between accurate & not accurate. Not sure why those hand fitted guns back then wouldn't have been capable of fine accuracy.
We always seem to get hung up on "hard" or "soft" bullets, with few explanations of what either is. The 16bhn that Lloyds mentions should handle anything reasonable in a sixgun. I think the clincher is always what we call soft. I'm not much on punching paper but we all have to do it at times to see what the gun/load is capable of, I much prefer the reclining position for everyday shooting, whether at 50 yds or 500 yds.
The velocities mentioned 800-1000 fps can be very accurate with something softner than 16 bhn if bullet fit & lube are correct. For me the real factor is vision, with old eyes the accuracy at 50 yds with iron sights is very difficult, I use a scope from time to time but much prefer iron sights. Anyone want to trade eyes!
I just received a new Ruger 327 magnum, my son hasn't worked the trigger yet & it feels like a jackhammer but once he does that, and narrows the front sight I think it will shoot. This is a 25 yd group in 20 degree weather a few days ago. The alloy with both loads is straight WW, probably 10-12, I check it from time to time but don't really care about the hardness, accuracy is all that matters.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_2288.jpg

This is a 50 yd group with my 357 maxie with a red dot on top, the gun & load shoot great but not sure the red dot will stay on it. I've taken a few deer with it, all with iron sights. This was the first target after installing the red dot. It does show the gun is capable of fine accuracy.......if you can see! Took 4 sighter shots to get in the black.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/6shot_01/100_2289.jpg

Dick

[HammerMTB]

Yes you can--sure-- but then accuracy is a different thing then going bang, isn't it?
Two different animals, stopping leading and stopping leading AND having accuracy.
My definition of accuracy in a revolver is 1" or LESS at 50 yards so PLEASE, show us how fine your soft boolits shoot by showing 50 yard group pictures.
Not getting down on you but we need to define what fine is.
To just prevent lead buildup does not make a gun a shooter.

I think this is at least the third time, if not more, that you have "challenged" me to show you targets.
Evidently you are quite insecure, both in yourself and in your position here on the board.
Otherwise why would you even bother with such a lowly one as I.
First, you can define accuracy any way you want. I'm not going to play your game. I find setting a gun on bags and slowly making 3-shot groups boring as all he||
So, to reply to your challenge, I will give you a challenge.
Instead of your usual 3-shot groups, show 10 shot groups.
Show 10 of those groups together as an aggregate.
Put some proof to the claim of 50 yards or whatever yardage you choose.
And bring some witnesses, or photographic demonstration of your claims.
See, it's real easy to challenge someone else.
But it's not as easy to come to someone else's party.
You define accuracy any old way you want.
It was never a part of the OP's question.
I answered his question.
You picked on me and my answer.
Have a nice day! [smilie=s:

[Edubya]

going to buy some comercial missouri bullet cast bullets, for ruger sbh .44 mag,
I will be using mag brass, 240g swc with 8g of unique or 6g red dot.
chamber throats are the right size vs bore. .4315 vs .4295
slight constriction at barrel threads
which bhn would work best 12 or 18?


buying simply because I am running out of lead and cannot get any more wheel weights around here! so I am hording it for rough times!

I don't think that 8 gr will get you to over 1,000 FPS. If you want a boolit to go 1,000 FPS, I can send you some to try. They'll be around 12 BHN though.
Don't expect them to meet the standards of 1" MOA unless you can do that with your commercial Bullets.
I have .44 Boolits from 212-270 GR that I'm not able to get that kind of MOA. I've run them from 9-29 BHN and ain't seen it inside of 3 MOA! I accept the responsibility. "The buck stops here!"
EW

[MtGun44]

OK, here are a couple of 50 yd groups. One with range scrap at about 11 BHN and one
water dropped 50-50 lino-lead at about 23BHN, IIRC, but very much harder for sure.

This is about what I get at 50 yds with this 629.

I can't see where the harder alloy gets me a thing at 1370 fps or so, so I
don't bother any more.

19937

19938

Personally I have no use for GCs and little need for anything harder than
about 10-12 BHN in magnum revolvers, both .44 and .357 at full power. I have little
need for more than 1.5" groups at 50 yds with a handgun because I cannot do
this in the field from field positions, so making a big effort to get to 1" from 1.5"
seems like a waste of time to me. You may think it is a great thing to spend time
on, and more powr to you. Maybe you can hit that well from field positions, if so,
I'm impressed. I can't.

YMMV. There is NOT one answer to this question, or one route to accuracy,
power and no leading.

OH, this was done in the effort to work up a load that I used on that warthog in my
avatar, and that is the particular 629 in that picture. I used the range scrap boolit
over Elmer's 20-2400 for old times sake and got a one-shot kill at 75 yds on that
warthog, and one other a couple days later. 20-2400 shot the same as 23 H110
so I took the 'sentimental favorite' to Africa. My PH bought the remaining 45 rounds
(3 to check the scope, 2 shots at game) for his father's Contender. He hunts bush
pigs (different than warthogs) for meat and the PH was impressed with the accuracy
and the penetration of the Keith 250s.

Bill

[TREERAT]

when I asked the question I was wondering which bhn would be best for the fast hit that unique has in this velocity range as far as leading and using the crayon lube that comes on the bullets.

as for my accuracy requrement, as long as I can shoot as many as I want and stay on a 9 inch paper plate at 50 yards standing with no rest a hand gun will do any thing I ever expect of it! it also must keep every shot on the 9 inch plate at 100 yards with my hands resting on the shooting bench.

as far as I am concerned better groups are realy not needed but do help with confidence and bragging rights, adding confidence in myself and my tools is always good, but bragging rights I couldnt care less about. I learned along time ago that no matter how good you are at something, someone out there can do it better or faster. so I set my own goals and not worry about theres, I am much happier this way!

[Lloyd Smale]

Alot of it for me is time. It is easier to find an accurate load for a gun using harder lead and using gas checked bullets. Not that a plain base or softer lead bullet wont do it but you will usually do alot of searching to find just the right powder, primer, bullet,alloy ect combo to get it. Ive got just to many handguns to spend a whole summer fooling with sitting on a bench with one of them.

[44man]

I think this is at least the third time, if not more, that you have "challenged" me to show you targets.
Evidently you are quite insecure, both in yourself and in your position here on the board.
Otherwise why would you even bother with such a lowly one as I.
First, you can define accuracy any way you want. I'm not going to play your game. I find setting a gun on bags and slowly making 3-shot groups boring as all he||
So, to reply to your challenge, I will give you a challenge.
Instead of your usual 3-shot groups, show 10 shot groups.
Show 10 of those groups together as an aggregate.
Put some proof to the claim of 50 yards or whatever yardage you choose.
And bring some witnesses, or photographic demonstration of your claims.
See, it's real easy to challenge someone else.
But it's not as easy to come to someone else's party.
You define accuracy any old way you want.
It was never a part of the OP's question.
I answered his question.
You picked on me and my answer.
Have a nice day! [smilie=s:
No, I never remember picking on you! I don't pick on anyone. But I am a firm believer in showing things and everyone else should too. I feel it is very important to prove any point.
Mtgun has done a great job and I applaud him. He shows some nice groups along with explanations. Is that so hard?
There is too much to learn to think I do nothing but challange, I just want to see if what guys claim has merit.
Like soft lead that needs looked into. Take a 30 to 1 mix, or 20 to1 and get failure, but has anyone worked with 16 to 1 to find that the alloy is bound together enough to shoot very good? Is there a comparison to show?

[RobS]

when I asked the question I was wondering which bhn would be best for the fast hit that unique has in this velocity range as far as leading and using the crayon lube that comes on the bullets.
!

An option for the crayon lube that often comes with a commercial cast is to use some Lee Alox or Lars45 Xlox lube and tumble them before loading. This has helped many people who have had the acquaintance with poor lube from commercial bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

when I asked the question I was wondering which bhn would be best for the fast hit that unique has in this velocity range as far as leading and using the crayon lube that comes on the bullets.

as for my accuracy requrement, as long as I can shoot as many as I want and stay on a 9 inch paper plate at 50 yards standing with no rest a hand gun will do any thing I ever expect of it! it also must keep every shot on the 9 inch plate at 100 yards with my hands resting on the shooting bench.

as far as I am concerned better groups are realy not needed but do help with confidence and bragging rights, adding confidence in myself and my tools is always good, but bragging rights I couldnt care less about. I learned along time ago that no matter how good you are at something, someone out there can do it better or faster. so I set my own goals and not worry about theres, I am much happier this way!

I shoot a lot of 429421s or their equivelent GB and RCBS designs ove 9 gr of Unique and the Lee 240 TL over 5 gr Bullseye. Those are vairly close to what you ask. For such loads I use a softer alloy of range lead or WWs +2% tin. These always give me the best accuracy with no leading (if the right lube is used) vs a hard cast bullet.

Thus I would recommend the 12 BHN bullets for the loads you are contemplating. If you want magnum level loads then the harder BHN is probably going to be better although up through 1350 fps I also, as 44man does, have gotten excellent accuracy with WW + 2 % tin at about 12 BHN. Instead of arguing over which BHN is "best" we should look seriously at matching the alloy to the job at hand. In this case my opinion is the softer alloy is the better match.

I also would suggest you order the bullets unsized and unlubed if the vender will do that. You can then use a good lube for lower level velocities instead of the hard wax "crayon" stuff that likely will give you leading problems. If the vender won't send them unlubed then simply tumble them in LLA or better yet wash the hard wax lube off and relube with a good 50/50 alox/beeswax lube like Javelina or Lars BAC. I put commercial lubed bullets in a coffee can and cover them with Coleman fuel. After 30-40 minutes the lube washes off rather easily, the bullets towel dry quickly and can be relubed.

Larry Gibson

[HammerMTB]

No, I never remember picking on you! I don't pick on anyone. But I am a firm believer in showing things and everyone else should too. I feel it is very important to prove any point.
Mtgun has done a great job and I applaud him. He shows some nice groups along with explanations. Is that so hard?
There is too much to learn to think I do nothing but challange, I just want to see if what guys claim has merit.
Like soft lead that needs looked into. Take a 30 to 1 mix, or 20 to1 and get failure, but has anyone worked with 16 to 1 to find that the alloy is bound together enough to shoot very good? Is there a comparison to show?

I don't doubt you don't remember, but I do.
As far as whether "picked on" or "challenged" we're nit-picking words. The idea is there, and yes, it has happened- repeatedly.
Your challenge was unreasonable, as was mine. We both know you or anyone won't put 100 boolits into 1 inch @ 50 yards. It's not even a regular event to put 3 into an inch @ 50 yards.
The OP's question was pretty clear, and my answer applied to that. Soft lead will shoot @ under 1000 FPS, and even do it without leading and reasonable accuracy. I've done it.
You'd like to argue that won't work in extremes. I'll agree. But that was not the question, now was it?
As far as experimenting with any alloy, you know how as well as anyone. Go give it a try.
I work at an engineering and research firm. We do experiments all the time that have been done before. We do them so we have results that apply in our own circumstances, and with our own materials.

It's real easy to pick at someone else's statement or work. If ya wanna pick, show yer own work and targets. I generally shoot mine fulla holes and throw them away.
I respect your skill and experience base.
However, my notion of what I want to do with a handgun seems to vary considerably with yours. That's no bother to me, I just won't be using your standards to meet my goals.
If ya wanna get out of your comfort zone, come shoot some bowling pins with me sometime. Use yer .44 and them full house loads. They'll be plenty accurate, but you won't win many rounds with 'em.
My only point is that there are a lot of things you can do with a tool. Ever'body doesn't do the same thing.

[ole 5 hole group]

As not to hi-jack the thread I’ll just say I’ve only shot cast bullets out of a 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 44 magnum, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 454 Casull and various 50 caliber revolvers with cast bullets having a BHN from a low of 14 to a high of 22 and they all shot well with the right powder and powder weight. I can also make any of them shoot rather poorly with the wrong powder or powder weight (I suppose I could throw in there my sloppy gun handling too). A lot of shooters here have given excellent opinions based on their experience, so all it will take for TreeRat to determine which one works for him is some trigger time.

As for accuracy – we should really have a separate thread for this and get down to brass tacks. Bass Ackward made some great points in his post. I shot 2700 for several years and way back then when we walked to school uphill both ways - we were not allowed to shoot with optics – just plain ole iron sights having a sight radius of less than 10 inches. The bullseye was something like 3.3 inches at both 50 yards and 25 yards. Back then and even today no one in the world has ever shot a perfect 2700 score. Today the sissies (just kidding guys, as I’ll be going to a red dot soon enough) can shoot red dots or scopes and no one in the world has ever shot a 2700 score. Back in 1974 an Army marksman by the last name of Anderson shot 2680 – 159X to set the national/world record that still stands. Cleaning the 25 yard target was easy enough but keeping 10 shots within 3.3 inches at 50 yards was extremely difficult – at least for me and everyone that I knew shooting 2700. My point being - that if we have people here who have both the revolver, ammunition and the skill to keep all their shots within a 1 inch group at 50 yards – you better head to Camp Perry and show those boys how it’s done.

[44man]

I see a few take me wrong--again. I do shoot many 1" groups at 100 with a few of my revolvers and I do hate over 1" at 50, but that is from sandbags or Creedmore and only to prove loads and work loads. I could not shoot 1" at 50 off hand if my life depended on it! :mrgreen:
My game is accuracy from the revolver, aside from hunting with them. I have devoted over 56 years to the revolver to find what makes them tick. I know what does not work and what does and if I wrote down every experiment the book would be a foot thick and prove nothing because 95% would be useless tests that did not pan out. A failure is tossed, never to be visited again.
My challenge was never to shoot against my guns or me. My challenge has always been that if you find something that works, show us.
Sixshot did, and did very well too. That is all I ask, don't hide. :violin:
If advancing cast boolit accuracy is so bad, why are some of you here? If you are happy with 6" at 50 yards or 2" at 25, how can you help by answering questions?
I don't challenge you to shoot, only to load better and learn more so you can pass on what you find. Stagnation is like going to work every day.
I know, I rub some the wrong way and they do not believe me but that is not my failing, it is yours because I post every single thing and all are free to disagree with me, but just show where I am wrong before making that claim without proof.
I can't make anyone a better shot, I can't even make myself a better shot but I do know the revolver and everyone here can take it or leave it.
Anyway, if you can't post a few pictures to show something works or if it doesn't work, how can anyone believe what you say?
I know many do not believe me so all are invited to come and shoot. I will not shoot against you but I will show you how to get more from your revolver, then you might just out shoot me and I hope you do.
Nobody is happy just hitting a pie plate at 50 yards from a rest, don't tell me you are! :drinks: If that were true, there would not be a great site like cast boolits and there would never be a question asked.
Stop bringing up other people like Bob Munden, etc. None of us can shoot like them but I assure you they know what their guns shoot and I wish they were here to help all the rest of us.
You would NEVER call them liars.

[TREERAT]

alot of good reading, and discussion and recomendations. but I still beleive many missed my intention.
you get a commercial bullet of propper size, BUT NOT the best lube-
from 7.5 to 9 grains of unique-
240g swc in mag brass-
you do not get to relube or tumblelube-
you do not get to use a more appropriate powder-
you do not get to use a different weight or shape bullet-
your ONLY CHOICE is 12 or 18 bhn-

well I know the answer: try some of each and decide for myself!!!!

I DO NOT want to sound rude, but every time someone ask for a short answer, in any forum I have ever been in, it always turns into something like this. I KNOW that many are very sincere in trying to help with recomendations which is the idea behind sights like this. but sometimes I think people do not read the question, or are in such a hurry that they skim through thinking the already know what is being asked. or simply a comprehension problem!
any way, thanks for letting me vent and get that out! I will play nice now!

[ole 5 hole group]

44Man – you’re getting a little paranoid in your “golden years”. I apologize to you for making it sound that way. I thought a little before I hit the submit button, but not enough obviously. I was thinking some members/guests reading different posts on this forum might come to the conclusion that some can shoot tiny groups all day long with the right load. I just wanted to point out in my warped sense of humor that shooting damn good groups at 50 yards doesn’t mean consistent 1” groups. I think I can shoot a good group every now & then, as you all can but to hunker down and put 5 or 10 shots in a bug hole with a revolver is extremely difficult under the best of circumstances. To me an accurate revolver is one that can shoot a 2” 10-shot group at 50 yards. A pretty good shooter will have a problem shooting a 5 or 10 shot 2” group on demand but as long as he can call his shots at 50 or 100 yards he’s got a real fine revolver & load. When the revolver starts its recoil and you can call a 7 o’clock 8 or a 3 o’clock 9 etc – you have a keeper, both with the revolver & load. If you have enough trigger time in, you can call your shots and if you’re currently a high volume shooter with years of quality trigger time, then not only can you call your shots but you can keep most rounds in a nice group off hand or from a rest. I think many years ago you (44Man) were able to do this. I never took a picture of a shot group before last year when Frank asked to see some pictures of groups shot from a 50 caliber at 50 yards. Always considered taking pictures of shot groups as “unnatural”, as who brings a camera. I now bring home a couple “average” targets for picture taking. I posted a couple groups on the 454 thread shot last weekend with a 2X scope rested at 25 yards. That 2X scope doesn’t do anything for me, as I think I need at least a 4X at 25 yards – anyway, I couldn’t keep 5 shots in a ragged hole – sometimes 4 shots went nicely but usually 3 were in and 2 out. Average group for the day would be a hair over 1” at 25 yards. I firmly believe the BFR is a half inch shooter at 25 yards and I should be able to do a 1” group at 50 yards for 5 shots if the stars line up right with a scope set on 6X or 8X and I don’t mishandle the revolver. I don’t expect to shoot many 1” or smaller groups benched with a scope but I’ll know the load that will be capable of doing it with my revolver, as I normally will be able to call my “bad” shots when the group opens up to a 6 or 12 inch group – and believe me, shooting a large group isn’t difficult at all.

[44man]

alot of good reading, and discussion and recomendations. but I still beleive many missed my intention.
you get a commercial bullet of propper size, BUT NOT the best lube-
from 7.5 to 9 grains of unique-
240g swc in mag brass-
you do not get to relube or tumblelube-
you do not get to use a more appropriate powder-
you do not get to use a different weight or shape bullet-
your ONLY CHOICE is 12 or 18 bhn-

well I know the answer: try some of each and decide for myself!!!!

I DO NOT want to sound rude, but every time someone ask for a short answer, in any forum I have ever been in, it always turns into something like this. I KNOW that many are very sincere in trying to help with recomendations which is the idea behind sights like this. but sometimes I think people do not read the question, or are in such a hurry that they skim through thinking the already know what is being asked. or simply a comprehension problem!
any way, thanks for letting me vent and get that out! I will play nice now!
No need to be nice---HIT BACK! All of us have different opinions and I think you have some answers to work with.
Your problem will be commercial boolits that may or may not work for you.
Yes, every post will stray but if you really read all of them you learn more. I never skim but my posts are, looking for those little things to jump on. :coffee:
What I see is you need to join the silver stream and make your own boolits and lube. Only then will you be happy.
Yes, you can take off the bad lube and put better on your boolits, don't get so restricted.
And why is powder choice restricted? If it is, you can work around it.

[HammerMTB]

Nobody is happy just hitting a pie plate at 50 yards from a rest, don't tell me you are! :drinks: If that were true, there would not be a great site like cast boolits and there would never be a question asked.


I wonder a bit where to start, but let's start here:
You have a focus like very few on ultimate accuracy. I will suggest that you make a false assumption; that is, that everyone else does too.
I can think of a number of reasons folk come here to visit the site and many stay for years
Here are but a few:
1. A desire to learn how to cast boolits
2. Want to learn about different alloys
3. Want to learn about different lubes
4. Want to learn about different boolit shapes and their in-flight and terminal ballistics
5. Want to find out if they can shoot cast in their pistol- Glocks come to mind first, but many newer pistols have polygonal rifling.
6. Want to ask about pet loads
7. Want to find others with similar interests

This is JMHO, but ultimate accuracy is only one of many reasons to apply one's self to pistol shooting, and cast boos.
To think everyone here must be interested in ONLY MY interest would be, well, very arrogant of me, don't you think?

Now allow me to talk about some other ideas that don't really pass the test of careful examination;


I know what does not work and what does and if I wrote down every experiment the book would be a foot thick and prove nothing because 95% would be useless tests that did not pan out.

While Tom Edison was inventing the light bulb, a reporter asked him how many materials he had tried that failed. He said about a thousand. The reporter said, don't you feel bad with all those failures? Tom's reply was, no, I know a thousand things that won't work now!
Tests that don't end in your hoped for result are very good for learning. You know something that doesn't work. If you are careful to record your experiment, you may find later that some small detail of your test was a variable that you didn't take into account at the time. Those things ARE valuable! If for nothing else, if they are carefully documented, someone else can learn what doesn't work.



If advancing cast boolit accuracy is so bad, why are some of you here? If you are happy with 6" at 50 yards or 2" at 25, how can you help by answering questions?


Could it be that some answer questions in their own field of interest? Look up at the OP's original question, and several replys. He hasn't expressed interest in tiny groups. More what I'd call under 100 yard hunting accuracy. I can certainly understand that. It's all I'm really interested in when it comes to accuracy.



Anyway, if you can't post a few pictures to show something works or if it doesn't work, how can anyone believe what you say?


If you don't wanna believe what I say, then don't. It's really nothing to me if you do or not.
This is the internet. Ever heard the breakroom expression, "The first liar never has a chance"
Someone can come here and say anything. Then some photographic evidence can be "created" to support the statement. I thought about demonstrating this by taking a pic of myself, holding a mirror, looking at my SRH over my shoulder. Then showing a target, neat cloverleaf cut in it, and a pic of the target back, 600 yards distant. What is proved? Nothing, really. It takes verification by independent witnesses. It takes a repeatable task. I doubt 1" groups @ 50 yards is a repeatable task on every occasion.

So I'll sum up with a story from today's cap-bustin' time at the pit. I had some of those soft lead Speer boos I mentioned earlier. It gets even worse. They were SWC's. I know you think SWC's can't possibly perform. It gets even worse. I was using 7.7 gr of AA#5, as you know a fairly fast powder.
It "should" lead.
It "should" be inaccurate.
I'm surprised the boos didn't turn around and shoot me they "should" be so terrible.
But I picked out a light spot on the quarry wall about 100 yards away. no paper target, just a spot on which to focus.
I put 12 shots on that spot on the quarry wall. The lead smear prolly covered 8"
Now, you can scoff all you want. Some can do better. That's not my question or my point. The load did what I wanted of it, and did it well. It is within the parameters that the OP was looking for. It was fun and easy to shoot. You could shoot those all day and not get flinchy.

Take it for what it's worth. There was another Cast Boolits member there.
We had a good time shootin' [smilie=1:
That's all that was intended.... :drinks:

[Edubya]

alot of good reading, and discussion and recomendations. but I still beleive many missed my intention.
you get a commercial bullet of propper size, BUT NOT the best lube-
from 7.5 to 9 grains of unique-
240g swc in mag brass-
you do not get to relube or tumblelube-
you do not get to use a more appropriate powder-
you do not get to use a different weight or shape bullet-
your ONLY CHOICE is 12 or 18 bhn-

well I know the answer: try some of each and decide for myself!!!!

I DO NOT want to sound rude, but every time someone ask for a short answer, in any forum I have ever been in, it always turns into something like this. I KNOW that many are very sincere in trying to help with recomendations which is the idea behind sights like this. but sometimes I think people do not read the question, or are in such a hurry that they skim through thinking the already know what is being asked. or simply a comprehension problem!
any way, thanks for letting me vent and get that out! I will play nice now!
Well, he (that wants to write about what He has accomplished) has hi-jacked another thread, but back to your initial questions: Do you not want to to change lube or cannot re-lube? Why would you not want to use a more appropiate powder? Why can I not desire a different weight?
Okay,:kidding: Now, at less than 1,000 FPS I'm gonna go with 12 BHN. I would normally go with an even lower BHN but I would know the gun and boolit before I made that determination. I love my slow boolits at 9-10 BHN.
I have a little problem with carpel-tunnel-syndrome and don't shoot as much, especially in my .44 Mag any more, but I use to love 1,300 and would alloy them to Lyman #2 for good measures. Wished that I could turn the clock back.
EW

[S.R.Custom]

To address the original poster's question:

(1) At 800-900 fps, just about any alloy will work with satisfying results.

(2)Crayon lube may be an issue, however. Depends on whether the MFR used quality Crayola crayons or the cheaper store brand crayons. Personally, whenever I use commercial cast bullets, I put on a light coating of Tumble Lube first. (50/50 mix of LLA & mineral spirits). This has eliminated crayon lube related leading in every gun I've shot them in.

[toydoc]

going to buy some comercial missouri bullet cast bullets, for ruger sbh .44 mag,
I will be using mag brass, 240g swc with 8g of unique or 6g red dot.
chamber throats are the right size vs bore. .4315 vs .4295
slight constriction at barrel threads
which bhn would work best 12 or 18?


buying simply because I am running out of lead and cannot get any more wheel weights around here! so I am hording it for rough times!

There is a technical section on the web site that explains the selection of hardness that is used for their bullets. Their bullet casting alloy seems to be good stuff.

[RobS]

alot of good reading, and discussion and recomendations. but I still beleive many missed my intention.
you get a commercial bullet of propper size, BUT NOT the best lube-
from 7.5 to 9 grains of unique-
240g swc in mag brass-
you do not get to relube or tumblelube-
you do not get to use a more appropriate powder-
you do not get to use a different weight or shape bullet-
your ONLY CHOICE is 12 or 18 bhn-

well I know the answer: try some of each and decide for myself!!!!

I DO NOT want to sound rude, but every time someone ask for a short answer, in any forum I have ever been in, it always turns into something like this. I KNOW that many are very sincere in trying to help with recomendations which is the idea behind sights like this. but sometimes I think people do not read the question, or are in such a hurry that they skim through thinking the already know what is being asked. or simply a comprehension problem!
any way, thanks for letting me vent and get that out! I will play nice now!

WOW..........Let's try again then..............How is this.............12 BHN because with Unique you will only be producing around 15,000 to 20,000 CUP at the targeted 800 to 900 fps you desire which could work for your intended application.

Now there is an answer which would have developed nothing regarding the nature to learn, but would have supplemented you with what you wanted which would have been a bunch of people with an answer and no real support for it. If this is what you intended a simple thread with a poll would have sufficed.

Sorry the rest of us did not get you!!!

[Bass Ackward]

alot of good reading, and discussion and recomendations. but I still beleive many missed my intention.
you get a commercial bullet of propper size, BUT NOT the best lube-
from 7.5 to 9 grains of unique-
240g swc in mag brass-
you do not get to relube or tumblelube-
you do not get to use a more appropriate powder-
you do not get to use a different weight or shape bullet-
your ONLY CHOICE is 12 or 18 bhn-

well I know the answer: try some of each and decide for myself!!!!

I DO NOT want to sound rude, but every time someone ask for a short answer, in any forum I have ever been in, it always turns into something like this. I KNOW that many are very sincere in trying to help with recommendations which is the idea behind sights like this. but sometimes I think people do not read the question, or are in such a hurry that they skim through thinking the already know what is being asked. or simply a comprehension problem!
any way, thanks for letting me vent and get that out! I will play nice now!


The reality is that we don't know the gun. Some will shoot with a slight constriction if YOU understand how to solve the problem. But whether it does now or not, it will shoot out later. Or you will get frustrated enough to remove it in some fashion that you find rational. What you MUST learn to understand and deal with for cast is the mechanics you face and the problems that they generate.

From my results you need to have a powder speed and a pressure that will keep the base hugging the bore once it clears the constriction or you will be dribbling a basketball of sorts. Not sure you are going to do that with either hardness and those powder choices / levels really. I would say something in the HS-6 to AA7 area will be better and then those are going to bump you up to the 1000 to 1100 fps are when you get good ignition. You might laugh, but if you want to stick to those powder choices, LLA might not be a bad idea because you are going to blow off the lube you have on the bullet once you lose seal. And LLA is the very finest lube for barrel breakin.

So there are no pat answers which are why you got such varied opinion. If you understood what I just told you, my guess would be the 12 BHN until you clear the constriction or decide to speed way up. Still just a guess.

[Bass Ackward]

1. To promote soft only is a mistake and to promote only hard is also a mistake.

2. Bass brought up one of the gun writers and the MOA revolver. I have that somewhere but can't find it. Thousands were spent on the gun, special barrel, etc. Then I am almost 100% sure that cast boolits were not used to finally get a 1" group at 100.

3. Bass talks a lot of sense on one post then talks in circles the next so no one can understand what he is saying. As much as I like and respect him, he baffles the heck out of me.

4. I show and tell everything I can and I wish Bass would get his camera out and go toe to toe with me. I have posted so many pictures I have to delete them on a regular basis because I run out of space. Yet we all need proof of what is said from others too.

5. C'mon Bass, I threw the towel in the ring, it is now up to you. I am not afraid and will show every failure and every success.

I need to clear some of this up. I say enough controversial things that I don't have to add more because I am misunderstood.

1. This is false. I have never advocated soft exclusively. What I have tried to do is get folks (even you) to see that there are options " IF " you have the mechanicals to do it. And to understand why they might NOT have options. That's good to know too. Each gun dictates the battles that must be fought. If you teach someone to analyze their situation before they simply begin, then their chances for success (wasting money) go up greatly. Your method and promises might have somebody out there buying and selling guns one after another running through mold after mold trying for 1" groups and he couldn't shoot paper if his life depended on it. Man has to know his limitations.

2. I found the article. It was a stock Ruger Redhawk. I will mail it to you if you like.

3. Situation 3 is honest. I might deviate on purpose if I feel that it will get someone to think. Better to have a people that can solve their own problems. Even if that is to mold hard. Remember, I had a free and flowing supply of lino for almost 10 years. WW in the 60s was 9% antimony (18 BHN). Add tin and you were close to 20 BHN. So anybody at this long term has shot hard bullets. You seem to think hard is a new discovery. And .... I don't get any money to push soft bullets.

4. I did recently with my 4" 45AR at 100 yards to show stability of a 260 grain LBT. I was pretty proud of that 4" group actually considering it was opens and the bullet weight. But I had to shoot at whole 9" pie plate to do it. IF I ever run into snakes, deer, or bad guys at 100 yards with pie plates attached to them and I am shooting from the bench, they are a goner for sure. Anybody else that is using a 45AR with a 260 LBT under those conditions can take heart? But that ain't too much good for other folks huh?

5. Does the ability to post, or to have your information accepted rely on a picture? So what happens to the guy who gets a free supply of soft lead. Should he simply sell it? Can't it be used for anything? Lino is gone. Future WW is going to be suspect. So aren't alternative prospects as important to you as different molds or primers? Should be. There ain't just one way.

[44man]

Why is accuracy such a contentious problem? Does it not help every shooter? I have never seen so many claim it is not important and they are happy with what they get and then tell a fella that asks questions that they will be happy too.
A man wants to know what works, what shoots best, what does not lead his bore, what lube to use, what powder and on and on.
Now let me show you some load workup targets that have problems, just a few because I don't want to confuse anyone.
Notice all the top targets that show fliers, 3 to 4 shots tight but then the ones that go out.
Now look at the lower ones. 9/16", then ten shots, (The vertical dispersion is me with bag changes, I ignore it.) Then 1/2", then two sighter groups of 5/8" and 5/16", all shot at 50 yards. Do I need to lay out a few hundred more targets?
Now tell me what you would prefer? If you say the upper ones are good enough---YOU FIB! :coffee:
I know what causes the fliers, very easy to solve but if I ask you fellas, I will get 1000 wrong answers.
I will say all boolits are throat size, all use the same loads based on boolit weight. Darn, I gave you the answer! :Fire:
Well, feel free to comment. If you don't care about accuracy, then don't bother.

[Bass Ackward]

[QUOTE=Lloyd Smale;811944]i too have never read Elmer claiming to shoot one inch at 50 yards let alone claiming that was his standard. [QUOTE]

I appologize. You guys are correct. Elmer said 1 1/2" at 50 yards.

Six Guns, page 58, lower right hand paragraph, 8 lines up from the bottom of the page. Again in Six Guns, page 195 right hand column third paragraph down. Six Guns, page 282, left hand column first para down where he mentions full power loads.

[Bass Ackward]

I know what causes the fliers, very easy to solve but if I ask you fellas, I will get 1000 wrong answers.
I will say all boolits are throat size, all use the same loads based on boolit weight. Darn, I gave you the answer! :Fire:


Not sure that I understand what you are saying here.

Are you saying that gun, with that bullet design, at that hardness, with that load, that throat diameter is causing the fliers?

Or is the statement to read that you believe that throat size under all circumstances always causes fliers?

The LLA trick will help the bullets to size and dry those fliers up in a lot of situations. Especially in newer guns till they wear in.

Do you think that the majority of handguns made today or at any point is history have barrels longer or shorter than 5"? If you pick shorter you win. And to answer you question, accuracy is only a problem when all handguns need to meet the long barrel, extra sight standard.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont know but with good loads my 4 inch 500s 4 inch 629s and 4 5/8s rugers will shoot just as accurately as any 10 inch gun at any range. Just because a guy prefers a short barrel doesnt mean he isnt interested in accuracy. Id about bet the reason most guns are bought short is that a many are bought for self defence and alot of handgun hunters are like me and like a easily packable sixgun. I once owned a 3 inch 610 smith that was flat out the most accurate 6 gun ive ever shot.

[Bass Ackward]

dont know but with good loads my 4 inch 500s 4 inch 629s and 4 5/8s rugers will shoot just as accurately as any 10 inch gun at any range. Just because a guy prefers a short barrel doesnt mean he isnt interested in accuracy. Id about bet the reason most guns are bought short is that a many are bought for self defence and alot of handgun hunters are like me and like a easily packable sixgun. I once owned a 3 inch 610 smith that was flat out the most accurate 6 gun ive ever shot.


I understand. Mine was a Charter Arms snub. It would cut one hole at 50 back then. With one load. And one load only. I also had a 4" Anaconda that was pretty amazing too, till the timing went. It was fairly flexible.

The point is not the accuracy of short barrels, but the sight radius of short barrels. (for most people) And I would say that from my experience, I had ten accurate loads in longer barrels for every one from a short barrel. That means that you have ten chances to do better than a short barrel. So odds are ......................

[ole 5 hole group]

Gotta agree with ya Lloyd but a long sight radius is a little easier to shoot accurately - for me anyway. A little wobble with the long sight radius results in a big group but a little wobble in a shorter sight radius results in a huge group everything else equal. I kinda liked a short barrel with an extended front sight for the 22, 38 and 45ACP. I don't know but I'm thinking these red dots that are currently on the market or in the R&D stage will really boost proficiency relative to marksmanship. That JPoint is an example of what I'm leaning toward - if they could only get that down to a 2" dot, maybe a few of us ole timers could start peeing in the tall grass again. What do ya think?

[Bass Ackward]

The question here is not if you are shooting accurately. Not if you have a pet revolver that is a cut above. The question is plain and simple.

Are you getting 1" or less at 50 yards on a consistent basis from a gun with open sights and 5" or less of barrel?

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Yup, you fellers all have strong opinions it seems, but also a lot of valid points, enough to go around. Most of my 5-6 shooters have 45/8"-61/2" bbls...and after slugging chambers and throats and BBLs , I work on mating a boolit to the gun after I have done any lapping and adjustment needed.[smilie=b:

I'm no spring chicken anymore, so 1" at 50 yds is a real rare happening with me with iron sights....2 " tickles me to death and if I can hit a quart can at 100yds I'm estatic....:groner: I guess getting old sux a bit , but it is better than the alternative , I'm told.

Enjoy fellers and keep up the faith.

[44man]

Not sure that I understand what you are saying here.

Are you saying that gun, with that bullet design, at that hardness, with that load, that throat diameter is causing the fliers?

Or is the statement to read that you believe that throat size under all circumstances always causes fliers?

The LLA trick will help the bullets to size and dry those fliers up in a lot of situations. Especially in newer guns till they wear in.

Do you think that the majority of handguns made today or at any point is history have barrels longer or shorter than 5"? If you pick shorter you win. And to answer you question, accuracy is only a problem when all handguns need to meet the long barrel, extra sight standard.
Nope, I said only that all boolits are the same diameter and all fit the throats. Nothing at all to do with the throats, barrel or any part of the gun.
Now short barrels are brought up and THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN ACCURACY ---unless you get so short that special loads are needed to spin up the boolit for stability. Ease of shooting and sighting always goes to the longer barrel but if a 4" or a 6" is shot from a rest, they will both be accurate.
Longer barrels make it easier to use a wider weight range of boolits simply because you can use slower powders for a longer power stroke.
Once the cartridges get larger and larger, the longer the barrel needs to be because there is no way to utilize the powder space. But that is another question for another place.
Nothing I ever post is based on a shooters ability or his vision, etc. ONLY the gun and loads so if you are doing things right but get so-so groups then hand your gun to a good shooter and he pokes a little hole in the target, you should have a big smile. I don't care if you need to clamp your gun in a vise or need a 20X scope, all I care about is does the gun shoot the way it should.
Don't run yourself down about not having good vision or anything else about your abilities, that is not what I care about.
All I want is that your revolver is the best darn thing you ever shot.
That has always been the challenge I ask for. If you have something that works, PLEASE show it and explain it all.