Loading .45 Colt with Holy Black

[Dragoon 45]

As I understand it, the original loading for the .45 Colt was a 250 grain LRN over 40 grains 3FG. I can not find any info on whether or not a wad is needed between the powder and the bullet.

I will be loading for SASS and firing the rounds out of a stainless Ruger Vaquero and a Marlin 1894-CB. I doubt if I will be firing at targets much over 50 yards away.

Are the wads necessary or is just seating the bullet over the powder enough to do the job?

Thank You.

[Don McDowell]

I like to use a .030 fiber wad under the bullet.
37 grs of Goex 3f is about as much as will fit in a winchester case and still leave room for a bullet without severely compressing the powder.
That load will lob a remington 255 just short of 900 fps from a 5.5 inch Ruger new vaquero.

[shooter37]

I have used black in the 44/40 with good results. Although you asked about the 45 LC this info may apply.
I use a 200 Gr. boolit with SPG lube in RP cases. Primer is Winchester LP.
I do not use a wad but I do compress the powder charge just enough to seat the bullet to the correct cartridge length. I use a compression die just like loading
BPCR rounds. With GOEX 3F I can get 35 Gr. in the case and compress about 3/16".
Be sure the bullet seats on the powder charge (no air gap).
One hint: I wipe off the boolit base to get all the lube off (dry base).
I haven't chron'd the load but it shoots as well as smokeless loads out to 50 yards and beyond. More fun though.

Good luck
Al

[1874Sharps]

I shoot CAS with 45 Colt BP loads and they are quite accurate and plenty stout. In fact, I started shooting 45 Schofield in my 45s for economy and better recovery. The load I have been casting and shooting is a 230 grain RCBS Cowboy LRFN over 35 grains of either FFFG or FFG, with no wad. There is certainly nothing wrong with using a wad or not using a wad, as either can work just fine.

[lathesmith]

A wad isn't necessary, you just need to use black powder bullet lube and seat to give a little compression.
However, lots of guys use a wad or two, or some kind of filler, to reduce the powder charge. A casefull of black in 45 Colt is a stout--but not really uncomfortable--load. In the shooting games, however, the stout=recoil, which slows you down, hence the move to reduce the powder charge. You still need light compression of the powder though, so don't just loose-load it like smokeless. Like 1874 mentioned, the shorter brass of the Schofield round still gives plenty of power, and some guys even use the shorter-still 45 Cowboy Special brass.

lathesmith

[Nobade]

You really need to see what Dick Dastardly has to offer for boolit moulds. They make shooting the real gunpowder a lot more fun and successful. www.biglube.com

Since I have tried his designs I am a believer!

[Dragoon 45]

Thanks everyone for the info. Looks like I can do it either way, with or without the wads.

[Dale53]

I have shot .45 Colt Black Powder revolvers in a good number of score matches as well as steel matches. A few years ago, when I was actively competing in BPCR Silhouette matches, it was common to have "side matches" for black powder revolvers. Some were steel matches and some were score matches using NRA targets at twenty-five and fifty yards. I had lots of muzzle loading experience as well as black powder cartridge rifle but none with revolvers.

Mike Venturino's book, "Shooting Colt Single Actions" has detailed information on loading, cleaning and caring for the black powder revolver. Since I knew that I didn't know much, I followed Mike's recipes and had IMMEDIATE success. My "Crowning Glory" was when I won seven of eight matches BPC revolver matches at Friendship, IN and had 92/100 on the NRA Slow Fire Target at fifty yards. This with a fixed sighted Ruger Vaquero.

My bullet was the Lyman 452664 sized .452", my alloy was 30/1 lead/tin, and my lubricant was the same I used in my BPC Rifle - Emmert's Home Mix. The gold standard is STP and I get the same results with Emmert's (not better, but as good). My revolver would do under 2" at 25 yards with black powder. I could shoot 75 shots without cleaning before the cylinder started binding up and the accuracy left. As per Mike's suggestions, I used no wads. I filled the case with powder so that it would be compressed 1/16" by the bullet. Any more powder and you could damage the bullet by heavy compression. Of course, I could have used a compression die but that was just more work for little return.

One of the amazing things to me is that my revolver would get nearly 1000 fps with that bullet and black powder. Recoil was noticeable but quite usable. That is a POWERFUL load and illustrated to me why the .45 Colt was so highly thought of by the cavalry and period cowboys. You won't win many present day Cowboy matches with that load as the recoil raises the revolver nearly straight up in the air. Cowboy shooting is on close, large targets and are won on speed. The idea is to have less recoil. That is why .38's (and in some cases, .32's are popular). The .45 Cowboy Special cases (same capacity as the .45 ACP but with a .45 Colt rim) have merit - use less powder, less power, and less recoil. It's simply physics.

I found that you could regulate the velocity from 750 FPS using 2F Elephant powder or raise it to near 1000 fps with 3F Swiss. Goex was in between in power (this, using full size .45 Colt cases).

Just a comment or two...

Dale53

[shotman]

Ok HI jack win makes a case that has a larger flash hole will it do any better of worse It says for blanks but guessing that is because of no back pressure . would black burn better?

[Dale53]

I have no experience with blank cases. However, I had NO ignition problems with Fed 150's with normal flash holes. I, personally, would not be interested in drilled out or larger flash holes. Blanks have little back pressure, unlike loaded rounds.

It was fashionable one time to drill out BPCR flashholes but I don't hear of much of that anymore. Although, to be truthful, I am pretty much "out of the loop" regarding BPCR these days due to vision problems.

Dale53

[NickSS]

I use schofield cases for BP loads in the 45 colt as it requires less powder to fill it up and makes a grate load for general shooting and plinking. Actually most of my BP loads in the 45 colt use a .454 ball over 28 gr of FFFG with a lubed felt wad under the ball. Its the same load I use in my cap and ball revolver. Shoots good and is relatively economical and has low recoil for cowboy shoots. It even works in my Puma lever action.

[cajun shooter]

I will +1 on the post by NickSS and 1874 Sharps when they say to use the 45 Schofield case in your 45 Colt for CAS shooting. I have been doing so for the past 2 1/2 years and it works great. It is also period correct. Many regular cowboys used this round once it was available. It has plenty of boom and smoke to please the crowd but is much easier to shoot than the standard load. Mike Ventirino suggests this in his book Shooting Sixguns Of The Old West.

[ammohead]

Would a felix lube made soft enough to work in a lubesizer without heat work with black powder?

[Cannoneer]

The .45 Colt with black powder is a great way to get attention. I use the 250 grain PRS Big Lube bullet on top of 40 grains of Goex 2Fg, compressed with a compression die to be able to get the bullet into the case and crimp it in place.

As these are generally rather stiff loads I have dropped back to using the Schofield cases and 25 grains of 2Fg and the same 250 grain bullet. I still get plenty of BANG and smoke and dirty looks from the smokeless boys, but I have fun.

[felix]

Try it and see. Sounds like a fun experiment. Not worth fixing up a whole luber machine with lube just for BP unless you want to continue the fun. We can tailor the stuff for excellent service should you like after some honest experimenting with what you have in the machine now. ... felix

[Grapeshot]

As I understand it, the original loading for the .45 Colt was a 250 grain LRN over 40 grains 3FG. I can not find any info on whether or not a wad is needed between the powder and the bullet.

I will be loading for SASS and firing the rounds out of a stainless Ruger Vaquero and a Marlin 1894-CB. I doubt if I will be firing at targets much over 50 yards away.

Are the wads necessary or is just seating the bullet over the powder enough to do the job?

Thank You.

Well, shooting for CAS doesn't require a full charge or max charge of BP. The US Army load of 28 - 30 grains of 2Fg a cork or fiber wad and a 230 to 250 grain bullet will give enough bang for your buck. I use a variety of 250 grain bullets. Depending on what I have at hand I have used the RCBS 250 grain RNFP, the Lyman 250 grain Cowboy RNFP with the wide greese groove and the 250 grain PRS big lube boolit. All of these have been lubed with my own mix of Beeswax/crisco/candle wax.

When using the .45 Colt in a lever gun, the compressed charge of 40 grains of 2Fg and a 250 grain PRS Big Lube Boolit is best so that you get complete obturation and keep the fouling out of the action.

As for wads, I've used them on and off and haven't noticed any change in accuracy.

[prs]

Well, shooting for CAS doesn't require a full charge or max charge of BP. The US Army load of 28 - 30 grains of 2Fg a cork or fiber wad and a 230 to 250 grain bullet will give enough bang for your buck. I use a variety of 250 grain bullets. Depending on what I have at hand I have used the RCBS 250 grain RNFP, the Lyman 250 grain Cowboy RNFP with the wide greese groove and the 250 grain PRS big lube boolit. All of these have been lubed with my own mix of Beeswax/crisco/candle wax.

When using the .45 Colt in a lever gun, the compressed charge of 40 grains of 2Fg and a 250 grain PRS Big Lube Boolit is best so that you get complete obturation and keep the fouling out of the action.

As for wads, I've used them on and off and haven't noticed any change in accuracy.



There is iron in Grapeshots words. Our original poster may be for a bit of good luck since he is shooting Roogers and Marlins in 45 Colt because the chambers among those are usually very close in measurment. Thus; if he form fires his brass in one; it will still most likely chamber easily in the others. If so, he can raise his full length sizer to where it only sizes that space to be occupied by the boolit. Sort of "neck sizing" a straight case. Then, even with a modest loading for CAS use, the Marlin will have a well sealed fit of brass in chamber. I use the PRS which drops for me at .454 and lube/size in a .454 die. The RCBS Cowboy Die sets (if you can find them have .454 internal sizer for lead boolits too. For practice, plinking and such I drop 25 grains of Shuetzen and then just enough Quaker Quick Grits to give a modest compression and a modest roll crimp. Do it all on a 5 station progresive press with two measures, lickity split! BUT, its remarkable how using the form fired cases will give you a larger internal capacity to duplicate the loads they usta get with ballon cases for when you really wanna shoot big! Wads! Lube cookies! Nahhhhh. Just use the Big Lube PRS like provided by Springfield Slim who sponsors here.

prs

[ClemBert]

I typically load 35 grains of 3Fg holly black with a 0.030 walter wad behind a 250 grain LRNFP. For fun I'll jack up the powder to 40 grains and still used the walter wad. In both cases I use a compression plug in die to make room for the bullet. With 40 grains and a walter wad the powder is in there pretty tight. It kind of makes you wonder how much of the powder is blown out without ignition.

[Lee]

Off thread a bit, but any slick comments on cleaning after you run the black thru a revolver?? I still cringe at the nightmare of rust/corrosion........Lee

[Dale53]

You are going to be flooded with LOTS of completely different answers.

Mike Venturino's preference is SOS Window Cleaner "with vinegar" in his book Shooting Colt Single Actions. I've always found Mike's suggestions to be "on point".

I live 45 minutes from the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Ass'n grounds at Friendship, IN. I use "Friendship Speed Juice" to dissolve the black powder fouling and follow up with Ed's Red. FSJ is a home mixture of:
One pint of Murphy's Oil Soap
One pint of Rubbing Alcohol
One pint of Hydrogen Peroxide

This mixture must be kept in a dark bottle after mixing as the Peroxide is damaged by exposure to light. I just use the Peroxide bottle for range use and keep the balance in a cabinet out of direct light until I transfer it to the Peroxide bottle. You'll find naysayers all over the internet that claim it'll ruin your gun. I had Bill Knight, an organic chemist and genuine Black Powder consultant to the industry, run a check on it and there is NOTHING wrong with it. You DO need to follow up with a good preservative, as it chemically cleans things and leaves very little to protect. That's why I follow up with Ed's Red.

I clean on the range, immediately after shooting. Two or three days later I run a patch wet with Ed's Red through the bore and cylinder chambers again and wipe the gun off (good military practice).

My guns look as good as new and they have been shot THOUSANDS of times with black powder.

Mike suggests that a revolver should be completely taken apart once a year and cleaned and lubed. That is good advice.

Another thing I do at the range after shooting. I decap the cases and drop them in a gallon milk jug with a few squirts of Dawn dish washing detergent. They'll be nearly clean by the time you get them home. Then it is a good and thorough rinse in hot water, thrown into a colander, and excess water shaken off. You can then spread out to dry on a newspaper overnight but I throw then into my Dillon tumbler, while still wet, and tumble then dry. They come out bright and shiny for another trip to the reloader.

FWIW
Dale53

[Don McDowell]

Off thread a bit, but any slick comments on cleaning after you run the black thru a revolver?? I still cringe at the nightmare of rust/corrosion........Lee

Most any combination of soap and water( Simple Green and water is my favorite) or even just plain water, wet a patch use a jag (not the slotted tips). Run a few thru the bore, then clean each chamber in the cylinder. Dry patch everything and then oil the gun inside and out.
Cleaning the cases is almost more trouble than cleaning the gun.

[w30wcf]

As I understand it, the original loading for the .45 Colt was a 250 grain LRN over 40 grains 3FG. I can not find any info on whether or not a wad is needed between the powder and the bullet.
Thank You.

Here's a pic of an early .45 Colt b.p. cartridge. THere was no wad between the bullet and the powder charge.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/UMC45ColtBPpaint.jpg

w30wcf

[Gellot Wilde]

Wow, they used a HB bullet too...I assumed (wrongly) that they were flat.

Maybe I need to pay a little more attention when I'm reading.

[Duck45LC]

with a hollow base bullet won't you have an air gap or is it not enough to worry about. new to reloading would like to try son bp 45 long colts.

[Duck45LC]

newbie here: would like to try loading some BP 45lc looks like i'm in the right spot for information. The biggest thing i have heard is Do not have any air space with BP. Wouldn't a hollow base bullet cause an air-gap or is it small enough not to worry about.

[Don McDowell]

As long as the skirts are in firm contact with the powder or the wad over the powder there's no problem.

[Dale53]

All of my black powder loading for revolvers use my own cast bullets. The Lyman 452664 was my choice as it had a nice large "square" lube groove. For black powder, I use 30/1 lead/tin (the same alloy I used in my BPCR). This shoots extremely well and does not lead at all.

The original Keith 454424 (with square deep and wide lube groove should work just as well but doesn't look "period" if that matters.

I have cast up some 200 gr "Big Lube" bullets from a borrowed mould but have yet to try them. It should happen this spring.

FWIW
Dale53

[Duck45LC]

dale53 what do you use to decap at the range with

[wills]

dale53 what do you use to decap at the range with

This is a .40-65. Should be able to get one for .45 Colt

[Don McDowell]

I use the lee hand press with the universal decapping die.

[Dale53]

Duck45LC;
You can use any number of methods - from the simple punch and base to the pliers type that Wills mentions and pictures above. I use a "Jake" Simmons Pope Style de-capper. It is quick, efficient, and precise.

Dale53

[Duck45LC]

thanks guys ive been looking for a Lyman 310 hand loader and was wondering if they have a decapping die seperate of the sizing die for range decapping 45lc. Haven't loaded any with bp yet but i want to get all tools necessary for when i do.

[Yance]

thanks guys ive been looking for a Lyman 310 hand loader and was wondering if they have a decapping die seperate of the sizing die for range decapping 45lc. Haven't loaded any with bp yet but i want to get all tools necessary for when i do.

Lyman did make a "universal" decapping die for the 310 tool. Mine doesn't have a number stamped on it. I have one I use at matches and it'll do any CF cartridge up to .45-90, and works with either the large or small 310 handles, the only difference being the length of the threaded portion.

It does help to have the correct size insert in the handle if you're doing smaller cases like 38 Special, but with the .45 Colt you'll be fine.