Tumbling Loaded Ammo

[StarMetal]

mroliver

The other day I had to tumble some 30 Luger casings so decided to take a brand new piece of brass, in this case a 260 Rem, put a fired primer in it, then filled it with 5010 surplus powder, which is very course tube powder. I didn't fill the case all the way. I plugged it with a lead bullet. I tumbled for two hours. I took the case out and dumped the powder onto a white sheet of paper. There were some particles of the graphite coating in with the powder grains. This shows that there was a beginning to break down the grains. Yes I admit not alot , but none the less it was still there. I really don't see this happening much with flake powders, such as Unique. I would imagine a more aggressive tumbler and longer tumble time could break tube powder down more.

Joe

[mroliver77]

Joe,
For gods sake dont load that powder as you could blow your gun!
Just kidding. Did you give it the white paper test before tumbling?
I will not be able to post until Monday but I will try to set up a decent tumbling experiment and record all data gleaned from it and share it. I never proposed that anybody but me should tumble loaded ammo. My unscientific tests have shown the couple diferent loadings I have tumbled did not break down.
For some reason my post seems to irk you. That was never my intention. Hopefully we can all learn something here. Jay

[StarMetal]

Jay

I tell you ya if you ever use that 5010 make sure you clean your barrel after shooting. The dang stuff is like blackpowder. In fact me and Oldfeller cale it Whitepowder in to referance of how dirty is it is.

I would imagine the live ammo tumbling is overrated, but there is some merit to it. We should learn all safety precautions and load according.

Joe

[Willbird]

Jay, I think it is a great idea to load some and tumble, I have 30 caliber collet puller, we could come up with some 308 or 06 brass I think in differnt headstamps and try differant powder in them.

I'm sure not afraid to toss some in for 10 minutes if I have a need to sometime

[waksupi]

Joe, you have me wondering. Did you screen the powder before you loaded it into the cartridge? I wonder if the graphite was "free" before loading?

[KYCaster]

Many years ago when I thought Alox was THE lube, I was loading lots of .45ACP and I would tumble the loaded rounds to get the excess Alox of the cartridge so it wouldn't build up in the chamber. I was very leary of the practice and did quite a bit of crono testing before I was comfortable with it. Most of my loads used WW231 but I also tested Bullseye, WW452AA and a couple others I don't recall. In all cases tumbling caused a slight decrease in velocity and a substantial decrease in SD. The velocity loss was enough to go from a comfortable IPSC major power factor to borderline minor. Seems like the slower the powder, the more effect the tumbling had. I don't know if my results would carry over to extruded powders but based on the results I got, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Jerry

[StarMetal]

Ric

No I didn't screen it so I'll do that and rerun the test.

Joe

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't think free graphite would make an appreciable difference with smokeless powder. The mere presence of the graphite, with smokeless, can reduce the available energy by 2½ times as much as the same amount of moisture does, and some stabilisers by 4 times as much. (With black powder, which can be given a seductive glaze by tumbling with graphite, the position is very different, but graphite can increase bore fouling.) As to whether liberating the graphite or leaving it attached to the powder makes any difference, or in which direction, it's anybody's guess.

I wouldn't tumble a loaded round, and still less would I use a vibratory cleaner. Breaking up of the grains will increase the burning rate and therefore the pressure buildup, and I do half-remember stories which suggested that this can happen. With slow and/or ball powders you often depend on an inhibitor layer in the surface of the grain, and this could conceivably be removed without much difference you could see.

[locutus]

I've tumbled loaded ammo for decades with no adverse reactions ***BUT*** I never tumble for over ten (10) minutes. I use untreated corncobs, throw in a couple of ounces of mineral spirits, let it tumble for about 5 minutes to mix the mineral spirits into the cobs. Then I throw in the ammo and tumble for ten minutes. This process takes off the lube, and as far as I can tell, doesn't effect the ammo.

BTW, I use an old Thumlers rock rumbler, not the new vibratory types.

[Ken O]

I just dont see how tubling loaded rounds would matter at all. The powder comes from all over the world (Finland, Australia etc), during the shipping the vibration it recieves in planes, ships, trucks and even the UPS truck makes your vibratory tumbler about like a pillow. Then in the armed forces it is bounced around in Jeeps (or Hummers now) trucks, anyone who has been in these truck would know what I'm talking about, that if vibration did damage, it should be useless.
Myself, I dont have any need to tumble loaded ammo, but if I did, I sure wouldnt worry about damaging it.

[carpetman]

locutus---I too use a Thumlers Tumbler rock polisher. Mine did not have an off/on switch you plug and unplug. This was easily fixed with a toggle switch and there were already holes you could use to mount it. Broke a couple of belts and used sewing machine belts. Then several years ago I made a leather belt. Took a thick piece of leather and cut a strip off it wide enough to be square. Beveled the edges and rolled it to round it some. Connected the ends where they butt with heavy fishing line---could use a large staple. Seems to be much better than the rubber belts. As to tumbling a loaded round,WHY? Is my question. What do you possibly gain by tumbling at that point vs tumbling after you size?

[Newboy]

Carpetman, I use a progressive, and it makes it hard to get to 'em to polish after sizing. Polish after loading makes them look real nice.

[locutus]

locutus line--- As to tumbling a loaded round,WHY? Is my question. What do you possibly gain by tumbling at that point vs tumbling after you size?

Most of the loaded rounds I tumble are .223, .308 and .30-06. I load on a Dillon XL 650. My normal procedure is to decap with a RCBS universal decapping die, and them tumble/polish.

I spray lube after tumbling and then load normally. But this leaves lube on the loaded rounds. I'm an old-timer, I guess, and the thought of lube on my rounds gives my the jitters real bad. So I tumble them to get the lube off. No other reeson.

The corncob/mineral spirits works real well at removing the lube.

[Bullshop Junior]

Have any of you thought about pointed jacketed bullets? I think that the point in the jacketed bullet could make the primer go off if the bullet and the primer got in contact.. I have never cleaned loaded ammo for that reason.
DANIEL / BULL SHOP JUNIOR

[fatnhappy]

mroliver

The other day I had to tumble some 30 Luger casings so decided to take a brand new piece of brass, in this case a 260 Rem, put a fired primer in it, then filled it with 5010 surplus powder, which is very course tube powder. I didn't fill the case all the way. I plugged it with a lead bullet. I tumbled for two hours. I took the case out and dumped the powder onto a white sheet of paper. There were some particles of the graphite coating in with the powder grains. This shows that there was a beginning to break down the grains. Yes I admit not alot , but none the less it was still there. I really don't see this happening much with flake powders, such as Unique. I would imagine a more aggressive tumbler and longer tumble time could break tube powder down more.

Joe

Why? Pardon me but what was the point of the exercise?

and how exactly does this tie into the next 11 lines of text?
"The other day I had to tumble some 30 Luger casings "


Inquiring minds are stumped.

[azrednek]

Have any of you thought about pointed jacketed bullets? I think that the point in the jacketed bullet could make the primer go off if the bullet and the primer got in contact.. I have never cleaned loaded ammo for that reason.
DANIEL / BULL SHOP JUNIOR

The very first time I saw a vibratory tumbler was in the vendor area at the NRA convention in Phoenix Arizona in the early 80's. Your point was my first question. The salesman told me when the tumbler (he didn't call it a tumbler
but something I can't recall) was in the development process they did everything possible to try and get an ignition including having bullets made that were as he said as sharp as a pencil and never got an unintended detonation.

They took it a step further and deliberately ignited loaded ammo in the tumbler with a cartridge loaded with an electrical cap. It did as expected, same as a cartridge does in a fire. The case goes sailing and the bullet hardly moves. I can't recall how many times he told me they did it that way, but on one occasion the detonation would have likely caused a fire with the burning powder igniting the media. According to the salesman because of the fire possibility they warned against tumbling loaded ammo, not because of a primer detonation sending a bullet through the air.

About 12 years ago I had a house fire and I had close to 2,000 rounds survive. Only had three factory 44 special and one reloaded rounds ignite. The remaining ammo most smoke damaged, many with melted plastic and styrofoam stuck on the cases were all tumbled with my new vibratory tumbler with no problems or detonations. My Thumblers roller type tumbler didn't survive the fire.

A friend of mine over a period of a few weeks used a vibratory tumbler and to polish a few thousand real grungy surplus Israeli 7.62 tracers. He was hesitant until I showed him some of the smoke damaged ammo I tumbled. He never had a problem and all the ammo had pointed fmj's.

I also had a commercial reloader tell me they tumbled all their rifle ammo after loading. The sizing lube would cause the ammo to stick to the styrofoam boxes they packed it in and he needed to remove it. He also said the highly polished ammo help sell it. He had a neat set-up. A roller tumbler he made that rolled one or two five gallon metal oil drums.

[gschwertley]

I have thought about this before a bit. This was caused by reading somewhere that you should "never carry ammo in your vehicle for prolonged periods" because the vibration breaks down the chemical coatings on propellants.

To this, I have concluded what one of the previous posters pointed out and that is, look at the long journeys that raw powder and loaded ammo often go through before they even get into our hands.

The other point I would make is, that at least one of the major ammo makers (Winchester) tumbles most of their ammo before boxing it. This gives it that final sparkly appearance that attracts the eye. If you doubt what I am saying, just look at the primer on just about any Winchester centerfire round. You can see the tumbling media dust present between the primer and the wall of the primer pocket.

I figure if Winchester does it, it can't be all that deterimental. No doubt some "breakdown of coatings" takes place, but it apparently makes little significant difference in the performance of the ammo, at least from the standpoint of safety.

[Ed Barrett]

All you Kaliforians should be aware that the occasional earth quakes in your area causes the powder you have stored to break down into useless dust. Please package all this powder up and send it to me. I will safely dispose of it here in the relitivly earth quake frre area in the midwest. Hurry and get that powder to me, especially the 4895 and other IMR powders. <G>

[9.3X62AL]

ELB just hit on the reason I prefer ball/spherical powders for most of my rifle loading. Extruded powders are indeed prone to breakage and fracturing, as an adjunct to their tubular shape. This is another manifestation and poorly understood side-effect of plate tectonics. Spherical powders, on the other hand, roll with the punches in their factory packaging, and re-absorb any deterrent coatings shed during shipping and handling--enhancing shot-to-shot consistency.

This explains clearly the strong preference for ball powders in earthquake country. True fact. :-) We reloaders here in the the PRC await earthquakes for this reason--a lot like folks in the Midwest might wish for tornadoes to assist with topsoil re-distribution. Some of my best groups with cast boolits have come right after seismic activity, in fact.

There--we're on topic.

[zzmoore]

Maybe I am doing something wrong. I clean my brass before I load it. Am I missing something?

[waksupi]

ZZ, you aren't missing anything. The purpose of most for tumbling after reloading, is to remove bullet lube residue. I generally just sit down with a cloth, and clean them up. It's more time consuming, but that's just the way I go about it.

[Rrusse11]

ZZ, you aren't missing anything. The purpose of most for tumbling after reloading, is to remove bullet lube residue. I generally just sit down with a cloth, and clean them up. It's more time consuming, but that's just the way I go about it.

I use a mineral turps dampened rag, a quick wipe as a final inspection of each round as it comes off the press does the trick for me.
Cheers,
R*2

[Bass Ackward]

I always feel as though I am bassackwards again. Here some people remove lube by tumbling and wiping after loading. And that is just the very time I am applying lube after loading.

For low pressure loads that will not expand the brass enough to seal for what ever reason, I paint on liquid Alox on the outside of the case. Works great at preventing blow by.

Sometimes I even paint when I don't see black. It shows up with narrower ES on the chrono and sometimes on the target too.

[locutus]

ZZ, you aren't missing anything. The purpose of most for tumbling after reloading, is to remove bullet lube residue. I generally just sit down with a cloth, and clean them up. It's more time consuming, but that's just the way I go about it.


I have used this procedure in the past. But when you load 2500 to 3000 rounds in an evening, it becomes impossible to clean them all in this manner.