Testing hardness with pencils

[chasw]

I've been reading all the various posts about methods and devices for testing alloy hardness. One post by Molly recommended using pencils of varying hardness to compare against the surface hardness of bullets and ingots. This is widely used in labs to test hardness of metal coatings by scratching the surface in a particular way to see if the pencil digs into the surface or glides over it.

After some searching, I found that Office Depot, a large chain of stationary stores here in the US, carries just what I needed - the Staedtler Mars Lumograph set of pencils for artists. Cost is $10 for the set of 12 wooden pencils in a flat metal case, already sharpened, ranging from 6B to 4H.

Molly said 6B pencils are same hardness as pure lead and H equal to linotype. Can anyone provide an approximate BHN number for the other pencils in between? These are 6B, 5B, 4B, 3B, 2B, B, HB, F, and H. The set continues on up to 2H, 3H and 4H, but if H is lino, I won't be using alloys any harder than that. BTW, I tried out the pencils on the base of a fresh bullet cast from what I believe to be Lyman no 2. F scratched the surface, but HB just left a trail of graphite on the shiny surface, as predicted.

I really like this method. Its quick, cheap and repeatable. No spring loaded devices, no ball bearings, no measuring indents with a digital caliper. Just apply the pencil and see immediately if it scratches or writes. You assistance in converting the pencil numbers to BHN is appreciated. thx - CW

[felix]

Using the scraping idea is preferred in my opinion, as opposed to indenting, for the measurement of the leading potential. However, for the rotation grabbing ability, the indention measurement would be more important. ... felix

[Molly]

Molly said 6B pencils are same hardness as pure lead and H equal to linotype. Can anyone provide an approximate BHN number for the other pencils in between? These are 6B, 5B, 4B, 3B, 2B, B, HB, F, and H. The set continues on up to 2H, 3H and 4H, but if H is lino, I won't be using alloys any harder than that. BTW, I tried out the pencils on the base of a fresh bullet cast from what I believe to be Lyman no 2. F scratched the surface, but HB just left a trail of graphite on the shiny surface, as predicted.

I really like this method. Its quick, cheap and repeatable. No spring loaded devices, no ball bearings, no measuring indents with a digital caliper. Just apply the pencil and see immediately if it scratches or writes. You assistance in converting the pencil numbers to BHN is appreciated. thx - CW

Chas,

I can't give you an exact comparison beween pencil hardness and Brinnel hardness: Just never got around to it, as I didn't need to know any more than "Is it as hard as the last batch?" or "is it harder / softer than the last batch?"

I suspect you can come pretty close though, as follows: Each pencil hardness seems to average roughly one and 3/4 Brinnel units harder than the one below it. I don't know that this is an exact amount, but it seems to hold over several steps of pencil hardness. Technique is important. You can get some reallly bad values if you don't take care that the pencil lead is 'full wadcutter' in shape, with a sharp edge. If you use a pencil that has a cone shaped point, heaven only knows what you'll come up with. Hope this helps.

[rob45]

While the "scratch test" may seem to have appeal, keep in mind that it is a relative test. Much like the ole' trick of usin' 'yer thumbnail. Scratch that (pun definitely intended), it's exactly like using your thumbnail.

A relative test has value in the sense that it allows one to quickly determine if a material is "harder" or "softer" than another. Unfortunately, the deficiency of any such test is that it fails to provide accurate numeric data, and as such, fails to allow reliable exchange of data between individuals. In other words, a relative test provides value only to the individual employing the test.

In addition, there is no method known to "convert" results from such a relative test into BHN.
Quite simply, one is a relative test employed to gain generic information, while the other (Brinell test) is a standardized test designed to provide a numeric result.


An excerpt from an engineering forum I frequent:


HARDNESS TESTING
What is Hardness?
Hardness is the property of a material that enables it to resist plastic deformation, usually by penetration. However, the term hardness may also refer to resistance to bending, scratching, abrasion or cutting.

Measurement of Hardness:
Hardness is not an intrinsic material property dictated by precise definitions in terms of fundamental units of mass, length and time. A hardness property value is the result of a defined measurement procedure.

Hardness of materials has probably long been assessed by resistance to scratching or cutting. An example would be material B scratches material C, but not material A. Alternatively, material A scratches material B slightly and scratches material C heavily. Relative hardness of minerals can be assessed by reference to the Mohs Scale that ranks the ability of materials to resist scratching by another material. Similar methods of relative hardness assessment are still commonly used today. An example is the file test where a file tempered to a desired hardness is rubbed on the test material surface. If the file slides without biting or marking the surface, the test material would be considered harder than the file. If the file bites or marks the surface, the test material would be considered softer than the file.

The above relative hardness tests are limited in practical use and do not provide accurate numeric data or scales particularly for modern day metals and materials. The usual method to achieve a hardness value is to measure the depth or area of an indentation left by an indenter of a specific shape, with a specific force applied for a specific time. There are three principal standard test methods for expressing the relationship between hardness and the size of the impression, these being Brinell, Vickers, and Rockwell. For practical and calibration reasons, each of these methods is divided into a range of scales, defined by a combination of applied load and indenter geometry.

Hardness Conversion or Equivalents:
Hardness conversion between different methods and scales cannot be made mathematically exact for a wide range of materials. Different loads, different shape of indenters, homogeneity of specimen, cold working properties and elastic properties all complicate the problem. All tables and charts should be considered as giving approximate equivalents, particularly when converting to a method or scale which is not physically possible for the particular test material and thus cannot be verified. An example would be converting HV/10 or HR-15N value on a thin coating to the HRC equivalent.

In other words, please do not attempt to tell others your lead is "XX BHN" if you have not performed a Brinell test.

[chasw]

Thanks, Molly and Rob. This is useful information. As I begin to gather data from using my new pencil set on samples from my store of boolit alloys, I am beginning to map out a scale of sorts - call it the Staedtler Scale, after the makers of these fine artist's pencils. So long as one sticks to that widely available brand of pencils and uses the correct technique, results will be similar. Molly observed spacing of about 1-3/4 BHN between some of the grades, perhaps at the softer end of the scale. Here's what I've gathered so far:

6B = Pure lead, about 5 BHN
5B
4B
3B = 1in20 tin/lead alloy, age softened, about 10 BHN
2B
B
HB = Lyman no 2 alloy, about 15 BHN
H = Linotype, supposedly about 22 BHN, but that seems high
2H
3H
4H

I offer this cheap but effective method of testing relative hardness, not particularly to convert pencil numbers to Brinell numbers, but rather as an alternate scale for boolit casters, with reference points to known alloys. If I pick up some scrap lead, or buy alloy from a smelter, I can quickly find out where it lies, relative to those other alloys. For example, my small stock of LaserCast brand commercial lead projectiles tested HB. I never had any luck with them, I've been saving them for the furnace, now I know approximately where they fit in as feedstock.

The bullets I cast from Lyman no 2 do very well in my rifles, with no leading at all. But methinks that alloy is too hard to maintain a tight seal in my revolver loads. So I'll try some of the 1in20 alloy, maybe with some Lino mixed in to boost it up into the 2B range. - CW

[Shooter6br]

went to local A.C Moore today Pencil set (see pic) was listed at $19.99 not $9.99 as was Office Depot.I got the manager and showed him the print out from Office Depot. He had no explaination. I told him I would buy the set at the Office Depot price or shop elsewhere. He say "Ok" Point is "My Mama said" You better shop around"Oh by the way I tested some 20-1 alloy i bought from a vender. It was 20-1 although I cant get it to mushroom when i use drilled out hollow points

[Shooter6br]

tried on my certified Lyman #2 and 20-1 Both as predicted

[Molly]

While the "scratch test" may seem to have appeal, keep in mind that it is a relative test. Much like the ole' trick of usin' 'yer thumbnail. Scratch that (pun definitely intended), it's exactly like using your thumbnail.

A relative test has value in the sense that it allows one to quickly determine if a material is "harder" or "softer" than another. Unfortunately, the deficiency of any such test is that it fails to provide accurate numeric data, and as such, fails to allow reliable exchange of data between individuals. In other words, a relative test provides value only to the individual employing the test.

In addition, there is no method known to "convert" results from such a relative test into BHN.
Quite simply, one is a relative test employed to gain generic information, while the other (Brinell test) is a standardized test designed to provide a numeric result.

In other words, please do not attempt to tell others your lead is "XX BHN" if you have not performed a Brinell test.

May I comment? I really don't want to start a quarrel, but I feel you may be focusing too much on theoretical aspects and overlooking the "real world". You are correct in stating that the pencil hardness test will only provide relative hardness, not a numerical value. However, you are outright mistaken in stating that it "fails to allow reliable exchange of data between individuals." The pencil hardness test is not only a standardized test that is widely recognized and used commercially, it was tested and approved for reproducibility and consistency under the auspices of the American Standard Test Methods panel, whose 'round robin testing' found that when properly performed, the result obtained by one individual should not vary more than one pencil value from the results obtained by another individual in a different location and using a diferent set of pencils. Your local library can furnish you with full details.

While you are also correct in principle in recommending that results not be reported as Brinell values unless an actual Brinell test has been conducted, there are some practical difficulties with that policy; Formal hardness testing equipment and procedures are unfortunately beyond the financial and or technical skills and resources of many shooters. The pencil hardness test provides a simple and inexpensive alternative. And while it does not provide Brinell numbers, it is not unreasonable for shooters to wonder if their "HB" alloy hardness is anywhere near the Brinell hardness of an alloy reported in literature.

Even the best lead alloy hardness testing (indent measurement errors, quenching, age hardening / age softening, work softening and others) can result in considerable doubt of the reliability of even your vaunted numerical Brinell values. That ingot that tested 16 Brinell last week may test 14 or 18 Brinell today.

Given the admitted lack of extreme precision of both techniques (especially over time), a simple table of aproximate equivalencies between Brinell and pencil test results is not without some practical value amongst the laity, no matter what theoretical objections there may be. I personally have no problem with statements like "I get a consistent () pencil hardness, which is roughly equal to () Brinell."

In the final analysis, despite some theoretical concerns, either technique is a great deal better than scratching an ingot with your thumbnail or smashing two bullets together in a vise. Pencil hardness values are sufficiently precise that one can reproduce initial batch hardness and follow quenching / aging effects in your latest batch of alloy. And they are obtained with little difficulty or cost, and require little training. As a practical matter, Brinell hardness values don't seem to offer a great deal more.

Molly

[MJR007]

The older Ames hardness testers can be found cheap and are easy to use.

[Molly]

The older Ames hardness testers can be found cheap and are easy to use.

??? Ames??? Not familiar with them. How do they work?
Molly

[MJR007]

Just have to convert from Rockwell: MY unit was made in 1980 and the same unit is still made today. They can be found used cheap.

Ames Hardness Tester for Rockwell Testing
The Ames Hardness Tester for Rockwell testing has been giving repeatable accurate measurements in large and small plants around the world for over 50 years. The light weight and portability of the Ames hardness tester saves time and money by providing Rockwell test results quickly, anywhere.

Ames Portable Hardness Testers are built following ASTM E-110 Guidelines for making hardness testing measurements directly in the Rockwell scale, with no chart, conversion or calculation required. Penetrations are of correct width and depth.

Unlike many units described as a portable or hand held hardness tester, the Ames Hardness Tester can take fully-accurate readings on the inside surfaces of objects simply by switching the positions of the anvil and penetrator.

Every genuine Ames Hardness Tester is individually calibrated to the Rockwell scales before leaving our plant. The signed certificate with each unit reflects a painstaking process involving from 70 to 100 separate readings.

Ames: over fifty years of excellence
Ames Precision joined forces with Electro Arc Manufacturing Company in 1975. Ames portable hardness testers are still built one at a time with the same attention to detail and high quality standards our customers have come to respect. Thousands of Ames testers are in use worldwide.

[HORNET]

Let's see....Set of pencils new cost ~$10 at Office Depot
Ames Hardness Tester new cost ~ $1650
That used price for the Ames would have to go down an awful lot just to get below the price of a Saeco tester, a Cabine Tree tester, a Lee tester, and a set of pencils combined.....
I'm sure the Ames is a good piece of equipment but some of us are froooogal......

[MJR007]

The Ames units are very good, even the old ones like mine. I guess I like old tools. The design has not changed in over 30 years. It works very well and used ones can be found. It may be a little over kill for boolits. I guess there are many different ways to get the boolit on target.

[Dale53]

Molly;
An excellent post in every way. I am a bit jealous of your way with words.

Thanks for sharing with us.

As a matter of interest, I have long had an LBT hardness tester and have been very happy with it. However, I have no illusions that it is PRECISELY accurate. However, it IS comparatively accurate and serves the purpose quite well. Sometimes we get carried away with the promise of PRECISION that is way beyond what benefit we can realize.

I suspect that most of us could get by quite nicely with pencil hardness testing. If I had known that before I bought my LBT, you can bet your house that is what I would be using now.:drinks:

Dale53

[badgeredd]

Thank you gentlemen. This thread is an excellent example of the knowledge that abounds on this forum.

Chasw, your efforts to come up with somewhat a correlation between the pencil leads and the brinnell scale is a very good idea that will be a lot of help to those who haven't yet purchased a tester or who simply want an idea of how hard their lead is. Good on you.

Edd

[acl864]

Picked up a set of 10 artist pencils for $8.50 in Walmart. It contained an 8B, 6B , 4B, 3B, 2B, B, HB, F, 1H, 2H, 3H and 4H.
Tested a few things I had laying around just for grins.
Egg sinkers I cast from lead sheet that I think is nearly pure lead- 8B
Bullet I cast from Clip on WW- 3B
Commercial bullet from Tennessee Valley Bullets (supposed to be around 12 bhn)- B
Ingot of Clip on WW with 2% tin added- B
Ingot of Commercial Hardball Alloy- F
Commercial Rifle Bullet from Hunter's Supply- F
Commercial Bullet from Meister- F
Bullet I cast from clip on WW's and water dropped- 2H

I'm not sure I can nail down an exact bhn but I can certainly tell what hardness range my alloys and bullets are in. Not bad for less than $10.

[jlchucker]

believe it or not, H-grade pencils are used by some companies to test the hardness of their painted products. I was once a paint room foreman in a Stanley Tool factory, and 2H pencils were what inspectors used to do sample checks on painted products. These days such products are made overseas, and mostly of molded plastic-no longer painted.

[Molly]

believe it or not, H-grade pencils are used by some companies to test the hardness of their painted products. I was once a paint room foreman in a Stanley Tool factory, and 2H pencils were what inspectors used to do sample checks on painted products. These days such products are made overseas, and mostly of molded plastic-no longer painted.

I was a paint chemist (that is where I learned about hardness / art pencils. As a general rule, if you can scratch it with your fingernail, it's 'H' or softer. If you can't scratch it with your fingernail, it's '2H' or harder.

Molly

[Molly]

Picked up a set of 10 artist pencils for $8.50 in Walmart. It contained an 8B, 6B , 4B, 3B, 2B, B, HB, F, 1H, 2H, 3H and 4H.
Tested a few things I had laying around just for grins.
Egg sinkers I cast from lead sheet that I think is nearly pure lead- 8B
Bullet I cast from Clip on WW- 3B
Commercial bullet from Tennessee Valley Bullets (supposed to be around 12 bhn)- B
Ingot of Clip on WW with 2% tin added- B
Ingot of Commercial Hardball Alloy- F
Commercial Rifle Bullet from Hunter's Supply- F
Commercial Bullet from Meister- F
Bullet I cast from clip on WW's and water dropped- 2H

I'm not sure I can nail down an exact bhn but I can certainly tell what hardness range my alloys and bullets are in. Not bad for less than $10.

Wow! I wonder what brand they are. Personally, I've never seen 8B lead, etc. But so long as you are consistent in how you use them, they will still let you reproduce your alloy hardnesses. But you might want to read the ASTM description (ask your library) of how to use them to test hardness properly.

As an afterthought: Could you be rating your pencil tests by the softest pencil that will polish or scratch the ingot? If so, it would explain your very soft readings. The correct way of using the pencils is to find the softest pencil that will CUT INTO the surface. You should be able to see a tiny curl or chip of lead that is peeled out of the surface.

The reason that tiny scratches or polishing of the surface are not reliable is that the composition of the pencil cores is not perfectly uinform: The process of mixing the clays, graphites, etc that go into each core hardness will leave tiny particles, much like mixing concrete will leave granules of sand. But by requiring that the core shave lead, you are testing the actual core hardness or strength, not some scrap of impurity in the clay that was used.

Molly

[jlchucker]

I was a paint chemist (that is where I learned about hardness / art pencils. As a general rule, if you can scratch it with your fingernail, it's 'H' or softer. If you can't scratch it with your fingernail, it's '2H' or harder.

Molly

Yup. Unless you've got a solid carbide fingernail like the inspector that used to come around to my department did on some days. I left him stumbling away puzzled one day when he came by and started scratching. I whipped out a number 2 pencil and he was totally befuddled when it didn't scratch paint. There's a difference between 2 and 2H and he didn't pick up on it. :roll:

[acl864]

It's called a "Kimberly Graphite Drawing Set #25" and they are manufactured by the General Pencil Company in Jersey City, NJ. I think it's the only thing I've bought at Walmart lately that was actually made in the US. They may be softer than the other brand, more likely the difference lies in my technique. But for the most part the test served my purpose. I was able to sort from hardest to softest and things I expected to be identical were identical. I did a search and found you're original post with a brief outline of how to do the test. I'll work on my technique and retest. I do like this test method. I started casting my own to save money. I just saved a bunch more $$$. I've already seen enough to know that I can get adequate data to manage my casting alloys for less than $10. Thanks!


Wow! I wonder what brand they are. Personally, I've never seen 8B lead, etc. But so long as you are consistent in how you use them, they will still let you reproduce your alloy hardnesses. But you might want to read the ASTM description (ask your library) of how to use them to test hardness properly.

As an afterthought: Could you be rating your pencil tests by the softest pencil that will polish or scratch the ingot? If so, it would explain your very soft readings. The correct way of using the pencils is to find the softest pencil that will CUT INTO the surface. You should be able to see a tiny curl or chip of lead that is peeled out of the surface.

The reason that tiny scratches or polishing of the surface are not reliable is that the composition of the pencil cores is not perfectly uinform: The process of mixing the clays, graphites, etc that go into each core hardness will leave tiny particles, much like mixing concrete will leave granules of sand. But by requiring that the core shave lead, you are testing the actual core hardness or strength, not some scrap of impurity in the clay that was used.

Molly

[Molly]

It's called a "Kimberly Graphite Drawing Set #25" and they are manufactured by the General Pencil Company in Jersey City, NJ. I think it's the only thing I've bought at Walmart lately that was actually made in the US. They may be softer than the other brand, more likely the difference lies in my technique. But for the most part the test served my purpose. I was able to sort from hardest to softest and things I expected to be identical were identical. I did a search and found you're original post with a brief outline of how to do the test. I'll work on my technique and retest. I do like this test method. I started casting my own to save money. I just saved a bunch more $$$. I've already seen enough to know that I can get adequate data to manage my casting alloys for less than $10. Thanks!

Interesting. I'm not familiar with them, but I'm glad you're happy with the test. It's sure been a godsend to me.

[chasw]

Molly said: "As an afterthought: Could you be rating your pencil tests by the softest pencil that will polish or scratch the ingot? If so, it would explain your very soft readings. The correct way of using the pencils is to find the softest pencil that will CUT INTO the surface. You should be able to see a tiny curl or chip of lead that is peeled out of the surface."

Right on, Molly. I suggest we adopt the above as a best practice for testing lead alloy hardness with standard pencils. Start by flattening a small section of the alloy surface with a file. The base of a large caliber bullet is sufficient. Prepare the pencil by sanding a small flat or "meplat" on the tip of the pencil with 400 grit sandpaper. Then hold the pencil at 45 degrees, as if writing, and press firmly down and forward with the sharp edge. If the pencil skids over the alloy surface, even if it leaves a slight scratch, its still not harder than the lead alloy.

Work your way up to progressively harder pencils, until you get to one where the sharp edge of the pencil "meplat" really digs into the surface, pushing up a curl or mound of alloy in front of it. At that point you stop and consider the hardest pencil that will not dig into the alloy in this manner, to be the "Staedtler" rating of the alloy in question.

For example, my little store of 1in20 (tin-lead) alloy skids on a 3B but digs in on a 2B, therefore its Staedtler hardness is 3B. Some Hornady swaged lead bullets I have will skid on 4B but dig in on 3B, therefore the Staedtler hardness rating is 4B. I also suggest we stick to the Staedtler Mars Lumograph pencil sets, since the maker claims they conform to ASTM standard D-4236 for consistency. They are cheap and readily available at Office Depot and other stores.

With this method you can quickly determine the Staedtler hardness of a given alloy and begin to gauge which alloys are best for your loads and firearms. While its possible to roughly equate Staedtler hardness ratings to Brinell hardness numbers, that question is moot, so long as you stick to the pencil method for testing all your alloys. - CW

[missionary5155]

Good afternoon
A drafting supplier should also be a source of quality pencils. I think I would be inclined to find a highschool drafting teacher.
But scratching lead would not need be of such great accuracy.
This sure has been fun to read.

[Molly]

Right on, Molly. I suggest we adopt the above as a best practice for testing lead alloy hardness with standard pencils. Start by flattening a small section of the alloy surface with a file. The base of a large caliber bullet is sufficient. Prepare the pencil by sanding a small flat or "meplat" on the tip of the pencil with 400 grit sandpaper. Then hold the pencil at 45 degrees, as if writing, and press firmly down and forward with the sharp edge. If the pencil skids over the alloy surface, even if it leaves a slight scratch, its still not harder than the lead alloy.

Work your way up to progressively harder pencils, until you get to one where the sharp edge of the pencil "meplat" really digs into the surface, pushing up a curl or mound of alloy in front of it. At that point you stop and consider the hardest pencil that will not dig into the alloy in this manner, to be the "Staedtler" rating of the alloy in question.

For example, my little store of 1in20 (tin-lead) alloy skids on a 3B but digs in on a 2B, therefore its Staedtler hardness is 3B. Some Hornady swaged lead bullets I have will skid on 4B but dig in on 3B, therefore the Staedtler hardness rating is 4B. I also suggest we stick to the Staedtler Mars Lumograph pencil sets, since the maker claims they conform to ASTM standard D-4236 for consistency. They are cheap and readily available at Office Depot and other stores.

With this method you can quickly determine the Staedtler hardness of a given alloy and begin to gauge which alloys are best for your loads and firearms. While its possible to roughly equate Staedtler hardness ratings to Brinell hardness numbers, that question is moot, so long as you stick to the pencil method for testing all your alloys. - CW

Right on yourself! You've obviously gone to the trouble to dig out and read the ASTM document for pencil hardness. Nice job of summarizing it. I'm not familiar with Staedtler pencils myself. We mostly used Eagle brand. Eagle sels two versions: First a conventional wooden pencil as you'd expect, as well as a mechanical pencil which uses the different hardness cores. I like this because it always gives a sharp edge from the sandpaper.

[acl864]

Molly said: "As an afterthought: Could you be rating your pencil tests by the softest pencil that will polish or scratch the ingot? If so, it would explain your very soft readings. The correct way of using the pencils is to find the softest pencil that will CUT INTO the surface. You should be able to see a tiny curl or chip of lead that is peeled out of the surface."

Right on, Molly. I suggest we adopt the above as a best practice for testing lead alloy hardness with standard pencils. Start by flattening a small section of the alloy surface with a file. The base of a large caliber bullet is sufficient. Prepare the pencil by sanding a small flat or "meplat" on the tip of the pencil with 400 grit sandpaper. Then hold the pencil at 45 degrees, as if writing, and press firmly down and forward with the sharp edge. If the pencil skids over the alloy surface, even if it leaves a slight scratch, its still not harder than the lead alloy.

Work your way up to progressively harder pencils, until you get to one where the sharp edge of the pencil "meplat" really digs into the surface, pushing up a curl or mound of alloy in front of it. At that point you stop and consider the hardest pencil that will not dig into the alloy in this manner, to be the "Staedtler" rating of the alloy in question.

For example, my little store of 1in20 (tin-lead) alloy skids on a 3B but digs in on a 2B, therefore its Staedtler hardness is 3B. Some Hornady swaged lead bullets I have will skid on 4B but dig in on 3B, therefore the Staedtler hardness rating is 4B. I also suggest we stick to the Staedtler Mars Lumograph pencil sets, since the maker claims they conform to ASTM standard D-4236 for consistency. They are cheap and readily available at Office Depot and other stores.

With this method you can quickly determine the Staedtler hardness of a given alloy and begin to gauge which alloys are best for your loads and firearms. While its possible to roughly equate Staedtler hardness ratings to Brinell hardness numbers, that question is moot, so long as you stick to the pencil method for testing all your alloys. - CW

This sounds good to me. I wasn't really going into this in order to be able to compare and share data, but if there are others who are going to be using this technique to test for relative hardness, it only makes sense that we all try to use the same pencils and methods. At some point I'll test some alloys with both the Staedtler and General brand pencils just for the sake of comparison.

[evan price]

OfficeMAX has a Faber-Castell pencil set that does 6b, 4b, 2b, b, hb, 2h and comes in a case with a sharpener and eraser for $6.99 plus tax.

FYI, a standard #2 pencil is "HB" so if you have a #2 in your pocket- the little stubby ones from golf or library are free and useful!- you can do a quick and dirty classification of any unknown lumps of lead you find at a scrap yard.

That's really all the hardness levels we'll want to bother with in casting boolits I think.

My air-cooled wheel weight ingots from the past summer all test out at "B".

My air-cooled range scrap ingots from the past summer tested out at "2B"

A big 5-kilo plate counterweight I poured and later scrapped checked out at "3B"- I'd been beating on it with a maul and it just creased and deformed and wouldn't come apart- that's why.

My water-dropped range scrap boolits cast a few weeks ago test right at "B".

Stick-on lead WWs measured softer than "6B" because "6B" could scratch them.

An ingot of Babbitt was unscratchable as to be expected.

My lino spacers and flats came up as "HB" or "B".

My lino came up as a bit harder than "HB", the "HB" could almost scratch it but the "2H" could not- I don't have an "H" but I would bet that's "H" for linotype.

A Hornady swaged lead bullet came up "6B".

A commercial-cast 300-gr 44 bullet tested at 2H.

Most of my monotype came up at "2H" from the larger blocks & letters I tested.

I have a few foundry type items that are harder than "2H".

[leadbutt]

Sticky anyone? Looks worthy.


L.Bottoms

[fecmech]

At the beginning of this thread I went out and bought a set of Faber Castell pencils and sharpening to a flat point as suggested and pushing at roughly a 45 deg angle here are my results:

Pure lead Wire --5B cuts, 6B does not
50/50-WW/lino--2H cuts, H does not
New lino spacers--Same as 50/50
ACWW--HB cuts, B does not

I was a little disappointed that I could not differentiate between lino and a 50/50 mix. I also found it hard to differentiate between several batches of scrap lead that varied 2-4 bhn. Currently if I want the hardness of a batch I use the ball bearing trick between pure lead and the unknown sample and do the math. In the end I'm mainly a handgun and pistol cartridge rifle caster so my hardness requirements are pretty flexible.

[Bob Krack]

Most of you are right, but it doesn't matter if your dog can catch his tail of not.

If I can identify the approximate hardness of a sample I can make an intelligent - or at least educated opinion to use it, modify it, inventory it for trade, or pass.

I would not give a rodents rear end to know the absolute BHN of an alloy if it did not tell me what to expect with more certainty than what my firearm liked.


If I have a piece of alloy that tests 3M or 9G or whatever, and it performs well, and I find some more that tests the same or can figure how to modify it to make it read the same I will try to procure it.


Seems we are talking about MPH vs KPH here. Some of us are much more versed in one than the other.

No flame or disrespect intended. Thank each and everyone of yall for your input.

Bob

[Molly]

Sticky anyone? Looks worthy.
L.Bottoms

I'll second the motion.

[garandsrus]

It's a sticky :)

John

[Shooter6br]

I use the pencils to test lead alloy. I test Lyman # 1 , 16-1. 20-1, 25-1 and pure lead. This technique is an establish method of testing used in industry for surface hardness. Cheap and gives a "ball park" alloy hardness:castmine:

[Molly]

I use the pencils to test lead alloy. I test Lyman # 1 , 16-1. 20-1, 25-1 and pure lead. This technique is an establish method of testing used in industry for surface hardness. Cheap and gives a "ball park" alloy hardness:castmine:

What pencil leads correspond with those alloys?

[fecmech]

Molly--I just tested some 20/1 and 40/1 hollow points that I made from commercial pig lead (5 lb. round plumbers ingots for pipe joints) and bar tin.

20/1-- HB cuts, B does not

40/1--4B cuts, 5B does not

As said in previous post I have some new pure lead wire (for swaging) and that 5B cuts, 6B does not.

These bullets weren't poured with testing in mind so I won't swear they are exactly 20 or 40 to 1, could be 18 or 22 but close as I could make them at the time. Hope this helps. Nick

[Molly]

OK, here's a tabulation of what you guys have reported. Considering that it was accumulated by different untrained people, using different makes of pencils and on alloys of unknown age hardening / softening, it'not too bad. At least, you can get a rough idea where your next batch of scrap lead from the metal salvage yard fits in.

8B Sheet lead
7B
6B Lead wire 5 BHN
5B 40/1 lead / tin
4B
3B 1/20 tin/lead 10 BHN
3B Clip-on WW
2B Range scrap
B 20/1 Lead / tin
B Quenched range scrap
B Air cooled WW
B WW+2% tin
HB Lyman #2 15 Bhn
F Lyman #2
F Commercial cast
H 50/50 Lino /WW
H Linotype 20 Bhn
2H Quenched WW
2H Monotype
3H
4H

[msand951]

Great read guys , awesome research thanks alot.

[AZ-JIM]

good stuff, very interesting

[cajun shooter]

I think that if a person does the test the correct way then readings would be reliable. I do have a problem as each person will hold and bear down with different force. The angle that it crossed the lead at would also cause different results. Molly since you are one whom is using the method over a period of time,am I correct or does it matter. It just seems that you could have many different readings until you were able to duplicate what you did the last time. I use a cabin Tree tester and I find it to be very accurate and easy to use. It is many times more than your set of pencils. My wife has been drafting for over 35 years and we design homes or draw the blue prints as they said in the past. All plans are now done on Bond paper and Blueprints have went the way of the Edsel. In my drafting I prefer and use different leads than my wife. She holds and draws at a complete different angle on the board. Yes I said board, we still do it the old way and don't use CAD. The Cabin Tree is very repeatable with it's readings. You and I will have the same readings every time as it only works one way. To answer shooter6br about his 20-1 hollow point. you did not provide any information that would help someone help you. 20-1 alloy is what I use 100% of the time. It is only a 10BHN. At the correct speed and with a ample size hollow point it should expand.

[RayinNH]

Just picked up a set of Staedler Mars Lumograph pencils at Staples for $11.99

[passgas55]

I went to Walmart today. Pick up a 12 pack sketching pencils for $4.85 plus tax. 4h, 2h, h, f, hb, b, 2b, 3b, 4b, 5b, 6b, 8b. To my surprize they were not from China.....but from Vietnam. I will try them out and see what the results are.

[passgas55]

I tested some muffins that I poured Sunday. This looked to be mostly plumbers lead. The pencil showed slight scratch with 4b and no scatch with 5b. Pretty soft stuff.

[Dean D.]

I want to thank you all for the information you have assembled here!

For years my Uncle and I (both Journeyman Linemen) have been able to procure lead in small quantities from scrap at work. This scrap consists of hardware used on power poles, specifically the pins on which insulators are installed on. These pins are galvanized steel with a threaded lead tip which the porcelain or glass insulator screws onto. I smelt the lead off the pins then toss the remaining steel into the scrap bin. Since there is only a small amount on each pin it takes quite a few to add up. Heh, needs must eh?

My only problem was I had NO clue what the composition of this lead is and still don't. But I NOW know it scratches with a 3B Staedtler pencil so must be around 9 BHN or close. My Uncle used this lead for years in his .45 Colt with great success. Now I can see why. I am working up some rifle loads but did not know exactly how hard this lead was. This test helps in that regard too! At least now I have a ballpark idea on how hard it is.

BTW, $10.99 at the local Office Depot today. :grin:

[colt_saa]

Great info guys. I am glad that I stumbled on to this sight.

I am just getting back into casting after a couple of years of having no space for it.

[MikeS]

I just tested an ingot I poured into a stainless steel condiment cup. (I wanted to see how much it would weigh) When I saw what a nice smooth surface the cup left on the ingot I thought it would be the perfect surface to test, so I grabbed my pencil set (a Staedler Mars Lumograph 12 pencil set), and the HB cut into it, but the B wouldn't, so according to the chart earlier in this thread I have an alloy that's about the same as clip on wheel weights. The alloy was 4lbs on stick on WW and 3lb of linotype mixed with about 1-2 lbs of clip on weights.

[castormd]

Gentlemen, Thank you again for all this valuable information. I did the wally world $4.97 set, today. Going into the man cave to play now.

castormd

[midnight]

Been following this thread off and on for a while now. I may have missed it but I don't recall any discussion of the preparation of the pencil prior to testing. I keep a square of fine sandpaper mounted on a board with the pencils. Holding the pencil vertically, rub the tip if the pencil on the horizontal sandpaper to give yourself a flat tip at a right angle to the pencil. then scrape the lead to te tested at a 45 degree angle. This should give consistent results. At least that's the way I've been doing it for about 20yrs now.

Bob

[iwottopq]

Hello dear friends.
I have read the thread and it is very interesting but...how many force you apply to the pencil?
Sorry if this is a stupid question but I dont understand this point.
Thanks in advance.
Ciao
Nino

[midnight]

I really don't know the amount of pressure applied but it is not very much, probably less than a half a pound. Thats why I sand the tips flat and scrape at a 45° angle. Any lead softer than the pencil wil scratch easily.

Bob

[Molly]

Hello dear friends.
I have read the thread and it is very interesting but...how many force you apply to the pencil? Sorry if this is a stupid question but I dont understand this point.
Thanks in advance.
Ciao
Nino

Hello Nino,

That's not a stupid question at all. But the test doesn't rely on an exact amount of force. You hold the pencil at about a 45 degree angle to the lead, and push along the length of the pencil. One of two things should happen: The pencil lead should cut into the alloy, or it should skid and slip over the surface. If it cuts, the pencil is harder than the alloy. If it slips, the pencil is softer than the alloy.

Note: If the pencil lead breaks, you're not pushing straight down the length of the pencil.

Hope this answers your question. Feel free to ask about anything else that isn't clear.

Here is a Babblefish version in Italian that might help too:

Ciao Nino, non è una domanda stupida a tutti. Ma il test non si basa su una quantità esatta di forza. Avete in mano la matita in un angolo di circa 45 gradi al piombo, e spingere per tutta la lunghezza della matita. Una delle due cose dovrebbe accadere: la matita di piombo dovrebbe tagliare in lega, o dovrebbe slittare e scivolare sulla superficie. Se tagli, la matita è più duro della lega. Se si scivola, la matita è più morbida rispetto alla lega. Nota: In caso di rottura cavo di matita, non stai spingendo dritto dproprio la lunghezza della matita. Spero che questo risponde alla tua domanda. Non esitare a chiedere su qualsiasi altra cosa che non è chiaro.

[iwottopq]

Hello to all.
Thanks for the reply to my question. I am reloading from about 20 years but I learm always new tecniques thanks to your help.
For Midnight and Molly: Your reply is very clear and thanks also for the translade. I am tring to build a hardness tester but the work is long becouse my time is so short...
Ciao
Nino

[kooldecker]

First off, thank you all for your info on this thread , incredible amount of info from some really cool ppl. Second, this may sound stupid, but i am trying to get a visual, i am imagining sharpening the pencil as normal, then taking some really fine sandpaper , and squaring up the tip , kinding of making it look like a microscopic nail set. then holding at a 45 trying to gouge. start with the lightest pencil and work up. And i am assuming a very very smooth surface is better. kind of like the condiment cup mentioned earlier. Am i in the right ballpark?

[Molly]

First off, thank you all for your info on this thread , incredible amount of info from some really cool ppl. Second, this may sound stupid, but i am trying to get a visual, i am imagining sharpening the pencil as normal, then taking some really fine sandpaper , and squaring up the tip , kinding of making it look like a microscopic nail set. then holding at a 45 trying to gouge. start with the lightest pencil and work up. And i am assuming a very very smooth surface is better. kind of like the condiment cup mentioned earlier. Am i in the right ballpark?

Hi Kooldecker,

No, you're just a bit off of the right way to do it. You can't sand the point off of a cone and get a square, 90 degree angle. What you need is shaped like a full wadcutter bullet: Parallel sides that end in a sharp, flat face, with no transition area. Or think of something cut off with a tubing cutter, if that's easier for you to envision.

The reason for this is that it's the sharp edge that cuts into the alloy. And it's necessary for everyone to use the same angle to form that sharp edge, if you want to have comparable results. The proper way to do this is to peel the wood away from the graphite core of the pencil, which is a thin rod. Then sand the tip of that rod to a 90 degree angle by rubbing it across a sheet of 500 or 600 grit sandpaper while holding it straight up and down.

The hold the pencil at a 45 degree angle with the surface you are testing, and push down along the length of the pencil, as if you are trying to shove a knife point into the surface. If you try to push the pencil across the surface as if you are writting on in, you will get a much 'softer' result, because the edge won't be cutting into the surface, it will just be rubbing across the surface.

Hope this helps.

[kooldecker]

It cetainly does molly thanks alot. i actually cant wait to try this and start "grading " some of my lead.
Jason

[fredj338]

went to local A.C Moore today Pencil set (see pic) was listed at $19.99 not $9.99 as was Office Depot.I got the manager and showed him the print out from Office Depot. He had no explaination. I told him I would buy the set at the Office Depot price or shop elsewhere. He say "Ok" Point is "My Mama said" You better shop around"Oh by the way I tested some 20-1 alloy i bought from a vender. It was 20-1 although I cant get it to mushroom when i use drilled out hollow points
:hijack:
With 20-1 alloy, the vel & HP design will matter quite a bit. I can get 20-1 alloy to run fine in unaltered Dev molds @ 1000fps, very nicely expanded bullets. Smaller HP will likely need mroe vel.

[Shooter6br]

i have been using graded pencils for about 1 yr. When calibrated to the alloy ,They give a good reading of the alloy. I got lead pipe I thought it would be pure lead. Turns out to be 20-1 alloy( may have solder joint material mixed in).I find a 3B is 20-1.... 4b 25-1.... and.... 6B pure lead....... Lyman # 2 is a 4B .... 16-1 is 2B...Linotype H... (You results may vary) Tells hardness not actual compostion

[41mag]

As others have mentioned this is a great post and many thanks to those who have brought it to light.

I am new to casting and for the most part am concerned with only a few boolits for a couple of handguns, mainly one in particular. While I have spent some of my slush funds on needed items like the thermometer set, and a few tools to help out, this will indeed be something I will pursue ASAP.

I have fire tested one batch of boolits in probably the most demanding handgun and they worked with only very minimum leading on the first cylinder of several. I have a couple of boolits from this pour sitting around that haven't been sized or fitted with the GC's. I was wandering is there a time frame which is best to test the alloy, that would be better for a more accurate result, like a day, week, or so after pouring, or does it really matter so long as you test it within the same time frame every time ?

I have but two really different types of allow, WW and plain soft lead. The initial pour of boolits was with a batch of WW that I had smelted down probably a year or so ago, which I simply remelted, fluxed and poured. I air cooled half and water quenched the other half, both of which shot great so far in my limited testing of them with what I would call top end load for them. So I am simply looking to duplicate this alloy with the next batch I get ready to use. I figure I should pour up both AC and WQ boolits again from that alloy, and then use the pencil test to verify they are in the same ball park with a newer batch, before pouring up a full pot and getting different results.

Thanks again for all of the great folks who have put this together. This truly is a great place of sharing ideas and innovations.

[Maui Doug]

Wow Guyz -
I'm impressed (pun intended) with the level of inquiry and camaraderie on this thread. The trick with the #2 (standard "school" pencil) and the 2H sounds like something I might'a done when I was a Surveyor/Engineering Tech with the Feds (I often had an overly ambitious supervisor "on my case"!)
I still have a lot of the harder technical leads and lead holders from my pre-CAD days. My softest is 2B if I remember - up to 6H. I used 2H in my surveyor's field-books, unless it was real humid - I then went to H as the 2H tore the paper if soggy. Probably a fair correlation between the pencil leads and BHN, just needs a lot of testing.
By the way, do to advanced osteoarthritis in my knees (Rocky Mountains did 'em in!), I take huge doses of Calcium Citrate, Cal-Mag . etc. As a result, my toenails are probably good indicators up to about 20 - 22 BHN - just kiddin', but maybe?
I really enjoyed all of your posts. I just received my LBT a week or so back and have yet to get set up to cast, etc. I cast a bunch back in the early 70's - bought an all Saeco outfit from a police friend of mine. The bullets I cast got me started in centerfire pistol. I miss that set now - I'm going to start, with the Lee sizers.
I don't know if this constitutes a new thread (or the protocol yet - I'm a newbie w/ forums), but any suggestions re: using other than Lees Liquid Alox w/ cast bullets AND Lee sizers, ie., harder lubes IN the grooves?

[Dale53]

Maui Doug;
You might want to look at my article on pan lubing:

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/Dale_Lube.pdf

One thing I want to add to the article. When you use some of the modern lubes, like Lars' White Label Carnauba Red, you might want to get a silicone baking pan (I bought mine at a discount from "Linens and Such" or "Bed, Bath, and Beyond") as these lubes are tenacious and don't want to release from a normal cake pan. However, the silicone pans make this a breeze. You DO want to support the silicone pan with a piece of thin plywood or masonite as the pans are so flexible that they might want to dump a load of bullets without that support when you pick up the pan.

Dale53

[blackbike]

HOWDY YA`LL; Thanks for the good imfo. Here`s what I have found, if I air cool WW, I can cut it with my #2 pencil.Good for nonmag handguns, and probability a little faster.If I water drop WW, #2 pencil won`t cut it. Good for mag. handguns. About the same as thumbnail trick. What do you guys think? Am I in the ball park here?

[Molly]

Here`s what I have found, if I air cool WW, I can cut it with my #2 pencil.Good for nonmag handguns, and probability a little faster.If I water drop WW, #2 pencil won`t cut it. Good for mag. handguns. About the same as thumbnail trick. What do you guys think? Am I in the ball park here?

FWIW, I think that a #2 pencil is comparable to an HB pencil. The trouble with using only a single pencil is that it won't tell you how hard the alloy is. It will only tell you if it's less or more than a single point. If a #2 cuts it, is the hardness B, or 2B or 6B? If you don't know what the actual hardness is, you can't reproduce it.

[blackbike]

yes sir i understand. right now i dont have 2 penciles, so I used 2 lead hardness. Just trying understand the whole hardness selection thing. Am I in the ball park?

[Molly]

yes sir i understand. right now i dont have 2 penciles, so I used 2 lead hardness. Just trying understand the whole hardness selection thing. Am I in the ball park?

Well, blackbike, that's hard to say. You havent given much detail about how you are testing even with just one pencil. BTW, a complete set of art pencils is only something like ten bucks. Get a set from WalMart and learn how to use them. There was a pretty detailed description of the logic behind the pencil hardness test earlier in the thread, and the actual method of testing was described in considerable detail too. Have you read these?

[blackbike]

Yes sir .Iread all of it. So you think I can`t reproudce acww or wdww? Ibeg to differ.

[Molly]

Yes sir .Iread all of it. So you think I can`t reproudce acww or wdww? Ibeg to differ.

Well Blackbike,

If you read everything, then you should know whether or not you are doing it right. And you may have taken offense where none was intended: I have no idea what "acww or wdww" stands for, and I certainly didn't say you couldn't reproduce them, whatever they are.

[blackbike]

No sir, no offense taken.acww=air cooled wheel weights. wdww= water droped wheel weights.In the last sentence on post #61 you said;If you don`t know what the actual hardness is you cain`t reproduce it. thanks for your help.

[evan price]

blackbike: You are on the right track. Softer than a #2 (HB) pencil but not much softer than that is great for nonmagnum applications. Harder than HB is good for Magnums. Anything faster (like rifle) you need a harder pencil. This is a good quick rule of thumb.

[blackbike]

Thank you evan price. I think this pencil hardnes test is a good indicater and a good investment. this will be very helpfull. Easy too. I`ll get a set. Thanks again. blackbike

[bpratl]

Is there a chart that shows Brinell to pencil number between 6 BNH and 24 BNH?

[Molly]

Is there a chart that shows Brinell to pencil number between 6 BNH and 24 BNH?

There was a rough chart posted earlier.

[Stub]

interesting technique, please keep posted if the results arise from anyone you know of the Pb hardness is answered in regards to the other alloy hardnesses and their graphite equals.

[Molly]

interesting technique, please keep posted if the results arise from anyone you know of the Pb hardness is answered in regards to the other alloy hardnesses and their graphite equals.

Waddesay???

[Dr.Phil]

I'm new to this forum & casting but would like to thank everyone for providing such a valuble resource.

I'm putting the information aquired from this thread into my casting notes.
Here is what I have so far:

Lead Hardness Testing using the Staedtler scale

Staedtler Hardness Chart:
8B Sheet lead
7B
6B Lead wire 5 BHN
5B 40/1 lead / tin
4B
3B 1/20 tin/lead 10 BHN
3B Clip-on WW
2B Range scrap
B 20/1 Lead / tin
B Quenched range scrap
B Air cooled WW
B WW+2% tin
HB Lyman #2 15 Bhn
F Lyman #2
F Commercial cast
H 50/50 Lino /WW
H Linotype 20 Bhn
2H Quenched WW
2H Monotype
3H
4H

Rough BHN to Staedtler Hardness Conversion Chart:
6B = Pure lead, about 5 BHN
5B
4B
3B = 1in20 tin/lead alloy, age softened, about 10 BHN
2B
B
HB = Lyman no 2 alloy, about 15 BHN
H = Linotype, supposedly about 22 BHN, but that seems high
2H
3H
4H

Testing Protocol:
The correct way of using the pencils is to find the softest pencil that will CUT INTO the surface. You should be able to see a tiny curl or chip of lead that is peeled out of the surface."

Start by flattening a small section of the alloy surface with a file. The base of a large caliber bullet is sufficient. Peel the wood away from the graphite core of the pencil, which is a thin rod. Then sand the tip of that rod to a 90 degree angle by rubbing it across a sheet of 500 or 600 grit sandpaper while holding it straight up and down. If the pencil skids over the alloy surface, even if it leaves a slight scratch, its still not harder than the lead alloy.

The hold the pencil at a 45 degree angle with the surface you are testing, and push down along the length of the pencil, as if you are trying to shove a knife point into the surface. If you try to push the pencil across the surface as if you are writing on in, you will get a much 'softer' result, because the edge won't be cutting into the surface, it will just be rubbing across the surface.

Work your way up to progressively harder pencils, until you get to one where the sharp edge of the pencil "meplat" really digs into the surface, pushing up a curl or mound of alloy in front of it. At that point you stop and consider the hardest pencil that will not dig into the alloy in this manner, to be the "Staedtler" rating of the alloy in question.

For example, my little store of 1in20 (tin-lead) alloy skids on a 3B but digs in on a 2B, therefore its Staedtler hardness is 3B. Some Hornady swaged lead bullets I have will skid on 4B but dig in on 3B, therefore the Staedtler hardness rating is 4B. I also suggest we stick to the Staedtler Mars Lumograph pencil sets, since the maker claims they conform to ASTM standard D-4236 for consistency. They are cheap and readily available at Office Depot and other stores.


If any of this information is incorrect or if anyone thinks there should be additional information included, please let me know and I will update this post to reflect it.
This way any new users can get everything they need in one spot without having to assemble it from several pages of posts.

[Molly]

I'm new to this forum & casting but would like to thank everyone for providing such a valuble resource.

I'm putting the information aquired from this thread into my casting notes.
Here is what I have so far:

Lead Hardness Testing using the Staedtler scale

Staedtler Hardness Chart:
8B Sheet lead
7B
6B Lead wire 5 BHN
5B 40/1 lead / tin
4B
3B 1/20 tin/lead 10 BHN
3B Clip-on WW
2B Range scrap
B 20/1 Lead / tin
B Quenched range scrap
B Air cooled WW
B WW+2% tin
HB Lyman #2 15 Bhn
F Lyman #2
F Commercial cast
H 50/50 Lino /WW
H Linotype 20 Bhn
2H Quenched WW
2H Monotype
3H
4H

Rough BHN to Staedtler Hardness Conversion Chart:
6B = Pure lead, about 5 BHN
5B
4B
3B = 1in20 tin/lead alloy, age softened, about 10 BHN
2B
B
HB = Lyman no 2 alloy, about 15 BHN
H = Linotype, supposedly about 22 BHN, but that seems high
2H
3H
4H

Testing Protocol:
The correct way of using the pencils is to find the softest pencil that will CUT INTO the surface. You should be able to see a tiny curl or chip of lead that is peeled out of the surface."

Start by flattening a small section of the alloy surface with a file. The base of a large caliber bullet is sufficient. Peel the wood away from the graphite core of the pencil, which is a thin rod. Then sand the tip of that rod to a 90 degree angle by rubbing it across a sheet of 500 or 600 grit sandpaper while holding it straight up and down. If the pencil skids over the alloy surface, even if it leaves a slight scratch, its still not harder than the lead alloy.

The hold the pencil at a 45 degree angle with the surface you are testing, and push down along the length of the pencil, as if you are trying to shove a knife point into the surface. If you try to push the pencil across the surface as if you are writing on in, you will get a much 'softer' result, because the edge won't be cutting into the surface, it will just be rubbing across the surface.

Work your way up to progressively harder pencils, until you get to one where the sharp edge of the pencil "meplat" really digs into the surface, pushing up a curl or mound of alloy in front of it. At that point you stop and consider the hardest pencil that will not dig into the alloy in this manner, to be the "Staedtler" rating of the alloy in question.

For example, my little store of 1in20 (tin-lead) alloy skids on a 3B but digs in on a 2B, therefore its Staedtler hardness is 3B. Some Hornady swaged lead bullets I have will skid on 4B but dig in on 3B, therefore the Staedtler hardness rating is 4B. I also suggest we stick to the Staedtler Mars Lumograph pencil sets, since the maker claims they conform to ASTM standard D-4236 for consistency. They are cheap and readily available at Office Depot and other stores.


If any of this information is incorrect or if anyone thinks there should be additional information included, please let me know and I will update this post to reflect it.
This way any new users can get everything they need in one spot without having to assemble it from several pages of posts.

Good summary! I like it enough to suggest we make this thread a sticky, and move the summary to the first or second entry to make it easy to find. Anyone else think so?

[750k2]

I took the dive on a set - I use a bunch of alloys - so called.
Pretty new and just keep my batches separate.
Kept them apart by the sound of hitting the floor.
Gonna try and be a little more professional about this stuff.
Figure I can make one big batch of alloy with at least a little
consistency.
Now the hard part - doin that math type ratio stuff to get all the
smelt close to the same[smilie=s:

16$ shipped E-bay

[glassparman]

This has been a very interesting read. I've been wondering how hard this ingot is that I have. I've been carting it around for many years thinking I would get started in casting my own boolits.

Has anyone heard about Pacific Smelting? I have not tried to test the hardness other that trying to scratch it with a screwdriver. It seems fairly hard and I don't think a pencil would make a dent on it but i'll see what hardness pencils I have tomorrow and try it.

This ingot is about 18 inches long, 1.5 inches thick and I think it weighs about 75 lbs. The brown stuff is sawdust 'cause this is in my woodshop :)

http://www.classicglasspars.com/stuff/ingot.jpg

Michael

[BadDaditood]

Greetings and thanx! I joined up moments ago to thank you all for so much information :) Till now I had no clue what i've been flinging downrange the past 20 years.
After reading the first couple posts i ran out and got a Staedtler set and immediately did the test wrong... i read all 4 pages tonite and will re-test my stuff tomorrow :)

I did a quick google search for glassparman's ingot... ( i had no idea the Pacific Smelt was *threatened*... have no fear little fishies, our President put you on the Endangered Species list.)

oops, it's Pacific Smelting... sorry, i got sidetracked...

let's see, there's a Pacific Smelting Foundation in Torrance CA

Someone selling a Pacific Smelting and Mining Co. stock certificate Circa 1916.
(It looks a lot like the Oregon Nut Growers certificates my grandfather got stuck with in 1929.... maybe i can sell them?)

Could be a very old ingot, have fun with it glassparman :)

thanx again Molly and all :)

[glassparman]

OK, so I cut about a 2" strip off the end of the ingot shown in my post above. I cut it with my Craftsman 12" bandsaw with a coarse blade. It cut fairly easy but I could not go real fast.

It is nice and shiny on the inside and seems extremely hard. I went out to my shop and got out my old drafting pencils and found a 6H. That is fourth down from the top on the hardest end of pencil grading. It did not scratch the ingot no matter what I did. Using anything metal like a screw driver, gouges it without a problem.

What is the upper end of hardness that would be considered too hard for casting bullets?

[Molly]

OK, so I cut about a 2" strip off the end of the ingot shown in my post above. I cut it with my Craftsman 12" bandsaw with a coarse blade. It cut fairly easy but I could not go real fast.

It is nice and shiny on the inside and seems extremely hard. I went out to my shop and got out my old drafting pencils and found a 6H. That is fourth down from the top on the hardest end of pencil grading. It did not scratch the ingot no matter what I did. Using anything metal like a screw driver, gouges it without a problem.

What is the upper end of hardness that would be considered too hard for casting bullets?

I don't believe there IS a upper end of hardness for cassting bullwets per se, though there undoubtedly is an upper end for casting bullets that expand on game. But for simple target shooting, both zinc and aluminum have been used successfully, and both are far harder than lead alloys.

However, your failure to cut with a 6H pencil suggests that you have either conducted the test incorrectly, or you may be testing a zinc ingot, not a lead ingot. You can re-read the technique above, and it's not too hard to run the specific gravity of your sample to check whether it's a lead alloy or not. Here's how:

Step one is to simply weigh a sample of the alloy, just as you would weigh a cast bullet.
Step two is to position your scale so that the weighing pan is over a cup of water.
Step three is to tie a bit of string to the end of the weighing pan and re-zero the scale to compensate for its weight.
Step four is to tie your sample to the string, which must be long enough to allow you to immerse the sample in water.
Step five is to immerse the sample and reweigh it. (Lift up the cup of water until the sample is completely under water and keep it there while you re-weigh.)

You can ignore the effect of the srting, as it will have little to no discernable effect. That will give you all the information you need to determine the specific gravity of your sample, and the math is really simple too.

I'll just pull some numbers out of my head to illustrate the technique: Water has a specific gravity of 1.000 gram per CC. You can determine the volume of your sample by subtracting the weight in water from the weight in air. So if your first sample weight was 340 grains, and the immersed weight was 270 grains, the diference is 70 grains. 1 Grain = 0.06479891 Grams, and 70 grains equal (70*0.0648) = 4.536 grams, or 4.536 cc volume. 340 grains * 0.0648 = 22.032 grams. Now you can calculate Specific Gravity as weight in grams / volume in CC's, or 22.032/4.536 = 4.857 grams per cc.

Zinc has a specific gravity of about 7.0, and lead is about 11.4. Many lead alloys will be closer to 11.0 because tin and antimony are lighter than lead. So if your specific gravity is close to 7, you have a zinc ingot. If it's above say 10.5, you have probably got a lead alloy.

Hope this helps

[glassparman]

Molly, so I cut a 2"x2"x1/4" strip and dropped a couple of drops of Muriatic Acid on it and it foamed wildly for about 15 seconds, turned the metal black and then settled down slowly. Sorry, I read your post above and it was way above my head so I thought I would test it the "bubba" way.

You think it is Zinc? If it is Zinc, should I try to trade it away for the equivalent of lead or use it somehow? My apologies but I'm new to the casting stuff.

thanks for your help.
Michael

[BadDaditood]

it's real shiny where you cut it? you may have 75 lbs of worthless junk, like silver.

send it to me, i'll pay the freight :razz:

[glassparman]

it's real shiny where you cut it? you may have 75 lbs of worthless junk, like silver.

send it to me, i'll pay the freight :razz:

LOL! Yeah, that would be great wouldn't it. I've been carting around this 75 pound ingot of "junk" for 15 years!

Hmmmm, I could sure use 40K right now! :redneck:

[Molly]

Molly, so I cut a 2"x2"x1/4" strip and dropped a couple of drops of Muriatic Acid on it and it foamed wildly for about 15 seconds, turned the metal black and then settled down slowly. Sorry, I read your post above and it was way above my head so I thought I would test it the "bubba" way.

You think it is Zinc? If it is Zinc, should I try to trade it away for the equivalent of lead or use it somehow? My apologies but I'm new to the casting stuff.

thanks for your help.
Michael

ROFL at myself! I got so tied up in specific gravity that it didn't even occur to me to suggest another way to test your ingot. But your test is about as definitive as mine. Lead is notable for low reactivity, while zinc is quite reactive. Your description of the reaction to Muriatic acid tells me that there is something like 99 chances out of 100 that you have a zinc ingot, or at least a zinc alloy. There aren't too many other materials that would produce that result.

And while there are a few gunners who have made cast zinc bullets successfully, I'd strongly suggest you start out with a good LEAD alloy. In order to cast most zinc alloys, the melt has to be close to cherry red, if not actually glowing. That's well above the limitations of most lead pots to handle, and even if you manage that, the residues from trying to use zinc will probably ruin the next batch or two of lead that you try to use. Lead and zinc aren't very compatible, and it only takes a trace of zinc to ruin a whole lot of lead. The zinc raises the surface tension so that it's almost impossible to cast a good lead bullet.

Sorry to bring you the bad news, but I wouldn't wish a zinc contaminated pot on my worst enemy. Better that you learn about it from hearing than from bitter experience as I did.

[glassparman]

Thanks Molly. I'm new to all this so the KISS method is best for me :mrgreen:

I have a local metal recycler here so I'll just hit him up about maybe an exchange. So what specifically should I ask for if I want to get into casting Boolits?

I'll probably try my hand at casting boolits for my 45 ACP and my .303 British so whatever is best for both types.

Michael

[Molly]

I have a local metal recycler here so I'll just hit him up about maybe an exchange. So what specifically should I ask for if I want to get into casting Boolits?

I'll probably try my hand at casting boolits for my 45 ACP and my .303 British so whatever is best for both types.
Michael

Well, the most versatile common lead alloy is probably the clip-on type of wheelweights (largely known here as "WW". You can tinker it into a suitable hardness for almot any application, and for the two rounds you mention, it would be hard to beat. Even better, but scarce and hard to find would be printing type metal such as linotype. Print metal is great as is, and can be used to harden the occasional potfull of soft scrap metal.

Notes: 1) If you get any glued-on wheelweights, thank the man and trade it to someone on this website. It's just pure lead and too soft for most uses, though it's the best thing going for muzzle loaders.
2) If you happen to get a wheelweight that doesn't want to melt into your batch of lead, pick it out with a pair of pliers, run it under the water from your sink and toss it in the trash. It's almost sure to be zinc, and its loss is cheap insurance against losing the whole pot. (see above)

[SHOOTER IN EXILE]

I appreciate the experience of the casters who have `posted on this thread, however for over 40 years I have used 90% wheel weight and 10 % solder tin with great results. Almost no leading. I rifles I would add some 5% more Tin. I grease the bullets with 50 /50 lard and beewax or with candle wax and vaseline according to my needs. Casting wax from dentist material providers is great for hot rounds but a bit tricky to use. Greasing is very important, I have rarely noticed leading in my gun barrels. I'm cheap but lucky a few days ago, a friend gave me for free a bucket full of WW and another gave me over 100 pounds of pure lead, also for free. I think I should find a radiator shop friend.

[mktacop]

Many thanks to those who figured out the pencil test and broke them down into approximate BHNs. I picked up a set of pencils at WallWorld yesterday and tested my boolits to see where they were. According to the test, they are about 11-12 BHN which is right where I wanted them to be for my .45. :2_high5:

[Rayc384]

I was wondering what pencil would be used to detect 40-1 hardness.

[Molly]

I was wondering what pencil would be used to detect 40-1 hardness.

Hi RayC,

There really isn't a table that you can refer to and say "I want 12 Brinnell or a 20:1 or a 30:1 alloy, so this table says I should formulate for a pencil hardness of about "X".

All we have is a dirt cheap and simple way to check the hardness of an alloy sample. We are blessed with enough experimenters who report back their private results that we have the beginnings of such a table (reported somewhere above), but it's still embryonic at best.

Hey! Wouldn't it be worth five or seven bucks for a hardness tester that would enable you to check and reproduce the alloy you are using now? Why don't YOU spend a few bucks at Wally's (like I said, they're dirt cheap) for pencils and test the hardness of YOUR alloys. Then you can reproduce your hardness any time you want. And you get the extra gravy of being a contributor to our data base. The more guys contributing, the more accurate and reliable our table will be for all of us.

[Rayc384]

I have purchased the pencils and went through my supply of lead. It was either pure lead or 20-1 at the softest. I need to cast some softer alloy and hoped someone had done this before.

[Molly]

I have purchased the pencils and went through my supply of lead. It was either pure lead or 20-1 at the softest. I need to cast some softer alloy and hoped someone had done this before.

Ummm. Sorry about the assumption that you haven't tried the pencils, but you really have me lost at sea with the rest of your response. I have NO idea what metallic alloy you might find that is softer than pure lead or 20-to-one.

Ummm. That's not quite true: Mercury is a possibility, but only in theory. Casting and freezing a mercury bullet to solidify it would be a real exercise in applied theory, and firing one would be exceeding hazardous from the metallic fumes. Besides which mercury is almost sure to quickly form a hard amalgam with most other metals.

A plastic bullet of some sort might be your best bet, but I'm really lost as to what your need is, and why. Barring that, swagging bullet breaks down the internal crystal structure that gives lead alloys their hardness. As a result, swagging will give you the softest bullet from most lead alloys. You might try casting from the softest alloy you have, and then swagging it in a hammer-and-die swage.

Why not talk out what you are looking for in some detail, and perhaps we might still be able to help you.

[Rayc384]

I guess that I was not clear, I was trying to get an idea for an alloy between the pure lead and 20-1 with the pencil othrs had tried for 40-1. I reckon I`ll blend the two.

[Molly]

Not an unreasonable objective, but frankly, I don't know that the spacing of pencil hardness levels is either uniform or sensitive enough for your purposes.

You may be forced to fall back on the more cumbersome and expensive ball indentation method. It's also more expensive, but not terribly so. IIRC, All you really need is a one inch steel ball and one of the optical measuring magnifiers to measure the width of the ball impression.

There's a formula that incorporates applied weight and the impression diameter to give you precise hardness, but I don't have it off the top of my head. If you have any further interest, I'm sure someone can post it for you.

[slowhand47]

http://www.gardco.com/pages/hardness/wolffwilborngardco.cfm

Just going to do some name dropping. The above link has a great deal of Info on Pencil Hardness testing , also I presume quality supplies .

I copied and pasted this link from my broswer so may be it will work. But the company is there
-
Paul N. Gardner Company, Inc. • 1.800.762.2478 • Fax 954.946.9309

I did not ask about posting this Info; I also presumed it would be beneficial to all concerned? please PM any bad news -rather than posting. THNX

[Max Brand]

I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I especially appreciate the fact that this method is so effective even with old eyes like mine and so much better than trying to interpolate a caliper under a magnifying glass.

[Harv33]

I'm grading a bunch of lead that I have collected with the Steadtler pencils.
Molly, I'm a bit confused on the ratings you have as: One is 1/20 tin lead = 3B
The other is 20/1 Lead tin = B ?
Some spread there, Im hitting for 10BHN or less..
Thanks ,, the chart is a great help and save a lot of grumbling and mumbling !!! :smile:

[Molly]

Hi Harv,

>Molly, I'm a bit confused on the ratings you have as: One is 1/20 tin lead = 3B. The other is 20/1 Lead tin = B ? Some spread there, Im hitting for 10BHN or less.

You (and anyone else using this technique) need to understand that it is not the sort of thing that is accurate to several decimal places. There are a lot of places for inconsistencies to creep in. For one thing, the art pencils are NOT made to a hardness specification. The process consists of a team of experienced artists who sit around a table and drag the latest lot of pencils across a sheet of paper, judging the darkness of the mark, and the 'drag' or resistance to being moved across the paper. Then they give their judgement: "Yep, that a "B" pencil, all right!" And that lot of pencils is labeled with whatever the majority decides.

Not only that, but these pencills are made by quite a few different companies, with different blends of clay, graphite and other ingredients, mixed on different types of equipment and baked at different temperatures. It has long been recognized that for best uniformity, the manufacturer should be specified and agreed between supplier and customers. A proper specification isn't the frequently seen >2H. It's >2H using Eagle brand pencils.

Now we get to the operator. I was notorious for finding readings softer than other people in the laboratory. Even with the same brand and lot of pencils, inconsistencies can creep in because one fellow will do a better job of sharpening the edge of the core used to test the lead. Or it may not be quite at a 90 degree angle to the length of the pencil. Or the pencil may not be held at quite the proper 45 degree angle to the surface being tested. Or the operator may push the pencil across the test surface as though he is writting a letter, instead of pushing the pencil straight down along its axis.

It's been many a moon since I read the ASTM procedure on pencil hardness testing, but IIRC, the variability in results between two different but experienced operators, using the same manufacturer and lots of pencils, testing the same surface should not be more than one pencil hardness. This can be read as suggesting that - considering the potential variability in test pencils, operators and test procedures - a difference of one or two pencils is not entirely unreasonable.

Now lest someone throw up his hands is dispair, let me point out that the test has been found useful in industry for a very long time. There is no reason that it shouldn't be equally useful for us. The trick is to have realistic expectations of its precision and accuracy. If you try to compare your results - which were of course done with great care and attention to detail - to those from someone who simply swipes the bullet or ingot with a rounded core tip, you will NOT get good consistency. All you can deduce from those variables is that the bullet is at least as hard as the softest pencil reported.

The real value of these is that you can compare YOUR results with what you got with your last batch of alloy. The fact that you will eleminate variables in the pencil manufacture, core composition and core bake, combined with minimizing variables in the operator technique, environmental temperature and the like will produce much greater uniformity of results. From one batch to the next, there should not be more than a single pencil hardness variablity at the most, and - with care - an experienced operator can even obtain complete reproduction of the test value.

However, there is still value in comparing your results with those of others: If other people are reporting harder results from the (nominally) same alloy belnd, it suggests rather strongly that they are doing a better job of preparing the pencil core and a better job of running the test. It could be telling you that you need to review your procedures for better results. If the other fellow is using the same brand of pencill and getting harder results, you can pretty well rely on that.

The above cited link to Guardner company will richly repay the few minutes it takes to look it over.

[Harv33]

Thank you very much Molly. I am happy with the way it has worked out with my various lead batches. I was just curious on the 20/1 to the 1/20 that is clear now.
You have put a lot of work on this,,much appreciated !!!
Harv.

[Shooter6br]

i use drawing pencils to test appox alloys 25-1 to linotype Great for testing scrap you buy at the site of purchase

[Molly]

OK fellows,
I've gone through the entire thread and summarized it as follows. While it isn't scientifically accurate to say that X pencil is equal to Y Brinell, a rough correspondence CAN be made, which follows. Note that the results reflect the expected variation of this test when run by different people, using different makes and lots of pencils on different alloys of different ages. All told, this is probably about as good or as consistent as we're going to get. But it's only a rough guide. Your results, using your pencils and your procedures will be a lot more consistent, which is what the test was recommended for: It's a way of duplicating YOUR alloy hardness, not the other guys hardness. All the following will do is tell you if you're in the same ballpark as the other guy. But it's interesting. Enjoy.

8B Sheet Lead
7B
6B ~ 5 BHN Pure Lead (Lead wire)
5B 40/1 (Plumbers Lead)
4B 25/1
3B ~10 BHN 20/1 ACWW
2B 20/1 ACRS
B ~12 BHN 20/1 ACWW (ACWW+2% Tin) WDRS
HB ~15 BHN (Lyman #2) (#2 Pencil)
F (Lyman #2) (ACWW+2% Tin) WDWW
H ~20 BHN Lino 50/50
2H Monotype (WDWW)


Notes
40/1 = 40 Lead / 1 Tin
20/1 = 20 Lead / 1 Tin
25/1 = 25 Lead / 1 Tin
50/50 = 1:1 Lino:WW
ACRS = Air Cooled Range Scrap
ACWW = Air Cooled (Clip-on) WW
COWW = Clip-On WW
Lino = Linotype
WDRS = Water Dropped Range Scrap
WDWW = Water Dropped (clip-on) WW
SOWW = Stick-On WW
One pencil = 1.875 AVERAGE Brinell over the range of 6B to H pencil hardness, but I wouldn't assume that the range in hardness is exactly equal from one pencil to the next, as that number would suggest.

[sthwestvictoria]

I found these rules of thumb to hold here as well. I used Staedler pencils in the range 6B to HB.

Soft lead (roof flashing and old fishing weights) dug in at 5B, 4B skated over = 4B hardness.

Air Cooled WW (clip on only) air cooled ingots dug in at HB, B skated = B hardness.

[Elkins45]

http://www.gardco.com/pages/hardness/wolffwilborngardco.cfm

Just going to do some name dropping. The above link has a great deal of Info on Pencil Hardness testing , also I presume quality supplies .

I copied and pasted this link from my broswer so may be it will work. But the company is there
-
Paul N. Gardner Company, Inc. • 1.800.762.2478 • Fax 954.946.9309

I did not ask about posting this Info; I also presumed it would be beneficial to all concerned? please PM any bad news -rather than posting. THNX

I found it incredibly interesting myself, as I have also found the rest of this thread. I'm off to Wally World to pick up some pencils!

[rhouser]

I really have found pencil testing to be useful in comparing metals. Is my current metal softer or harder than my old metal. Are my 2 month old cast bullets harder or softer than my week old bullets.

I also keep a small set of 1/2 lb ingots of known metal eg: rotometal superhard, linotype, clipon wheelweight, rotometal lyman 2, rotometal 20:1, 50/50 solder, and pure soft. I can then compare my latest work metal to known values as well. These are just small ingots cast with a lyman .5 lb mold, but, again, they give me a known value and I trust my pencils to tell me if I am harder softer or about the same as any of these.

I ended up with the 19 pencil staedtler set which gives me quite a range to work with.
Pencil testing provides me a repeatable quality control measure at a GREAT price.

BIG +1 on the Gardco site. That is a really good read.

Thanks to all who contribute to this thread.
rc

[ArrowJ]

It seems like a device similar to the one offered by Gardner could be whipped up by those with a machine shop (not me). Just a block with a hole drilled to hold the pencil at the correct angle etc. Seems like it could be done.

Anyway, I am getting my hardness testers tomorrow...at office depot.

[Sasquatch-1]

I would also like to say that this thread is very useful. The only problem is I had to read through 6 pages of the same thing to get to a post that mentioned how to actually do the test.

I would like to suggest that a sticky be made that list the table that was painstakingly developed by several of the members and the actual directions of how to do the test is done and be locked so no other comments can be added.

Just a suggestion and I hope someone takes it to heart.

[meshugunner]

I haven't yet read all six pages - though I will. I draw with pencil I am something of a graphite pencil nut. I have several hundred of all different kinds.

In my experience there is no standard between manufacturers. Staedtler Mars pencils (one of my faves) tend to be softer on average than Derwent and Derwent Sketching are not the same as Derwent Drafting pencils. Furthermore the increments are not uniform. Sometimes there is a big difference between between two adjacent values sometimes they are almost identical. Finally there are differences between batches

IMO if you are going to use this technique, which does sound interesting, buy one complete set and always use those.

[cactus clay]

chas, i'm new to this whole thing but am a plumber and have cut out quit a bit of lead pipe and melted into ingots. on this pencil test, i assume u push the point ahead of the pencil? is there a optimum angle to have the pencil? i searched around but couldn't find a description of exactly how you test. thnx for ur help in advance.

[fecmech]

The idea is to sand a flat point on the pencil lead and push it into the sample while holding the pencil at about a 45 deg angle to try and scrape off the lead. If the pencil is harder you will get a little gouge in the lead. If the lead is harder you get powdered graphite.

[dnmccoy]

I found 4 packs for as low as $2.99
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p216/dnmccoy/20121102_200626.jpg

[cactus clay]

thank u sir

[kelbro]

Got my pencils today. Checked some SOWW, some COWW, some Isotope, and some Lyman #2 and this method seems to be right on. My only concern was that I have a bunch of linotype ingots and my hardest pencil didn't put a gouge in them. Must have some monotype mixed in.

[jws957]

I'm new to casting and this is my first post; I really appreciated this thread, so I wanted to contribute. I decided to get into casting because I shoot into a bullet trap on my land that enables me to recover lead. The lead I've recovered is mostly from plated bullets with some FMJ as well. I don't know what different companies use for lead alloy for FMJ or plated bullets; I did ask one company but never got an answer. So, I decided to buy some different alloys from RotoMetals to "calibrate" my Staedtler pencil set. With the exception of the pure lead below, the pencil hardness listed below is the pencil that doesn't scratch the material, the next harder one scratches it. Here's what I got:

8B RotoMetals 99% pure lead ingot is softer than this, the 8B pencil scratches it
7B
6B
5B
4B
3B
2B Recovered lead from plated and FMJ bullets, also RotoMetals Antimonial Lead that is 4-6% Antimony
B RotoMetals Lyman #2 alloy and RotoMetals 99.8% pure Tin
HB Hunter's Supply Hardcast bullets
F RotoMetals Super Hard Alloy (30% Antimony-70% Lead)
H
2H
etc.

I found that mixing 5-6 lbs of recovered lead with one ingot (4.2lbs) of linotype and about 1/4 lb tin produced bullets in the B to HB range. Hope this helps someone!

[GunFun]

Thank you very much for this practical work.

This is infinately more valuable than most of the hypothesizing that occurs on technical forums.
As a broke guy, I cannot afford a tool that costs $80 for the cheap brand. As a new caster, this can save me from making a mess of my work, produce more consistent bullets, and eliminate variables if I have problems.I could not have known what I was working with before reading your valuable thread.

[coyotewacker]

I'am new to casting but a reloader for 40+ years. I have 3- 80 lbs. + ingots of hard lead they have been sitting in the garage for 20+ years.
The pencil method should give me a ball park start to what I have.

[Remyvtr15]

Let's see....Set of pencils new cost ~$10 at Office Depot
Ames Hardness Tester new cost ~ $1650
That used price for the Ames would have to go down an awful lot just to get below the price of a Saeco tester, a Cabine Tree tester, a Lee tester, and a set of pencils combined.....
I'm sure the Ames is a good piece of equipment but some of us are froooogal......

Or poor

This is about the coolest and most useful thread I've come across.... and there's ALOT of cool and useful stuff on here... Amazing place

[shakey]

I am going to run out and get the pencils today. I have sheet lead melted into ingots, WW melted and range scrap plus lead piping. I am new to casting and this thread helped alot.

Thanks to Molly and everyone else who contributed to this thread.

I copied and printed out the relative hardness of the leads and will keep it with the pencils.

[Dale53]

shakey;
There are six pages of this thread and I am not going back and re-reading them. So, if I'm repeating something previously said, just ignore it.

That said, keep in mind that after lead is melted and cooled it will take two weeks (actually longer but nearly all of the hardness change will be done in two weeks) for the lead hardness to stabilize. Any readings taken before the "resting period" will be invalid. That is a pain, I know, but if you want proper readings, it is necessary to wait...

FWIW
Dale53

[shakey]

Thank you Dale as I did read all the pages but did not remember that part of it. I should be ok as my WW were melted a month ago and the piping about 2 weeks ago and just started on the sheets of lead.

[s1120]

This is a great post!!

Im just getting into casting, and I have a lot of lead that my dad smelted into ingnets, and I have NO IDEA what types of lead he used. Is it pure, WW stuff, or harder. This is a great idea for a guy like me that will give me a baseline of what lead I have. I dont need to know the exact numbers.... just if some is harder, or softer... thanks!!!

[Kull]

Great thread, really great, read all six pages. Picked up the set of 12 Staedtler Mars Lumograph (6B-4H) at Office Depot. Online price shows $20 but in store in was $10.

[Jay561]

Great thread, love the tips. Would of never thought of this.

[jws957]

Update to my post of 12/29/2012

I found that mixing about 9 lbs of recovered lead with 5.4lbs of linotype and 0.4 lbs tin gave bullets in the range of 2B to B for a "doesn't scratch" test. Used these in 45ACP loads and these didn't lead the barrels at all, while the slightly harder (B to HB) mix above did slightly, using the same powder/wt, etc. I also re-tested some of the recovered lead ingots and found that a 3B pencil didn't scratch. So I guess you can get a range of results with this method.

[Kull]

I used this method, as described my Molly and others, to test various alloys I got from Rotometals.

Rotometals Pure Lead - 6B, actually softer than 6B like someone else reported.
Rotometals 20/1 - 3B, as expected.
Rotometals Antimony Lead - 3B, same as 20/1.
Rotometals Hardball - HB, as expected.

Some Linotype pieces I just got from a fellow member and cast in to three pound ingots - F, for what it's worth.

The 20/1 vs Antimony Lead test to me shows it's not a test that can differentiate between 10 and 13 BHN, but it sure can narrow you down to one of four hardness levels. Super soft, soft, medium, and hard......now I want to watch Formula One. Pretty good method all things considered, can't beat it for 10 bucks.

[ken s]

one last thought. I'm a GIA Gemologist. diamonds etc. the old 'test a diamond if it scratches glass' well...on a MO's scale for gem hardness, diamond is a 10 and glass is a one. now..diamond, being harder WILL scratch glass, but so will GLASS being the same hardness.
basically, anything harder than the glass including glass will scratch it. so the 'test' is a bust.
pure lead will scratch pure lead, and so will anything harder.
so, if you use pure lead, and it scratches the lead you're testing, that should be pure lead...

[yamavira]

Any chance of a picture of the ideal point for a test pencil !!.

[Kull]

Any chance of a picture of the ideal point for a test pencil !!.

No point. Just cut off the core at a 90 degree angle. Like you would cut off a piece of pipe.

[Dale53]

Molly was my personal friend. He described the test to me exactly like Kull stated above. Just carefully remove the wood from around the end of a pencil of the appropriate hardness. Then, make certain that the end is right angles to the shank (carefully use a piece of abrasive paper, if necessary). It is important that the edge be sharp...

FWIW
Dale53

[BubbaJon]

Dunno how I missed this thread but I'm glad I found it. Went out after work and snagged a set of pencils. The two commercial boolits I had agreed with the manufacturers claim at 16 BHN (Dardas) and 20 BHN (lasercast). My alloy showed I was correct thinking it was a tad soft at 10 BHN.
Thanks to y'all clever folks I can stop guessing!

[mto7464]

picked some up on ebay for 12 bucks delivered.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/350744940919?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

[Teddy (punchie)]

Got a set of art (drawing) pencils. At PaT Catan's for five dollars.

Pure lead ; tested at 4B , 5B and 6B too soft.
Wheel weights; tested at H . Range Lead HB just a little softer then WW.

This pure lead; is 100 % pure was given to me years ago we were leading cabinets for medical field so had to be pure.

Was very easy to tell the difference in just the way if feels, with the pencil core going over the different metal.

[TenTea]

Thanks to all who posted here, as this thread has been an exceedingly helpful and interesting read.

I will begin Staedtler testing forthwith!

[Newshooter]

very useful information here. Thanks to everyone.

[destrux]

I read several time concerns from people who haven't tried this method about the effect of pressure and method on repeatability.

What I've observed in doing this is that as I work down in pencil hardness each pencil will scratch the test alloy just as easily as the last pencil did, till I reach the pencil that won't. Then no matter how much pressure or what angle I hold it at, it simply won't gouge the alloy. The pencil crumbles when you attempt to scratch alloy that's harder than the pencil is.

I've found it's easiest to simply use a pencil sharpener to get a sharp point on the pencil, then I try to gouge it into the surface at an angle, roughly 45 degrees. If it gouges, it gouges, if it doesn't, it crumbles and slides. Simple, and repeatable.

My results coincide with what others using other pencil methods have posted.

I tested some pure lead and found it to be softer than 8B.

Some stick-on WW ingots tested at 5B.

Clip-on WW ingots tested at HB

Water dropped clip-on WW bullets with 2% tin tested at 2H.

I got my pencils at Wal-mart, they were about $7 if I recall. They have the ASTM emblem on the back.

[JWFilips]

I would also like to note:
I have tried a number of different quality ( or not ) pencils sets & it appears that Staedtler is the more accurate for the purpose.
I tried others which gave lower readings and also higher readings with known samples of lead & lead alloy.
The Staedtler's seem to be right on ( & I feel can be trusted) to get you very close to the hardness you are testing.

Unfortunately I tried to save a buck in the begining and bought the lower price sets but noticed they didn't match what my borrowed Staedtlers were showing. I even went so far as to buy a more expensive brand because the art store was out of Staedtlers They too didn't get me as close Glad I finally got the true testing set. Save yourself some aggravation

[40-82 hiker]

Thanks, Molly and Rob. This is useful information. As I begin to gather data from using my new pencil set on samples from my store of boolit alloys, I am beginning to map out a scale of sorts - call it the Staedtler Scale, after the makers of these fine artist's pencils. So long as one sticks to that widely available brand of pencils and uses the correct technique, results will be similar. Molly observed spacing of about 1-3/4 BHN between some of the grades, perhaps at the softer end of the scale. Here's what I've gathered so far:

6B = Pure lead, about 5 BHN
5B
4B
3B = 1in20 tin/lead alloy, age softened, about 10 BHN
2B
B
HB = Lyman no 2 alloy, about 15 BHN
H = Linotype, supposedly about 22 BHN, but that seems high
2H
3H
4H

I offer this cheap but effective method of testing relative hardness, not particularly to convert pencil numbers to Brinell numbers, but rather as an alternate scale for boolit casters, with reference points to known alloys. If I pick up some scrap lead, or buy alloy from a smelter, I can quickly find out where it lies, relative to those other alloys. For example, my small stock of LaserCast brand commercial lead projectiles tested HB. I never had any luck with them, I've been saving them for the furnace, now I know approximately where they fit in as feedstock.

The bullets I cast from Lyman no 2 do very well in my rifles, with no leading at all. But methinks that alloy is too hard to maintain a tight seal in my revolver loads. So I'll try some of the 1in20 alloy, maybe with some Lino mixed in to boost it up into the 2B range. - CW

You are correct in recommending that brand of pencils ONLY to go with your research. Pencil manufacturers readily admit there is no industry standard for pencil hardness. They all use the same relative hardness designation, but they really only mean that one is harder or softer than another along an understandable scale. An "H" pencil from one manufacturer is not the same as from another, unless purely by chance. I ran into this problem in another venue a couple of years ago, and it caused me much frustration until I came upon this information.

Thanks for the research.

[seyoncorey]

I have read the entire thread and have been impressed!

I was at my local wally and found a set of pencils for $5 bucks. I tried them out on my WW lead and my pure lead and my mystery lead.

My WW lead came out to a HB, my pure lead came out to a 8B/6B, and the mystery lead came to B. This seems to be consistent to what has been reported so far.

My WW lead came from a 5 gallon bucket of weights I have collected for years so I know it came from WW. The pure lead came from a 40's ish 20kg calibration weight I found in the trash, lastly the mystery lead came from a race car friend of my that said it was old car weights.

My question is.. Do these values make sense to what you have all seen, and can anyone make sense of what old car racing weights are?

Thanks to everyone here!! I have come here many times to get advise as I am new to casting. This is a great place and many thanks to the people that share their experience and information.

[popper]

Think I finally got my hardness/toughness tester figured out. Wish I could use a torque wrench for measurement, but!! Cut an RCBS deprimer pin so it is 0.020" out from the holder. Screw it back into the sizer die I don't use anymore. Put a CB on the press and measure the force to push the pin all the way into the CB, the holder stops so I only go in 0.020". Use a fish scale to measure the force on the handle. Won't calibrate to BHN but will give a relative reference for my alloys and heat treating effects. So far, ~ 20-25 #. I just watch the scale and see what the # is just before it pops. Don't have to file or polish anything, no magnifying glass.
Edit: Tried a different approach, used a 9mm case in the 9mm die, adjusted the standard pin down 0.020". Tried several CBs, numbers came out the same. Difference in alloy is just different batches.
alloy #1
30-30 RD 180 23#
40SW A 165 22#
30-30 RD 180 14# Hi-Tek coated, HT 1 hr @ 250F

alloy #2
308 A 165 32# powder coated, HT 30 min @ 450F

Scale is a $20 berkley digital, 50# max. Press is a Lee classic cast.
Now I can validate different batches & casts. I can get a lot of lead for the >$100 for a tester.

[GunFun]

Air cooled ingots from lead pipe cut with 3B.

Bullets I got severe leading with tested to B

[popper]

First letter is for hardness, second is for blackness. I've used the Pentel version as you don't have to cut anything.

[DougGuy]

I too enjoyed this thread and invested in the Mars Staedtler Lumograph set, about $12 at Staples. I was looking at deciding on two different hardness levels for hunting boolits.

The boolit is dropped from the Lee C430-310-RF mold, it is their wide flat nose gas check design in .44 caliber. I use the softer one for deer, bear, thin skinned animals and I run it out of the muzzle about 1100f/s or so. The slightly harder alloy I push harder, 1300f/s and it is used for pigs.

One alloy is 50/50 coww and pure lead, with 2% tin added, it is the softer one that I can scratch with a thumbnail, it is a 3B, or BHN 10.

The other alloy is straight acww, can't scratch it with a thumbnail, it is a B, or BHN 14.

I didn't -really- need two specifically different alloys, could have done all my hunting with the acww, it was just something that interested me at the time, and I found the pencils a great aid in this effort.

[popper]

Got a an email on my technique so I thought I'd post a pic. I don't care about pistol, just rifle.
81392
i use a screw driver to preload the scale a few oz., takes the slack out. Use a business card like a feeler gauge to tell when the 'divit' is complete. I was going by feel previously and the numbers came out a little different. Very repeatable and after a calculation gives me the yield strength of the alloy. The H-T coating really softens the alloy where the PC heat treated works fine.

[eljefeoz]

Thats an interesting way too fix the scale!
thanks for the pic,Popper

[Boolseye]

Just got my set of pencils. Thank you!! Before this I had no way to check the hardness of my alloy, which is often random mixes of WW, range lead and pure.
BE

[carolina556]

Excellent....Excellent sticky! I always love when you can take simple tools and make them substitute for expensive contraptions....tomorrow I am going to get some of those pencils. Thanks for saving me a lot of money, and I love the old timey feel of this solution to estimating lead relative hardness....keep these tricks coming! The site is great because of ideas and brainstorming like this. Good work.

[texassako]

I made an interesting discovery with a set of Daler Rowney pencils I was using. I used them last year to judge how hard or soft the bulk of my lead might be. One group 2B and the other was HB, and I took that to be about 11-12BHN and about 15. This August I checked some more mystery lead I added to the collection and it was an H or about 22 BHN. Fast forward to last night when I received my Lee tester. The 2 old lots tested about where the pencils said they should be, 11 and 14.3. The newer lot that tested H was actually 14. I took out my 2B pencil and it would no longer mark the 11 BHN lead. Snapped the exposed tips off and reshaped them with a fresh tip and they worked properly again. I guess exposed cheap pencil lead can degrade in the heat and humidity of a Texas garage?

[stepmac]

I used to cast bullets like mad. Then I stopped, shooting mostly .22's and shotguns. I have been dragging my reloading/casting stuff along with me as I have moved from home to home and state to state.

I'm hot to get going, casting again. Trouble is I have no idea how hard my many little lead ingots are.

So what do you guys do in a similar situation? You don't toss all of that lead away do you? I'm thinking of tossing the ingots into my pot and fluxing them and taking pot luck and see what I get. I'm reloading for a Krag 30-40, 44/40's and 32/20's. (original guns). I'll shoot them slow. Won't this work okay?

[GunFun]

Why not test them via pencil method and set aside the harder ingots for later. IIRC, traditional loadings of 30-40 Krag call for pretty soft lead comparable to range scrap anyway. A couple of the commercial casters list recommended hardnesses for various applications, and I specifically recall one offering a bullet with optimized alloy for that caliber. At least look that up first.

Alternatively, Modern Reloading by Richard Lee 2nd Edition chapter 10 describes a method for deriving optimum hardness per max pressure in load data, as well as a multiplier method for estimating pressure of reduced charges, using the data in the rest of the book.


Keeping to the thread topic, I tested a batch of bullets from straight linotype spacers which mostly came to HB or F. When oven to cold water tempered at nominal 400 *f to ~40* fridge water, I got varying hardnesses from f to H, with only one bullet sampled at 2H. The variation doesn't make sense to me considering carefully controlled handling of the bullets to ensure consistent alloy and temper between them, using the methods from LASC's article. I actually wasted a bunch of beautiful bullets because I heated the first batch for an hour at 450 and most of them melted.

[Hanzy4200]

This whole concept is very interesting to me. All the searching I've done, and I've never heard of anything aside from the old thumbnail test or pony up the cash for a hardness tester. Finally a method that is within my budget. I can't believe I waited this long to join here. Much of my lead is from unknown sources and leaves me guessing.

I just picked up some odd weights from a scrapyard yesterday. They look like massive square wheel weights with no clip. Each weighed 10 lbs. Also some cylindrical pieces with a long thin notch in the middle. They looked to be some sort of plumb weight. Any ideas what these are and the hardness that could be expected? Paid $.60 a lb. and only lost about 4% weight after fluxing and ingot pouring.

[douglasskid]

I'm off to office depot to buy a set of pencils.

[armedmoose]

Read about using pencils to test lead on another forum... googled it.. landed back at one of my favorite places... :) thanks for this info!

[Rooster59]

Darnit.....and I drove right by Officemax today!

[waco]

Just ordered a set from Amazon. It will be nice to know a ballpark of what my alloy is.
Great thread.

[Socal147]

Three different batches and super hard from Rotometals.
Ended up with 3B/4B on my three different batches. I measured 334 then 344 on different samples from each batch. Each sample was tested multiple times. Surprised at results as I thought (incorrectly) that I had some lead that was: pure lead (batch 1) and 7% antimony (batch 2). Batch 3 was the WW lead I bought here. Perfect for me as I don't want or need a very hard mix and if I want it harder, I will just add some super hard.
The super hard came in at 2H testing two different samples multiple times.

Update: received my FROZONE PID controller today. My pot was liquid at around 620ish.

[Bigslug]

. . . but some of us are froooogal......

Yeah. Sure. We're frugal. Riiiiiiight.

Basic reloading kit: @ $300
Dies and shell holders: @$50 per caliber
Casting furnace: $60-$400
Heated lubrisizer: @$200
Boolit sizing dies: @$35 per diameter
Molds: Call it an average of $70 per
Calipers, micrometers, pin gauges, wad cutters, smelting pot and burner, etc. . .etc. . .etc. . .
Cabine Tree hardness tester: Drop in the freakin' ocean!

I expect a hardness tester is faster simply because with pencils you'll have to find the line between what will and won't scratch your sample, but what I DO like about the notion of this pencil test method is it's portable/field-expedient nature, and usefulness on larger blocks of metal. I carry collector's guides for certain firearms in the glove box of my car for the purpose of addressing "purchases of opportunity". Makes sense to throw a set of pencils, a cheap sharpening stone, and select printouts from this thread in there for the same reason. Guess I'm off to find some pencils.:drinks:

[Bogone]

Does anyone make an inexpensive hardness tester?

[GunFun]

The least expensive tester not made by Staedler is Lee. They go for around $65 and require a single stage press. I never see them used.

I'll be getting one eventually, but the pencils do fairly well in the meantime, and are a lot easier to use for a portable test kit when sampling lead at the scrap yard.

[Shooter6br]

Have used them for years Scratch testing

[skykingjohn]

think this chart came from lasc if some one knows please give credit 95881

[waco]

think this chart came from lasc if some one knows please give credit 95881

Just what I needed. Thanks!

[GunFun]

I made a vidja about this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfsEDav4Sbg

[benellinut]

I made a vidja about this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfsEDav4Sbg

Good job! Thank you, now I know how to shape the pencils and use them. I saved a copy of your video and put it in my "Cast Boolits" folder where I'm saving all the great info I'm learning from you guys. Slowly working my way to getting everything set up for my first casting, still to damn cold here and I don't want to melt lead inside the shop so it won't be until we get a few days in the 50's and without the winds knocking me over. I've still got a couple things to mock up and weld to keep the pot and stove secure while melting and a few more small things to order, pencil set is one of them, haven't found them locally. I'm hoping in a few weeks I'll have my first cast boolit dropped.

Thanks again for the video sir.

[62chevy]

Good job! Thank you, now I know how to shape the pencils and use them. I saved a copy of your video and put it in my "Cast Boolits" folder where I'm saving all the great info I'm learning from you guys. Slowly working my way to getting everything set up for my first casting, still to damn cold here and I don't want to melt lead inside the shop so it won't be until we get a few days in the 50's and without the winds knocking me over. I've still got a couple things to mock up and weld to keep the pot and stove secure while melting and a few more small things to order, pencil set is one of them, haven't found them locally. I'm hoping in a few weeks I'll have my first cast boolit dropped.

Thanks again for the video sir.


You should subscribe to his channel on Youtube. He puts out some very informative video. also another Youtuber is FortuneCookie45LC https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8mM8eaTSFODu1QpedvpInA both great sources of info on reloading and casting boolits.

[GunFun]

Thanks guys. I can't pretend to have added any info beyond what was here.

So I'll do that now.

I made some alloy of half pure lead half wheel weights which is my normal pistol alloy. I also took some straight wheel weights ingots from the same smelting session and made some rifle bullets. All were normalized in an oven at 400 for an hour and quenched. Interestingly the pencils said the 50/50 were a little harder. I thought this had to be wrong, but it checked out when I got the Lee hardness tester. I don't have a good explanation for this.

So I guess I didn't add any useful information, other than that the pencils and the Lee tester agree.

[62chevy]

PM me if you know of a very cheap source of birdshot, or an efficient way to make #4 Buck.

Check out Bubba Roundtree Outdoors he has some neat molds for buck shot and maybe birdshot. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnhZ4j12opJD0oDDbRGenxA

[nanuk]

Good job! Thank you, ..... I saved a copy of your video and put it in my "Cast Boolits" folder where I'm saving all the great info I'm learning from you guys. ....

and HOW do you do that?

I've been looking for software to do that... seems YouTube has a problem with downloading videos

[benellinut]

and HOW do you do that?

I've been looking for software to do that... seems YouTube has a problem with downloading videos

With keepvid.com, copy and paste the url of the video to that webpage and you can choose the format of the video you want to save it as, but it only works with youtube. You can also save the soundtrack of any youtube video and save it as an MP3 file using the sister website snipmp3.com

Links;

http://keepvid.com

http://snipmp3.com

[benellinut]

You should subscribe to his channel on Youtube. He puts out some very informative video. also another Youtuber is FortuneCookie45LC https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8mM8eaTSFODu1QpedvpInA both great sources of info on reloading and casting boolits.

Thank you, I'll do that! Lots to learn and you guys are a wealth of knowledge, todays kids have such a great advantage for finding info then when I was a kid.

I hope Obama doesn't cost us the internet by that hand off, I'll have to get my library card again if we do.

[skykingjohn]

got my pencels at walmart for like 6 to 8 dollars

[benellinut]

I looked in one WalMart just the other day and they didn't have any, I'll be heading south tomorrow and check another store. I also looked in craft stores that sell art supplies and nothing at any of those either. Not a big deal, I can always order them from Amazon.

[GunFun]

got my pencels at walmart for like 6 to 8 dollars

The reason I don't really advocate that is that while the hardnesses are theoretically consistent to any quality brand, the diameter of the graphite varies. This will mean my results don't translate as well to yours and vice versa. If we keep the official standard as the 'staedtler mars lumigraph' pencils then we still have individual pressure as a variable, but not the pencils. Keeping the pressure just below the level that would crumble the edge of the pencil is the best we can do for an easily describable uniform pressure.

If you don't want to share your findings, though just keep the same brand for yourself and you do have a reliable way to compare one batch of your lead to a previous batch.

That's just my thoughts on the topic. I want to be able to use other people's findings and vice versa.

[benellinut]

The reason I don't really advocate that is that while the hardnesses are theoretically consistent to any quality brand, the diameter of the graphite varies. This will mean my results don't translate as well to yours and vice versa. If we keep the official standard as the 'staedtler mars lumigraph' pencils then we still have individual pressure as a variable, but not the pencils. Keeping the pressure just below the level that would crumble the edge of the pencil is the best we can do for an easily describable uniform pressure.

If you don't want to share your findings, though just keep the same brand for yourself and you do have a reliable way to compare one batch of your lead to a previous batch.

That's just my thoughts on the topic. I want to be able to use other people's findings and vice versa.

Good point and one I didn't think of, I'll just order the same set you and the other guys are using off Amazon. I looked at them before and have them bookmarked, somewhere......

[GunFun]

i think they are about $3 cheaper at office depot. I left a link in the description to the video above.

[62chevy]

i think they are about $3 cheaper at office depot. I left a link in the description to the video above.


No they are 30 cents cheaper but if you have a store close by then you save the shipping, I don't.

http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/411268/Staedtler-Mars-Lumograph-Design-Pencil-Set/

[skykingjohn]

i agree think i will get the same brand to

[rjw1911]

Great information. I bought the set of Steadtler Mars Lumograph pencils today. $14 at Office Depot. A lot better than the $110 I had already decided to spend on an LBT tester. Take out the twenty bucks I gladly paid to become a Patron Team Member out of appreciation for the great information I am finding here, it leaves me almost enough to get the powder coat equipment at Harbor Freight! :grin::grin::grin:
Now, to flatten some pencil ends, and start the testing.

[trucker76]

Good stuff. While rearranging the garage my friend inadvertantly mixed up my carefully separated coww and pure lead ingots. I have thumbnails like boxcutters and can scratch them both. Got the staedtler set today at staples for $16. Now to go and sort my ingots.

[Bodean74]

It's hard to ask questions when all the answers are already in the threads. And even more of a pain to comment with the level of wisdom in this site. So I guess I will just continue enjoying the great post , as this one is thank you.

[bangerjim]

The reason I don't really advocate that is that while the hardnesses are theoretically consistent to any quality brand, the diameter of the graphite varies. This will mean my results don't translate as well to yours and vice versa. If we keep the official standard as the 'staedtler mars lumigraph' pencils then we still have individual pressure as a variable, but not the pencils. Keeping the pressure just below the level that would crumble the edge of the pencil is the best we can do for an easily describable uniform pressure.

If you don't want to share your findings, though just keep the same brand for yourself and you do have a reliable way to compare one batch of your lead to a previous batch.

That's just my thoughts on the topic. I want to be able to use other people's findings and vice versa.

Agree..........we can't EVEYTHING on the cheeeeep around here! Stick with the Mars pencils. They cost more but are uniform and act at a "standard" when using this seat-of-the-pants SWAG method. Just like the real Brinnell test uses a standard diameter ball, use a standard pencil lead set. And that little bit more is sure less than a REAL tester would cost you. That way, the data you get will be comparable to the charts and what others are getting.

banger

[.45Cole]

Update: I got a set (12) of Marco Raffine pencils: B, 2B, 3B, 4B, 5B, 6B, 7B, 8B, H, 2H, HB, F at a local art supply store. I think I was $8 some out the door. Try your local guy!

[Steve Marshall]

I've accumulated just over a ton of lead and will start casting soon. I have an LBT tester and find it to be quite accurate testing bullets from Missouri Bullet Company.
One of the ideas I saw here rings true. Carrying a set of pencils when scrounging. An idea I got when someone posted about the 4 hardness
levels, i.e., soft, medium, hard and very hard. Wouldn't it make sense to just use at most 4 pencils? Utilizing the charts we saw, find a pencil that's likely in the middle of a range and sorting your acquisitions into 4 basic groups. Is that oversimplifying?

[DougGuy]

It's not oversimplifying, but you can't "group" an alloy based on hardness, if that were easy to do, Brinell would only have 4 numbers when it comes to soft metals. You could scrape with a pencil and say it is harder or not harder than the pencil, but it still does not tell you zip about the actual hardness. Just use the specific pencil that cuts it because that's the way the test and the standards were designed to work.

[bangerjim]

II used to take my Cabine with me. Now I rely on my own metallurgy knowledge.

After messing with lead and alloys for a time, I can pretty much determine the relative hardness by just banging the piece against a steel bin.....something like your referring to with just the 4 pencils. That is all that is really needed.

Back in the shop, I can run my Cabine test and determine the exact hardness.

But.....BUT....what is more valuable than the hardness is the x-ray readout the yards give me when I buy the lead. And that test they do for free. Just ask them!

bangerjim

[Steve Marshall]

DougGuy, your response caused me to think a bit. Granted that the pencils will only give you a range. Granted there are more than 4 hardnesses for lead. So, what do you do with your accumulated lead? For the sake of discussion, let's assume your favorite bullet wants to be 12 Brinell. You have a bunch that is 11. Do you bring it to 12 or say, close enough. And how, since the pencil test tells you zip about hardness, do you determine the actual hardness prior to casting? Is it an ongoing process? Do you cast a few, let them settle down and then check the hardness? If so, what is your cutoff point of deviation?

None of my questions are smart-***. I've been reading on this site trying to get a handle. I have calluses where none should ever be. Who'd've thought there was so much to digest. I don't know what I had in my mind- certainly more than casting over a camp fire but certainly less than a metallurgist diploma.

[bangerjim]

DougGuy, your response caused me to think a bit. Granted that the pencils will only give you a range. Granted there are more than 4 hardnesses for lead. So, what do you do with your accumulated lead? For the sake of discussion, let's assume your favorite bullet wants to be 12 Brinell. You have a bunch that is 11. Do you bring it to 12 or say, close enough. And how, since the pencil test tells you zip about hardness, do you determine the actual hardness prior to casting? Is it an ongoing process? Do you cast a few, let them settle down and then check the hardness? If so, what is your cutoff point of deviation?

None of my questions are smart-***. I've been reading on this site trying to get a handle. I have calluses where none should ever be. Who'd've thought there was so much to digest. I don't know what I had in my mind- certainly more than casting over a camp fire but certainly less than a metallurgist diploma.

Reading is good.............too much can be counter productive, as many tend to overthink this very simple process.

Many people seem to get lost in the weeds on this hardness thing. It is not rocket science.

You do not (normally) shoot pure lead out of anything other than black powder ball rifles.

You do not (normally) shoot 22+Bhn out of most guns.

I say "normally", because there will always be somebody out there that just has to do it different!

So a rule I have always used is 9-12 for subsonic and 14-15 for sonic. I now (as thousands on here do) PC everything which pretty much eliminates the "hair-splitting" worry about hardness. The PC provide an excellent protective coating that eliminates leading and the grease smoke you get from grease type lubes. And allows you to shoot softer alloys.........stretching your money on expensive sweetening mixes.

Today BARREL FIT IS KING. Slug your guns. Proven my many avid shooters today. The "olde school philosophy" of hardness kinda went out the window with the modern thoughts/proof we see today.

So, get in the 10-12 ballpark for plinking and shoot 'em! PC them if you are worried about leading. GC anything sonic+ or rifle as long as your boolit is made for GC's.

If you cannot afford a Cabine or Lee tester, the pencils are a darned close result. Bhn is a very relative reading anyway and you will get different readings each time.......all within a range you then average out and call that the hardness for the alloy you are testing. It is sort of a SWAG test even with very expensive lab testing instruments, as the ranges and metals we deal in are so soft and constantly shift with time. With our little testers, we are in the sub basement of the Bhn ranges. The lab tester I have STARTS at 100 and goes up from there. Let's not even talk about the Rockewll hardness ranges. Even on the Mohs (~1.5) and Vickers (~1) scales, we are still in the basement.


Don't overthink it. Get out there and shoot some boolits!

bangerjim

[40-82 hiker]

Reading is good.............too much can be counter productive, as many tend to overthink this very simple process.

Many people seem to get lost in the weeds on this hardness thing. It is not rocket science.

You do not (normally) shoot pure lead out of anything other than black powder ball rifles.

You do not (normally) shoot 22+Bhn out of most guns.

I say "normally", because there will always be somebody out there that just has to do it different!

So a rule I have always used is 9-12 for subsonic and 14-15 for sonic. I now (as thousands on here do) PC everything which pretty much eliminates the "hair-splitting" worry about hardness. The PC provide an excellent protective coating that eliminates leading and the grease smoke you get from grease type lubes. And allows you to shoot softer alloys.........stretching your money on expensive sweetening mixes.

Today BARREL FIT IS KING. Slug your guns. Proven my many avid shooters today. The "olde school philosophy" of hardness kinda went out the window with the modern thoughts/proof we see today.

So, get in the 10-12 ballpark for plinking and shoot 'em! PC them if you are worried about leading. GC anything sonic+ or rifle as long as your boolit is made for GC's.

If you cannot afford a Cabine or Lee tester, the pencils are a darned close result. Bhn is a very relative reading anyway and you will get different readings each time.......all within a range you then average out and call that the hardness for the alloy you are testing. It is sort of a SWAG test even with very expensive lab testing instruments, as the ranges and metals we deal in are so soft and constantly shift with time. With our little testers, we are in the sub basement of the Bhn ranges. The lab tester I have STARTS at 100 and goes up from there. Let's not even talk about the Rockewll hardness ranges. Even on the Mohs (~1.5) and Vickers (~1) scales, we are still in the basement.


Don't overthink it. Get out there and shoot some boolits!

bangerjim

I like what bangerjim said! Boolit diameter based on barrel diamter... Think of the lead this way: normal target velocities for pistol? COWW + 2% tin straight, or 50%/50% with pure lead. BHN? Who cares, it has been proven by the gazillions of rounds. BP? Pure to SOWWs (5 to 8 BHN or so). Mold and shoot. Need to shoot BP cartridge rifles? How about 20:1 (lead:tin). It has a known BHN, but you don't need to know the BHN to cast and shoot it. Just trying to prove the point that if you follow known "recipes", you know the general BHN area you are in for your application. Have fun shooting the lead. Get the headaches and calluses later. Use known metals/alloys for your casting at the start. It's the unknown alloys that drive us nuts and give us calluses and headaches. I still do not use alloys unknown to me. Got enough headaches...

[Steve Marshall]

So my idea of carrying 4 pencils when scrounging isn't so farfetched? I've come across quite a bit of soft lead and more than that of hard. Once I've decided where all my lead is relative to the pencil test, I could blend to make, say 12 BHN? or 10 to 14 and the net result would be good to go for most situations, no? My problem is that I've acquired more than a bit with no idea as to it's hardness. I can't just rap it and tell by the sound. The thumbnail will only get you to about 10? or so. Therefore, the pencils. I have an LBT but that will only tell me after I cast. And powder coating is far, far down the road for me. For my newbie starts, lube will be 45/45/10. And I dassn't argue/disagree with experts, so will muddle down the road with some knowledge and, hopefully, some common sense. Positive to make a few mistakes, but I'll wager every caster did too.

[bangerjim]

PC is cheaper than any grease! And NO LEADING! And is much more forgiving on Bhn than grease.

To get started in PC, all you need is some red HF powder ($3.99 on sale), an old coolwhip bowl, HF long nose pliers, non-stick Al foil, and a toster oven. Not that FAR down the road money-wise!!!!!!!


The above items are bare minimum and will yield nominal PC'd boolits. Once you get the hang of it, you will want better equipment.

Your pencils will get you in the ballpark if you cannot judge hardness on your own. Take them with!

Good luck!

banger

[DougGuy]

Update: I got a set (12) of Marco Raffine pencils: B, 2B, 3B, 4B, 5B, 6B, 7B, 8B, H, 2H, HB, F at a local art supply store. I think I was $8 some out the door. Try your local guy!

Decent price but totally counterpoint to the topic of this thread and the subject to having a uniform reference standard pencil set. The Mars Staedtler pencils are adopted as that reference standard because a guy in Kokomo IN can buy a set in Staples, use them for a tester, and another guy in London could buy a set and have the same reference as the guy in Kokomo.

Just because someone makes and sells a set of pencils that is numbered doesn't mean those numbers (and grades) will match the Mars Staedtler letter for letter. We ALL know how out the window QC is in China and how widely varied the consistency of their mass produced goods can be. The whole point of this testing lead with pencils is so that people around the world can have the same exact reference point using the Mars Staedtler pencils, which removes the variable. Using a different manufacturer's pencils puts the variable right back in there.

You cannot establish a standard by using the same 2b pencil from 30 manufacturers or even 3 manufacturers because chances are 90% of the time, they won't match. The $3 you save by using Taiwan Freddie's cheaper pencils invite more headaches than the money you saved is worth.


So my idea of carrying 4 pencils when scrounging isn't so farfetched?

If you carry the 4 pencils that are in the mean norm of your samples you don't need the whole set. If you skip numbers and the sample falls between two numbers that are 4 grades apart, what is the hardness of your sample? You can't say! You would need the grades between the ones you tested with to correctly answer that question, and without those grades it would be a close guess. That was my point about over simplifying things.

[bangerjim]

Agree. Staedtler brand is the ONLY one to buy, and they do cost from $12-16. Let's not go all cheapash here!!!! Just spend the money. After all, you are squealing out of buying a $160 Cabine tester!

Do not use any thing but the recommended brand because they are repeatable time and time again. Staedtler pencils, so I have been told, have been used by the paint industry for many decades as the field test for paint hardness, so they are made uniformly. Not like brand XYZ you buy on the cheeeeeeep from "your guy" or WalMArt or a swap meet.

bangerjim

[Steve Marshall]

Agreed, I won't know the hardness of the scrounged lead. And until I cast, I won't know the hardness of the bullet. And once I do know, then what? Do I strive to blend and arrive at 10.873 BHN? Or, more likely, I'll end up with , say, 9BHN- 12 BHN. From my, admittedly, limited comprehension, that will probably be close enough for government work.
As to "other" pencils? My gut says, since we really don't know what our alloy is and since I can vary the hardness of my bullets via air-hardening, water quenching and heat treating, the hardness of the pencil probably doesn't matter too much, as long as they are somewhat linear like the Staedtlers, as it is only a tool for the individual caster to make comparative readings.
Something further I would like to know, is blending different hardnesses to arrive at another hardness, were I to combine some 5ish BNH to some 15ish BNH, do I arrive at 10ish BNH? In other words is it a linear process and if I add 1 hardness to another can I divide by two to get a resultant hardness or is there some kind of formula to derive the result?
Thanks

[JWFilips]

Well, you know there is always some guys "bucking" the system! For instance Just "How many (Poor) variation" of "Ben's Red" etc have we seen here. I can go on . You guys came here to learn, well, I don't see much of you learning here recently....just those doing it the way they want to....In that case you all really don't need this forum do you..... Maybe "YouTube will serve you better!"
Well this is ........Just A Big Observational Rant! (Hey maybe we should anagram that "JABOR":-?)

[Lee]

Buy the lead. Buy it now. When you think you have enough, buy twice as much more. Then worry about hardness. I don't care if you bang it on the side of your head. Eventually you grow to recognize "pure" lead from the rest. But when the fruits and nuts ban it, that's when you will wish you had it.

[bangerjim]

Agreed, I won't know the hardness of the scrounged lead. And until I cast, I won't know the hardness of the bullet. And once I do know, then what? Do I strive to blend and arrive at 10.873 BHN? Or, more likely, I'll end up with , say, 9BHN- 12 BHN. From my, admittedly, limited comprehension, that will probably be close enough for government work.
As to "other" pencils? My gut says, since we really don't know what our alloy is and since I can vary the hardness of my bullets via air-hardening, water quenching and heat treating, the hardness of the pencil probably doesn't matter too much, as long as they are somewhat linear like the Staedtlers, as it is only a tool for the individual caster to make comparative readings.
Something further I would like to know, is blending different hardnesses to arrive at another hardness, were I to combine some 5ish BNH to some 15ish BNH, do I arrive at 10ish BNH? In other words is it a linear process and if I add 1 hardness to another can I divide by two to get a resultant hardness or is there some kind of formula to derive the result?
Thanks

Do you have the alloy cal sheet from on here? It takes all the guess work out. Search for it. Put your alloys in and it tells you approx what your hardness is. From my many tests, it is relatively close. But then, who really cares if it is 10 or 11 or 12!

Just acquire any/all lead you can. Worry about the hardness later! You can alway dope it. And do not get lost in the weeds.

banger

[Steve Marshall]

I don't know what my alloys are. What I do know is that I have 900 pounds that when my neighbor cast 5 bullets from, in an hour they tested 71/2 to 8 on an LBT hardness gage. I have about 1100 pounds without a clue as to their hardness, hence, and for future acquisitions, the pencils.

[Steve Marshall]

Well I searched the alloy calculation charts. There are many pages of them. MANY PAGES. Some of you will find this hard to believe, but I am Fred Flintstone worthy on a computer, so couldn't open any of the calculators that offered such. What I did find in the comments were many ways of skinning cats, much to my fear. Why the fear you might ask? Well apparently, I, as a newb, am trying to circumvent centuries worth of acquired knowledge in my haste to just start casting. Never mind the countless hours spent reading. I am somehow to accommodate divergent viewpoints into some sort of controlled atmosphere, never ask a question that might apparently challenge my betters and then just cast in confidence.
On the one hand we get "JABOR" and the very next post we get "Buy the lead. Buy it now.", a philosophy I can comprehend as I have accumulated just over one ton and have yet to cast my first bullet, (my neighbor cast my samples).
As to the pencils, my plan, until I'm told how ineffective, will be to test every bullet I can lay my hands on (with the LBT tester) and cross reference the pencils.

[bangerjim]

I don't know what my alloys are. What I do know is that I have 900 pounds that when my neighbor cast 5 bullets from, in an hour they tested 71/2 to 8 on an LBT hardness gage. I have about 1100 pounds without a clue as to their hardness, hence, and for future acquisitions, the pencils.

Your best bet is to cast an ingot of each of your unknowns and take it to a local scrap yard for an xray read on the make-up. They may do it for free if you buy some stuff. Then you will know and can figure the hardness with the spreadsheet.

Or buddy up with someone on here that can test and send them the ingots. My yards do the test for free with I buy anything, so I ALWAYS have a printout of exactly what I get.

You are a PERFECT candidate for powder coating! PC'ing eliminates the worry about hardness as the PC offers protection and eliminates leading with no lubing. I use ~10-12 for most all pistols and subsonic and 14 or so for rifles.

Fit is king today, not so much hardness.

bangerjim

[DougGuy]

This has been talked about on here I think and if this chart has been posted, excuse the dupe, it's a guide to comparing pencils to BHN that I thought was handy as it gets into the straight Pb+Sn mixes. What it doesn't specify is 50/50 which is ww to Pb, they use range scrap to compare which I guess is closer to pure lead than ww but like everything else, there's the variables. Next trip to the range might yield scrap closer to ww than Pb.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/BHN-PencilHardnessChart_zps36de46c4.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/BHN-PencilHardnessChart_zps36de46c4.jpg.html)

[bangerjim]

Well I searched the alloy calculation charts. There are many pages of them. MANY PAGES. Some of you will find this hard to believe, but I am Fred Flintstone worthy on a computer, so couldn't open any of the calculators that offered such. What I did find in the comments were many ways of skinning cats, much to my fear. Why the fear you might ask? Well apparently, I, as a newb, am trying to circumvent centuries worth of acquired knowledge in my haste to just start casting. Never mind the countless hours spent reading. I am somehow to accommodate divergent viewpoints into some sort of controlled atmosphere, never ask a question that might apparently challenge my betters and then just cast in confidence.
On the one hand we get "JABOR" and the very next post we get "Buy the lead. Buy it now.", a philosophy I can comprehend as I have accumulated just over one ton and have yet to cast my first bullet, (my neighbor cast my samples).
As to the pencils, my plan, until I'm told how ineffective, will be to test every bullet I can lay my hands on (with the LBT tester) and cross reference the pencils.

I do not understand you comment about "all the sheets" of calculators.

I did a search right (the white box at the top right) and the 1st hit was the calc:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?105952-Lead-alloy-calculators

Dowload the Excel spreadsheet listed (zip file) and plug in your values! Simple as that.

bangerjim

[Steve Marshall]

Not only am I deficient with computers, I have no clue as to the composition of my lead/alloys. So the charts won't help me. How about this: say I have a pound of pure lead say 5BHN and a pound of 12BHN. If I blend them, will I theoretically end up with 2 pounds of 8.5BHN?
(5+12 divided by 2= 8.5)

[bangerjim]

Not only am I deficient with computers, I have no clue as to the composition of my lead/alloys. So the charts won't help me. How about this: say I have a pound of pure lead say 5BHN and a pound of 12BHN. If I blend them, will I theoretically end up with 2 pounds of 8.5BHN?
(5+12 divided by 2= 8.5)

My answer is NO. I have never researched mixing different hardnesses. I do it by % content of alloy.

I just put 1# of 5 and 1# of 12 in the spreadsheet sheet and got 10.1 as an answer. That is pure Pb and COWW's. But the 12 can be reached by several different additives, so it is a guesstimate. If you are using COWW's then 10.1 should be relatively close.

As you can see.............it is NOT linear!!!!!!! So you really DO need to use the spreadsheet!!!

The link I provided is NOT just a set of static charts, but a live Excel spreadsheet that gives you the answers if you put the data in. You can adjust the inputs to arrive at what you need. Very valuable!!!!!! You need Microsoft Excel ( or one of those cheepo open architecture things) to run it.

I know the exact % content of all the lead and alloy stock I have.

Good luck!

bangerjim

[Blublister]

I have been reading about building a hardness tester for some time and never got around to building it. Im glad I didn't get to it since now I only have to sharpen some pencils. This is the new sliced bread. Great info!!! Thanks

[meshugunner]

Agree. Staedtler brand is the ONLY one to buy, and they do cost from $12-16. Let's not go all cheapash here!!!! Just spend the money. After all, you are squealing out of buying a $160 Cabine tester!

Do not use any thing but the recommended brand because they are repeatable time and time again. Staedtler pencils, so I have been told, have been used by the paint industry for many decades as the field test for paint hardness, so they are made uniformly. Not like brand XYZ you buy on the cheeeeeeep from "your guy" or WalMArt or a swap meet.

bangerjim

I draw with pencil and have complete sets of about 20 different artist's brands. There are *NO* standards, one mfr's HB might be another's B etc. Also, with cheaper brands there can be uneven steps in hardness and inconsistency between batches. I completely agree with banger - use Mars Lumograph pencils. They are high quality, consistent and fairly easy to find. Also you will be able to compare your results with those of other people. Sheesh we are talking about a few dollars difference in price for something that you want reliable and consistent.

[mike 30-06]

Lee makes a good and cheep lead hardness tester kit. Chapter 10 in lee's modern reloading second edition describes how lead hardness can be matched with chamber pressure to produce most accurate and non barrel leading loads. The same manual gives 1 grain reduction factor for both projected speed at muzzle and pressure. Both can be calculated with limited rifle cartridges and powders. No 1 grain factors are provided for pistol.

Mike

[Traffer]

I've been reading all the various posts about methods and devices for testing alloy hardness. One post by Molly recommended using pencils of varying hardness to compare against the surface hardness of bullets and ingots. This is widely used in labs to test hardness of metal coatings by scratching the surface in a particular way to see if the pencil digs into the surface or glides over it.

After some searching, I found that Office Depot, a large chain of stationary stores here in the US, carries just what I needed - the Staedtler Mars Lumograph set of pencils for artists. Cost is $10 for the set of 12 wooden pencils in a flat metal case, already sharpened, ranging from 6B to 4H.

Molly said 6B pencils are same hardness as pure lead and H equal to linotype. Can anyone provide an approximate BHN number for the other pencils in between? These are 6B, 5B, 4B, 3B, 2B, B, HB, F, and H. The set continues on up to 2H, 3H and 4H, but if H is lino, I won't be using alloys any harder than that. BTW, I tried out the pencils on the base of a fresh bullet cast from what I believe to be Lyman no 2. F scratched the surface, but HB just left a trail of graphite on the shiny surface, as predicted.

I really like this method. Its quick, cheap and repeatable. No spring loaded devices, no ball bearings, no measuring indents with a digital caliper. Just apply the pencil and see immediately if it scratches or writes. You assistance in converting the pencil numbers to BHN is appreciated. thx - CW
This is what I have for hardness:


Hardness Reference Pencil BHN Common Alloys
7B 4 pure & sheet lead
6B 5 lead wire
5B 7-8 40:1 Golden Bullet
4B 9 25:1
3B 10 20:1 WW, My Casts
2B 11-12 Range Scrap
B 13
HB 14-15 Lyman #2, 1:1 Linotype
F 16-18 Commercial cast bullets
H 20-22 linotype/WW, linotype
2H 26-28 Monotype, Quench WW

[rhouser]

You know, every now and then a topic comes back up and it is a good thing.

Molly's threads on pencil testing led me to buy a set of Staedtler pencils some years back and I have been using them ever since.

Today, I pulled a bag of about 500 .32 cal 94 gr PB commercial bullets with absolutely no markings what so ever on the bag and no memory of when I bought them. I am loading them into a 32 Mag for use in my rifle. I pulled out my pencils and polished one with a B but cut it with HB and an F. I now know that I can jump the velocity's into the 1000 FPS range without too much leading. I have some cowboy action bullets in 32 that can get messy if I get into the high 800's

My point is that Molly gave me a useful tool that I use when I am not sure of a group of "muffins" hardness (cause at 65 I sometimes forget). I marked them 6 or 8 years ago when I alloyed them for my use, but, sometimes the markings wear off etc. I use the pencil testing to evaluate my current starting points etc.

Thank You Molly if you are still out there.

v/r rch

[6622729]

Greatest idea yet! I hate my Lee hardness tester. The pencils are so easy to use!!! You can try to use the pencils empirically (that means actually try to put a hardness number to the test by the chart created in this thread) or at an absolute minimum have a great super fast way of comparing two samples to one another.

I tested some COWW I have in ingot form against some ingots I received that were claimed to be a little harder than COWW. They actually turned out to be significantly softer. They didn't ring like COWW and the pencils quickly confirmed they were closer to 9 or 10 Brinell to the COWW's 12 Brinell. With that information in hand I adjusted my typical mix to account for the 10 Brinell base stock instead of COWW and successfully created an alloy that tests the same as the finished product I was making with COWW base stock.

[Traffer]

Here is some info that I have gleaned with my own testing added. Once you get used to this it works plenty well enough:

Hold the pencil at a 45 degree angle with the surface you are testing, and push down along the length of the pencil, as if you are trying to shove a knife point into the surface. If you try to push the pencil across the surface as if you are writting on in, you will get a much 'softer' result, because the edge won't be cutting into the surface, it will just be rubbing across the surface.

[HandsOff]

Does anyone know what the higher "H" pencils compare to?
I have some unknown load alloy that tests harder than 4H. Unfortunately, I don't have pencils harder than that to find how hard it really is.

For anyone who's interested, I recently found this page that tells how to make a low cost hardness tester.
Scroll down to the section named "Simple low-cost hardness tester":
http://www.texas-mac.com/Evaluations_and_Recommendations_for_Lead-Alloy_Hardness_Testers.html

[Shooter6br]

Used artists set for years Cheap and easy

[6622729]

You're getting most likely into a copper lead alloy that is way outside what we would use for casting. Heck 2H is Brinell 26-28 which is in Monotype territory. 4H is out of sight! I don't think you're going to ID the content with pencils. You'll have to get it shot if you really want to know what's in it. Otherwise, dilute a small sample batch with soft lead down into a hardness that is usable and see how it shoots.

[Traffer]

Here are some practical instructions on hardness testing with pencils with pictures:
174723 This is a properly sharpened pencil. 90 Degrees polished with some 1000 grit sandpaper.
174724This is the base of a 38 cal slug retrieved from range berm. It is filed down. (note the direction of file marks.) When doing the pencil test go in the direction of the file marks.
.174725Push the pencil in the direction that the pencil is pointing. Try to plow a slight groove in the lead. This is the proper angle to use. The amount of force to use will be apparent when you try it. If it cuts in and gouges, the pencil is harder than the alloy. If the pencil slides and the edge crumbles, the alloy is harder than the pencil.
174726 This is the "furrow" left by the pencil cutting into the lead. If the lead was harder than the pencil it would not leave this mark. (the same 38 cal slug as the second picture) Notice I went in the same direction as the file marks. If you go against the grain, you can get a false result.
174727 Another picture of the pencil cutting the furrows. This is a 38 wad cutter from range berm filed the long way.
You just have to guess the pencil and try to scratch with it. If it cuts in, go to a softer pencil. Repeat until the pencil is too soft to cut the lead. That is the pencil you use for reference. If the first pencil is softer than the lead reverse the process. Go harder until you get to the correct one.
The pencils are from soft to hard High B's are softest to High H's are the hardest. in the mid range it goes 3B, 2B, B, HB, F, H, 2H, 3H, etc.
Here are corresponding harnesses to the Brinell Scale (BHN= Brinell Hardness Number). These numbers are approximate.

Pencil Hardness Reference:
Pencil BHN Common Alloys

7B 4 Pure and Sheet Lead
6B 5 Lead Wire
5B 7-8 40:1 lead/tin, Most 22rf
4B 9 25:1 lead/tin
3B 10 20:1 lead/tin
2B 11-12 wheel weights (WW)
B 13
HB 14-15 Lyman #2 alloy, 1:1 linotype/lead
F 16-18 commercial cast bullets
H 20-22 1:1 linotype/WW, linotype
2H 26-28 Quenched WW, monotype

The set of Pencils can be obtained from Office supply stores like Staples, Office Max, from artist supply stores and from eBay. A set can range from $30 to $5. Mostly depending on the stores mark up. I bought a set of 12 Staedtler Mars Lumograph for about $15. I ended up having to buy 2 extra pencils because the set did not contain a 6B or an F. Make sure that what ever set you buy has ALL of the midrange pencils. (6B, 5B, 4B, 3B, 2B, B, HB, F, H, 2H, 3H) Or you can buy whatever one is missing separately. I just bought another set of 12 Graded Artist pencils. Got them off eBay from the UK. The set was missing HB and is noticeably cheaper but works JUST AS WELL. Price delivered to US was $5.14 US.

[HandsOff]

You're getting most likely into a copper lead alloy that is way outside what we would use for casting. Heck 2H is Brinell 26-28 which is in Monotype territory. 4H is out of sight! I don't think you're going to ID the content with pencils. You'll have to get it shot if you really want to know what's in it. Otherwise, dilute a small sample batch with soft lead down into a hardness that is usable and see how it shoots.That's what I'll end up doing since I only have ~5 lbs of it, and have no idea what it's composed of (probably throw it in a mix for buckshot). I'm still be curious what it's BHN is though. The 4H dents a groove into the surface, but doesn't actually gouge.

@ Traffer
Thanks, that's one of the most informative post I've come across on pencil prep and use.
I've got the Staedtler Mars Lumograph set; 6B-4H.

[Traffer]

Let us know what you find out. I am curious also.

[Traffer]

I was just testing some of the softest lead I have run into. My Staedtler Mars Lumigraph #6B pencil bounced off of it as it it were harder than 7Bhn or 8Bhn. I didn't believe that. My guess was that it was dead soft or 5bhn. So I went past the softness of the 6B pencil to a 7B pencil (which is supposed to be the next SOFTER in the progression. The 7B scratched the lead no problem. Then I tried the 8B pencil. THAT scratched it no problem. As I suspected this was dead soft pure lead at 5bhn. I went to my other set of pencils by HUE purchased from the UK. That 6B was of the proper hardness. It scratched the lead easily. So, bottom line I bought a set of supposedly the best pencils there are that has a pencil stamped 6B that is actuality softer than 8B. Maybe 9B? Have any of you who use pencils run into this problem? Or if you are planning on using pencils maybe make sure that they indeed do follow the progression and you don't have a oddball hard one in there.

[benellinut]

I was just testing some of the softest lead I have run into. My Staedtler Mars Lumigraph #6B pencil bounced off of it as it it were harder than 7Bhn or 8Bhn. I didn't believe that. My guess was that it was dead soft or 5bhn. So I went past the softness of the 6B pencil to a 7B pencil (which is supposed to be the next SOFTER in the progression. The 7B scratched the lead no problem. Then I tried the 8B pencil. THAT scratched it no problem. As I suspected this was dead soft pure lead at 5bhn. I went to my other set of pencils by HUE purchased from the UK. That 6B was of the proper hardness. It scratched the lead easily. So, bottom line I bought a set of supposedly the best pencils there are that has a pencil stamped 6B that is actuality softer than 8B. Maybe 9B? Have any of you who use pencils run into this problem? Or if you are planning on using pencils maybe make sure that they indeed do follow the progression and you don't have a oddball hard one in there.

Interesting, haven't heard of this from others and haven't seen it with the set I have. Wonder if a pencil or a lead fell out of a bin, got pick up and put in the wrong one at the factory, strange things can happen. Have you tried drawing with them on paper, depending what end of the scale you start from, you should be able to notice they leave progressively lighter or darker lines. For giggles, if you want to try it, sharpen that pencil back a ways, at least beyond the exposed lead and try it again.

BTW, I sharpen/sand the point on mine so it looks like a hot dog cut on a bias, I push the slanted point into the lead. Don't know if that would matter to your results but I just thought of it. Looks something like this


http://18165-presscdn-0-1.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/tip.jpg

[Traffer]

Interesting. My pencils are different. They are regular wooden pencils with lead in the middle. Have to sharpen the wood off to use them. Yours looks like a better more modern type. I did test the offending pencil on paper. It had a different texture than the one below it and the one above it. More gritty or scratchy. But the darkness of the mark it left was indeed in between the one above it and the one below it. Maybe they used a different binder making it or something. Oh well. I posted a pic earlier of my pencils if you scroll back a ways you can see what they look like and how I sharpen them. Just straight across on a 90 degree angle. That gives me a sharp edge to plow with. The shape of your pencil looks like you have found the ideal way to sharpen that kind. Good work.

[benellinut]

Interesting. My pencils are different. They are regular wooden pencils with lead in the middle. Have to sharpen the wood off to use them. Yours looks like a better more modern type. I did test the offending pencil on paper. It had a different texture than the one below it and the one above it. More gritty or scratchy. But the darkness of the mark it left was indeed in between the one above it and the one below it. Maybe they used a different binder making it or something. Oh well. I posted a pic earlier of my pencils if you scroll back a ways you can see what they look like and how I sharpen them. Just straight across on a 90 degree angle. That gives me a sharp edge to plow with. The shape of your pencil looks like you have found the ideal way to sharpen that kind. Good work.

No, I have the same pencils as you. That's just a pic of another kind I grabbed off the web to show how the point looks after I shape it. I should have made that clear, sorry about the confusion. I don't know if the way I shape them is right or wrong or if it makes much difference, I think the key is constancy on how you test from one batch to another. I do plow that edge, to me it's like using a wood chisel and why "I" do it that way.

[Traffer]

Yes, you can pretty much tell by the way it feels if it is working correctly. I put the pics up to show people who might want to try it but have not yet.

[reed1911]

We use Blick.com for most of our artist needs, they are INEXPENSIVE on everything. Free shipping around 50-60 dollar order. The pencils they have are in three sets, hard ranges from B to 9H, Medium from 6B-4H, soft from 9B to H cost is $9.08 a set of 12. Link for those is below:
http://www.dickblick.com/products/derwent-graphic-pencils/?clickTracking=true&wmcp=pla&wmcid=items&wmckw=20311-2022&gclid=CLOI7p6q_c8CFQtufgodSPcIFg

On another note: For those of us who are engineering and/or drafting and/or electronic guys (or those that write very small), they also sell VERY small tip pens for marking on schematics and engineering documents and archiving docs. They have down to 005 size which is 0.2mm, they cost 2-3 dollars and are very well made. To put that size in perspective a regular medium ball point pen is 1.0mm and a fine is 0.7mm. It used to be a chore for me to find 0.5mm pens. With a 005 size 0.2mm I can write 6 lines in the space of a college rule paper evenly spaced, so they are REALLY little. Love 'em brand is Sakura link below:
http://www.dickblick.com/products/sakura-pigma-micron-pen/

[adam_mac84]

I have read *most* of the pages here... but didn't see anyone commenting on when they test their alloys. Immediately after ingot/casting? After age hardening? 1 week? 2 weeks?

[6622729]

All of the above. It depends on the information you are looking for. If you are trying to alloy a pot of metal you might test the components you are puting in the pot. You might test the alloy right after casting. You might test at the time of shooting to diagnose an issue with a load.



I have read *most* of the pages here... but didn't see anyone commenting on when they test their alloys. Immediately after ingot/casting? After age hardening? 1 week? 2 weeks?

[Dumasron]

Don't overlook the fact that alloys closer to pure lead will make heavier bullets from the same mould. My BACO snover mould (40 cal) Makes a 405gr bullet using 25:1 alloy and a 390gr bullet using Lyman #2 alloy.

[Grmps]

I also hated my Lee hardness test until... I got some scrap wood and made this simple holder. Quick and dirty BUT it really helps
http://i.imgur.com/BfhYEvJ.jpg?1 (https://imgur.com/BfhYEvJ)

http://i.imgur.com/Fksjtza.jpg?1 (https://imgur.com/Fksjtza)

http://i.imgur.com/njtENE8.jpg?1 (https://imgur.com/njtENE8)

[Aikia]

I've tried using this pencil test and got some interesting results. I tested some ingots I cast from clip on wheel weights and some I cast from the stick on type. I expected to get readings similar to others with the tape weights being softer but this was not so. Both tested at 14 to 15 BHN. I tried various angles and pressures and always it was the HB pencil that made the scratch/cut. I also tested boolits I cast with each, both bare and powder coated with the same results. Is it me?

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I just tried this. Used a sanding block to make a nice square tip on an HB pencil. Tried it on the base of some boolits that should be 11-12 bhn. Holding the pencil at about a 40 deg. angle I could feel it plow into the lead. Then I tried it on some boolits I made too hard with lino and it skimmed right across the base.

For my puposes a 2B and an HB would tell me enough.

[sniper]

WOW! This thread has LEGS! fro 2010 to 2018! very interesting and valuable information, which gives us weekend casting Ninjas an idea of what we are shooting in our guns. Thank you, MOLLY, and several others who have cleared up couple of cloudy points. I bet those pencils will not be the sawbuck they once were, tho.:wink:

[Grmps]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355056-Easier-pencil-lead-hardness-testing

[DK'dUranium]

Don't overlook the fact that alloys closer to pure lead will make heavier bullets from the same mould. My BACO snover mould (40 cal) Makes a 405gr bullet using 25:1 alloy and a 390gr bullet using Lyman #2 alloy.
Aha! A perfect spot for this inquiry: What can be deduced as to an alloy's composition and its BHN if your two data points are your bullets advertised #2 alloy weight, and then the actual weight with your own mix? As a test of my pencil scratching prowess I found some bars that I thought were 14 BHN, close to Lyman #2. In actuality my bullets weighed heavier, about 105% of #2. Other than the obvious fact that my alloy has more Pb as a percentage than a #2 mix, is there an equation or good rule of thumb to analyze one's own mix from those two points of data?

[T_McD]

Just wanted to say thanks to all who contributed. Now I can have an idea of hardness without extra equipment

[JM7.7x58]

I live in the Pacific North West, halibut and salmon gear is pretty common at garage sales around here. My first pot a lead was a real mystery, about 40 pounds of who knows what fishing lead. I cast about five hundred 148gr 358 Lee TL boolits. I water quenched them. Mistake number one!!! After the fact I read that for .38 Special they should be softer. Now I'm in a pickle. How do I hardness test? Then I found this thread, then I ordered some pencils.

Here is what I know today. F cuts / Hb don't. So my boolits are somewhere around 15 Bhn.
I'm going to try some of these faster in .357, with them being hard as they are.
I'm also going to soften some in the 5 dollar toaster oven I picked up just for this job. Load these soft ones at mild target velocity.
And lastly I will load some of the harder water quenched ones at hotter +P .38 velocity.
My goal is no leading. Finger crossed.

[Boolseye]

Those pencils are all I need to test for hardness. I leave a clear spot on the top of my melt when I’m done casting, then check it later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Conditor22]

I have never found the exact hardness to be critical, I test just to get close. Some people just drop a ingot on concrete and go by the sound the "thud" makes.

It's been a looooooong time since I went to school and I never got into math with letters :).

Let us know how it works out. [Pictures are always appreciated]

Many of us on CB use IMGUR http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?375622-Posting-Pictures-using-IMGUR

[chasw]

Don't give up, TS. Your Alekseevskii-Tate formula will be very useful determining the amount of erosion a continuous stream of pure lead boolits traveling at 1000 fps cause upon striking a hardened steel plate. Of course you'll need to first test the boolits with the pencils to ensure they are pure lead. Science is mankind's brother. - CW

[Doubles Shooter]

This post is great! I'm just getting back into casting after better than 45 tears away. I've acquired a bunch of different ingots over the years, but had no idea of the hardness. Now I can get close enough for me. For an investment of a whopping $0.97 for a basic 6 pencil set at Walmart..

[Bantou]

I was wondering how pins would work for smelting. Roughly how much lead do you get off of them? We are putting up pins with plastic threads now but we still take down a bunch of the lead ones.

[ACC]

Thanks, Molly and Rob. This is useful information. As I begin to gather data from using my new pencil set on samples from my store of boolit alloys, I am beginning to map out a scale of sorts - call it the Staedtler Scale, after the makers of these fine artist's pencils. So long as one sticks to that widely available brand of pencils and uses the correct technique, results will be similar. Molly observed spacing of about 1-3/4 BHN between some of the grades, perhaps at the softer end of the scale. Here's what I've gathered so far:

6B = Pure lead, about 5 BHN
5B
4B
3B = 1in20 tin/lead alloy, age softened, about 10 BHN
2B
B
HB = Lyman no 2 alloy, about 15 BHN
H = Linotype, supposedly about 22 BHN, but that seems high
2H
3H
4H

I offer this cheap but effective method of testing relative hardness, not particularly to convert pencil numbers to Brinell numbers, but rather as an alternate scale for boolit casters, with reference points to known alloys. If I pick up some scrap lead, or buy alloy from a smelter, I can quickly find out where it lies, relative to those other alloys. For example, my small stock of LaserCast brand commercial lead projectiles tested HB. I never had any luck with them, I've been saving them for the furnace, now I know approximately where they fit in as feedstock.

The bullets I cast from Lyman no 2 do very well in my rifles, with no leading at all. But methinks that alloy is too hard to maintain a tight seal in my revolver loads. So I'll try some of the 1in20 alloy, maybe with some Lino mixed in to boost it up into the 2B range. - CW

OK, what is a normal No. 2 pencil?

[Gone_rabid]

Wal-Mart sells a set of 12 sketching pencils under the name daler Rowney for $5.99 Incase someone is looking for cheap ones.

[AndyC]

Now I just bought a set of artists' pencils from Amazon to test my stuff - cool wizardry on this forum, thanks!

[NavyGuns45]

If all I want to do is separate my ingots into my two primary categories (clip-on WW versus stick-on), I should go at it with a 5B pencil? Reading this thread, ACCOWW could be Brinell 9-12 so if 5B scratches it, it's probably not ACCOWW. Does this sound reasonable?

[Conditor22]

IF that's all you have you can just drop them on concrete, the COWW will make a discernably higher ringing sound when the hit.

Yes, scrape/clean a small spot on the surface with a chisel or ? and test with a 5B pencil. IF the 5b doesn't scratch it then it's more than 8 bhn

COWW normally drops around 12 BHN

[chiefsfan]

I realize that this is an old thread, but to add one point that I did not see mentioned. What I read/saw was to use the pencils, sand the point off to a flat blunt end, then use the edge to test the material be it lead, ww, etc.

[bangerjim]

Now I just bought a set of artists' pencils from Amazon to test my stuff - cool wizardry on this forum, thanks!

Industry has been using the poor-man's pencil test in the coating and painting industry for MANY years. Not new....just a re-application of an old "seat-o-you-pants" technology.

[asmusg]

I know this is an old tread but hopefully someone still look at it. I have cast my first lead ingots and got a set of pencils to test the hardness but the first pencil that is able to scratch the lead would be a 4H. I cant find how hard that lead is anywhere. Does the Scale go past 2H and how could I get this lead softer than 4H?

[oley55]

I know this is an old tread but hopefully someone still look at it. I have cast my first lead ingots and got a set of pencils to test the hardness but the first pencil that is able to scratch the lead would be a 4H. I cant find how hard that lead is anywhere. Does the Scale go past 2H and how could I get this lead softer than 4H?

I don't know where to find the bhn conversion for 4H, but gotta think you are in the 32-34 BHN range. Foundry lead comes in at 34 BHN I think. Just playing with this calculator 10:1 (10 soft to 1 foundry) will give you an 11 BHN. Just an idea of how much soft lead it will take.

In this calculator I chose the sick-on WW as being closest to pure/soft lead. Just a matter of playing with the ratios to get to your target BHN. But it's a wag not knowing what your lead source was/is.
https://www.weatherby.dk/bhn.htm

edit: did you file off a bit of surface to find a flat smooth spot for your pencil? That will eliminate any odd material that may be have migrated to the surface if your smelt temps were too high.

[Conditor22]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?378866-Lead-hardness-pencil-testing-trick

[Cosmic_Charlie]

It does work. And with the Lee tester being out of stock everywhere it's a good choice.

[MaLar]

I don't know if this helps. I've been collecting info on lead hardness for some time.

Staedtler Hardness Chart:
8B Sheet lead
7B
6B Lead wire 5 BHN
5B 40/1 lead / tin
4B
3B 1/20 tin/lead 10 BHN
3B Clip-on WW
2B Range scrap
B 20/1 Lead / tin
B Quenched range scrap
B Air cooled WW
B WW+2% tin
HB Lyman #2 15 Bhn
F Lyman #2
F Commercial cast
H 50/50 Lino /WW
H Linotype 20 Bhn
2H Quenched WW
2H Monotype
3H Foundry Hardness about 30 BHN
4H

Rough BHN to Staedtler Hardness Conversion Chart:
6B = Pure lead, about 5 BHN
5B
4B
3B = 1in20 tin/lead alloy, age softened, about 10 BHN
2B
B
HB = Lyman no 2 alloy, about 15 BHN
H = Linotype, supposedly about 22 BHN, but that seems high
2H
3H
4H
8B Sheet Lead
7B
6B ~ 5 BHN Pure Lead (Lead wire)
5B 40/1 (Plumbers Lead)
4B 25/1
3B ~10 BHN 20/1 ACWW
2B 20/1 ACRS
B ~12 BHN 20/1 ACWW (ACWW+2% Tin) WDRS
HB ~15 BHN (Lyman #2) (#2 Pencil)
F (Lyman #2) (ACWW+2% Tin) WDWW
H ~20 BHN Lino 50/50
2H Monotype (WDWW)
3H Foundry Hardness about 30 BHN

[asmusg]

Thanks for the advice I have seen that chart before just not one that went higher than 2H. All of my lead was random chunks I have acquired so its hard to tell where it came from. I just ordered a thermometer so will try filing the ingot because if I had to guess my temps were too hot. Thanks for all the advice.

[asmusg]

So I would need roughly 10 pounds of soft lead to offset 1 pound of this lead if its around 34 BHN?

[MaLar]

I have a couple hundred pounds of Foundry type. I mix 1 pound of foundry to 12 pounds of lead for soft boolits.
And 2 pound to 12 lead for harder. I also powder coat every thing but my black powder loads.