RBs or slugs for a 20 ga.smoothie

[fredw1324]

Friends all,
What is your advice for the best place to start in for a 20 gauge smooth bore?
I have never reloaded shotgun shells, nor own everything I will need. I prefer brass to paper...its just my thing about brass.

I would be mostly shooting elk or Pigs within 100 yards.

Gun is SXS 24 inch barrels with sites. and about 8 lbs.

I have been looking at some postings, and it all kinda get a little confusing haaving nver done them

Thank you all in advance!

TC

[tommygirlMT]

If its a 20ga. --- its a smoothie --- and your going to be shooting heavy boned thick game such as big pigs and elk --- Go with a RB.

That is provided you can do something about the choke problem most smoothies have. You want a IC or Skeet choke --- I hope yours has interchangable choke tubes and you can find such an appropriatly non-constrictive choke tube for it.

Medium hardness ball (50/50 --- WW/pure --- water quenched) and train yourself to aim directly below the front shoulder area not further back along the body like normal. Blow the lungs out and break their big upper section front leg bones at the same time to anchor them until they bleed out. RB is good at punching through and breaking bone --- not so good at hydrolic shock value or "grinding hamburger". Place your shots accordingly.

If you had a rifled bore a big flat nose solid slug would be better but you have a smoothy and a foster type slug in the smaller 20ga. bore size isn't as good as a ball for heavier game --- need to compensate for the lower muzzle energy by using a deaper penetrating projectile shape.

Figure out your bore size and get a RB mold that casts the same size or just a couple thousands of an inch bigger --- Tumble lube the balls --- Use a Federal wad with the petals cut off and a stack of nitro cards on top of that under the ball --- Better yet plastic gas seal only from the bottom of a plastic wad, then thick nitro card, then waxed felt or fiber wads then ball. Better yet make donut wads to put under ball on top of waxed cushion wads --- they squish by themselves to make a ball shaped impression to nest the ball. But a hard nitro with a hole just a little more then 1/2 its diameter drilled DEAD CENTER is even better to keep the ball centered, especially in the forcing cone area of the gun, for best accuracy. True cylinder bore gun is best of all for a smoothie of course but not many people willing to saw off the end of their barrel and loose the ability to shoot regular shot loads by changing out choke tubes. Custom choke tube ground out to match your guns bore and be true cylinder bore with no transition "bump" could work too but usually cheaper to buy a second gun and cut off first one to true cylinder then have special made choke tube.

[fredw1324]

Thanks you for all of your advice!
I looked at your page and saw a slug that is called a Brown Bess. Terrific design is this for s smooth bore or rifled? some form of that design should work in a shotgun that has no chokes ( I wanted 24 inch barrels), so I shorted the length negating the chokes forever.
I have found some forums that talk about attaching plastic wads or something to stabilize flight like the sabot photos I've seen. and noticed a picture of one of yours with something screwed with a wood screw. Is this for the same reason?
Neat idea if it were made ffrom a soft wood.

I do plan on trying a lot of things till one works, and have a friend who is a machinist.....Thank you again!!
TC

[wire nut]

I load .562 round ball in a 20 gauge hull. I am using claybuster wads and with the .562 ball. It is a tight push thru fit in an open bore H and R that I cut off for him. I have been putting cut pieces of cardboard under the ball to bring the ball up flush with the end of the wad. I then put a piece cut from a cereal box on top of the ball and crimp. I am loading these in federal hulls and using middle of the loading of green dot. I was pleasently surprise at how well these shoot. It took some time to find this combo but he really likes to shoot these.

[fredw1324]

How did you come up with that diameter?. I have seen the number.610 and.612 Is this just a fact of the different barrel manufacturing? if So i must make real sure to measure mine befor I order molds.

I understand now the wad/whole issue to keep things in alignment, and saw that some use a plastice wad or something too?

[tommygirlMT]

He is talking about putting the ball inside a shot wad --- I was talking about using a ball that fits the bore.

A ball inside a wad will be smaller diameter becasue the petals of the wad take up some room.

[wire nut]

Tommygirl is correct, I measured the bore of the gun, checked the thickness of the petals of the wad and calculated what would give a tight fit. My reasoning behind this is the same as a patched ball in a muzzle loader. This combo gave a very tight push thru fit, feels about the same as what a patched ball fells in my ML rifles

[fredw1324]

Ok, I see what you are saying, the card would be a larger ball then a cupped wad. Would they give about the same accuracy?........seems to me that a ball at or just shy of the bore diameter would be prefered......I might be missing some here...

[hamour]

Go to Dixies slugs, they have a 3" load for 20ga with 3 .54 balls in it. This will handle all you need to with a 20ga.

http://www.dixieslugs.com/order.html

I could not find the data for the load so you might want to email the owner and find out.

Good luck

[fredw1324]

Thanks Hamour,
I was not aware of that link, I'll check it out to see what they have to say. This is gettin more interesting all the time.....steep learning curve

[tommygirlMT]

Ok, I see what you are saying, the card would be a larger ball then a cupped wad. Would they give about the same accuracy?........seems to me that a ball at or just shy of the bore diameter would be prefered......I might be missing some here...

Not bore size or just shy --- bore size or just a hair BIGGER --- a tight fit is the definition of accuracy --- remember with a ball there is only a very thin equator band that actually touches the bore --- very little side-ways force is needed squish that thin little band.

Yes, I prefer full-bore to ball inside wad. More weight and larger caliber projectile --- especially true with the 20 bore gun. A full diameter ball for the 20 bore will weigh in at less then 13/16oz that is pretty light as it is --- going smaller with a ball inside wad is only going to make the weight go down even further.

[tommygirlMT]

Thanks you for all of your advice!
I looked at your page and saw a slug that is called a Brown Bess. Terrific design is this for s smooth bore or rifled? some form of that design should work in a shotgun that has no chokes ( I wanted 24 inch barrels), so I shorted the length negating the chokes forever.
I have found some forums that talk about attaching plastic wads or something to stabilize flight like the sabot photos I've seen. and noticed a picture of one of yours with something screwed with a wood screw. Is this for the same reason?
Neat idea if it were made ffrom a soft wood.

I do plan on trying a lot of things till one works, and have a friend who is a machinist.....Thank you again!!
TC

The "Brown Bess" is a 75-caliber (exactly 3/4" inside diameter) smooth bore black powder muzzle loading musket. They were used in the American Colonial War For Independence on both sides. Modern re-creations are available, I shoot patched 735 balls in mine. Someone on the forum a long time ago asked if one could make a foster slug type projectile to use in theirs. I drew up that to show what I thought would be the best way to make the mold if they were going to go through with it all the way. I think he ended up just getting a ball mold if I remember correctly.

The Slug with the nose ring and tail --- that's something that has been rattling around in the back of my mind and someday I'm going to have a mold built for. It's a dangerous game slug that is designed so it can be fired from any shotgun, any choke, etc. Its not designed to be used or be accurate beyond 25-50 yards It is designed for close up nock down and safe use in any choke. The wads shown are the 1/4" thick extra tough and hard wads from circlefly.com Nose one has a 3/8" hole drilled in it to slip onto the nose of the slug. The three tail ones have a 3/32" hole drilled in them for the screw to hold the tail on. The mold would be nose pore with a 3/32" diameter pin to make the hole for the screw in the base of the slug. Slug head would be hard heat treated lead. Body is undersize to slip through even a turkey choke 12ga. with the nose ring and tail squishing down since they are only very hard cardboard.

Neither of those two designs would probably be the best for what you are trying to do --- medium hard ball about 0.002" to 0.005" over your bore size and correct shot placement for such a load is what I recommend for your application.

[wire nut]

When I first started playing with this load shot was $50 a bag, I wanted to be able to save a little money as he was shooting 100+ rounds per week. He shoots these thru an h&r with the barrell cut to 20 inches and with the Ati stock,forearm,heat sheild and fake flash suppressor on it. Kinda looks funny but is fun to shoot.

[fredw1324]

Really ,really interesting information from all! thank you.
This is going to be a steep learning curve, but most likey a fun one.

It looks like I treat all loads (given the same weight) the same, that is use the same powder amount whether it is for shot or slugs whic is not the case with my rifle& pistol reloading.
The designs of the various slugs is getting better in my brain, and one of the more intersting issues. Now I understand why some of you more experienced shooters have come up with your own designs.

Once I get to actually trying out this whole thing, I too would like to exeriment, but most likely someone elses slugs.
Talking to a civil war collector, he said to get the book by Mason and McKee for a definative look historically of what people were doing for over 100+ years and in particular the 1860s.

I there a good reloading book I should pick up that will tell me about slug loading and the basics,powders etc. Seem there are as many ideas as powerd brands.

Tlak with you all again....Thank you!!
TC

[turbo1889]

. . . It looks like I treat all loads (given the same weight) the same, that is use the same powder amount whether it is for shot or slugs which is not the case with my rifle& pistol reloading. . . .

You have the basic Idea correct but I would like to make a little bit of clarification. Slugs and shot are not the same by weight; rather a solid slug normally produces slightly less chamber pressure as the same weight of shot. Or stated another way you can usually use a slightly higher charge of powder with a slug as you can with an equal weight shot load.

Thus, when one is dealing with a custom slug design which there is no official published load data for the safe and prudent thing to do is load via. equivalent weight shot load data. If anything the resulting load will have slightly lower pressure then the shot load data it was based on.

Now if one does have load data for a slug that is at least close in weight and general design that one is working with one can use that load data and reduce it slightly for safety.

For Example, lets take that bore size round ball slug load that some have been recommending to you.

0.610" ball pure lead = 342gr.
0.610" ball WW alloy = 329gr.

0.630" ball pure lead = 377gr.
0.630" ball WW alloy = 363gr.

So depending on your bore size and the exact alloy you cast your balls from you should end up with balls that weight some where between 329 and 377 grains or measured in ounces that would be between 3/4 and 7/8 ounces.

Lets assume you plan to use IMR-SR-4756 powder (a good choice for this application).

After skimming the load data for 7/8oz of lead shot in a 20ga. shell with this powder in three of my loading manuals I was able to figure out that charges range between 17.5 and 24.0 grains for all listed combinations which a strong tendency for the heavier charge listings to be listed for paper base wad Federal hulls and the lighter charges to be listed for Remington and Winchester one piece compression formed tapered hulls and separate plastic base wad hulls falling in the middle.

Next thing is to look for slug load data with similar weights, if I don't find any then that shot load powder charge data range based on hull type is what I have to work with.

But in this case, however, I do find two different similar weight slug loads. The Lyman 20ga. 345gr. foster type slug and the Lyman 20ga. 350gr. wad-slug. Once again I examine the range of charges for both of these two slugs for the chosen powder and figure out that charges between 23.5 and 32.0 grains with the same thing being true as far as which hull types show up where in that range.

This clearly demonstrates what I am saying about slugs using more powder then equivalent weight shot loads to produce the same pressure loads and thus it being safe to load via. shot load data. It, also, however demonstrates that if I have at least some similar slug load data to pull from as well it is a considerable help to me because it shows me how much higher I can safely take the charge level above and beyond what is recommended for an equivalent weight of shot.

[fredw1324]

Thanks,
I would never had thought that to be the case. I my other non-shotgun reloading, a larger grain bullet stipulates that a slightly lesser load be used.

I suspect that there are other variables to consider as well such as types of wads types,sizes,placement. etc? I have picked up that shotguns in general have consideravle lower chamber presure that other types of guns.

Do primer types and lubes have much or other things have much influence on performance? I have also read that packing the powder (like BP shooters do) doe produce better aacuracy in slug round or cylinder, is this true?
Thanks
TC

[turbo1889]

. . . I my other non-shotgun reloading, a larger grain bullet stipulates that a slightly lesser load be used. . . .

That is still very true with shotgun loads. A 7/8oz. shot load will use more of the same powder then a 1-1/8oz. shot load (in the same length hull). And a 350gr. slug will use more of the same powder then a 450gr. slug.

The total "payload" (general term when loading shotguns to refer to whatever is sent out the end of the barrel not including the wadding) weight still follows the rule you are used to

Where the difference comes in is when we start discussing what exactly that "payload" weight consists of. Some possibilities include: lead shot, bismuth shot, steel shot, hevi-shot, buffered lead shot, buffered bismuth shot, buffered steel shot, buffered hevi-shot, buck shot (usually lead), buffered buck shot, multi-ball loads (such as tri-ball loads), slugs, and special purpose payloads like flares, tranquilizer darts, electronic tracking tags, etc, etc . . . .

Now there are some known variables within that jumble of different possible payloads such as the fact that total payload weight for total payload weight lead slug loads use slightly more powder then lead shot loads. Thus it is safe to load slugs using lead shot load data of equivalent weight and un-safe/dangerous to load lead shot loads using slug load data.


. . . I suspect that there are other variables to consider as well such as types of wads types,sizes,placement. etc? I have picked up that shotguns in general have consideravle lower chamber presure that other types of guns.

Do primer types and lubes have much or other things have much influence on performance? . . .

Yes, the type of hull is one of the biggest sub-variables in this equation as I eluded to earlier. Primers do matter but mainly in terms of magnum vs. non-magnum primers. Wads do matter, but mainly in terms of straight wad vs. tapered wad at least for the plastic variety.


. . . I have also read that packing the powder (like BP shooters do) doe produce better aacuracy in slug round or cylinder, is this true? . . .

The powder in shotgun loads should always be a tight compressed fit with no extra air-space. This is what "wad-pressure" is all about, when the wad seating ram on a shotgun shell loading machine compresses the wad it is also compressing the powder directly under the wad. As far as whether or not more tightly compressed loads are more accurate - I don't know. But I do know that if a shotgun load has extra air space in the powder area like one often sees in metallic cartridge loading where you can shake the case and hear the powder move there is a potential for such a load to detonate and blow your gun up in your face. That is why some of us really, really hate some of the new style Winchester hulls that are no longer one piece compression formed like they used to be and instead have a two piece construction where there is a lip that if you aren’t careful the bottom of the wad can catch on and it feels like you seated the wad properly nice and tight but you really didn't and the gas seal bottom of the wad is cocked side-ways and the powder area is exposed to the open air space of the cushion leg section of the wad - not good, not good at all. If you ever try loading them darn things check the finished loads with a bright flashlight on the opposite side to make sure the bottom of the wad is straight and tight on top of the powder and not tilted sideways with loose powder flowing back and forth between the cushion leg section and underneath the gas seal where it is supposed to be. Personally I chuck those darn things and don’t even attempt it - had a couple close calls, thank goodness I have a strong gun - never again, its not worth it.

[fredw1324]

Well Turbo1889, that is a lot of information, but I do believe that along with the other information provided buy the above listers, I should clearly (well almost)be able to do this.

I should not run into you hull problem as I am going to use brass exclusively (leftover from Viet Nam days) Magtech and others make 20gauge which is what intend to shoot. Something I am going to try and see is just how to tailor the wad issue. I have seen many of these in which a round ball is placed up on the "cup" with a whole gagle of stuff on the backside. Is all of this stuff really needed, or can I trim off just under the flat cup portion and making sure to put a good set of wads to compress the load?
I sort of understand the "cushion" affect, but do I need it? I do not mind recoil. I shoot a double rifle now, and this is why I got interested in a double barreled shotgun of 20ga. (inexpensive 600 express), and found that through information from this forum and others, that round balls have considerable relative accuracy....all of this information is of great value to me, and I appreciate all that the posters have provided.....sorting through it, and making sense will be followed.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
If it is under 40 yards there is little that can beat the lowly RB.
A rifled barrel and a good SOLID slug would extend that to 100 yards.
I have little use for the hollow slugs many people launch at deer. Sooner or later one is going to fail on a thick shoulder.

[fredw1324]

Glad to see all is well down in Peru,and thank you for your advice. Yes I have read that slug and round balls have a greatly reduced range, but, at my age (65) I can no longer without optics see out to over 80 yards clearly. My intention is to be able to drop one of those Big Texas hogs at under 50 yards. Seems some get better range, but just like my double rifle, it is best left up to short range.
TC
John 3:16!!