Linen gaschecks?

[softpoint]

This has probably been tried before? I was thinking this morning (evacuate nearby villages!) I've used gaschecks, I've used paper patching, and I''ve shot linen patched round balls. So why not a linen gascheck? I used my gasket punch set to punch a 9/16 linen disk from a Butch's Boreshine linen cleaning patch. I also tried a 5/8inch. These were placed in the center of of my lubersizer die and sized a boolit on them. Here are some pics of the results. The linen stretched a little unevenly on the sides of the boolit , but that may not be enough to hurt anything. This linen cloth appears to be very strong.
Iwill shoot a few this afternoon to see what happens. (this is 45/70 caliber) These were scrap boolits

[dakotashooter2]

Interesting...Makes one wonder if something like tyvek might work.

[ghh3rd]

Maybe Gortex, so it can 'breathe' while it's waiting to be used :kidding:

It really does look interesting though, and I'd like to see how it turns out.

[softpoint]

OK, I just got out some Ballistic Products overshot 12 guage Tyvek disks. They will go on the boolits, too, but are a bit large, as is, and want to stay in the sizer die. If they were cut down, or if smaller disks could be obtained, and stuck to the base of the boolit somehow, They might work. I have some spray adhesive that goes on in a very thin film. The other issue is, of course keeping this easy enough to be appealing as an alternative to using copper gaschecks.
I will see if I can make the Tyvek disks stick this afternoon as well.:smile:

[2muchstuf]

Hay softpoint beware,
Tyvek melts!!!!!!!!
2

[softpoint]

Yes, but shotgun wads are plastic, and they melt. And then there are muzzleloader sabots, and Remington Accelerator rounds. And, yes, the plastic shotgun wads do sometimes foul the barrel, but for the most part, things aren't in there long enough to melt. You can pass your hand through a candle flame without burning it if you do it fast enough. Anyway, the experimentation will be fun, even if it's not rewarding. (It will be lots more fun if it is, though:mrgreen:)

[DLCTEX]

How about paper checks? May need to use BB boolits to keep from cutting the paper. Just thinking.:veryconfu

[softpoint]

OK, I tried 2 groups. First group ran about 2 inches at 50 yards. I wasn't really happy with the way the patches were "ironing" onto the side of the boolit. I got zero leading, and this load had been giving me a little leading in this rifle.
I punched 5 more patches out, but instead of 5/8 inch, I went to 3/4 inch. Here is a pic of that 5 shot group at 50 yards. Cleaned the barrel again. Zero leading. Now, this is not a hot load, or even a warm load, but it did give some leading in this particular rifle, and for whatever reason, the patch did eliminate that. And, it did so without hurting accuracy at all. Actually this rifle seldom shoots this well with any cast load. The one shot outside the main group was the first shot from a freshly cleaned barrel. that may or may not have had anything to do with it. I'm thinking it might be worthwhile to do a bit more experimentation?

[softpoint]

How about paper checks? May need to use BB boolits to keep from cutting the paper. Just thinking.:veryconfu

Paper checks could work, too, but Ive tried that with regular boolits and the boolit base did cut the paper. I've thought about a thicker paper or thin cardboard check swaged onto a gascheck based boolit, too.
So far, the linen is working. Next I am going to try some warmer loads with these

[Firebricker]

Definately worth more experimentation. Even if it does'nt work as well on warmer load's you still may have a cheaper option than copper for plinking load's. FB

[softpoint]

Now, 5 rounds loaded with 55gr. 3031, or rather all I could cram in the case without a drop tube. This boolit weighs 345 gr. and is cast of air cooled wheelweights. I didn't set up a chronograph, but loading manuals claim I should be getting 1900+ fps. My first shot barely nicked the top of the target paper, so I had to stick on a different aiming point. The next 4 shots went 1 7/8 inches,centers, at 50 yards. now, this is with no load development, and may be a little fast for the hardness? so I'm not too disappointed. On cleaning the barrel, only a few minute specks of lead! This may be an alternative to gaschecks at least some of the time. Of course I have no idea how it will work on other calibers or speeds, but I'll be trying them.

[jdgabbard]

Very interesting...

[deltaenterprizes]

I had read a long time ago of using discs cut from styrofoam trays that meat is used for packaging meat to make a type of gas check that was supposed to work well.

[mooman76]

I have been meaning to try a thin foam with a sticky backing on it used in craftes. I was going to cut them with a hole punch and try. There is also a company that sells something called soft checks which I have been told appear to be made from a waffer wax material. I thought of trying those but with the climate I live in I didn't think it would work well here.

[Naphtali]

Your gas check covers/protects only the bullet's base. Paul Matthews, and almost certainly forum members, has successfully used paper patching on cast bullets intended for conventional loading. You might consider taking a look at the full dose [of paper/linen patching].

Another alternative might be to find out [more] about the use of linen and rag paper cross patching in muzzleloading slug guns and in muzzle breech loaders, such as Harry Pope made.

Just some thoughts.

[Rex]

I've used the styrofoam meat tray checks in my 357. Still leaded! the checks didn't burn, just flattened out. A few could be found on the ground after shooting. I gave up on styrofoam and went back to retular checks.
Rex

[softpoint]

Naphtali, Ialready do a substantial amount of paper patching. And Ihave gotten good results. I am looking for a way to make a lot of mid- level loads with plainbase molds and give the boolit bases a little protection, Just experimenting.
You mentioned the crossed paper strip form of patching, I have read of that, but have never tried it. I did try the Tyvek patches today, and they didn't seem to work very well. The barrel still lightly leaded the same as it did with the unprotected bases. So, so far, the linen has given the best results.
Can cross patching be used in cartridge guns? I always thought it was only for muzzle loaders.

[Blammer]

your scrap boolits seem to be better than your prime picks. :)

[Marlin Hunter]

The fiber check probably wouldn't work in a bottle neck case. The straight wall cases would hold the fiber in place has it exited the case.

[JeffinNZ]

I think you may have just reinvented the cloth patch for round ball shooting.

[ktw]

I am looking for a way to make a lot of mid- level loads with plainbase molds and give the boolit bases a little protection

If you are using a straight sided cartridge and midrange powders you might want to try a load that involves a small amount of Cream of Wheat filler.

I've had good luck with it in 38-55 with plain based bullets and in 32 Win Special with unchecked gas check designs.

-ktw

[Naphtali]

Naphtali, . . .
Can cross patching be used in cartridge guns? I always thought it was only for muzzle loaders. I don't know. The only problem I foresee would be cross-patching losing adherence with bullet as bullet jumped from case past leade to rifling. With [muzzleloaders and] single shot breech loaders, we can load the cartridge so bullet has no jump; patching remains where it needs to.

I suspect you would need a fixture to maintain patch strips at 90 degrees. Eyeballing is a surefire method for shotgun groups.

[ghh3rd]

I have found a material that is composed of 75 percent cotton and 25 percent linen that works very well for your purpose... the only problem is that I can only obtain it in limited quantities.

(ps: it's United States currency) :kidding:

[softpoint]

If you are using a straight sided cartridge and midrange powders you might want to try a load that involves a small amount of Cream of Wheat filler.

I've had good luck with it in 38-55 with plain based bullets and in 32 Win Special with unchecked gas check designs.

-ktw

I've heard of folks running plainbase boolits full throttle using cream of wheat. I've never tried it. I put some in some of these cartridges, but it didn't seem to make a lot of difference. Maybe I didn't have enough pressure? the cream of wheat is supposed to form a solid "slug" behind the boolit to protect it I'm told. I have a Marlin 375Winchester I'm going to try out when I get these 45/70 loads performing. It has the dreaded Micro Groove,too!

[softpoint]

I have found a material that is composed of 75 percent cotton and 25 percent linen that works very well for your purpose... the only problem is that I can only obtain it in limited quantities.

(ps: it's United States currency) :kidding:
If our economy keeps on the downhill slide it's been on, we will have a supply of fine paper patch material quite cheap.:-|

[lwknight]

Got me thinking about soaking the cloth in Alox and letting it dry. Seems like the Alox would adhere to the boolit base and seal the fibers to boot.

[wizard93]

Perhaps you could try using gas checks made from Kevlar. After all, they ARE bullet-proof. :roll:


wizard93

[lwknight]

If you could get Kevlar cut, it sure would not cut on the boolit base when you did not want it too. That stuff is double tough to cut.

[softpoint]

Got me thinking about soaking the cloth in Alox and letting it dry. Seems like the Alox would adhere to the boolit base and seal the fibers to boot.

That is a great idea! The Alox could be thinned considerably, and the patches could be stuck on the center of the boolits before they are placed on the sizer die. I am going to prep some like that today. I don't think these patches will totaly replace gaschecks here, but they do work, and allow higher velocity with a plainbase mold, and so far as I see, no loss of accuracy. I need a better way to punch out patches, I can see that already. I'm putting the linen on a block of linotype to cut it with my punch, but these Butch's Boreshine patches are pretty tough to cut

[Wayne Smith]

Cut a strip of patch material .458" wide. Cut length to twice the bearing length of the boolit plus .458". Place two strips, one atop the other, over the sizing die. Size as usual. This is basically how the cross patching worked with the slug guns. Two layers under the boolit and one around the side. Good write-up and pictures in The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle and I'm blocking on the author. Whelan? One of the giants of the early-mid 20th century shooting and loading, anyway.

They used paper. I'm not sure that would make the jump but I think linen might.

[softpoint]

Cut a strip of patch material .458" wide. Cut length to twice the bearing length of the boolit plus .458". Place two strips, one atop the other, over the sizing die. Size as usual. This is basically how the cross patching worked with the slug guns. Two layers under the boolit and one around the side. Good write-up and pictures in The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle and I'm blocking on the author. Whelan? One of the giants of the early-mid 20th century shooting and loading, anyway.

They used paper. I'm not sure that would make the jump but I think linen might.

Fully patching the bearing surfaces would surely work, although I would use a little alox on the strips, and may be a little harder to put on, and keep everything square, as Napthali said. I'm going to give that a try today, too, given time. I am guessing paper would shear off in the sizer, unless you started with undersized boolits to begin with.

[Wayne Smith]

If I remember right they did use lubed patches. I'm at work, the book is at home.

[rob45]

Cut a strip of patch material .458" wide. Cut length to twice the bearing length of the boolit plus .458". Place two strips, one atop the other, over the sizing die. Size as usual. This is basically how the cross patching worked with the slug guns. Two layers under the boolit and one around the side. Good write-up and pictures in The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle and I'm blocking on the author. Whelan? One of the giants of the early-mid 20th century shooting and loading, anyway.

They used paper. I'm not sure that would make the jump but I think linen might.

This method was referenced by Naphtali in post #15. If softpoint is shooting these loads in his 1895, it's probably not going to work very well. BTDT.

The patching system to which you refer is called the strip patch, and that system is conducive to being loaded from the muzzle. Two strips perpendicular to each other (forming a cross) or, more commonly, three strips spaced sixty degrees from each other. The system works great as fed through the muzzle, because the patch is already engaged with the rifling; there is no jump to the rifling. But attempting to use the same system when loading from the breech presents some obstacles.

I've experimented with trying to get the strip patch to work in breech-loaded guns, but never attained any success. Then again, I only used paper.

The primary obstacle is keeping the patch uniformly intact upon engagement to the rifling.
With a wraparound patch, this problem is usually addressed by wrapping a wet patch so as to have the leading edge slightly ahead of the front driving band, i.e., just barely on the ogive. As the patch dries, it shrinks to form a tight fit in that area and that takes care of the engagement/tearing problem.
With the strip patch, I could not obtain that tight shrinkage forward of the driving band. Probably because the strip patch is parallel with the axis of the bullet instead of being wrapped around itself.
I simply could not get the patch to stay fully intact on the nose during the jump to the rifling. Inspecting the paper after the shot revealed tremendous inconsistencies.
Whatever the exact reason, I could not get it to work consistently. Maybe the sticky lube trick would help- I don't know.
If anyone else has tried this and had successful results, by all means please tell me how you did it. But I suspect with the effort that may be required to pull it off, one may be better served by doing a traditional wraparound patch.


BTW, The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle was authored by Ned Roberts.
I am looking for a textbook binding copy of this book. Mine was stolen four years ago and I am still p****d about it. Amazon has two offerings- $68 & $120. I am looking for something in better condition than the two offerings (for the price).

[softpoint]

Crossed strips won't go in the sizer. Back to the round patches. Tried some of the foil tape that is used to Beagle molds. It shears off in the sizer to the exact size of the boolit base. I don't know if that tape, or Alum. foil would be thick enough to protect the boolit's base, either. So, it's back to the linen. :coffeecom

[softpoint]

I've experimented with trying to get the strip patch to work in breech-loaded guns, but never attained any success. Then again, I only used paper

It doesn't appear to work for me either, even with the cloth. As for the paper patching, I only patch the boolits for the levergun up to the bottom of the crimp groove. The paper doesn't fail, even with a substantial roll crimp on the boolit, and it is jump-starting into the rifling as well. Hard to beat a good paper patch.

[HORNET]

IIRC, 303GUY was playing with some paper cross-patches, including in the .22 Hornet (like it's not fun enough to start with). Might look in the paper-patch forum. Also here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73972&page=2 Post #34 & 35.

[rob45]

As for the paper patching, I only patch the boolits for the levergun up to the bottom of the crimp groove. The paper doesn't fail, even with a substantial roll crimp on the boolit, and it is jump-starting into the rifling as well.

For my leverguns, I do it the same way as you're describing with no problems.

I think the reason the strip method does not work is because there is no way for the paper to provide a grip around itself. It wants to come away from the surface of the bullet too easily as soon as the bullet is released from the case, which can allow the leading edge of the strip get hung up in the leade. Maybe not always (hard to tell exactly), but certainly not conducive to consistency.

The wraparound patch doesn't present these problems because it needs nothing to hold it onto the boolit- The paper has in effect shrunk onto itself and holding itself onto the bullet, just like heat-shrink tubing on a piece of wire.

[257 Shooter]

Softpoint Any additional results yet?