Handgun accuracy

[joeb33050]

I'm looking for average group sizes from C.F. revolvers and auto-load pistols at 50 and/or 100 yards. For revolvers I measure 6 shot group size and best-five-shot group size. Need at least 5 cylinders or magazines worth of shots-maybe settle on 6 shots for auto-loaders.
Looking for some experience with the barrel-frame constriction on revolvers, whether it needs to be removed or not.
Also looking for reports on the restriction or not-description of the revolver and how much restriction there was.
As a check, I've been shooting a Ruger MKII 22 RF with a scope at 50 and 100 yards, 10 shots per group, 5 groups per test. Rem std vel Target. Al using the Miraclerest.
At 50 yards, averages have been 1.37", 1.95", 2.6", 1.43". At 100 yards, averages were 3.32", 3.42".
Thus, this gun shoots better = smaller groups than my revolver/s by far.
Any data greatly appreciated.
joe b.

[danski26]

This may be a dumb question but what are "C.F. Revolvers?"

[BABore]

This may be a dumb question but what are "C.F. Revolvers?"


Center Fire. As opposed to rimfire, pinfire, percussion cap, flintlock, wheellock, matchlock, .... Sorry, I just couldn't help myself. :grin:

[7br]

I shoot a .41 Dan Wesson which should not have the barrel/frame constriction. If I do my part, 4 inch groups at 100 with a 7x scope and bags or a rest is not all that hard with proven loads. About 2 1/2 inch is my best group. Your mileage might vary.

[versifier]

With a semi auto intended as a carry gun, I'm happy if a magful pieplates at 25yds, but I realize that is not what you were asking. If I'm looking for long range accuracy, I will usually choose my Contender. The following may partially answer your question, but is all the data I can provide that might be relevant.

My MkII, which I consider to be a target pistol (though I do hunt with it :-D ) has accuracy on a par with yours, and is probably my favorite handgun. Unscoped, I have competed (and won) against rifles shooters using it in informal matches at 25 and 50yds. I do not own any CF semis that I consider target accurate, but my Glock 23 comes closest. It will keep most anything in a group 4" or less at 25yds if I'm doing my part, and I do not shoot it at longer ranges. I class it as a carry gun, though.

My S&W 686 with 8 3/8" bbl and 2X scope will do 2-3" for 6 shots at 50yds from a sandbag rest with its favorite loads, and easily pieplates freehand. I haven't begun 75 & 100yd tests with it yet. I have never measured anything but its throats, and it is reasonably cast friendly with boolits sized to .358".

[StarMetal]

Just yesterday I had done some work on my German Luger in 7.65 Parabellum caliber (30 cal) and went out and shot it at 25 yards. I shot a six shot group into one inch with a Lee cast bullet. So yes, centerfires can be very accurate in all kinds of handguns. A S&W 44 mag that I had once would groups six Saecon 240 gr TC nose gaschecked cast bullets into just about 3/4 inch using a scope and off a bench. Those little Ruger semi-auto 22's shoot very good.

Joe

[utk]

What's a Miraclerest? Can it be bought or home-built?

Urban

[fecmech]

Joe--The following group sizes are averages for at least 4-6 shot groups (5 shot in the GP100 as it has 1 chamber that is not quite right) All groups are 50 yds shot with a dot sight off bags.

K-38--1.73" H&G 158rn
2.34" H&G #50 wc
2.0" Rem HBWC
2.66" 358429 Lyman Keith
GP100----2.6" H&G 158 rn (same load as above in K38)
1.9" 358429 50/50 lino/ww (1200fps)
2.7" 358429 ACWW (same as above load)

Ruger SBH----2.5" Lyman 429421@1350fps. 3:1 WW/Lino

None of these loads involve weighing bullets or powder charges. Bullets get checked visually while casting and sizing, thats it. Every thing is lubed with hard lubes (that sometimes stays on the bullets all the way yo the berm!) and loaded on an old CH Auto champ progressive loader. Nick

[StarMetal]

fecmech,

Following group, circled one, is the RCBS 255 SWC over 9 grains of Unique out of a Smith Model 25 45 Colt off sand bag with iron sights at 100 yards.

Joe

http://www.hunt101.com/img/370818.jpg

[Bass Ackward]

Looking for some experience with the barrel-frame constriction on revolvers, whether it needs to be removed or not.
Also looking for reports on the restriction or not-description of the revolver and how much restriction there was.joe b.


joeb,

I have seen many constrictions and about .006 was the worst. I have both removed and elected NOT to remove them on guns for various reasons.

Did the gun with .006 need to have the constriction removed? No. And Yes. It all depends on how you shoot cast.

If your style was to run slow powders where the pressure peaked after the constriction, then a PB bullet would re-obturate and accurate loads could be found.

If you wanted to shoot hard or GC bullets with fast powders, bullets would be sized down and since pressure was already dropping, the bullet bounced around with gas cutting and catastrophic results.

Ever listen to arguments about a guy liking hard bullets as comparred to a guy preferring soft? There are many more variations to this and all you have to do is think logically. Some might believe a constriction is a bigger issue for a guy running a 38 special shooting wadcutters than a guy running a 357 Mag flat out. Why? Because the Special never generates much pressure to begin with. This is really the same argument presented above only confused by caliber if you can not see passed it.

In the world of cast, many styles (opinions) of reloading or shooting come from people adapting to the conditions "they" have at hand.

Bottom line is that handgun or rifle, there is no substitute for perfect dimensions if you want maximum "flexibility" in the use of cast.

And yes I did remove the constriction. Because the gun was mine. Did it shoot any better, yes with hard or GCed bullets.

[jhalcott]

I have a taurus .38 snubby that will "group" 5 shots in six inches at 25 yards ,no matter what load. A berretta 40S&W that likes some loads enough to keep them in 4 to 5 inch groups at 50 yds. my Ruger SBH could put 5 in inch&a half at 50 yards.I have a S&W 45 auto(model 645) that is scary accurate with target loads! I used to win lots of$$ putting 5 shots undr an inch at 25yards OFFhand! Now I'm lucky to hit the berm with it! Carpal tunnel and arthritis!

[TCLouis]

6 five shot groups . . .

That is 5 shots from one chamber onto one of 6 different targets. one target per chamber so groups are comparing the same chamber, the overlay the groups if need be.

This will prove the accuracy of the chambers as well as the revolver.

For instance with an accurate load I get 5 shots into one hole and one shot about a inch and a quarter away. The funny thing that is true in my SRH and Redhawk. That little error gets hidden is less accurate loads.

My super blackhawk . . . . heck I am happy if all six hits are on the same 24"X24" backer.

Of course this is just one opinion!

[fecmech]

Nice shooting Joe!

[StarMetal]

Nice shooting Joe!


Thanks fecmech, you done some right nice shooting too pardner!! :Fire:

Joe

[StarMetal]

Fellows...this a target at 25 yards with my P08 German Luger 1920 commercial model in 7.65 Parabellum. Lee 100 gr round nose over 4.0 grs of Unique. I shot standing up leaning my arms right before my eldbow against my brick retaining wall...basically almost off hand. That's four shots in the bullseye in about 3/4 inch and I was feeling really guilty so I pulled that 5th shot on purpose. [smilie=1::Fire:

Joe

[joeb33050]

What's a Miraclerest? Can it be bought or home-built?

Urban
Here it is, the box is 8" high, and should be higher. Miraclerest made from 1"? pvc pipe and fittings and a "U" clamp and a lot of tape. The butt rests on a wooden wedge with sheet rubber glued on. I had to file the butt and magazine to keep them from catching. Just a bit. This is dead still thru a 7X scope, no tremor or movement at all.
joe b.

[joeb33050]

What's a Miraclerest? Can it be bought or home-built?

Urban
ANOTHER TRY AT THE PICTURE

[joeb33050]

ANOTHER TRY AT THE PICTURE
YET ANOTHER TRY

[joeb33050]

Here it is, the box is 8" high, and should be higher. Miraclerest made from 1"? pvc pipe and fittings and a "U" clamp and a lot of tape. The butt rests on a wooden wedge with sheet rubber glued on. I had to file the butt and magazine to keep them from catching. Just a bit. This is dead still thru a 7X scope, no tremor or movement at all.
joe b.
AND ANOTHER (I'VE GOT 3 SCREENS GOING HERE AT THE SAME TIME.)

[robertbank]

NIce shooting Joe. Trade you eyes!

Take Care

Bob

[KCSO]

Unless there are serious problems with the gun, the main question is how good do you shoot! Certianly the box stock semi's won't group like a good revolver, but even a box stock Glock will shoot into 10" at 100 yards and my 1911 will hold into 5" if I do my part. I had a K38 that would consistantly group into 4" at 100 yards and 25 yard groups from the bench were usually at 1". I have seen some Rugers that wouldn't shoot, but this is usually traced back to the wrong throat, the 44-40's are notorous for this. Right now I have a Cimarron 1872 in 44 russian that will put a full cylinder on a man sized steel target at 100 yards and the sights are a notch and a barlycorn. Most guns can stand some improvment, but most of them will out shoot even a good shot most of the time.

[7br]

YET ANOTHER TRY
Joe, I am pretty sure I have the pics. let me try.
By the way, for 5 bucks, this is a heck of a rest.

One improvement might be to have the u-bolt pointing down. I have a revolver with the scope mounted further forward and the wingnuts catch the scope

[Dale53]

While each bench presents it's own set of problems, some dimensions would give us a place to start. I have access to a Ransom Rest but do not have all of the fittings (every handgun is different).

Dale53

[joeb33050]

While each bench presents it's own set of problems, some dimensions would give us a place to start. I have access to a Ransom Rest but do not have all of the fittings (every handgun is different).

Dale53
Thanks for the pictures, 7BR, I can't figure out the picture instructions. The MIRACLEREST works fine with the "U" bolt either way, up or down. The pvc pipe is 3/4", measures just about 1" O.D. I have a pvc pipe cutter that makes the fiddling easier. Just sit at the bench/table and fiddle with the parts, trying different heights. The hardwood wedge allows height adjustment at the butt end. The top "T" is cut with a sabre saw to about half diameter. There's a lot of masking tape going on here, on the miraclerses, the u bolt and the gun.
I made a box with 1/2" plywood and 1X8 that's about 8" high, I shoot off this, but it's not high enough. I've got to get the pistol up in the air so I can see through my trifocals-shooting a pistol off the bench without the box is just about impossible. You must be comfortable. I'll send some pix with box to 7BR, maybe he'll put them up.
joe b.

[Bucks Owin]

Here's a look at my homebrewed handgun rest made from hardwood scraps from around the table saw and typical results obtained. Future improvements call for an adjustable length, as you can see it's too short for my "pet" Flattop .44...(I had used a 6" M-19 as the "mule" for it's construction....) The gun is able to recoil freely off the rest....
(Hell, it even has a little "practice checkering" on it!) :D

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/Flatt001.jpghttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/Flatt013.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/310L001.jpg

[joeb33050]

1. I'd like permission to use your replies in the book. OK?
2. Need more data, group sizes at 50 and 100, # groups shot, etc. Example:
6/21/06 M29 S&W 8 3/8" bbl, 100 yards, 429421 Alox 8.5 Unique
6 shot groups
4.5", 5.2", 3.5", 2.8", 3.6"

How bout some testing for this?
Anybody?
Thanks;
joe b.