Win 94 44 mag mold advice, load advice

[akajun]

I have a 1968 winchester 94 in 44 mag in great shape. Not a scratch on the gun. The bore slugs at .431 and in developing loads for this rifle, my results have been disapointing.

First of commercially bought lead bullets are usually too small, too hard, and lead badly. I tried several different ones with poor results. I figured the large bore was the problem.
Using Hornady 240gr jhp's I am getting 3-4 inch groups at 50yds. with 24grs of 2400. I think some of this may be the crappy sights on the rifle and will be planning on replacing them soon, but I still think it should do better than that.
One load that does really well is a lee 200gr rn plain base. No leading and very good accuracy at 50yds with 18gr of 2400 its shooting 2 inches or so but is a very anemic load. However when you start cranking up the powder , it looks more like a shotgun pattern.

As much as I despise gas checks on handgun rounds may I have to go to a checked bullet. Anyone have any experiece with this gun made in the 60's? I understand that the barrells on these are different than the ae guns and later models.

[dubber123]

Welcome to the forum. My first suggestion would be to get some .432" or larger boolits. Make sure the expander ball in your dies isn't too small, as this will just squeeze your boolits down when seating. I suspect a fatter slug is whats needed. I have seen .001" make a tremendous difference before. Good luck.

[akajun]

Sorry didnt clarify, the lee 200 gr cast that I used I sized to .432. They shot fine at low velocities, but I would like something a little more powerfull and heavy if possible. I was looking for a mold recomendation for the rifle as I understand that they are picky as to what bullets they like.

[winelover]

I have a 1968 winchester 94 in 44 mag in great shape. Not a scratch on the gun. The bore slugs at .431 and in developing loads for this rifle, my results have been disapointing.

First of commercially bought lead bullets are usually too small, too hard, and lead badly. I tried several different ones with poor results. I figured the large bore was the problem.
Using Hornady 240gr jhp's I am getting 3-4 inch groups at 50yds. with 24grs of 2400. I think some of this may be the crappy sights on the rifle and will be planning on replacing them soon, but I still think it should do better than that.
One load that does really well is a lee 200gr rn plain base. No leading and very good accuracy at 50yds with 18gr of 2400 its shooting 2 inches or so but is a very anemic load. However when you start cranking up the powder , it looks more like a shotgun pattern.

As much as I despise gas checks on handgun rounds may I have to go to a checked bullet. Anyone have any experiece with this gun made in the 60's? I understand that the barrells on these are different than the ae guns and later models.


I don't have a Win in 44 but I do have a Marlin which has a reputation for oversize bores. I don't think .431 is oversize. However, some commercial casters offer their products in larger sizes. Beartooth bullets comes to mind but there are many more. Just search their websites.

IMHO, if you a using 24 grains of 2400 with ANY bullet in 44 mag you are PUSHING THE ENVELOPE and are asking for TROUBLE (safety wise). Furthermore, 18 grains with a 200 grainer is far from anemic, especially out of a carbine. Insead of CRANKING up the powder, try backing it OFF. Load development is the KEY. Use a CURRENT loading manual and start at the minimum charges and load 10 of each in .5 grain increments up to the posted MAXIMUMS, then shoot for GROUPS off a sturdy rest. Keep records (targets) at known distances with weather conditions noted. Ideally, you will find the best load before reaching unsafe pressures. BTW, 22 grains of 2400 use to be the acceptable for the OLD Hercules 2400. With the NEW Alliant 2400 it is LESS!

Gas checks aren't the CURE ALL for cast boolets, they just make things a little easier.
Lately, I'm tending to lean more to non-checked boolets for economy as well as easing the workload.

Without more specifics it's hard to make anymore recommendations. I'm sure someone else will chime in.

Winelover:lovebooli

[akajun]

Winelover thanks for your advice, I am familiar with load development, and I have done so with the loads listed. I do not see any signs of over pressure such as flattened or enlarged primers, and have measured by case length growth which has only grown.001 inch per loading or so if at all. According to my loading manuals, which are current, these loads are safely under pressure.

I did work up the 24 gr load with the 2400 in both bullets, thats where I got the two loads mentioned. The 200 gr will not shoot anything more than 18gr and the 240 jacketed shot the same size group, only ****fing upwards, with 18 grs on up. So I might as well shoot as fast as I can.

I gues what I'm looking for is a mold recomendation. I have looked into the lee 310 gr which I would love to use to poke hole in deer and hogs. I have also looked at the lyman 429640 and 429421, and 429244. I am just hopeing someone else has tried these bullets as I hate wasting time and money on moulds that I will have to sell at a loss later.

[O.S.O.K.]

I would suggest trying the Lee 310 gas check mold. I use this boolit with success in both of my 44 Mag carbines (Marlin and Rossi). I size mine to .431" because the Marlin's bore is .430 and the Rossi's is .429".

I use wheel wieght or Lyman No. 2 alloy and get .432" boolits from the two cavity mold. I size them and apply the gas checks in a Lee sizer die kit that I've polished a bit to open it to the desired .431". Lube used is LLA.

I push this boolit to near-max pressure and get very good results - 2-3" groupings at 100 yards with the iron sights. The load is 21.0 grains of H110 for 1550-1600 fps from the 20" carbines.

Here's a pic of the boolit next to a dummy cartridge that I used when first loading:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4046/4351511014_507f01cf72.jpg

Oh and the Marlin's twist rate is 1:38 and the Rossi's 1:20 and it shoots very well from both.

The bonus here is that the Lee mold is very inexpensive at $25 or less - and that includes the handles! Little to lose in trying it out.

ETA - this boolit was a little sticky in chambering in my Marlin. I chamfered the chamber a wee bit and now it loads smooth as silk... just fyi - I'm thinking it will be fine in your Winny. Further, I just popped a 120 pound boar last weekend with the Marlin and this load - I assure you it works fantastically on hogs.

[winelover]

I gues what I'm looking for is a mold recomendation. I have looked into the lee 310 gr which I would love to use to poke hole in deer and hogs. I have also looked at the lyman 429640 and 429421, and 429244. I am just hopeing someone else has tried these bullets as I hate wasting time and money on moulds that I will have to sell at a loss later.[/QUOTE]

I like and use the 240 grain Lyman 429667 RNFP Cowboy mould as it feeds well in most LA's. It's a plain base design. I took a deer this season with this bullet(WW) and 9.0 grains of Unique which is an ANEMIC load. Deer only went 50 yards. It's beyond me why anyone needs 340 grain boolet to poke a hole in deer and or pigs. A 44 caliber hole is a 44 caliber hole is a 44 caliber hole![smilie=p:

Winelover:drinks:

[akajun]

Old habits die hard I guess. You track less animals when the bullet goes all the way through, and the ones you do track dont go far and it looks like a crime scene on the ground so their easy to find.

Though I will confess I kill most of my pigs with a 22lr, they are in a trap though.

Guess I give the lee 310 a try.

[jlchucker]

I've got a Winchester trapper in 44 mag, built during the early angle-eject era (no safeties, but a rebounding hammer). I never slugged the bore, but I've shot countless cast boolets through it--mostly 429215, sized .429 or .430. With either, I can, from a bench, consistently hit clay pigeon fragments that are laying around on the 100 yd berm at my gun club. This little gun has a Williams receiver sight mounted. The lever link rattles, and I've always said I hate this gun, but it's accurate and dependable. It works well with the lighter boolet, and also with 240 gr Winchester FNHP's. For some reason it doesn't group as well with 240 gr cast boolets. I just never worked up a load for them, though--because the 210 gr Lyman 429215 seems to work so well.

[kelbro]

I could not get the SWC Lyman bullets to chamber well in my Marlin. They might in a Winchester. The RD 265gr cycles very well in mine.

[NHlever]

I have a newer Winchester Trails End .44 mag, and I like the Lyman 429244 over 23.0 grains of H-110 with mag primers. My rifle isn't fussy though, and I do want to try some 300 grainers sometime.

[Fat-beeman]

I have killed lot of deer out 70 yd with a 240 gr hollow point pb over 15 gr of blue dot most fell within 5 yds.
I also strart very mild loads and work up a grain at a time till I get good group. if it holds under 3 inches at 50-70 yds I am happy also I shoot as dropped from mold un sized just lubed.
Don

[30hrrtt]

I have the 94 trapper in 44 mag and have take 3 buck with it in the last 2 years. I have a 1 x 4 scope on it. With Hornady 240 xtp and 24 of 296, it shoots just under 1 1/2" at 100 yards. Nosler 240 sp shoot about 5 inches with same powder and primer. The Hornady is .430 and the Nosler .429.

I am just beginning to work up loads for cast. The 429244 with 23 of 296 shoots just under 2" at 100 and I have a feeling that will be my go to bullet. The only drawback is that it weighs in at 270 with ww. I don't think that much is required for deer. My 240 xtp traveled through 27 inches of deer this year and exited.

I've tried several loadings with 2400 and also some 300 grain wfn but could not get either to group yet.

[OBXPilgrim]

My 1972 SRC Win M94 44Mag shoots the 310gr Lee great. I'm pushing it around 1550 fps with 2400 powder. My Lee 310 fell at .432" which is the same bore diameter as my rifle. It shoots better with the 310 than with a 285/290gr "Wide-Fat .44" group buy from back in 2006 (my first). That would be the mold I'd try first if I were you. It's a real thumper.

I've shot the Lyman 429215 215gr & it was ok, but never really got the groups I wanted. I didn't try that many powders with it, though.

The Lee 240gr SWC TL shot good groups loaded to 44 spl levels, but I wanted a bit more speed.

[30hrrtt]

OBXPilgrim

What load are you using with 2400 and the 300 grain in your 94?

[Lloyd Smale]

like jlchucker the trapper i have seems to shoot just about everythng i put in it well. Quite a contrast to my 44p marlin that is about the most finiky gun i own

[OBXPilgrim]

My keeper load of 2400 was with 16.5gr - worked up to slightly more than that, but the accuracy suffered. I think I started with 15.0.

And, BTW, it was seated like OSOKs photo above.

[Rodfac]

I've had great luck with Lyman's 429215 gc, sized .432" and lubed with LLA. That bullet drops from the mold at .433" when cast from ww. I've chrono'd loads to 1300 fps with the gc in my Marlin 336 .44 Magnum. The gun has a .432+" bore. I use WLP caps, and Win 231 or Unique with no leading in it's micro-groove rifling. It's not a 94 Winchester but that bullet, at 220 gr with the check has worked in every .44 Magnum and Special I've tried it in. Regards, Rodfac

[Slow Elk 45/70]

I also like the 429215 in my marlin 1894 , I use the same load in my 44 Ruger Black hawks in 44 mag....20 gr of 2400 shoot fine in both , WFM...[smilie=1:

[jlchucker]

Slow Elk, I've used between 18.5 and 21 grains of 2400 with that 429215 myself over the years. IMO that boolit, with that powder, worked so well that I never did get around to buying a mold for a heavier boolit for my trapper. Not much point, because the biggest thing around here to hunt is Black Bear, and what comes out of the barrel with that particular loading has a lot more whomp than the old 200 grain 44-40 that the old geezers around here used to use on the same type of game, back in the day. That 429215 is a great boolit--very much overlooked by most shooters who've never tried them.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

jlcucker, You right on sir, whether it's a winnie or Marlin , they just plain shoot, I can't vouch for the replicas, but as you posted the powder and range work...just find out where your sweet spot is....IMHO

[ironcowboy]

It's beyond me why anyone needs 340 grain boolet to poke a hole in deer and or pigs. A 44 caliber hole is a 44 caliber hole is a 44 caliber hole![smilie=p:

Winelover:drinks:



haha, its that small issue of ballistics too. :)
:kidding:

[WyrTwister]

Sorry didnt clarify, the lee 200 gr cast that I used I sized to .432. They shot fine at low velocities, but I would like something a little more powerfull and heavy if possible. I was looking for a mold recomendation for the rifle as I understand that they are picky as to what bullets they like.


What kind of lube ? I Use Lee Liquid Alox on most of my cast bullets .

God bless
Wyr

[WyrTwister]

I could not get the SWC Lyman bullets to chamber well in my Marlin. They might in a Winchester. The RD 265gr cycles very well in mine.

My lever guns did not like the SWC's I had been casting for wheel guns . I bought the Lee 6 cavity .44 RNL mold , ~ 240 train , Feeds slick .

God bless
Wyr

[Larry Gibson]

I've worked with 3 M94 .44s (owned one). Since I also have .44 magnum handguns I always restricted my loads to those that did not excede what was safe in the handguns.

I quickly found that the classic Keith load of 22 gr 2400 under a 429421 ran 1610 + fps in the 16" trapper with very poor accuracy. It did not shoot any better in the two carbines. The reason was the velocity was too much for the PB bullet. Backing the velocity down to 1400 fps gave very good accuracy. Hoever I settled on my standard medium range revolver load with this bullet. Load is 8.5 gr Unique for 1150 fps out of the 16" trapper. With the longer 20" barreled carbines accuracy wasn't as good unless the load was dropped to 8 gr to get the velocity back down to 1150 fps.

My "go to" cast hunting bullet for the .44 magnum (rifle or revolver) is Lyman's 429244. Mine also casts out at 270 gr with WW/lead at 50/50. At 1650 fps out of the Trapper over 24 gr of H110 they are very accurate (2" groups at 100 yards with Lyman Aperture rear sight) and deadly. That load pushed close to 1800 fps in the one Carbine I tried it in. It also is an excellent hunting load in my Colt Anaconda and Ruger FTBH.

I managed to kill several deer with the Trapper using that 429244/H110 load that were injured (I was an LEO in NE Oregon for some years) and I never had a bullet not go through and through. I even had one raking shot on a large mulie and the bullet exited. Come to think of it I've not recovered any shot from a revolver either.

Larry Gibson

[HamGunner]

I have a fairly early 94 Win. in .44 mag. (I think I looked it up once and believe it was made in 1969) that has the slow twist. I believe 1 in 38, and the shallow micro groove type bore. It does not feed the Lyman 429421 in mag. brass so I did not bother to get a 429244gc as I assumed it would not feed either. It probably would with just a little work with a file, but I tried the 429215gc instead and with 25gr. of 296 pushing a .431 dia. 225gr., it will most likely group better than I can shoot it with open sights and I have been very happy with my 50yd results.

I have chronographed that load in the 6 1/2" OM Flattop at 1,500 fps, but have not chonied the rifle. I used that load to take a middle sized whitetail doe this year, using it in the Flattop, and just like any other cast that I have killed deer with, it shot clean through the chest. Like Larry was saying, I have not seen a cast bullet stop in a deer yet. I suppose the slow twist barrel on the rifle likes the shorter Lyman bullet well enough, so that is what I will continue to shoot in it. No need for a heavier bullet, in my opinion. No leading with about 12 BHN bullet at .431 dia., but I may hone out my mold a bit and try some lead that is a little softer. Maybe, I can drop a bullet that is at least that diam. with some wheelweight/lead alloy.

[w30wcf]

Something you can try - poly shot buffer as a gas check.
A year or so ago, I wanted to develop a load for my .44-40 that replicated the old W.H.V. (Winchester High Velocity) cartridge (1,600 f.p.s. 200 gr. jacketed ), but with a plain based bullet.

I tried several recipies using 4759, 2400, and 4227 and once the velocity passed 1,400 f.p.s. the groups really opened up.

Sooo, I tried using PSB as a gas check. Two loads that shot well at 1,600 f.p.s. were 19/2400 and 21/4227. The powder was put into the cases first and then, I ran the shot buffer through the powder measure.

Here's a target fired at 50 yards.:)
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/44-40HVcastMay09jpg.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/189444-40.jpg

w30wcf

[Deputy Dog]

hay cuz Ihave killed more deer with a 44 than any of my other rifles mainly a 788 in 44. using a 180 xtp.Had a trapper let it get away loaded with a lyman deversater it would put a world of hurt on deer.It was very accurate. trouble i had was sighted in at 50 yds it would shoot 12 to 14 inches low at100 yds not enough gas tank.After thatI stayed with 180-200 grain boolits. And am well pleased

[softpoint]

I have a bunch of .44 molds. The only one I've seen fit to buy in 4 cavity is 429244.

[looseprojectile]

The Ranch Dog .432 265 has been the only .44 boolit I have shot since I started using it. My mould casts .432" and in my alloy, fairly soft, with check and lube are 272 grains. I use Alox and wax for lube and get no leading. Really clean bore.
The RD boolit has no limitations or problems as to feeding and length. I use mine mostly in the
Rossi 92. They feed and shoot better than any other in the Ruger semi auto.
In the Ruger 20 grains of H110 won't operate the action so 22 grains is minimum.
I don't enjoy the recoil of max loads in the .44 rifles. 20 grains is accurate in the lever guns and will shoot all the way through about any critter.
Michael at Ranch Dog Outdoors sometimes has used and seconds moulds on his website. Did I say I really like this boolit?

Life is good

[mobullets]

I have shot many of the Lyman 429244 sized to .429 over 23gr of WW296 & CCI350 through a S&W M29-2 6" revolver. The results have always been spectacular and if that's any indication, if it feeds well in your rifle it should give exemplary performance there as well. I have never run the load over a chrony but since the results wouldn't apply to a rifle it's moot in this discussion. I can tell you that it will penetrate almost 4 plates of treated 10ga steel at 25yds. The recovered bullets, less the gas-checks, weighed 255gr and had expanded to .75 caliber, on average for 5 consecutive shots. I think you'd probably need 5 or 6 steel plates to stop it out of a rifle. The specifics of the cast bullet are that it was cast from a 200# lot of mixed wheel weights, quenched from the mold, Hornady gas checks and the lube used is straight from the oilfield as it is a beeswax formula used to lubricate stuffing boxes on pump jacks. I've used it on max loaded cast bullets in both .357Mag and .44mag ammo and suffered only very slight to no leading. The 50# or so that I had is long gone and if anyone happens to know where they can get their hands on it, LET ME KNOW!