How do PP bullets achieve accuracy?

[Seth Hawkins]

If the purpose of the paper is to act as a "jacket" that keeps the lead from touching the rifling and causing lead fouling, how is spin applied to the bullet? Does the paper have sufficient purchase to spin the lead? I know it must work, or no one would have done it then or still be doing it now. I have read about some who create a bullet that when patched is bore diameter, and most make it groove diameter (or somewhere between the two). I guess I can accept the groove-sized PPB, but how does the bore-sized PPB work if nothing is large enough to engage the rifling?

[felix]

Soft lead; obturation. ... felix

[docone31]

Let me assure you, unless you, it does work.
I have not found anything but confetti after a shot.

[6.5 mike]

Seth, welcome to the forum. The bpcr shooters use the powder charge to upset the boolit into the thoat & riflings. Check the bpcr threads, I know they explain it much better than I can.
With smokeless, if your sizing your boolits to say .002 over groove, you can either start with a casting enough undersized to take up what you need, or just wrap over the boolit & size back to what you need. The paper will compress the lead down without tearing. I do alot of this. Give it a try, you might be suprized at the results.
Docone is right about the confette, if the wind is blowing toward you, you'll get covered if you shoot enough lol.

[Seth Hawkins]

Let me assure you, unless you, it does work.
I have not found anything but confetti after a shot.

I don't understand what you're saying. "unless you"... what?

[Seth Hawkins]

Soft lead; obturation. ... felix

So... if the lead expands to engage the rifling (that is what "obturation" is, right?), what's the point of paper patching? I thought the purpose, or at least part of the purpose, of the paper "jacket" is to prevent leading the barrel.

[Seth Hawkins]

Is the paper strong enough to withstand the friction applied to it when going down the barrel between the bullet and rifling - after the bullet has "obturated"?

[docone31]

Sorry about that. I have too many distractions going on.
If the paper is carefully wrapped, I prefer wet, it is amazingly strong! The paper becomes a strong barrier. It shrinks down to the casting to the point where the lube lands show through the paper.
I remember the first paper patched boolitt I made. It must have been the most exciting thing I had done in a while! When It dried, it was real hard.
I loaded them, shot them, and have done so ever since.

[oso]

6.5 mike, are you're sizing .002" over groove before or after patching? I like my cores a thou over bore. Sizing the patched core to groove works for me.

Seth, the paper is strong enough, the boolit spins and leading is avoided at higher velocities than you'd usually expect from a cast boolit. Feel free to try it yourself to see if we're kidding.

[Seth Hawkins]

What kind of paper are you using, and where do you get it? I've been Googling "cotton rag paper" in my search for some. From what I've read so far, I need to know what paper I plan to use and it's thickness, as well as the bore and groove dia.'s of my barrel, before I can spec out a die. I just bought a used Corbin press and need dies.

[Seth Hawkins]

Seth, the paper is strong enough, the boolit spins and leading is avoided at higher velocities that you'd expect from a cast boolit. Feel free to try it yourself to see if we're kidding.

I believe you. Honest! If it didn't work, it wouldn't have survived this long. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the physics of how it all works. The cotton rag paper must be very different from regular old paper.

[oso]

The paper I use is watermarked Strathmore Bond 25% Cotton. I found it among some old typewriter papers I had about.

[docone31]

I use lined notebook paper, or cheap computer printer paper.
They both work well.

[Seth Hawkins]

So, you're saying that you don't need any special "cotton rag" paper? Any paper, like regular notebook paper, will work fine?

If you're using paper of varying thicknesses, how are you achieving a consistent or desired final bullet diameter?

How did you decide on a diameter for the lead?

[giz189]

Buffalo Arms has Paper Patch Paper forsale if you want to try what Dave Gullo recommends. Or like Docone31 says try the computer paper or notebook, I have used that kind with good results also.
:bigsmyl2:

[montana_charlie]

Seth,
What kind of application are you contemplating.

Will it be a modern caliber and smokeless powder...or a black powder cartridge with a big bruiser to throw out of the muzzle?

There is a little bit of difference in technique between the two 'religions', even though the basic theology is the same.

So, tell us what you need to get done, and we can let the right 'bunch of missionaries' give you advice on how to get to heaven.

CM

[Seth Hawkins]

Sharps rifle, .45-70, strictly BP, shooting at paper & steel. I've owned the gun for a number of years, but haven't shot it yet. I've got everything I need to load for it, except the bullet. The swaging press gets me closer. I just need to order dies for the swaging press. This will allow me to adjust the weight. But I need to determine the diameter.

[docone31]

An example,
I cast for my .30cal. I size the casting to .308, then two wraps of paper. This gives me .318. From there, I size to .309. They grow to .310.
That is just an example of what works for me.
You might have to modify for your sharps. I believe, the .45, gets wrapped wet, let dry. If you are useing 16lb computer paper, or lined notebook paper, you will have your finished diameter.
That is what I have read.
Montana Charlie, and others have all kinds of neat rolling boards, techniques. They are great folks, and they can really help. I load for smokeless, they load for the real thing.
If you get a chance, click on some of their long range shots.
I am so far out of their league, I might never catch up.
T

[montana_charlie]

Ok, you need to decide if you want to shoot bullets that are patched-to-bore diameter, or bullets that are patched-to-groove diameter.

If you were shooting smokeless, you would choose patched to groove, but with BP you have the choice.

Most of the guys shooting PP with BP are using patched to bore bullets. They run about .451" in diameter after the paper has been wrapped on, so they start out at around .444 to .446" while naked.

The actual size depends on the thickness of your paper...if you find the paper first.
If you start off with a bullet, then you go searching for paper that works with it.

The 25% rag, 9-pound, onionskin paper sold by BACO will add 7 thousandths to your naked diameter.
If your bore is .450" and you want a patched-to diameter of .451" then BACO's paper would work real well with a .444" bullet.

I have some 25% rag, 9-pound, onionskin paper that is a different brand from what BACO sells. My paper adds (only) 5 thousandths to the bullet, so I would look for a .446" bullet.

Get the picture on patching to bore diameter?

There are some factors to look at when deciding whether to patch to bore or groove diameter.
First is the type of chamber in your rifle.
The modern SAMMI 45/70 chamber is not real PP-friendly. A lot of guys will patch to bore with tthat kind of chamber, but they have to overcome some of it's unfriendliness.
First thing is to use brass with extra thickness in the neck wall.

Norma basic brass, trimmed back to 45/70 length will have a wall of about .013 to .014".
This helps get the bullet out of the chamber and into the throat with minimal problems from the 45 degree step at the end of the chamber.
It's real important that your cases be fully as long as the depth of your chamber to help with a smooth transition past that chamber step.
And, finally, having the thicker neck wall also means you won't need quite so much crimp to grip the 'smallish' bullet so it doesn't fall out of the case.
That grip is important when you consider that only about two tenths of the bullet will be held by the brass.
The rest will be shoved up into the bore when you load the cartridge...and that is why the bullet is patched to bore diameter.

The old original chambers were shaped differently than today's SAMMI types. They were tighter, for one thing. The brass case, after it was fired, was just big enough to take the bore diameter patched bullet when being reloaded.
Also, that 45 degree step didn't exist. It was a much gentler transition that was less likely to 'damage' the bullet as it passed into the throat.

I started playing with PP about 18 months ago. Because I have a SAMMI-type chamber, I decided to patch to groove.
That allows me to use standard wall thickness in my cases, and the bullets fit well in the fired case mouth without crimping.
They also seat deeper in the case...almost the same depth as a grease grooved bullet.

If you decide to use groove diameter, you have the same kind of numbers to play with...they're just bigger.
My paper, which adds 5 thousandths to a bullet, makes a real nice fit in a fireformed case if I start with a .454" naked bullet.
I get the same kind of snug fit if I use BACO paper on a .452" bullet.

Here's a picture of some recently fired patched-to-groove bullets.
These are actually .452" bullets that were wrapped with my (thin) paper. Even though they were a loose-ish fit in the case mouth, they still bumped up nicely, and left the muzzle in perfect condition.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/CCWII.jpg

You can easily answer your original question about how they achieve accuracy by seeing how the rifling engraves them through the paper...while never actually allowing contact between lead and steel.

Now, you know the basic parameters available for you to choose from.
Ask your questions...

CM

[303Guy]

On the choice of paper, you get lined note-pad paper and lined note-pad paper. Some stick together when wet wrapped better than others. Then there is printer paper. The cheaper ones adheres to itself rather well when wet wrapped. Then there is dry wrapping. Printer paper works pretty well for this. The advantage to me is the ability to twist tighten the wrap and to re-align if I get it wrong. 'Crimping' the til is nice and easy with dry wrapping - no tearing of the soft, wet paper. ('Crimping' the tail can still be done with wet wrapping - just let the patch before 'crimping').

You asked about the paper being able to withstand the trip through the bore. Well, the trick is to get the patch to come off quickly on exiting the bore, not to get is to stay on in the bore - have a look at this pic.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/untitled-5.jpg

This is not good. The patch must come off at the muzzle and this one survived as a single wrap! Not enough obtuation and boolit to bore pressure.

[Lead pot]

Seth Hawkins

What Charlie laid out is a good start.
You said that you are getting equipment gathered up to swage your bullets, this is fine I do this and I have two presses and a bunch of dies for several calibers.
When you spend $500. for a set of dies and punches you want to make sure on what your final goal will be for bullet design and diameter or you will be waiting another year for a new set of dies being made and spend several hundred dollars again for a set of dies for that bullet that will fit better.
My self I cast more then I swage anymore because of the quality dies now made by custom mould makers and a lot less money.
I dont agree with Charlie on the bullet diameter of .446" for the Shiloh with no free bore in the throat. You will not be able to seat the cartridge with a bullet patched over bore by .002 or even .001 with certain ogives with out using a tool to cam that cartridge in unless you have a very strong thumb. And I sure as hell would not run a patched bullet through a sizing die. You cant compress lead, you can make it flow but it will displace the lead places you dont want it. That might work if you dont shoot farther than 100 yards, heck you can even use a hammer to beat the bullet down and still hit at 50 or 100 yards.

Find the paper you want to use. Decide what type of bullet ogive radius you want to shoot.
The alloy will not be to hard if you are using a swage press like the Walnut Hill or one of Dave Corbin's presses so most likely 1/20 alloy will be the hardest, maybe 1/18, so that will limit you with the type of ogive that will stand with the alloy hardness.
The Paper Mill has a good paper that runs .002-.0022 thick that is 25% cotton, I use a lot of it. You would want to stay away from papers that is shiny because it will have a high clay content.
Southworth paper is very good if you can find it, they had paper that ran from .0014 and up 100% cotton rag I have several boxes but you wont find it in the shopping malls like Office supply or Staple's you have to look in old Office Supply Stores down town they might have some in basements.
I personally would not have my die more than .4445, but you will have to decide that your self with what your intent will be.
Remember the S3 or S4 bullet noses will have to be swaged harder and you also will need a little larger diameter also on the bullet shank for a tighter fit so you will get good engraving. At least .002 over bore patched.
Think this over before investing in dies, you might want to go with a mould with the diameter you think you might want to use. You can always use the mould for a core mould so nothing is lost.

Good luck.

Kurt

[rhead]

Learn to do it the historically proven way first before you start branching into experimenting with different papers and sizes. Montana Charlie is quite knowledgeable on black powder paper patching.

As to understanding the physics of the operation, the answers to 99% of your questions will be apparent while you are wrapping the first bullet. You seem to be trying to "visualize" a process that you can do and look at.

[pdawg_shooter]

For smokeless I always size .001/.0015 over BORE diameter. I wrap with 2 wraps of 16# printer paper. This is the continuous feed paper with the holes down the sides. After drying I lube and run through a push through die .001/.003 larger than Groove diameter. I have had luck sizing as large as will fit the throat of the rifle. The paper will compress to fit the rifling no problem. Besides protecting the rifling from the lead the patch also supports the bullet against distortion from the acceleration in the barrel. I have taken a 311284 just over 3000fps in a 300RUM with MOA accuracy this way.

[Don McDowell]

Sharps rifle, .45-70, strictly BP, shooting at paper & steel. I've owned the gun for a number of years, but haven't shot it yet. I've got everything I need to load for it, except the bullet. The swaging press gets me closer. I just need to order dies for the swaging press. This will allow me to adjust the weight. But I need to determine the diameter.

If you want to figure out how to make that combination work the best , you'll do well to find everything you can find that Leadpot and Kenny Wasserburger have put out on various boards. Then ask them questions.These two fine men are a couple of the finest paper patch riflemen in the country right now.

[Seth Hawkins]

My rifle is a C. Sharps 1875, not a Shiloh. Not sure if that makes any difference...

[Seth Hawkins]

I'm reading everything I can get my hands on, but figure I gotta start doing it sooner or later to learn from my mistakes & gain experience. I'm just trying to find a good starting point, and figured having a good understanding of how it works is about as good a starting point as I could get. I just didn't think that paper would be that resilient.

Thanks for the info, guys.

[Don McDowell]

No it won't make that much difference.
You'll want to try various nose styles in .441 and .444 diameter, different papers and final patched diameter from .448 to .452 to find what your rifle likes the best.That doesn't take into account wads and such under the bullet.
In the meantime you may want to be sure and have a good supply of grease groove bullets on hand to go to the match with. Match winning paper patch loads takes some time and lots of testing.

[Don McDowell]

One other thing in the 45-70 you'll want to keep the bullet length under 1.4 inches. Anything over that is getting to long to stabilize at 45-70 velocity.

[6.5 mike]

oso, the .002 thing was an example, I should have stated that better. I have found, with my rifles, .0015 to .002 over groove works very well for me, so far.
Being frugal ( read cheap) I use lee moulds knowing most drop small, so I wrap to size from there. I am working on a lee sizer so I can size first, then wrap just because I haven't tried that yet. All of this is with smokeless.
Seth, if you check the archives, bottom of opening page, you'll see patching with just about any type of paper, tin foil, teflon tape, ect. Some works, some doesn't.
I use tracing paper (wally world), lined notebook paper ($ store), & printer paper ( office at work). All used to reach a given diameter, or over it & size back to what I need. Hope this helps.
If you plan to use bp, MC can give you a world of good info. He is one of the ones I refered to in my first answer. I haven't tried it in my sharps yet, but have read all I can about it.

[303Guy]

I have taken a 311284 just over 3000fps in a 300RUM with MOA accuracy this way. Holy .... umm .... moly! (Another way of saying "That's astounding!")

How heavy is that boolit?

Besides protecting the rifling from the lead the patch also supports the bullet against distortion from the acceleration in the barrel.This has become my thinking too.

[1874Sharps]

Seth,

I think you will find the pursuit of paper patched boolits fascinating and rewarding. The technology was described in patents going all the way back to 1870 when some shooter had the bright idea to try a wrap or two of paper around a bollit (the light bulb did not, however, go on over his head, as the light bulb had yet to be invented). This is still a good technology today, as many shooters here can attest, in both BP and smokeless. Some of the great BPCR target shooters will use patched boolits that are bore size and can be inserted deep into the bore past the leade, almost like the breech seating method. The boolit is held in the case by the smallest amount. Others, like myself, find for mid range shooting and hunting, a boolit that is either slightly over bore diameter (but well under groove diameter) so that it is seated a bit deeper in the case works well. Or, a tapered boolit that patches to under bore diameter at the nose and over bore diameter at the base. There are more ways than one to skin the cat.

[RMulhern]

So... if the lead expands to engage the rifling (that is what "obturation" is, right?), what's the point of paper patching? I thought the purpose, or at least part of the purpose, of the paper "jacket" is to prevent leading the barrel.

Seth

"So... if the lead expands to engage the rifling (that is what "obturation" is, right?)"

No!! Obturation means to....SEAL!! The bullet UPSETS...thereby causing obturation which is necessary to prevent 'gas cutting' of the bullet!!

[EDK]

LOADING & SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLETS, A BEGINNERS GUIDE by Randolph Wright...available from Shiloh Sharps, Buffalo Arms, etc. My favorite; the author is a professional illustrator.

THE PAPER JACKET by Paul Matthers...Wolfe Publishing or ? Reprinted classic.

Orville Loomer's booklet...from Shiloh Sharps. Excellent...he posts on shiloh rifle.com/forums. Nice guy and eager to share his knowledge.

Lots of info at shilo web site or here.

:cbpour::redneck:

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Lead Pot,

I use a .446 bullet with Seth Cole 8# paper in a standard Shiloh Chamber, have no issues with it at all.

1.336 inch Group in the 5@200 Shots in the upper 90's at long range also.

Kenny W

[Lead pot]

Yes Kenny I know you done well with that .446 bullet. How thick is that Seth Cole #8 paper you used?
I cant use a .446 diameter in my .45/90 with out giving up a lot of case in the Shiloh but the other .45/90 I have with the 5 degree tapered throat it does quite well.

Kurt

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt,

paper is about .0015 wet patched its perfect in all my 45 cal Shilohs. Except Dora with it's Heavy barrel is a tad too tight my .444 diam bullet is the one I go to for it.

Kenny W
The Lunger