.40 swage tool learning curve

[DukeInFlorida]

This will be a running thread, documenting my own experience with the BTS custom swaging die set.

Since there are so many other who have sets in hand, on order, and in their minds, I thought that I would pass along any details that are relative, hoping that others can learn from my mistakes, and make wonderful bullets.

Recapping what I have already posted in other threads, for the purpose of putting all of my info in one place:


Received the die set from BTS (Brian), and set out to start annealing brass.
First annealing was in a bread/meatloaf pan in my woodstove, with vents open, blast furnace like (was to speed up the process). This resulted in melting the batch of brass into a nice yellow glob. Will remember that for some time when I wanna make some cast brass owl paper weights as gifts.
Second annealing was also in wood stove, but with normal running temperature. Some of the brass at the bottom still suffered from too much heat. Other brass seemed to anneal fine, but has been a pain to tumble clean enough to swage.
Got some annealed brass clean, and started swaging.
Ripped the edge of my MDF ( 1.5" thick) bench top off because of the force that I was exerting.
Fabricated a 5/16" thick plate, and fastened that to some support brackets under the bench, and the press is now rock solid.


Then, there's today's learning curve....


My back ails me, so I found that turning the press arm mechanism around, such that the ram goes up when I lift up on the arm, helps a LOT! Now, I can exert a lot of leverage.
Was running through some samples when I heard a snap.
My RCBS "JR" press has the handle threaded into a pretty strong casting. That casting connects to a flat bar, with a pivot pin as the connector. When I purchased this press as a used press (eBay), it came through missing that pivot pin. I had forgotten that I had used a 1010 carbon steel bolt shank as a replacement, which was plenty strong when normal reloading is done on the press.
Need to fabricate a grade 8 replacement
NOTE TO SELF: Things are only as strong as their weakest part.
I'm waiting to find out what the next weakest part is.


General observation from today's samples, approximately 20 pcs before the linkage broke:

I measure the inside diameter of the swage die at approx .401, which is right on the money. However, the biggest I can get the 9mm brass case is approximately .397 to .398 on some. I have checked the fit in a sized .40 S&W case, and that looks OK. It won't just fall into the case at loading time. Would love to get a bit more diameter out of it. It's important to fit the bullet correctly to lands and grooves.

[1874Sharps]

Duke,

I look forward to reading your running thread, as I am wanting to buy a 40 cal/10 mm swage die set from BTS.

[plus1hdcp]

Thanks for sharing your experiences as I too am considering venturing into this arena.

[sagacious]

'Pickle' the brass to clean it after annealing. That will remove the scale and tarnish and bring it back to a clean, bright finish. Pickeling also cleans the inside of the case.

There is info in this forum on methods for pickeling brass. Pickeling removes the annealing scale easier, faster, and more effectively than tumbling.

Hope this helps. :drinks:

[DukeInFlorida]

Hadn't thought about pickling. It's a big no-no with me for cases, but for bullet jackets, I am sure it's the answer. I'll read up on that. Thanks.

[Silicon Wolverine]

i also have a szet of BTS dies i just got. yes i broke my bench too. i have mine mounted in a lyman SPAR-T press that seems to be working fine. also i discovered mine work good to make hollow point lead bullets as i like to shoot pure lead bullets mostly. like this

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/SiliconWolverine/CIMG5642.jpg

just me experimenting a little.

SW

[sagacious]

Hadn't thought about pickling. It's a big no-no with me for cases, but for bullet jackets, I am sure it's the answer. I'll read up on that. Thanks.
Duke,
Pickeling works extremely well for cleaning cases used for reloading ammo. The Birchwood-Casey brass cleaning solution is a 'pickeling' solution that will safely clean the most grungy, tarnished brass inside and out. It removes resizing lube, powder residue, dirt, and scale. Pre-treatment with it saves a lot of time in the tumbler for really dirty or carbon-stained brass. It will not weaken brass, and only takes a few seconds to a couple minutes to clean the brass thoroughly. The instructions say to soak for 3 minutes, but it often does the job in less time. The nice thing is that it works fast, but letting the brass soak will not damage it.

Some homemade case cleaners contain chemicals that can remove zinc from the case. Those, you are definitely correct to shy away from for use with reloading brass.

The B-C brass cleaner works for both reloading and swaging brass, and the solution is reuseable and lasts for many cleanings. I like to have the brass completely clean before I put it into my swaging dies, and the B-C solution is the fastest way to do it. Check it out.

Good luck! :drinks:

[DukeInFlorida]

My replacement press came, a used eBay Rockchucker in excellent condition!

I modified my mounting (still not optimal, but it will handle the stresses now.), and bolted the press in place with Grade 5 3/8" hex head bolts, bolted down through the double 2X4 frame of the bench. I put fender washers at the bottom, to keep the assembly tight against the wood. The plate also has a second set of carriage bolts, to minimize any rocking of the press on the bench when swaging. It seems to be very sturdy at this point!

All of the samples that I had made before the last press broke have been given out to on-lookers and doubters. Everyone seems very impressed so far!

I ran a few samples, so that I can start loading them over the weekend.

I'm getting .398/.3985 right at the bearing location, where the bullet meets the .40 S&W case. My cast lead bullets measure out at .401, and my Berry's Plated flat nose bullets measure out at .399/.400. So, I'm pretty close in terms of what I know works with my gun.

The rims, after swaging, are running at .393/.394, which means that they are not getting fat while swaging.

I'm getting very consistant weight from the process, even without sorting brass or lead.

I am using annealed WCC military headstamped 9mm brass that I got a barrel ful at a gov't auction a while ago. It's very consistant, size, weight, and chemistry.

I'm using sized 125 grain tumble lube (Lee mold) round nose bullets as the core. I didn't weigh those either.

Weighed samples run from 186.4 grains to 186.8 grains. Not enough variance for me to worry about.

I'm pretty sure that dead soft lead will give me better results, although I am not disappointed with the current results. I have some soft lead, and will cast some of that this weekend.

Here are a couple of pics:

[ETG]

I'm using a rockchucker with pure lead and it doesn't take much force to swage the bullets. This may be pickeling but I fill a pot up with water, put in a little vinagar, salt and dish soap - boil for 5-10 min and remove when you start seeing a pinkish color on some of the cases. Rinse and let dry - clean in and out.

[BT Sniper]

More pressure is needed to get to atleast the .399. As you are able to get the ram to its full top positon allready with your curent bullets try setting the die deeper in the press by a fraction of a turn till you can just barly get the press to cam over at the top of the ram stroke. Work your way there slowly and check bullet diameters as you go. I used the same press to make the sample bullets I provided you. What did they measure? As I am just begining this offer of dies to everyone I will take notes of all this info for future referance. It will get to .399 and the rim above .395 I just now it will. Keep at it and keep us posted.

BT

[sargenv]

I was able to get my bullets up to .3995 according to my digital dial caliper.. I need to set up my heavier duty press to see what it will do.

[DukeInFlorida]

So, I was waiting for my reloading class student to arrive this morning,and I was down in the shop, tinkering with my BT Swage Die set. Got to thinking......

What if.....

What if I adjusted the die set so that the bullet goes deeper into the die? That would make the ogive nose smaller diameter, but it might also help with filling out the diameter.

So, I adjusted the lower portion of the die to be a little lower in the press, and then backed out the upper part of the die a bit.

Put a set of parts in, and noticed that the pressure was MUCH LESS!!!

Pulled the resulting bullet out, and VOILA!! .400 diameter! I got a few that were .3995, but that's much better than what I was getting. And, mind you, this was with wheel weight lead. The previous set up seemed to be trying to compress the lead/brass together. You have to give the system some top relief, a place for the bullet to form. By backing off a bit, I am not allowing the bullet to fill out perfectly! I still have to make a minor adjustment to the hollow point (top part of the die), so prevent that from pressing in quite so far. Another half turn out and it should be fine.

So, to repeat, if your pressure is too high, back out the top part of the die a bit, and set the bottom part of the die a bit deeper into the press, to force the forming to happen further into the die. This will result in a smaller diameter nose, but that's fine.

The adjustment will give you fuller diameter (.400 , which is what the die is made for) and less pressure, even with wheel weight lead.

[muleequestrian]

OK, not to hijack your thread here, but can the same thing be done to make .45 ACP from .40 S&W cases ? I don't have a .40 but I can pick up a lot of range brass for free. I also have a hungry 1911A1

[buck1]

BT sniper makes these dies I have one on order for a 44 cal. I hope to see a 45 cal in the future , but I havent heard of one yet. You might shoot him a PM as I have seen in his posts 40S&W to 45 cal jackets can be made. Or BT may post here as hes watching out for us to make sure these things are singing on key. ...Buck

[Daywalker]

I have the .451 swage die from CH4D. I am waiting on a couple more things and I will be punching out 45 bullets for my 1911!! I am using 40 brass for both the 44 and 45.

[BT Sniper]

It is all a matter of fine tuning the dies for sure. That's why I taped the locknuts with set screws. Glad you got things all set. Hopfully you will not have to tinker with it much any more.

Next up is the finding the perfect load learning curve. Great job sticking with it there Duke. It's great when all of a sudden it all comes together.

If only I could find some time to make some parts for my personal dies. I do have the 45 cal set but no punches made for it yet. I did take a 40 S&W up to .455 in a core seating die and I'm sure I can make some great 45s and .458 bullets from it. I would not recamend it on a stock reloading press as it does take a lot more pressure to get it to bump up this much. I do use a standard reloading press frame but with double the leverage and a larger handel.

BT

[Curlymaple42]

This here "bullet casting student" chowed up at Duke's place sunday AM and was VERY impressed with the concept of making brass into jacketed bullets!! So impressed was I that I was having day dreams all the rest of the day of .500 dia bullets for my .50Beowulf!!!! I figure using .45acp brass would do it, right? BTsniper, is this something that has been done before?

Thanks DukeInMaine for the Intro to Casting and the great hospitality!

[DukeInFlorida]

No problem, Chris.
Happy to show people what I know.

The only issue with the HUGE bullets is that they require quite a bit of force to properly form.

You might find that it exceeds the ebilities of a RCBS Rock Chucker.

There are a few companies that make presses expressly for swaging. Corbin is one, and CH4D is another.

Corbin = http://www.corbins.com/

CH4D = http://www.ch4d.com/

There are others.


This here "bullet casting student" chowed up at Duke's place sunday AM and was VERY impressed with the concept of making brass into jacketed bullets!! So impressed was I that I was having day dreams all the rest of the day of .500 dia bullets for my .50Beowulf!!!! I figure using .45acp brass would do it, right? BTsniper, is this something that has been done before?

Thanks DukeInMaine for the Intro to Casting and the great hospitality!

[DukeInFlorida]

I have the process finally figured out, and wanted to post the nature of what I have learned in the past week.

Let me start off by stating what I was doing wrong, so that others don't make the same mistakes.

I had approached this BT Swage Die thing as if it were a bullet seating/crimping die. What got me thinking that way was the "nebulous" description of how to use the press that came in an email, and then the later comments that he made, to the effect of, "Was set up using your die on my press, and your press will require readjustment"...... I quickly learned that the bullet seating/crimping die approach was totally WRONG. You don't re-adjust both halves of the die in some "ratio" to get results, all I did was chase my tail endlessly for a week trying to do that.

So, for those who have't already figured out what it took me some trial and error to learn, here's the proper set up for BT's swage die. I will try and post some pics later:

1) The top part of the die is set properly from Brian, when he made it. DO NOT CHANGE THE adjustment on that part. Well, unless you decide to change from one punch to another. That will require a change, which I will describe.

2) The best performance seems to come from the Hollow Point punch, which is what Brian ships the die installed with. So, for those who receive the die from Brian, leave the top part of the die totally alone. DON'T TOUCH THE TOP ADJUSTMENT.

3) If you decide to change the punch from the Hollow Point, to the Flat Nose, or to the Semi-Hollow, then here is the manner for doing that:

Remove the hex head knock out pin from the top portion. It's loose, and should just pull out
Loosen the locking screw on the Top Portion locking nut, with an allen wrench
The locking screw is provided with a small ball of lead pressing up against the die body, to help keep the setting and the screw from loosening, and will feel tight, even after loosening.
Using a wrench, loosen the large locking nut a bit
Using your fingers, unthread the top portion of the die from the die body completely, and set it aside
Looking inside the die body, you should see the hex head of the nose punch.
To remove the nose punch, loosen the locking nut (don't loosen the set screw) on the lower portion of the swage die from against the press, and unthread the swage die body from your press by hand
Turn the die body over, and allow the nose punch, along with the cylindrical spacer, to fall into you hand.
Remove the spacer from the nose punch, and install it over the punch you will be installing. If the spacer has two flat ends, either end is OK. If the spacer is one of the earlier designs, then install the spacer with the flat end towards the nose of the nose punch.
Drop the nose punch/spacer assembly into the swage die body
IMPORTANT PART OF THE SETUP: Thread in the top part of the die assembly, then...
While holding the die body upside down, look inside, looking at the nose of the nose punch.
Thread the top part of the die body in, until you see the nose of the punch come through the hole.
Continue adjusting until you just start to see the reflection of the nose in the polished OGIVE part of the die body
The purpose of the nose punch is to prevent the lead from entering that hole, and by visually adjusting the nose until it just starts showing in the ogive, it's right at the nose of the formed bullet.
Hold the top portion in place, and tighten the locking screw against the die body
Tighten the locking nut with a wrench, and then tighten the set screw with an allen wrench.
Double check to see that the nose of the nose punch is right at the end of the ogive.
No further adjustment of the top portion should be needed until you change nose punches.


4) Reinstall the swage die in your press

5) Loosen the set screw on the locking nut. This set screw is also provided with a small piece of lead to help keep the set screw secure.

6) Back the locking nut off, so that you can start making adjustments in the lower portion of the swage die.

7) Install a cast core in your annealed brass

8) Lube the outside of the brass with an appropriate swage lube

9) Place the bullet assembly on the force pin, and raise the ram

10) Adjust the swage die until you feel the bullet start to make some forming pressure.

11) Continue adjusting in small increments (same bullet) until you achieve the proper diameter. Do not over adjust!

12) Tighten the locking ring against the press

13) Tighten the set screw to lock the swage die in place.

When these steps are followed, your results should look exactly like the samples that Brian shipped with the swage die.

I'lll add some pictures later.

Brian, if you want me to create a pdf file, including color photos, of these set up instructions, let me know. people can download the pdf file here, and maybe you can ship a printed copy with each die set. Look the directions over, and let me know if I missed anything.

I took a technical writing course a million years ago, and think I have covered the steps clearly, and described them in such a way that they are easy to understand.

I'll also provide some photos of the first parts I made after making the adjustments. They are perfect!

I'm off to call Hodgdon (powder) for some reloading data for 186 grain brass jacketed .399/.400 bullets (bullet length is ~ .740) in .40 S&W. I'll report what they have to say.

UPDATE: Just got off the phone with Hodgdon, and they tell me that any "wildcatting" removes them (legally) from any interest in providing actual reloading data for these bullets. However, I was able to get the fellow on the line to suggest that using Hodgdon's on-line reloading data, and backing off 10% from the 180 grain bullet weight data, which gets me to approximately the data for 200 grain bullets, and then working up to a load from there, would be reasonable. He cautioned me that the .40 S&W is sensitive to pressure, and that since the jacket I am producing is as hard as is the case I am installing it into, I might have some crimping issues. Crimping issues will play into the subject of pressures (loose bullets will not contain the pressure as well). It might also result in some sooty shooting. Also he suggested that I only load those .40 S&W cases one time, and then toss them. That's fine with me, I have buckets full of them.

So, using Titegroup, I'll be starting off with 3.7 grains for these .399/.400 diameter 186 grain bullets. DO NOT USE MY LOAD DATA LIGHTLY. Your bullets may vary in size, weight, and configuration. You should study all of the available load data sources, and make some learned decisions about what will be safe. Failure to use good sound reloading knowledge and data as a reference could result in injury or death to both you and your gun.

[BT Sniper]

neb·u·lous (nby-ls)
adj.
1. Cloudy, misty, or hazy.
2. Lacking definite form or limits; vague: nebulous assurances of future cooperation.
3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a nebula.

Most times I am pretty simple minded in my approach to things so I had to google "nebulous". :redneck:

Glad you got it all set up there Duke. Your review of the helpful tips and info we have discused looks good and should be helpful to new swagers should they incounter dificulties adjusting this die set up. As you have stated it is a bit of tryle and error. For a lot of us here that is how we figured all of this out, some spending years on the tryle and error. I'm certainly glad the many here have been greatful enough to share their learning experience to help out the next inline same as you have been helpful enough to post your experience as well.

It sounds like you are maiking some pretty good looking bullets now and the die is working as I stated it would. We will be looking foward to your range reports.

Thanks and Good shooting

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

Loaded up a few rounds of the swaged bullets yesterday, and went to the range today (raining so hard here that it's flooding everywhere.)

The rounds fired well. I didn't try hanging any paper, so I can't report on accuracy. With the rounds loaded the way they were, and with my powder charge, the rounds were even more snappy than my normal HP plated bullet rounds.

I used:
3.9 gr WST powder. My bullet weight was 186 grains, so I used the 190 grain load data from the Lyman book. The recoil was snappy. The P229 Sig cycled fine. The extracted cases show signs of flattened primer (glad I started low on the powder!), and an ejection port ding on the empty case, which I never see with any of my regular reloads. I won't be re-using any of the .40 cases (suggestion from the Hodgdon techie), so the dings aren't any issue for me to worry about.

I dug out one bullet, to see what it looks like.

My composite image below indicates the sequence of production of these rounds.

I'm happy with the results, and will likely back off a bit more on the WSF powder load for the future.

Thanks, Brian! I'm showing the samples to everyone!!!

http://www.sebagosales.com/swagedbullets/souptonuts.jpg

[buck1]

Why not reuse the brass? Unsupported chamber?

[BT Sniper]

[smilie=w: Your welcome. Those recovered bullets look exactly like the many 44 cal 260 grain bullets I have recovered. The wheel weight alloy cores really hold together well an I bet you have %90+ retained weight and a great looking mushroom.

Great pics too. I love the look of the recovered bullet. Have anymore you can post from all the angles? You will always get a concaved primer in the base of the bullet. Lots of PSI pushing it I guess.

I think the Hodgdon Tech was being a bit cautious or a little CYA on his part involving the reloading of the case but hold on to it for sure as there will be many in need of them for future 44 cal jackets.

Great work on the post Duke. I'll Get you set up with an ejector soon and you can really up production then. Feel free to pass on my offer to the many you show the bullets to. Yes I'll need to get some business cards made I suppose and maybe take up up on a web sight.

Great shooting,

BT Sniper

[buck1]

""Those recovered bullets look exactly like the many 44 cal 260 grain bullets I have recovered.""
Music to my ears! :bigsmyl2:

[BT Sniper]

It should be noted that these bullets tend to be a bit longer then a conventional bullet of equal weight. This causes it to seat a bit deeper and generate more pressure as I understand it. I would even go as far as starting out with the starting published loads for 200 grain bullets when shooting these 190ish grain bullets and work you way up from there.

[jeep45238]

What weight range bullets can you make with this setup? What's the cost of the tooling sans press?

[DukeInFlorida]

Took some loaded rounds to the range today, with my chrony.

Fired 10 rounds, and got an avg speed of 333.9 fps
Highest was 402.4

The predicted speed, according to Hodgdon was:
3.9 gr WST 830 fps @ 28,300 PSI

So, that's remarkably low performance.

I'll have to spend some time building a set of pressure testing rounds. Probably 5 rounds each increment, .1 grain increments. Max load is supposed to be 4.3 grains.

[DukeInFlorida]

No, the mere fact that I have so darn many .40 cases eliminates the need for me to worry about any extremes that loading these may cause. I'll just shoot these cases once, and then toss em in the scrap pile.


Why not reuse the brass? Unsupported chamber?

[DukeInFlorida]

If my club didn't make such a big deal out of digging in the berms, I would have recovered more. As it was, I was nervous about digging the one out. I did dig one out today, and not sure what happened, but it's not mushroomed at all. Looks like it hit a rock in the berm in some weird way. Even cracked the jacket.

As noted in my chrony report, I will have to work on bumping these up a bit to see if I can get better speed from these rounds. Without some speed, the accuracy will be lacking.

The one that I recovered looked like it had sealed all of the gasses (and hence would have gotten pushed as mush as possible). However, I can't be sure that all of the available pressure got behind the recovered bullet.


[smilie=w: Your welcome. Those recovered bullets look exactly like the many 44 cal 260 grain bullets I have recovered. The wheel weight alloy cores really hold together well an I bet you have %90+ retained weight and a great looking mushroom.

Great pics too. I love the look of the recovered bullet. Have anymore you can post from all the angles? You will always get a concaved primer in the base of the bullet. Lots of PSI pushing it I guess.

I think the Hodgdon Tech was being a bit cautious or a little CYA on his part involving the reloading of the case but hold on to it for sure as there will be many in need of them for future 44 cal jackets.

Great work on the post Duke. I'll Get you set up with an ejector soon and you can really up production then. Feel free to pass on my offer to the many you show the bullets to. Yes I'll need to get some business cards made I suppose and maybe take up up on a web sight.

Great shooting,

BT Sniper

[DukeInFlorida]

The max amount of lead that you can stuff inside a 9mm case seems to be about 124/125 grains (depends on the mold that you use for making the cast cores). Add the weight of the 9mm cases to the equation, and the result is coming in at about 186 grains. That's for a .40 S&W bullet.

Other guys are working on similar projectiles for other calibers.

BT_Sniper is doing the swage tool set for under $150, including shipping. So, I can make endless amounts of jacketed bullets for the cost of a few thousand factory bullets.


What weight range bullets can you make with this setup? What's the cost of the tooling sans press?

[buck1]

""Fired 10 rounds, and got an avg speed of 333.9 fps
Highest was 402.4""
Wow thats kinda slow. I wonder whats going on with them.

[DukeInFlorida]

I'm guessing that because of the small amount of space inside the loaded case, the powder burn gasses have restrictions. The more I think about the powder I used, the less I am convinced it's a good powder for the task. I'll try a slower burning powder, and see how that does.


""Fired 10 rounds, and got an avg speed of 333.9 fps
Highest was 402.4""
Wow thats kinda slow. I wonder whats going on with them.

[BT Sniper]

"Slower burning powder" a good idea IMO. I would recamend starting loads for the published 200 grain data with the slower powders.

What I am impressed with is the bullet you recovered that expanded as much as it did going so slow. It should perform very impressive at normal speeds for this weight bullet.

BT

[phatman]

You might want to check the calibration of that chronograph (sp) before you get carried away.
At that low a speed the gun should not have cycled!

John

[ANeat]

I agree with John. You stated earlier that the recoil was pretty snappy, that dont equal 400fps. The data and predicted velocity are probably pretty close.

On my G22 anything in the low 700fps range will just barely cycle the gun (180gr bullet) Ane recoil is pretty mild.

If the crono is too close to the firing position it can pick up a lot of the stuff coming out of the barrel throwing the readings off. 15 or 20 feet away is usually enough.

Run a few known loads over the chrono just to verify.

[sargenv]

On the other thread, it was noted that the powder choices he had on hand were way too fast for such heavyweights.. It would likely do you good to choose a denser, slower powder for safety reasons. Longshot seems to put about the most punch in a very tiny space. I will soon be loading my swaged bullets with a choice of Power Pistol, Longshot, Blue Dot, SR 4756, a fast lot of WC 820 that is more equiv to HS7, and maybe one or two others.. the difference 'tween me and you though is that I will be loading mine out as long as possible for a 1911 frame Para and a S&W 610 utilizing the 40 S&W case. You may also want to swap out to something as slow as Herco or AA #7 or something similar since you appear to have very limited case capacity. Longshot might also be a good idea.

[DukeInFlorida]

Brian,

I tried swaging .380 auto case (unannealed) with a 124 grain 9mm core, and was easily able to swage it out to the .400 size. Other than some dimpling issues (because the core was oversized and the brass was unannealed), it worked fine to give me a shorter .40 S&W bullet.

I'm giving thought to using my bottom pour pot to dispense just enough lead to fill some .380 auto cases. The 650 degree lead should anneal the brass instantly.

I'm striving to come up with a much shorter bullet, so that I have more air space in the assembled case, alleviating the pressure issues.

Ideas?? Comments??

BTW, I do not have a .380 bullet mold, so will just try the "pouring lead" routine for now.

[warf73]

Brian,
I'm striving to come up with a much shorter bullet, so that I have more air space in the assembled case, alleviating the pressure issues.

Ideas?? Comments??

BTW, I do not have a .380 bullet mold, so will just try the "pouring lead" routine for now.

I'm in the same boat as you. I'm looking for lighter boolit also for cores.

[BT Sniper]

Well lets see. The Lee 356-102-1R 2 cavity mold will reduce your core by atleast 20 grains. Then you will need to trim the 9mm case to make it shorter. Then experiment with the smaller HP punch or the flat nose punch for shorter bullets.

I still think you guys will be able to safely shoot these longer heave bullet acuratly and safely with care full loading practice and slower powders. I know a few have had luck and good results this way.

As for triming the 9mm case there has been some posts latly reguarding this very topic. A harbor freight chop saw and a jig for use with a shell holder will make short work of triming cases I know I was able to easliy trim over 500 an hour to with in .005 or better on length with this method. Check my posts its in there. Think I also posted link to it on one of the current threads reguarding the .451 from40 S&W case daywalker posted though not completly sure where I put it.

Anything can be done but I think the trimed 9mm is still the best option. When I get a spare moment I'll make up a couple to see what they lok like.

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

Yes, but I don't want to have to go through all sorts of extra steps to make a jacketed bullet. The .40 S&W suffers from pressure issues when the bullet length is too long. By using a .380 case, with poured lead, it might create a short enough bullet to work better.

Yes, I was able to get a 9mm case to work, with the 124 grain core. But, the pressures were showing their ugly head , and velocity was barely BB gun speed.

I have a buddy that I am trying to get together with, who has some 380's for me (a few hundred). I really wish I hadn't traded those 600 pcs (of .380 auto) a few weeks ago.

[rockrat]

you might check your chrony and see if you had it set to meters/sec. That would put your loads in the 1000f/s range

[notenoughguns]

you might check your chrony and see if you had it set to meters/sec. That would put your loads in the 1000f/s range

That was my first thought .

[DukeInFlorida]

No, chrony was set right. I did my testing right in the middle of checking some 30-06 work ups, and those numbers were right in the correct range, as expected.


you might check your chrony and see if you had it set to meters/sec. That would put your loads in the 1000f/s range

[DukeInFlorida]

I did a brief test today with some 380 auto cases. I first tried some with the 124 grain cores. Way too much lead, and I ended up with a lead nose bullet that wasn't any shorter than the 9mm cases, and weighed just about the same.

I tried filling a few up with molten lead.

Those slightly overfilled, and I began to worry about consistant weight. So, I came up with a short term plan:

I placed the filled 380 case in the swage die set, and gave it some pressure. Enough to give me a centered deep dimple. I chose a somewhat large drill bit, and carefully drilled out the excess lead to the edge of the brass. Sweet.

I put that back in the swage press, and started increasing the depth until I achieved max pressure. Obviously, there was still too much lead. A bit of a lead nose resulted, which I don't want. Drilled again, and removed lead to the much smaller case mouth now. Swaged again, and then cleaned up the small amount of flash at the case mouth.

Sweet!

I now have a 162.5 grain (compared to a 186 grain) bullet, .400 in diameter, and only .0636 long. Perfect length, and a great weight! The .400 diameter area is long enough to give me a perfect taper crimp, right where I would want it.

Weighing the resultant swaged bullet (162.5 gr), and comparing that to the weight of an empty case (45.4 gr), I see that I need a core that weighs 117.1 grains to make a perfect swaged bullet from a 380 auto brass case.

Anyone got any ideas as to how to make a 117.1 grain core repetitively, without a lot of steps?

Here's a image showing the results, compared to the 9mm big brother. 380 auto on left, 9mm on right:

[ANeat]

Anyone got any ideas as to how to make a 117.1 grain core repetitively, without a lot of steps?


Nice bullets Duke, as for a core mold you can either make up a blank block and make your own mold, or if something is small enough you may get away with making a mold on the back side of another mold.

Basicly make a multi cavity, machine the diameter and depth where you need it.

Ive made a couple 9 cavity 22 core molds like that. Ill be doing a core mold for my 45acp swc HP lead bullet swage setup this weekend

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=153&pictureid=1758

[uncleskippy]

Duke,

Have you thought of making a core mold? I am making one with some Alum. blocks and a piece of 1/4" steel for the cutting bar. I will look at getting about 4 cores per mold and will have to play with the depth to get the right grains I need.

[uncleskippy]

ANeat,

Like minds. You just type faster :bigsmyl2:

[ANeat]

Skip there are a few places online where you can calculate the "volume" needed for a core mold using pure lead.

You can play around with the diameter and depth to get real close to the desidred weight.

[ANeat]

ANeat,

Like minds. You just type faster :bigsmyl2:


Yep, I type slow, I must have started a little sooner:mrgreen:

[uncleskippy]

Can you think of any right of hand or a good google word(s) for a search?

Thanks

[uncleskippy]

This is what I found. I hope this helps.

Volume/Weight conversion for lead.

There is 2869.18685 grains per cubic inch of lead. To find the volume of a cylinder is PI * height * radius * radius (in inches)

Then take the volume answer and times by grains per cubic inch of lead to find the core weight

Example: I want to make .410 core mold

v = 3.141593 * .600" * .205" * .205"

V = 0.079215267495

grains = 0.079215267495 * 2869.18685 (grains per cubic inch of lead)

grains = 227.28340

Also - lead weighs 6.55609194538 ounces per cubic inch and 0.40007727586 ounces per cubic centimeter

I hope this is right. I had to get the data and formulas from different sites.

:redneck:

[buck1]

There is a guy on ebone that sells a single cav adjustable core mold for lots of differnt cals. $45.00 I think. Also you may try buckshot. He has made them i think....Buck

[ANeat]

Ugh, I wouldnt want a single cavity, About the easiest is to drill out a Lee 6 cavity, just make sure you start out with a mold smaller than your core. Pretty easy even with a drill press.

Here is the calculator I used. Just select circle, lead, and then you can play with the dimensions to get the weight needed. You just need to convert the weight to grains.

1 gram is 15.432 grains, or you can do that here http://www.unitconversion.org/weight/grams-to-grains-conversion.html

http://www.matweb.com/tools/weightcalculator.aspx


So say for my 45 bullets mentioned I wanted to make a flat bottomed core mold with a 7/16 endmill.

Using the calc tools a .4375 diameter core .465 deep would get me a core just a touch over 200 grains

[bohica2xo]

THIS (http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/cart.cgi?1269042667.5810=90308) plus a drill bit. Problem solved.

B.

[BT Sniper]

Yep I got me a 6 cavity .358 158 grain WC to drillout for my 44 cores. Have done this with nearly all my molds execpt the 125 .356 for the 40 cal cores. Like it was said, easy with a drill press.

[MIBULLETS]

I saw this on Corbin's site. It has weights for pure lead for specific lengths and diameters.

http://www.corbins.com/corewts.htm

[buck1]

Yes a single would be slow , but you could make a "master core " to be copied in the six cav. Was my line of thought. .....Buck

[DukeInFlorida]

Using the above resources, I see that I need a core:

.355 diameter (fits in 380 case, same diameter as the 9mm)

.410 length

Gives weight of 116.380044047 grains. Since we would be drilling this with a pointy drill bit, the resultant weight would be a bit more, so drill to just short of .410, and then start tweaking. Gotta find me some aluminum to work with.

Or.... light just goes on!!

Anybody ever work with the BACK SIDE of a Lee bullet mold???? I mean... it already has the handles, remove the sprue plate, and put it on the back side. Drill some holes. Why not??
Gotta go look at one an see if there's clearance for some holes.

[ANeat]

You can use the back of the mold if there is enough depth. I havent tried it on a Lee but at the least you would probably need to smooth it off with a mill, then drill the sprue holes.

[BT Sniper]

Anybody ever work with the BACK SIDE of a Lee bullet mold???? I mean... it already has the handles, remove the sprue plate, and put it on the back side. Drill some holes. Why not??
Gotta go look at one an see if there's clearance for some holes.


Yep this works.

Reuse the spure cutter and you have enough room for 5 cavities.

[buck1]

Round ball molds give good room, at least in lyman molds. If you use a LEE use a 6 cav as the 2 cav have alignment bars on the botom

[yobohadi]

What if you used this mold? http://www.grafs.com/product/261996

It is a 308, 113 grain bullet so it would get you close to the weight you are looking for. Would it be too long to swage right?