Where to shop for a flintlock?

[shooting on a shoestring]

So I've toyed with the idea of getting a flintlock. I've shot BP on and off for a couple of decades. I've got percussion rifles, shotgun and C&B. Seems like a flintlock should be in the fold as well.

Trouble is, they seem very expensive, probably worth it though seeing the beautiful wood most of them have, great furniture, etc...still lots of $.

Also, I've not had warm feelings about buying without seeing.

Just where does a fellow go to see and handle some flintlocks? I looked at Walmart, they didn't have any.

I live near Austin, and travel mostly Houston to New Orleans. Anything down this way to look at?

[felix]

Google this: collectors firearms houston tx

They have the best gun store in town, so
ask them if they do not have anything to your liking. ... felix

[waksupi]

I would ask around, and find a black powder shoot or three to go to. There are a lot of them around, and lots of good back yard builders that you may get a heck of a deal from at the shoot. The more you see, and can shoot, the more you know.
If you want to learn from buckskinners, look for a grubby looking fellow, shooting a nice looking flinter. Ignore the guys with the production guns, they will know just enough to be dangerous, for the most part. The grubby old fart can show, and teach, much.

[Bullshop]

Our friend Madcaster would have steared you right but you missed asking him by a couple weeks, RIP.
When ever I see the word flintlock I will remember him.
BIC/BS

[Lead Fred]

There are two types of flintlocks, custom and production.

As far as I go, all the production guns are junk.

Thats darn near everything under $700.

Jim Chambers & Muzzleloader Supply (Ozark AR) are both on the net, and both sell the best stuff on earth.

If you want to build it, you can get away with $600-700.
If you want them to build it, it may go over a grand.

I played with production guns for 15 years. First thing you do is takem apart, rebuildem, and tune them. You might get a year or two before they start messing up.

http://www.flintlocks.com/

Here is my no name, home built 45 cal. Im no gun maker, or rocket scientist. but it came out ok.

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab211/stallhorn/Lock.jpg

[northmn]

I would ask around, and find a black powder shoot or three to go to. There are a lot of them around, and lots of good back yard builders that you may get a heck of a deal from at the shoot. The more you see, and can shoot, the more you know.
If you want to learn from buckskinners, look for a grubby looking fellow, shooting a nice looking flinter. Ignore the guys with the production guns, they will know just enough to be dangerous, for the most part. The grubby old fart can show, and teach, much.

Waksupi said about all I would say on the subject.

DP

[Hanshi]

Not much to add to what's been said. I'll just mention that if you want a reliable, high quality gun, talk to a builder. Matt Avance at TVM(uzzleloading www.avsia.com) has 5 guns for me over the past several years and all were built to my specifications and physical dimensions. Call and talk with them. A plain, unadorned but very fine gun is only a little more than most new production guns. An "in the white" one less. I mention TVM only because I've never had experience with any other builder. There are quite a few builders out there and all of them can beat any production gun. You've gotten good advice on this thread.

[oldhickory]

Here's a link to a bunch of custom builders, http://www.longrifle.ws/artisans/artisanlist.asp?membersonly=#Longrifles, Tom Mayfield's work seems good and his prices are reasonable. The one I have was made by Earl Williams of Tennessee who now specializes in Southern Long Rifles only, below is a sample of Earl's work, (my early style Pennsylvania Long rifle).

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2419/picture116z.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/i/picture116z.jpg/)

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2055/picture115q.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/i/picture115q.jpg/)

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/8620/picture117l.th.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/i/picture117l.jpg/)

As mentioned above, Jim Chambers and TVM are good reputable places to buy quality kits, I might add, The Log Cabin Shop, and Track of the Wolf. Dixie Gun Works has an on line section of contemporary long rifles, but the prices are a little high, of course, you could order one and be shooting it yet this week with 2nd day air shipping...http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=21_24_64

Just for myself, I won't own one with a straight barrel once I have one with a swamped barrel, (tapers from heavy at the breech to heavy at the muzzle, thinner in between). Go to a few shoots and handle some rifles, find what you like.

[lonewolf5347]

shoot over to traditions web page they have a closeout on the mountan rifle in 50 cal. flinter the link say 1 in 48 but it is a misprint it is 1 in 70 twist
$399.00 reg: price 699.00
I know there locks are not the best but I did talk with a few guys who bought one they said it sparks excellent:drinks:

[405]

....nah. To handle some and watch them shoot absolutely find a muzzleloader shoot or rendezvous or something like that. Surely around Austin or that part of TX there'd be a flintlock or two or buckskinner of some sort. Many gunshows have buckskinners set up and peddling stuff. I've found them to be more than happy jaw on the finer points of the art or just talk buckskinning and BS :)
felix' idea about the big store in Houston is good.

One thing tho... the glitter of the fancy wood or finish can deceive. The barrel, lock and trigger are what make the things work. The stock and finish are nice bonuses to good barrels, locks, triggers and they add dollars but they don't have much to do with them shooting.

[waksupi]

what do you think this is worth?

I have not seen it in person yet.




Not worth a darn. I had one last fall, and sent it back. The barrels are simple tubing, no strength in the breech. No idea how they are breeched, has to be VERY thin at the plug. Lock geometry sucked, almost unfixable, with soft frizzen. Trigger pull on both locks around 15-20 pounds. Definitely not worth the money.

I considered them unsafe to shoot.

[Archer]

"As far as I go, all the production guns are junk"

I will disagree with that. I have a production flintlock
that I have won a lot of off hand shoots with, while a
bunch of custom rifle's on the line didn't even flash the first
time around, much less go Bang.
But, if you have the money to spend, buy whatever makes you happy.
Opinions vary.

[exile]

Let me start by saying that I know nothing about flintlocks. However, I have run into this guy on Facebook from TN. He builds some amazing stuff, at least from the looks of it:

Leipers Fork Flintlocks (sorry I can't seem to come up with the right link, but the guys name is Greg Murry.)

Don't know if that will help or not.

exile

[TCLouis]

Greg builds a fine and PRETTY flinter.
If you are wanting a fairly cheap priced shooter he may not be the person you are looking for.

I will be glad to track down contact info for him if you are interested.

He is an artist, craftsman, and a great guy.

[exile]

Here is the link I was looking for:

http://www.leipersforkflintlocks.com/leipersforkflintlocks.com/Welcome.html

exile

[herb101]

www.caywoodguns.com

[shooting on a shoestring]

Well thanks a million for all the replies. Good stuff, looks like I've got some leads to research.

I looked at Felix's Houston Gun shop and saw a nice .45 built by Chris Hirsch. I know him as a banjo player in the area. I knew he said he built a flintlock once, but I assumed he meant assembled a kit. Never can tell what a banjo player will do.

So what's up with the swamped barrels? I take it they are hour glass shaped, but why?

[405]

I guess they add "traditional" lines to a longrifle, aesthetics if you will. It will add cost to a gun for a couple of reasons. They can be quite attractive- not to be confused with a blunderbuss :) The barrel has to be swamped then the thing has to be inletted into the stock- much more difficult/time consuming than inletting a straight channel. Originally, I think the idea was to hold weight down on the long barrel with the breech and muzzle parts thicker. While saving weight, the muzzle being thicker increased the mass there. That added inertia to the muzzle making it relatively more stable.

[SCHUETZENBOOMER]

http://www.longrifles-pr.com/

[waksupi]

A swamped barrel is much better balanced for off hand shooting, and holds steadier.

[northmn]

Mostly shooters think that swamped barrels balance better. They also give more strength at the breech and lighter weight than a straight barrel. However, a good straight 42" 13/16 inch 45 or 40 is a pleasure to hold and shoot as are some shorter straight barrels. Swamped barrels also deduct from the total weight of the gun for carrying. Go to Track of the Wolf and browse barrels. They list the weight of all barrels. Many like a B weight 50 as they are lighter than anything else offered in 50 yet still have a sustantial breech. They generally add to price as they are more expensive and a PITA to inlet. Consider that L&R offers drop in locks for a large number of production guns and that they cost more than their other lines. They muct offer those locks for a reason as they seem to sell them.

Northmn

[oldhickory]

A swamped barrel is much better balanced for off hand shooting, and holds steadier.

Exactly! They are pure pleasure to carry and hold rock steady from the off hand position. If you're going to spend the money for a custom built rifle, the little extra cost of having a swamped barrel will be well wort the money. Mine comes up and holds like it's a part of me.

The one thing I don't care for on mine is the set trigger. I much prefer a good single trigger myself.

[Lead Fred]

"As far as I go, all the production guns are junk"

I will disagree with that.

Opinions vary.

So you got a good one, the majority are not this way. Ive been going to rondies for 30 years, and if you check the flintlock forums, you will get the same posts over and over.

You have to retune most of them. Replacement parts dont exist.

Are there exceptions, of course there is. Why take the chance.

The parts we buy are so superior to the 3rd world production parts.


I guess they add "traditional" lines to a longrifle, aesthetics if you will. .

I didnt swamp my barrel for looks. It has to do with control and center of balance.
Like in the early days of cars, where there were more electric cars than gas driven.
In the golden age of flinters, there were more swamped than straight.

As calibers got bigger, straight barrels were needed because they lapped welded them, and they were not strong enough to handle the bigger calibers

[Hanshi]

IMHO a swamped barrel is at it's best in a hunting rifle. For offhand (targets in general) a straight barrel generally holds steadier (for me) due to being relatively nose heavy. A swamped barrel rifle carries and handles better in the field than a comparable straight one. They mount and swing faster as well. My .40 has a swamped barrel and is a delight to carry and shoot. But for a paper rifle I'll take a straight barrel every time.

[Archer]

" So you got a good one, the majority are not this way. Ive been going to rondies for 30 years, and if you check the flintlock forums, you will get the same posts over and over."

I've been going to rondies for well over 40 years myself, and your right, I have seen the posts, and heard the horror storys over & over, and I have seen a lot of poor production
guns that wouldn't shoot worth a hoot. I bought a Cabela's flintlock many years ago, as did my Brother, and both of those rifles have worked with out a flaw. They spark well, ( as long as you have a good flint) and have never failed to go off.
I have also seen some real purty guns go click time after time that cost 3 times what I paid for the one I have. So you can, and do get poor results from both. Sometimes it can just be a bad flint, or not enough know how on using the flinter. We both were lucky that we got two good ones. I don't know how good the newer ones are. I haven't had a chance to try one. But, if you got plenty of money to spend, go for the high end, and hope for the best.

[northmn]

When I started building, there were a few locks on the market that were not very dependable. While I generally have avoided naming names, I found that Russ Hamm flintlocks and Corchoron flintlocks were not very good sparkers. Dixie Gunworks sold some junk. If the lock was not a Siler or Haddaway it did not seem to work. I build a rifle using an Italian Ketland lock for an individual that gave me fits getting it to spark but I finally got it fairly reliable. Theere were a few Italian "delux" locks that were fairly good. The CVA delux lock was not a bad little sparker. Most of the locks made today like Chambers, whcih includes the Siler, and L&R can be made to work very well. While I have heard a lot of folks badmouth L&R I have used more than a few and they spark very well. Allen locks are also fairly good. Some of the older flinters built with some of the older locks are not as good as some of the newer production guns. The reliability of Cabelas flintlocks has improved I am sure. One of the things about a good flintlock is that you want both reliability and speed. I had a Brown Bess repo that was very reliable but you could time its lock time with a stop watch. Sometimes the "custom" builders do not know things like lock tuning or have inletting problems causing drag. Mine are not so pretty but they darn well better work. I would say a newer built rifle with good components should be a better performer. Also, they tend to look like something that was carried back when. A half stock crescent butt plains rifle is kind of iffy in a flintlock. The Traditions rifle featured in the American Hunter recently, looks clubby as H--l to me and they are not inexpensive.

Northmn

[shooting on a shoestring]

Thanks for all the replies.

I've seen lots on the net. I'm not interested in a rilfe as a canvas for artwork, or a historical piece. A plain wood and steel shooter is what I've got in mind. Good wood, good parts sure, but those seem to also come with lots of pretty stuff and more $.

Suppose I'll keep my eyes open and give good luck time to happen.

[oldhickory]

Thanks for all the replies.

I've seen lots on the net. I'm not interested in a rilfe as a canvas for artwork, or a historical piece. A plain wood and steel shooter is what I've got in mind. Good wood, good parts sure, but those seem to also come with lots of pretty stuff and more $.

Suppose I'll keep my eyes open and give good luck time to happen.

A poor boy/barn rifle/mountain rifle may be what you're looking for? They're very plain yet use good parts and exhibit good workmanship. Here's a sample from Cabin Creek, it's in kit form, but there's pictures showing a finished rifle.

http://cabincreek.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4&Itemid=13

Here's one from TVM, looks like they offer it in kit and finished rifle.

http://www.avsia.com/tvm/tennessee.htm

Looks like $550.00-$850.00 for a kit and around $850.00 is as low as I see for a finished rifle. I think Cabin Creek offers pre-assembly in the white, not sure what it costs though.

[FL-Flinter]

As a custom builder and ML gunsmith, I'd like to offer my take on things. I started ML'ing when I was a kid after buying a CVA Kentucky kit that was almost a total ***, I say almost because the barrel did actually shoot good, once it was burnished. Back then, not having the internet or any other source of ML info, I spent a lot of time figuring out how it was supposed to work then completely rebuilding the lock and trigger to make it work like it was supposed to ... I had enough time into rebuilding that brand new gun that I could have built three custom guns from scratch with all the bells & whistles and had a good gun instead of a reworked ugly ***.

In all these year, I've yet to find a single production gun that didn't, at a minimum, need to have the lock tuned and more often than not it'll need trigger work too. Just because it sparks and fires doesn't mean it does so as efficiently as it can/should. I was at a local shoot about two years ago, fellow there was bragging on his production gun, an older Lyman GPR flint. After I let him run some lead through one I built, first thing he said was, "WOW! This thing fires as fast as my percussion!" For those who comment on the custom guns not sparking or firing, the first two questions I have to ask are: 1- Does the shooter know how to properly use a flintlock? 2- Did the builder use a quality lock and/or was it properly tuned?

It doesn't matter how well the lock was made or tuned by the builder, if the shooter doesn't know how to work it properly, it's not going to perform as well as it could. Proper and complete tuning of a lock requires a certain amount of time, some locks more-so than others. There are two primary things at play here: The first being the level of quality the customer is willing to pay for; Second being the minimum level of quality the builder is willing to allow out of the shop. It never ceases to amaze me when a builder will have no qualms about buying a $300 piece of wood but then look for "the cheapest lock and barrel". Any gun is the combination of both quality components and quality craftsmanship and while one can look at a "parts set/kit" for X dollars, what's not priced are the hours of time and knowledge gained through experience to tune the lock and trigger then assemble those components in such a manner so as they perform correctly as a unit. No matter how good the lock is, if the trigger sucks or the barrel vent is not properly placed or the cheap barrel sucks, the gun as a whole will suck and the customer isn't going to be happy.

A flintlock isn't rocket surgery but the flint must not only be installed properly but also the pan must not be over/under filled. Setting the flint incorrectly, as in/out too far will change the geometry of the lock enough so that a good flint/frizzen combination still won't work correctly. Oil/fouling on the frizzen, a gummed up lock or any number of shooter-caused issues can wreck the performance of even the best lock. These issues are not related to the lock or gun builder, they lie squarely with the shooter so to make assumptions based upon shooter performance is ... well, we all know what "assume" means...

A swamped barrel does not make for a balanced gun nor does a straight barrel make for a better standing position shooter. The gun, of whatever style or length, must be balanced by the builder at least to the point of which the style will allow for it if one wishes to remain within set "reproduction" limitations, however, one can remain "PC" by building a contemporary traditional style gun based upon the customer's needs and desires. The builder must also be able to work with the shooter so as to create a gun that is both suited to and fitted to the shooter. Just as every individual human has different body characteristics, so to does every gun and the builder must have sufficient knowledge to, at a minimum, advise the customer of combinations that are known to be problematic. An example of this is if a customer calls who is 5'-7" with a smaller build, the builder should advise the customer against getting a gun with a 42"+ long straight heavy profile barrel for the simple fact that the mechanics of the gun will not match the mechanics of the shooter. Fitting of a gun to a shooter goes far beyond the basic LOP (length of pull), that is but just one of the numerous factors a builder must take into account. Unfortunately, the "cheaper & faster" method of mass-production guns has pushed the consumer into thinking they must adapt themselves to the gun rather than having a gun that fits the shooter correctly. As a builder, I believe it is my duty to provide the customer with all the information necessary to they can make an informed choice. No matter if the gun has a straight, tapered, swamped, round, octagon to round or any other profile, the total combination must be compatible with the shooter.

The primary purpose of building any gun is building a gun that is properly function and accurate, the amount of "pretty" is optional. Personally, I would much rather have a gun that is "plain" but performs well than a "work of art" that sucks for performance. To me a "work of art" begins with the total performance package being not only a gun that shoots good but one that is also properly matched and fitted to the individual shooter - once that is accomplished, then any amount of pretty can be added later ... and yes, even a "plain" piece of wood can be transformed like Cinderella through the proper application moldings, carving, color and/or inlays. On the other hand, I very much enjoy the natural beauty of what some would consider "plain" in the form of something like a poorboy style.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Old Hickory, that poorboy rilfle you linked to is what I was wanting and didn't know it. Thanks for the heads up.

FL-Flinter, Amen!

Ornate guns just don't float my boat. I can appreciate the artwork, but then I can't appreciate the gun the art is put on. I'd rather have a shooter than a looker. Having both just isn't in my price range or Scottish mind set.

My shooting, casting, reloading is a hobby that I want to bring me pleasure, not frustation from bad equipment, or feeling that I spent too much for the level of use I get out of a particular gun.

That said, I really don't need a flintlock. I want one. A good shooting one. I really don't want it to have tatoos and piercings, just nice parts and good proportions.

Looks like I'll need to find a way to spend some $s.

[freedom475]

This is a good place to at least "shop around"

http://www.historicaltrekking.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=2

The caywood is probly the best you can buy commercially.. IMO:drinks:

[FL-Flinter]

Old Hickory, that poorboy rilfle you linked to is what I was wanting and didn't know it. Thanks for the heads up.

FL-Flinter, Amen!

Ornate guns just don't float my boat. I can appreciate the artwork, but then I can't appreciate the gun the art is put on. I'd rather have a shooter than a looker. Having both just isn't in my price range or Scottish mind set.

My shooting, casting, reloading is a hobby that I want to bring me pleasure, not frustation from bad equipment, or feeling that I spent too much for the level of use I get out of a particular gun.

That said, I really don't need a flintlock. I want one. A good shooting one. I really don't want it to have tatoos and piercings, just nice parts and good proportions.

Looks like I'll need to find a way to spend some $s.

Just because a gun looks good doesn't mean it won't shoot good or that you can't "use it". Looks are there to be enjoyed all the time! I do agree though, function is first and foremost on the order of importance. You would be surprised at just how many people buy a synthetic stocked modern rifle then later decide that it's just too-ugly to show-off with a trophy and opt to get a real stock with some bling on it. But bling, or "tatoos and piercings" as you put it, isn't for everyone and that's why we offer the less-fancy but highly functional designs too. :drinks:

[oldhickory]

Most all of the original long rifles I've seen here in Pennsylvania have been rather plain, not what I would classify as a "Poor Boy", but lacking relief carvings, patch boxes, and inlays for the most part. Very slender rifles.

[northmn]

The true "poorboy" is a Pennyslvania Shimmel or "barn gun" Some were actually made with a strap trigger guard or none at all. Most build them now with a regular triggerguard. No entry thimble and two front pipes. They can actually look pretty good with the right stock wood. Were I to build my 25 squirrel gun over I would go for the shimmel instead of the poor boy Tennessee.

DP

[Maven]

There's a photo of a Schimmel barn rifle on Track of the Wolf's website > Flintlock Rifles (page 3). The rifle is AAI-045.

[oldhickory]

The true "poorboy" is a Pennyslvania Shimmel or "barn gun" Some were actually made with a strap trigger guard or none at all. Most build them now with a regular triggerguard. No entry thimble and two front pipes. They can actually look pretty good with the right stock wood. Were I to build my 25 squirrel gun over I would go for the shimmel instead of the poor boy Tennessee.

DP

Most also lack but plates.

[FL-Flinter]

Just as today, many people back "in period" made due with what they had and there were a lot of guns that didn't come from the "master's" shop. Just because someone decided to identify a particular gun as a "barn gun", "poorboy", "Lancaster", "Kentucky" or what have you, does not mean that every single person living "in period" got the memo about what was or was not allowed. I've seen quite a number of guns that were cobbled together using whatever was available ... some had parts from several different guns on them, some had home made parts, some lacked certain parts considered "necessary" today and others had parts/features that would be considered "inappropriate" today. There were also plenty of "period correct" (PC) guns around that did not originate in whole or part within the "colonies" such as those built in the Spanish and French territories as well as those that came from all over the world via traders and freebooters.

Point is, unless you're building a "specific replica" based on a known sample, there is no reason anyone should feel compelled to use or not use any given part(s). If the user wants to be true-to-form "PC" within a given time period, then the parts/style choices are limited to what was available at that time and in that region.

If the person wants a shooter and doesn't give a hoot about "PC" then by all means, have a gun built exactly the way they want it because the only person that needs to be pleased is the person handing over the cash. I've had some run-in's with the self-appointed "PC Police" and quite honestly, they have done nothing but made fools of themselves over nonsense. The attitude that no guns originated from anywhere else but from the limited number of known master builders within the British colonies is total horse pucky and a complete dis-service to the sport of muzzleloading caused purely by ignorance of fact. There have been many artifacts, including guns, of other than French/British/American origin found in/around north America - if the "found" stuff made it, how much other stuff also made it not only to our shores but also inland that isn't known about, or more importantly, isn't written about simply because it hasn't been "found" yet? What of the guns and other stuff that came by sea from northern Europe and Russia via long hunters trekking through Siberia into the great northwest?

This reply is not intended to flame anyone, it is intended to be informational. True historians cannot be narrow-minded as is often the case with the self-appointed PC Police who carefully select only those portions of history that advances their agenda. History is what it is and no matter how it has been corrupted by ignorance, political/personal agenda, opinions and omissions does not change the facts that have been proven by archaeological evidence. How many years has the "Clovis point" theory run rampant? To this day, despite the massive amount of archaeological evidence completely disproving the Clovis point theory, there are those who adamantly ignore the proven historical facts simply because the facts do not support their agenda. Archaeological evidence also proves that Leif Ericson had not only been to North America but set-up Norse settlements here 500 years prior to Cristoforo Colombo ... despite the proven facts, the ignorant still insist that the Italian, Cristoforo Colombo, born in Genoa Italy, was Spanish and "discovered" America all by himself. The fact that Cadiz was the largest sea-chart and land map depository centuries before the appearance of Colombo; and Colombo studied under other chartmakers including his own brother; and the fact that the "Westward Lands" were not only known but colonized by the Norse ... all the facts are vastly ignored in favor of maintaining the incorrect story of "Christopher Columbus of Spain and the ocean blue of 1492"! Ignorance of correct and complete historical fact in favor of agenda is why humans, as a whole, continue to make the same mistakes time and again then wonder why they get it jammed in their backsides. Ignorance of historical fact has lead to the eventual destruction of every single so-called "advanced society" that has ever existed since the dawn of time! [smilie=b:

The BS about "can't have" or "must have" applies ONLY to a reproduction of a specific gun built by a specific builder and DOES NOT make for a carved in stone rule on all guns ... Just because a cobbled together gun came out of a cabin three miles away from Dickert's shop does make it any more or less period correct than one built by Dickert. If you are looking to do a specific time period reenactment, then you are limited to choosing whatever is acceptable for the time and/or location just the same as if you want a correct copy of a "Dickert" then you must conform to what is appropriate for such. If you want a shooter and don't care about exact replication or PC and you favor an iron/silver mounted Lancaster, a silver/brass mounted Virginia, a Hussar musket with a rifled bore and sights, a poorboy style with stock carvings or whatever pleases you, by all means get what you want because the only one you need to please is you!

[waksupi]

FL-Flinter pretty much nails it. Build what YOU like. I personally have always really liked Poor Boys, and have had a couple over the years.
We are truly in the Second Golden Age of rifle building. Those being put out by serious hobby builders now, far surpass many of the old original rifles.

[Lead Fred]

http://muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/img/coverrifles.jpg

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab211/stallhorn/Lock.jpg

Note the lower rifle in the first picture.
It is a gussied up same model as my working mans rifle (lower pic)

Both of these were made from the same pattern, from the same supplier (listed below).

Iron VS brass, Tiger maple VS black walnut.

Are both PC correct, yes and no.

When muzzle loaders started to be reproduced, the only one that were copied were the rich folks, mantle guns, that were the only ones that were still around to copy.
The working guns were used, and repaired until they could not be repaired any more. Then they were used for spare parts for other guns.

I had the PC police tell me that my ramrod tubes dont match the Sheetz Virgina school my rifle was made from. To which I tell them. Well they came off another gun that was scrapped. Shuts them up every time.

The truth is it was the cast iron tubes that I liked, so I used them. They are 20 years older style then my rifle, so freakin what.


http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/

[hamour]

Head on over to muzzleloading forum for all the info you ever ever wanted om flintlocks. Some old timmers over there but they know their stuff.

Here is a link to their for sale section, poor boy 62 caliber grabs my attention also a smooth 62 rifle. Shooting roundballs size does matter inspite of what she might say!

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/pp-classifieds/showcat.php/cat/9

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/fusionbb.php

Have fun

[northmn]

I have plans for a Southern Rilfe circa 1760 or so that had a square breech barrel, obviously a fowler or musket lock and other spare parts and or parts from destroyed firearms. No nose cap or buttplate. Mostly I like to try to build a what likely could have been and favor early guns such that a trigger guard from an 1840 Bedford county would look rather silly on a gun intended to represent something from about 1770. However, more and more I tend to like the plainer working guns. By their nature of being a "barn" gun I doubt that a very high proportion of shimmels have survived.

Northmn

[FL-Flinter]

Northmn,

I'm almost in total agreement with you. I tend to like some bling but not too-much. I like crisp cut lock panels and molding/transitional lines where distinct surface changes are made. I think the modern mass-production guns, both ML & CF, have taken away the gun owner's appreciation for natural wood and quality craftsmanship. I had a saleman from Merkel hand me a SxS all dolled-up with engraving and gold inlays on the iron which didn't impress me at all because it was cluttered to the point of looking like a test block sitting next to the bench for a few years. Instead of having a nice hunting mural scene with just a mild unintrusive frame, it was just a mass of excessive scroll without definition. The thing that turned me off the most was the combination of the poly or poly-blend finish over sanded wood, lack of definition around the lock panels and plain old boring and borderless diamond checkering. He seemed annoyed that I wasn't awestruck by it and he got even more annoyed when he pressed for my opinion and I told him the truth about what I liked and what I didn't. Some people like it, some don't, "opinion" is what it is. Point being, there is nothing that turns me off quicker than sanded wood, it's just ugly because it takes away the natural look and feel of the wood. I scrape and burnish wood no matter if it's going on a flintlock or an SVD (Snayperskaya Vintovka Dragunova), sure it takes a lot more time and effort but it's worth it to those who appreciate the true beauty of wood.

I suppose there's some artist in me because I tend to use some color contrast as well and if it's fitting which is why I often prefer the bulk of the gun to be natural or near natural colored wood. Of course that's personal opinion but nothing turns me off quicker than a light colored wood like Magnolia or Pecan being stained dark (poop) brown. On the other hand, when a true blond wood is used, it leaves the door wide open for the option of adding some color highlights especially when a combination of incise & relief carvings and/or sharp transitional definitions are used. Depends on the styling though and often times it's best to just walk away from it for a few days to see how it looks when you come back to it, that's especially important when working with darker or reddish colored wood like Cherry, Walnut and Red Gum because unlike the true blond wood that allows for tempering, darker woods leave little to no room for error.

I've got nothing against "plain" be it in styling or figure in the wood. I can appreciate what I consider a poorboy or barn gun built with minimal furniture, no bling and straight-grained wood just as much as a tricked-out Jaeger build on full-curl wood. The "look" is proportional to the style and in my opinion, if one wants a barn gun with minimal furniture but dolled-up with carving, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that because just as scrimshaw started because of sailors "customizing" their own stuff, why would anyone think that the same was not done with those guns cobbled together by people who were not professional gun builders or by someone who bought a plain gun and did his/her own things to it by light of the campfire.

On the topic of non-PC, I had a client send me a box of parts and a 36" rifled oct-rnd barrel, he bought them individually based on what he liked. Chambers early Germanic flintlock, scroll trigger, Jaeger buttplate, sort of a French style trigger guard and a set of thimbles that were possibly Danish style. I made a rough drawing of what I thought it would kinda look like using the supplied parts, I had to put some curve in the wrist and roll it back up to the comb and he gave me the, "Go for it." I had to make a sideplate because the straight one he sent wouldn't work with the Germanic lock, it was definitely different looking. The client was thrilled with it but about a month later he called to tell me that when he took his purpose-built hunting gun to an informal ML shoot at a local club a couple of self-appointed PC Police began giving him a hard time about it not being this or that. He said the place got quiet and he waited for them to finish their rant before saying, "Screw you! It's built exactly the way I wanted it and if you don't like it, tough ****! I don't tell anyone else what to shoot and for dang sure no one else is going to tell me what I can or can't shoot and if you don't like that, go home and quit annoying people with your bull****!" He said there was about 25-30 people standing around when this incident happened and when he got done ripping the PC Police a new one, snickers and chuckles from the crowd turning into a round of applause as the PC Police walked away with their heads down like a couple of whipped puppies.

Obviously I'm not alone in thinking he did the right thing, I've been there too and unless it's an organized "traditional PC only" event, I think these self-appointed PC Police would be better serving to the entire black powder ML family by just keeping their mouths shut.

[waksupi]

Those PC police can be a hoot. I was dog soldier at a west nationals a few years ago, and a lady came up with a complaint. She was telling us that someone was wearing clothing that was totally out of time period.

As she was telling us this, she was smoking a filter cigarette, that she lit with a Bic lighter.

[northmn]

Most of the PC police watched too many B movies and base their opinions on them. A lot of them could not shoot for s##t and decided to become "experts" in how it hsould have been done. One individual I remember went to the National Western Rondy and was surprised at how stark the camps were of the American Mountain Men Society. Mostly a gun is best built from parts that are aeshetically compatable and somewhat correct. My point in mixing parts is that while one can do as they darn well like, using an 1840 part on a 1770 rifle if one is kind of into 1770 stuff does not mix too well. Also there is an issue of sale value to me. While a hunting beater can be anything, a gun that I may wish to sell someday will be more valuable if it is somewhat PC. I did build a couple of percussions out of parts left over from projects where I changed my mind etc. One of them I still own and use as a percussion because it does not have that high value we are talking about. Still have gotten a few compliments on it as it is definitely better than any production gun. Bulders ought to hang a picture of a production gun over their bench so that when they get discouraged over a screw up they can see a big one.

Northmn

[Maven]

You know, I've often suspected that the self-appointed (or should I say annointed?) period correct and politically correct police either have something to hide, have an overwhelming need to prove how "righteous" they are, or are just plain hypocrites.

[oldhickory]

It really doesn't matter what WE say, YOU'RE the one who is spending the money and it's going to be YOUR rifle...Get one you're going to be happy with for a long time, (you'll get more...Trust me!:smile:) Look go to the links provided, pick what you like and study up on it a little. As long as it has quality parts and is assembled properly it should be a good shooter, the rest is up to you.

There's many styles, or "schools" of the early flinters, I say take a good long look around, see what appeals to you and do some study on them, try to handle a few and make your decision from there. Personally I like the early Lancaster, York, Christian Springs, or Virginia style rifles, plain or carved maple stock, with or without patch box. I just like the wide early style but stocks and high combs of these rifles, but that's just me.:smile:

[waksupi]

The AMM can go to both extremes. I was invited to one of the members lodges one afternoon. Went inside, and there were aluminum camp chairs, a folding aluminum table, and Eddie Bauer sleeping bags kicked to the back.
The thing that really turned me off on them, a brigade ran their horses into camp, at over 10,000 feet, then sat the horses bs'ing and drinking. Flat land stock, that should have been walking at that altitude, and tended to immediately.
I've hunted with some of them that would starve to death in a supermarket, if they couldn't find the aisle with the can openers.

[FL-Flinter]

Waksupi,

Love the cigarette one! LOL Sounds like our politicians...

In all fairness based on my experience, the majority of rondy's are not run by the PC police. I've stopped at some with "public welcome" on the sign and indeed everyone was welcome, even my dogs - they always had a great time playing with the young'ins. There was a couple times when I wandered into the "period only" sections and the reminders were very polite, no hard time and no big deal even though it was my own fault for not paying attention to the signs.

The rondy's, pow wow's and reenactments have a lot to offer for both the participants and the public. The efforts are appreciated by history buffs and especially the history fanatics like myself because it's about as close as one can get to stepping into a time machine. I know we often complain about the annoying PC Police but while they can be PITA's, they are the exception and not the rule.

[northmn]

I quit the local Rondys because too many wanted to camp out and drink beer. Shooting was getting to be almost looked down upon. Most of the campers would state that if they shot as much as the shooters did or practiced as much they would be as good. They did not and they weren't. One of the problems when you have a open shooting match is that its the shooting that attracts folks, and then they may get into the recreation. You have to permit the blue jeans and baseball caps to get interest. We always let them use traditional production guns with adjustable sights. The rise in popularity of the zip guns may have created another issue. I know the local clubs do not like them. I had a couple of shirts and pants, even shoes that were period correct, but many of the PC police did not know that as they were cloth. I heard an interesting comment from a lady that has studied dress of the times. her claim was that, women that did not wear hats or bonnets were generally "working girls". How many know that?

Northmn