Are we the elite?

[Jim]

Something occured to me this morning that kinda' startled me. I got to thinking of percentages of people that do different things concerning firearms and I couldn't help but wonder about our status in the shooting sports.

First, there is a bracket of people that own firearms. Then, a smaller bracket of people that actually shoot them, be it at targets or game. A still smaller bracket includes those that reload for their firearms. Yet again, a smaller bracket that handloads.

Now, for the sake of clarity, let me stop here and explain myself. I think there is a difference between RELOADING and HANDLOADING. At the risk of splitting hairs over semantics, I think RELOADERS are those that pick up a manual, assemble components based on the manual's data and shoot the ammunition. In my thinking, a HANDLOADER is one that goes beyond that limit to exploring and experimenting. This can include those that cast, swage or even turn bullets.

Look at the experiments that go on in the group that makes up this forum. Where else do you see people doing the likes of what Joe and 45 2.1 were doing to develop workable loading data to shoot cast bullets at over MACH II in the 6.5X55? Where else do you see people inventing tools to make gas checks? Where else can you find DOZENS of recipes for bullet lube? Where else do you see people designing bullets? There's a LOT of stuff goin' on in this group that most people never think of, nevermind heard of or even trying.

I wouldn't make a pimple on the backside of some of the guys on this forum. I've never contributed to the shooting sports by conjuring up some fabulous discovery or developing data that would turn the shooting community upside down. The only thing I have to offer is helping people with making & shooting gluelits and what I've learned about 7383. Even my knowledge and experience with 7383 is surpassed by others here.

There are so many people here that have contributed to this sport, I wonder if they can be counted. The knowledge that has been established & shared is fantastic. And the thinking, hypothesizing, experimenting and developing goes on and on, ad infinitum.

Can it be that we really are the elite?

[docone31]

I do not know if we are the elite, per se.
You are right about reloading, and handloading. However, I have yet to bring my loading tools to the range! Those boys are elite!
We are close though. We do try, and pass it on.
Perhaps the armchair almost elite?

[felix]

Once the principles of the gun are fully understood, then you are among the elite. Once the curiosity is satisfied, then it is OK to retire and pick up another endeavor. ... felix

[wiljen]

Yes, I believe we do represent the best of the sport in the sense that we are the most inquisitive, inveterate experimenters and tinkerers. I think the term elite is too often used to represent aristocracy and general snobbery and we are far from either of those. I think we offer the best of what the thinking common man has to offer. We value thought process, testing of hypothesis, alternative methodologies, and logical thought.

[oldhickory]

Well Jim, a lot of people think I'm extreme for casting handgun, muzzle loader, and .45/70 boolits, but when they find out I also cast and use boolits for such beasts as .30/06, .308, .30WCF, .30Army, etc. they look at me like I should be locked away. "You're a nut! You'll ruin your guns! A .30/06 isn't supposed to shoot cast boolits!" Oh well, it's a lot of fun shooting a nice cast group out of an '06 when the guy next to you can't get his Wheatherby to shoot better than 2" off the bench and tosses it in his caddy-lack and drives away mad!:mrgreen:

My brother, (a pretty fair hand loader) won't have anything to do with making boolits, he thinks there's some kind voo-doo or something involved. In fact he's just plain out and out too lazy to bother casting. To his credit though, he doesn't bum boolits, he will plunk down for commercial cast once in a while...

When shooting boolits out of a rifle, I usually try to get a bench away from other shooters and just be by myself and my boolits.

[kir_kenix]

I think that casting is just another more specialized part of the sport. You have those IPSC guys who shoot thousands of rounds a month, the benchrest crowd who punch itty bitty holes at super long range, the sporting clay crowd etc etc etc...Each could be said to be the pinnacle of the shooting sport, it really just depends what your looking for. I'd say that casting is up there tho personally...theres just way too much knowlege here on this site.

I really have to bow down to the knowledge that alot of LR benchrest shooters have too. Whenever I go to a meet I'm really impressed by how much these guys know about balistics, wind doping, mirage etc. But then again, its just another facet of the sport and those same guys might not know the first thing about ACWW's lol

[Blazin]

I think that casting is just another more specialized part of the sport. You have those IPSC guys who shoot thousands of rounds a month, the benchrest crowd who punch itty bitty holes at super long range, the sporting clay crowd etc etc etc...Each could be said to be the pinnacle of the shooting sport, it really just depends what your looking for. I'd say that casting is up there tho personally...theres just way too much knowlege here on this site.

I totally agree with the above. Each shooting discipline have become so specialized that each comes to the table with its own unique skills and knowledge. There's a guy on her (I think it's 44man) who shoots IHMSA with Dan Wessons, his posts blow me away, very interesting stuff. I shoot IPSC and my focus is on gaining a zen awareness as I'm shooting. There's a local guy who shoots F-class and he is an encyclopedia of knowledge on the most specific aspects of his rifles and scopes. As for cast bullets this is THE place...

[mike in co]

well i'll go one furrther.

i have used the term several times....ammo crafter.

sorta what you are pointing out, but also understands case prep, bullet selection, powder selection, precision in weighing all in the hunt for precision shooting.

now not all is necessary for short range pistol plinking, but for 100 or more target shooting.

a classic example of a reloader vs an ammo crafter can be seen in pic in a rick jamison article on moly coating. his case prep was so poor the pulled bullets had deep scratches from running into the case mouth in seating. obviously no proper bell nor chamfer.

mike in co

[Lead Fred]

I'd say we are more knowledgeable than the average reloader.

The Bench rest reloader are the elite

They are way more anal than we are :mrgreen:

[9.3X62AL]

I like Wiljen's description. The term "elite" does have some aristocratic baggage attached to it that kinda rubs me the wrong way, so I wouldn't use the term to describe myself. Kir made some good points about specialization in the many shooting disciplines, too. The willingness to share the explorations runs counter to "elitism", also. In the modern sense, the term denotes exclusivity--so, out it goes.

Not trying to shoot down Jim's observation, because I'm sure it comes from a positive and inclusive viewpoint. Speaking for myself, I'm just plain old regular folk, one who became interested in the hobby crafting of boolits to service calibers not catered to by component makers. That condition has improved considerably over the 29 years I've been pouring The Silver Stream, but the pouring continues apace. Why? Cost is part of it, certainly (another torpedo beneath the water line to exclusivity--sorry, Jim). Accuracy is another, and the more likely long-term motivator. Cast boolits shoot VERY WELL, often better than their red-coated counterparts--sometimes MUCH BETTER.

It boils down to this, for me--I like the overall performance advantages offered by cast boolits in my rifles and handguns. Casting keeps that pursuit affordable. I'm not the deeply esoteric hobbyist that a few of the experimenters here are, by no means. I enjoy the crafting, I enjoy the chase, and I enjoy the shooting. I can do a lot more shooting via the use of cast boolits, so the hobby sort of "feeds itself" to some extent.

That's my dos centavos.

[Houndog]

I'd say we are more knowledgeable than the average reloader.

The Bench rest reloader are the elite

They are way more anal than we are :mrgreen:

I'm one of the Benchrest shooter/ammo crafter/ bullet makers, and have been for more than 20 years, but the elite label doesn't apply to any one dicipline in my opinion! Yes we Benchresters make itty bitty holes in paper at long range, but take the BEST benchrest shooter you can find and give him a silouette handgun or even a Shutzen rifle and most likely he'll turn into a mediocre shooter at best! There are people that excell in EVERY shooting dicipline and very rarely will ANYONE master more than one. There are elite shooters WITHIN every dicipline and I think we need to recognize that fact.

BTW: The people I consider the elite in Benchrest are Tony Boyer and Wayne Campbell. They have represented the USA in the world championships MANY times and both are members of the Benchrest Hall of Fame.

[Doc Highwall]

I am not the one for fancy words or great writing skills but this is my view of what we do here. To be a good smallbore shooter you have to be a good shooter first and minor tinker for like torque testing bedding and a ammo tester for different lots. To be a good highpower shooter you do the same as a smallbore shooter except now you get into selecting componets to reload like store bought bullets. Now to be a good shooter of cast boolits you have to do the same as a smallbore and highpower shooter along with having a understanding of casting a good boolit along with a better understanding of math and physics as they relate to lead boolits and the relationship / senergy of it.

[felix]

Houndog, those guys are shooters allright, but they have the capability of being weather men at the same time. That is rare, indeed. I would equate those two specifically to those old timers using their flinters over extremely varied distances (in gales to us BR folks) to hit their so-called targets of any realistic size. Those latter guys would be called riflemen by me, and the BR shooters of today would be called weathermen having a good supply of machinists in the background. Just about all of us would be in-between these two modalities somewhere. ... felix

[cptinjeff]

My perspective...and sort of in line with the original post.

I have been a shooter and hunter since I was old enough to hold a gun. I have been a reloader for over 20 years. The last 10 years I have hunted exclusively with iron sighted hand guns (when not with a bow). Two years ago I started casting.

When I started loading my own...My knowledge and involvement in the sport jumped tenfold. I learned so much from the experience and so much I didn't know I didn't know.

Then I started casting. Wow....I had no idea what I would be getting into (as far as firearms knowledge goes). I had been using commercially cast bullets for a long time with excellent results and had no idea how much went into it. I'm not pretending to be anything but a "babe in the woods" when it comes to the knowledge on this board....but I learned so much more about firearm dimensions and hand loading, and alloys, and lube, and melting metal, and so many other things tha go into making great ammo in the last two years than I did in the 20 previous years of loading ammo (Yes...I'm an experimenter and not just an assembler of parts). This board is great and I'm thankful to be part of it and learning more every day.

I also shoot IPSC and have a friend who is a big shot in the shotgun sports. Those disciplines have a unbelievable amount of specific knowledge and skills as well as many talented people to compete at the highest levels (I'm not one of them but have a blast and am learning a lot there as well.):veryconfu

The point....yes....The step from loading your own ammo to casting and loading is a huge step in understanding how things work....but so are a lot of other aspects of shooting and "elite" is getting to be a "dirty" word these day. I'm glad this board isn’t elite or I probably wouldn't get the plain old matter of fact answers to all my silly questions that have saved me years and years of trial and error.

Now I can spend those trial and error years going higher in the sport and not just getting up to speed.
[smilie=w:

[454PB]

I also don't like the term "elite".

For me, loading fired brass is reloading, loading virgin brass is handloading.

When I use the shooting range, I try to stay to myself. This is not because I don't love to talk guns, casting, swaging, and handloading, but because I end up answering questions instead of shooting.

It's amazing to me how many misconceptions there are about shooting home made boolits (or bullets).

[cptinjeff]

Oh yeah, and I forgot to add


MAN I WISH I STARTED BOOLIT MAKING 15 YEARS AGO:killingpc

[pjh421]

Hey let's not throw that elite word around too much. I mean I don't want to have to start wearing a beret or anything.

When I was growing up, there were only two people in our extended family who had anything to do with guns. One is a farmer and he just regarded them as semi-necessary tools. He certainly showed no interest in them beyond being supportive of my interest. The other guy was a quasi-farmer and you could fairly say this one is a gun nut. I say this in a complimentary manner. He's the one who got me thinking it was actually possible for me to reload for my guns. This was during the period when I was still in high school.

I graduated and spent the next 20 years in the Army. Now if you had to guess, you might think this would be Mecca for a kid like that as far as becoming aquainted with fellow firearms enthusiasts. Not so.

I might have run into a total of 5 or 10 reloaders during this time and I assure you none of them cast their own boolits much less understood some of the things that are common knowledge amongst the members of this forum regarding the procedures.

Yes, it was slim pickin's finding people to learn from. We should all be glad that Al Gore invented the internet when he did ;). I did a lot of reading on subjects related to the science of shooting but there were very few people to discuss it with and fewer still who could help solve common problems like why my guns leaded up so much.

Anyway, from where I sit, this forum is a somewhat rarified atmosphere. Elite may not be the exact word we're looking for but this group of people is quite a distillation that's not easy to find. Thank you CB forum members for bringing my understanding of our hobby into the sunlight.

Paul

[Doc Highwall]

"Doctorate Degree in Galena Transformation":cbpour:

[Ed Barrett]

I started reloading over 50 years ago and for the next 30 years I read all the things in gun books, Like never do any thing that isn't in a loading manual, never duplex load powder, never use bullets lighter or heavier than factory loads for a certain cartridge. I started doing some things such as duplex and triplex loads, with my chrony and my eyes I can pretty well judge pressure, I use surplus and non standard powders for different uses than "normal". Most of the other people on this site are in the same bracket or even more advanced. I don't post too often but read post every day and enjoy myself every day.
I don't think I'm elite, but I like to learn a little every day. Some people stop wanting to learn pretty young and they might as well pat the dirt over them, because they aren't living.

[HORNET]

Elite, huh? Well, it does sound better than Lead Lobbing Lunatic....

[ghh3rd]

Boolit casters might be considered an even more 'elite' sub-group of handloaders. The trip to the range starts off scrounging lead...

[Freightman]

"Elite"! bull I am just old, broke, and crippled up, and can't afford factory ammo or bullets!

[Jim]

Well, I guess I picked a very poor choice of words to describe what I had in mind. Sorry, fellas. I apologize.

[sargenv]

I too am one of those "IPSC guys who shoots thousands of rounds a month" and I tend to do things the hard way in that I do it with a 6 or 8 shooter with that round thing that holds my boolits..

I've always wanted to cast my own and I now kick myself for not starting sooner. I do know there are few people somewhat local to me with the knowledge I have of the different powders and how they affect different loads.. A lot of people twist my arm and ask what I think and what I know.. and I gladly offer it up. There are a LOT of people here who know WAY more than I do on the casting/swaging subject. I finally got to a point in the above mentioned sport where I couldn't get what I wanted, and had something made so that I could shoot exactly what I wanted.

So in a sense, this community has a lot of people from all over sharing somewhat arcane info in the hope of expanding it and keeping the info out there.. There are many things lost over the years due to no way to convey that info.. and now we have these forums that spread that info that might be all but lost unless someone has the idea to write a book and have us buy it whether it is a gun rag or an actual published volume.

[oldhickory]

Well, I guess I picked a very poor choice of words to describe what I had in mind. Sorry, fellas. I apologize.

No need to apologize,Jim. I wouldn't be able to phrase it any better either.:cbpour:

[S.R.Custom]

I don't think we're as elite as much as we are esoteric or arcane.

[wiljen]

I don't think we're as elite as much as we are esoteric or arcane.

Or maybe just outright nuts.

[1Shirt]

Been called a lot of things, but elite has never been one of them. Like a lot of others here, I am old, cheap, set in my ways and to old to change now. Started casting because I could not afford to shoot much jacketed stuff. Still can't! Do like the handloader title rather than reloader and the way it has been defined by some here. It would be boreing to have one load, with one blt, and do the same thing the same way every day. So--------guess I will just call myself a handloader of cast.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[ole 5 hole group]

Houndog, those guys are shooters allright, but they have the capability of being weather men at the same time. That is rare, indeed. I would equate those two specifically to those old timers using their flinters over extremely varied distances (in gales to us BR folks) to hit their so-called targets of any realistic size. Those latter guys would be called riflemen by me, and the BR shooters of today would be called weathermen having a good supply of machinists in the background. Just about all of us would be in-between these two modalities somewhere. ... felix

You might be right about some of the "new" BR shooters Felix, but I've seen quite a few who could shoot just about anything handed to them and shoot it fairly well at that. Reading the wind & mirage is just part of stretching your barrel a bit, as once you pass that 300 meter mark you better be a reader, otherwise you're just a talker. I shot BR for several years and some of the guys I shot BR with we also shot silhouette, high power and various disciplines of pistol - myself, I went PPC and 2700 in pistol competition. Most of us were just gunpowder junkies. When we go for prairie dogs we load off the tailgate, while the barrel cools down, a BR trait. The pickup has mudflaps, not tracks??

[jhrosier]

I don't know about elite. Maybe that is what the rest of the shooting world thinks of us.

I do heartily endorse the use of the word handloader to describe what we are all trying to do.
It is a lot more that just picking a random load out of a manual and hoping for usable results.

Mighty or meek, if you are a handloader you have more questions than answers.
Seeking the answers and sharing what you learn seems to be what this forum is about.

The combined effect of our questions, answers, theories, and experiments is known as 'synergy'. The result of our combined efforts is usually greater than the sum of our individual contributions.

Jack

[Beekeeper]

Jim,
Elite, No
Different, you bet.
Handloader, That has some severe conitations for me after some of the **** I see on other websites "Handgunner for one"
I think of myself as one of the few people who have taken the next step in being as independent of the ammo companies as possible with out making my own gun powder and primers.

I have a brother that has actually made his own brass? BRRRRRRRRRR scarry.
He doesn't and won't own a computer so he can't check this site for knowledge so I try to help when I call him.


Jim

[Beekeeper]

5 hole,
Them sure look like tracks to me.
You sure you ain't trying to put one over on the rest of us?


Jim

[theperfessor]

I think of a bullet caster and reloader as an "ammo craftsman" vs an "ammo assembler". No disrespect intended to shooters that use all-factory components, there's a lot of good shooters and fine people that fall into this category. In fact some shooting sports virtually require you to use factory ammo or assemble your components to duplicate factory/military specifications or conform to match rules. These folks need to assemble ammo that's the same every time.

But after reading a lot of the posts on this site the main impression I get is that most people who post here are folks who want to learn and share and experiment and try new things. We will take the time and make the effort to lap a mold, fit a bullet to a gun, try different alloys, powders and so forth to satisfy our curiosity. We don't want our ammo to be the same all the time. We want .45 Colt loads that will knock down a wall or barely recoil for a Cowboy shoot. We want to do better and we want things our way. This to me is the mark of a craftsman.

The elite are the best of the best in any area, its unfortunate the word has taken on the negative aspect of snobbishness.

[9.3X62AL]

The elite are the best of the best in any area, its unfortunate the word has taken on the negative aspect of snobbishness.

Quite correct, Perfessor. I suspect this was the point Jim was making initially, so he has no reason to apologize. At all.

Still a student here. Still learning, with a long way to go.

[cbrick]

I agree that elite in this day and age has taken on the ring of snobishness in some areas but not all. The Navy Seals and other such groups are "elite" and have earned the right to be called such. The meaning of "hero" as been stolen also. On the other hand I'm old enough to remember when gay meant happy.

I also agree with the definition of reloader and handloaders given here and for many years I have made the same distinction, the difference is very real.

Rick

[ole 5 hole group]

5 hole,
Them sure look like tracks to me.
You sure you ain't trying to put one over on the rest of us?Jim

Kinda looks like tracks but I thought someone would comment on the case of bourbon – kinda cold in April when the wind blows across the prairie – no dancing girls out there, so you have to make do with what you brought.

Those are snowmobile suits in late afternoon - the prairie dogs you see there were probably to cold to get down their holes and gave the ole timers enough time to get the gloves off. Always a great time in the field with family & friends.

[Gelandangan]

If those who handloads and cast their own are "elite",
what about the wildcatting mob that design and build their own ammo/caliber? super elite?

what could we classify those that whittle out of chunks of metal and make heirloom grade guns? (eg. www.garagegunsmithing.com ) demi gods?

:redneck: :castmine: [smilie=w:

[wallenba]

Occasionally I'm reminded that what I do as a hobby is not widely known by most people, even amongst some shooters. When asked what caliber my Contender was once, I replied that it was a 30 Herrett, which brought the response "never heard of it". You can guess where the conversation went from there, with even disbelief that it was possible. Another
commented on how weird my 38's looked (wadcutters), don't think he had ever even seen a non J-word boolit. I chalked them up as new or infrequent shooters. It has made me think too about our percentage in the populace, but since more than a few big companies make big bucks from us, we must number quite a few.

[Buckshot]

..........I have assumed that we are among the illuminati of shooters :drinks:

"................persons who are or who claim to be unusually enlightened"

I believe it fits, eh?

..............Buckshot

[bohokii]

i think i get what the poster is saying about casters being elite

its kind of like how certain motorcycle owners a large group owns motorcyles of that they use them regularly of them there are members of clubs of the members of clubs there are those who really live for the club and of those there are those that will die for the club


there are gun owners then there are people who shoot regularly then there are reloaders/handloaders* then there are bullet casters and then there are wildcaters

to me a reloader is a brass scrounge a handloader would never use scrounged brass because they dont know how many times it has been fired to put in their log for their anealing interval and they measure each bullet with cannilure calipers and weigh each projectile rejecting any that are a half a grain off their certain specification and count out 4157 individual granules of varget for their pet load

[cbrick]

Hhmmm . . . A new world order . . . I dunno Buckshot . . .

Illuminati (plural of Latin illuminatus, "enlightened") is a name that refers to several groups, both historical and modern, and both real and fictitious. Historically, it refers specifically to the Bavarian Illuminati, an Enlightenment-era secret society founded on May 1, 1776. In modern times it is also used to refer to a purported conspiratorial organization which acts as a shadowy "power behind the throne", allegedly controlling world affairs through present day governments and corporations, usually as a modern incarnation or continuation of the Bavarian Illuminati. In this context, Illuminati is often used in reference to a New World Order (NWO). Many conspiracy theorists believe the Illuminati are the masterminds behind events that will lead to the establishment of such a New World Order.

Rick

[Bullshop Junior]

Nope I agree that I am a one of a kind Super Hnadloader, and no one else will ever come close to what I am able to do. ;) :mrgreen:

[oldhickory]

I just see casting as carrying on a centuries old tradition of doing for yourself and not depending on others to do it for you. I'm just an old, tired Pennsylvania hill-billy who tills a patch of land every year and cans my own vegetables, butchers my own meat, worships God in the old way, and works on my own stuff. To not be a boolit caster would be against my religion!

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I understand the idea of this post...
But I sure do not want to start down that path of "the BIG head". Pride goes before destruction.. A haughty spirit before a fall. I can think of a couple of websights around where the "Old Timers" are real quick to remind anyone "they are the Elite".
I am still here because I do not sense that attitude among the fine members here still delving into the horizons of perfecting castboolit loads. I am happy to live in the arena of knowing I need all the help I can get.

[smoked turkey]

In my personal circle of friends I am seen as a pretty knowledgeable person when it comes to reloading/shooting. However when I step onto this site I become one who has only scratched the surface. I began to realize that the more I know, the more I don't know. What I see here is a group of people who are raising the bar for those of us who desire to be better than we currently are. No doubt I am a better caster, and a more knowledgeable handloader than I was before becoming a part of this board. As so many have already said, I have a lot to learn, but thanks to a lot of folk here I am better than I was. Elite, no; better, yes.

[oldhickory]

If anything, we're simply more independent and willing to cross frontiers, both new and old. Unwilling to follow the commercial "pack" just because they offer it for sale and tell us it's what we need.

They did it all those years with cast boolits...Why can't I?

[Bret4207]

elite gives the wrong tone to me. Advanced maybe would work, hardcore, serious, something like that. It's more than a hobby, it's a passion of sorts.

My experience is limited in many areas of the shooting sports, quite advanced in others. I would never consider myself an "expert" in any field, just an advanced caster/handloader with an interest in making readily obtainable lead alloys work for me.

[qajaq59]

I think loaders and casters are more curious then elite. They are usually the type that says, "I wonder how I can make this ammo more accurate?" And then proceed to spend some serious time trying to figure it out.

[fishhawk]

me elite? yea right! that will be the day. steve k

[Jim]

Well, some have forgiven me for that word and some have gone to Shields Up. I think those that have told me no apology necessary do understand that I was not reaching for a flag to fly, just observing that we're, collectively, different and, sometimes, a good bit farther out toward the horizon than the average "reloader".
Yeah, different, that's what it is. Different. I'm not like most shooters. Not better, not special, just different.
I stopped by the auto shop awhile ago to drop off some .452-230-1R TLs for my buddy and pick up my monthly draw of WWs. One of the guys asked me what I do with 'em. "I do a lot of shooting, so I make my own bullets". Boy, did that light a fuse of conversation. I was there a half hour answering questions and explaining the ins and outs of it. Lots of fellas up in these hills "roll their own", but seems nobody 'round here casts.
Sooooo, I'm the new kid in town that's different.

[wiljen]

I wasnt offended by the term and couldnt find a single word to replace it that sounded any better. I think in the spirit that you meant it, perhaps we are elite. My concern was that someone outside this brood would read it as arrogance. No need for apologies, and nothing wrong with what ya said. Just as always, if left open to mis-interpretation - someone will.

[qajaq59]

Lots of fellas up in these hills "roll their own", but seems nobody 'round here casts.
Sooooo, I'm the new kid in town that's different. With me it was just the opposite. We moved over here in July and where we came from I was the only caster and one of only a few loaders. First day at the club here everyone on the line was both a loader and a caster. Maybe it's something in the water? But it's great to have someone else to talk to about casting! :smile:

[ghh3rd]

One thing for sure, Jim, is that there has been a lot of response to this thread. Thanks for an interesting topic.

[Jim]

My pleasure. Every now and then, even a blind hog finds an acorn.

[BD]

I almost feel like I'd have to put on a clean shirt just to get into this conversation.
BD

[Houndog]

After thinkin on it for awhile I think a better word may be seeker.
We seek to make the best boolets we can
We seek to handload that boolet into the most accurate ammunition we can
We seek to shoot that ammunition as accurately as humanly possible
We seek to improve all the above through experimentation and research

Elite ain't half bad, but I think seeker might just fit ALL of us a little better!

Your thoughts may be vastly different!

[Lotec]

I'm the finest example of myself that has ever been!

[HangFireW8]

After years of handloading, I thought of cast boolit shooters not as "elite" so much but as "hard core". Sort of like, there are bikers, there are Harley Riders, then there is the guy who makes his living welding chopper frames, is a two-time loser, covered with tatoos, lives above his garage and rides an 80 inch flathead. He's hard core.

As a boolit caster and shooter, I get to be "hard core", without the pain of getting a tattoo. :)

-HF

[largom]

If anything, we're simply more independent and willing to cross frontiers, both new and old. Unwilling to follow the commercial "pack" just because they offer it for sale and tell us it's what we need.

They did it all those years with cast boolits...Why can't I?



INDEPENDENT, you bet! Thats why I plant a garden, heat my home with wood, and cast my own boolits. Not because I have to, but because I want to and can.

Larry

[Blacksmith]

My take on this would be a little different. When I was a young engineer and had a question about the sub component I was assigned to work on of the much larger project they would always send me to see some Old F**t and when I asked him the question instead of giving me the answer he would always ask me a question. It would go something like this:

I would say “What size bolts should I use to hold this blanking plate on?”
He would say “What is the maximum pressure going to be in the system?”
I would go and find out the answer and when I told him the Old F**t would ask another question such as “How thick will the blanking plate be?”
I would get that answer and the Old F**t would ask “How many bolts are you going to use?”
When I came back the Old F**t would ask “What size bolt circle?”
And so it would go until I finally figured out how to design this small part of the project.

As the years went by and I got older and more experienced one day I realized I had become the Old F**t and the young engineers were being sent to me and I was answering their questions with questions.

While reading this thread it came to me that instead of being called shooting or reloading or handloading Elite maybe Old F**t would be a better term. When asked by a newbee caster about wrinkled Boolits we ask about mold cleaning, mold temperature, melt temperature, alloy mix, etc. That is the way people learn about all the interrelated components of complicated systems.

If all the answers were as simple as ABC the instructions would be on one sheet of paper and we would not need forums such as this to answer the questions with more questions. This forum is heavily populated with older experienced people with vast array of knowledge on a wide range of subjects and like that old engineer they are willing to share and pass along that knowledge.

So don’t call me elite just say Old F**t; I don’t mind.

Blacksmith

[SciFiJim]

Wow, some thought provoking responses. I had imagined this forum at the far end of the bell curve of reloaders. Not "elite", just not as common as most. Even on this board there is a normal distribution of knowledge, with some at the far end of knowledge. I am still on the beginning steep climb of knowledge acquisition in shooting, firearms, and casting. A few days ago it occurred to me that the biggest reason I love reading and participating here is because I find more to learn all of the time. I even changed my signature line to reflect that.

[Eutectic]

I don't know if 'elite' is the right word, but it may suffice....

Personally, I see a 'reloader' and I see an 'ammunition improvement specialist' if we tried to group all of us into just two categories. The two categories include ALL the disciplines of which Cast Boolits is one...

The word 'love' may help separate the two. Many/most of use 'love' to shoot. Many 'love' to shoot well enough that they will 'work' with their reloading to accomplish this. Reloading is a labor to feed their love to them..... Reloading is usually a 'hurry up' thing with all the time savers attached!

The other group 'LOVES' to craft ammunition just as much as shooting it! (Some maybe more?) If a certain load takes a whole afternoon to assemble enough to go shoot, BUT IT IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST PERFORMER; this is accepted as the crafting of it has 'love' in it for the very best shooting possible. These individuals NEVER make a powder choice by metering ease. If the very best load has to be weighed so be it! To this group, time is not the most important thing.... performance is. Does this second group 'craft' the best ammunition then? At times probably so. Crafting' time never supersedes performance and sometimes the very best combination takes more time...

Eutectic

[Jim]

Wow! Into the fourth page! I had no eydee!

[SciFiJim]

Wow! Into the fourth page! I had no eydee!
Obviously an idea that many people on this forum have given some thought to.

[Down South]

I never considered myself "Elite". Different would categorize me better. Right now I can’t even think of more than one or two around here that I know that rolls their own much less casts.
I do get asked a lot of questions about casting. Folks are curious about casting it seems.
I know that there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum about casting that can’t be surpassed anywhere else.

[waksupi]

I believe eccentric is the word you are searching for.

[dromia]

Not sure about elite but definitely hardcore.

[qajaq59]

I think "elite" is just one of those buzz words that automatically draws a response.

And of all the words offered in it's place I think the "Seekers" seems to fit the best. Most guys that get all the way to casting are looking for something better then what they can buy off the shelves. Even if they have to make it themselves.

[jr545]

Waksupi nailed it.

[wallenba]

Should we refer to ourselves as ammunition "TUNERS"?

[223tenx]

Instead of "ELITE", how about "HOMIES IN THE HOOD" or "BRO'S and this where we put it down"