1911 groups..

[dk17hmr]

I was out shooting today trying to make a load for my Springfield 1911-A1 with j-word hollow points. I am getting a 4" group at 15 yards should I be happy or disappointed? Seems every bullet I run through this gun at any velocity I get a 4" group cant shrink it and it rarely goes bigger (unless double tapping or shooting fast). I have tried seating different lengths, shooting below starting load all the way up through and past max seems no matter what 4" group is all I get.

I did have a group that was smaller a few weeks ago with my cast bullets that I had not sized. They were all touching for two runs but I would get a jam ever other bullet.

Note groups are 3-5 rounds not a whole mag full and I shoot laying down to get the best rest I can and have the same sight pic every time without moving all over the target.

Either my gun is screwed up or im just thinkin like I do with my varmint rifles where Im not happy until I can have every bullet in the same hole.
Do I have something going on with my .45?
DK

[StarMetal]

It depends on the gun. If it's an old worn out standard military model, then no. If it's the newer breed, esp something high dollar, then yes. What size you sizing your bullets too? That is when you ge the bad groups?

Joe

[dk17hmr]

Its kinda a newer model I dont know how old it is I bought it used from a LEO
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/dk17hmr/DSCF0018.jpg
I am sizing them to .452 with a Lee Sizer. Using tumble lube.

Dk

[Bucks Owin]

I would think it should do a "little" better than that...

Is there a lot of wear (slop) in the barrel bushing? Maybe the former owner has used it extensively and it may need an "overhaul"....

It looks like it's kinda "experienced",

Dennis

[slughammer]

Mechanical accuracy depends a bunch on how well the barrel fits the slide. If you tear the gun down and just install the barrel and bushing into the slide, you can get a pretty good idea of fit. If the barrel hood is too short and too narrow and the barrel is loose to the bushing and/or the bushing loose to the slide it will all effect mechanical accuracy. The other part is vertical fit of the barrel lugs to the slide stop shank. The 1911 book by Kunhausen is very good at explaining all of this.

4" at 15yards. You decide if it is accurate enough for your purposes. I test mine at 25 yards with 10 shot groups. My 45acp will do 1.5" consistently. My 9mm will do better. BOTH have fitted aftermarket barrels; one BarSto, one Nowlin. The 45 used to do better with the welded SA barrel, but after 10K rounds the weld cracked. The BarSto was fitted just as well; but does 1.5" day in, day out. 3 shots into a small group one time is just a fluke.

When I test I put the dust cover right on top of the sand bag, and never let the magazine contact the bench.

[Char-Gar]

A good 1911 that is solid and tight should give at least 2.5" 25 yard groups. A little tweaking and you can shrink that to 2". rattletrap military will give you about 4" at 25 yards.

I bought a new 1911A1 GI Springfield about a year ago. It would do no better than your pistol. I installed a good Colt Commercial barrel and the groups cut in half.

I swaped it off (after I swaped the barrel back) for a Norinco 1911A1 and it will shoot right along with my Colt Govt. Model and that is 2" at 25 yards. I picked up another Norinco and it will do the same.

All of this is to say, my experience with the Springfield has not been steller, albeit limited to just one pistol.

[boogerred]

run of the mill 1911s have a lot of built in slop that affects accuracy.your gun appears to have sights,trigger,magwell,grip safety,and ambi-safety installed.all good add-ons but they dont help accuracy.those guns were not designed to be target shooters.they were made to shoot em fast and shoot em all which they do very well.unless you do a lot of top end work(slide,barrel bushing,barrel,locking lugs,hood,link & pin) or buy a $1500+ gun youll have 3-4" groups.my 1991 has several doodads and it only does 3-4" at 25yds but it eats all my reloads with jktd or cast and all factory ammo i put in it.its never failed me yet.RELIABILITY is what these guns are made for. enjoy it,youll learn to love it.

[Blackwater]

I'm with Chargar on the 2-2.5" @ 25 std. for a good 1911. A buddy recently purchased a 5" SS Springfield .45, and it's a real shooter. He's actually gotten some 1" groups at 20 yds. with it, but not with every load - only ones the gun likes. I've seen all sorts of reports on Springfield's .45's. Some stellar, like my buddy's, and some not so hot. I think it depends on which model you buy, and sometimes with how lucky you are on the particular day you're buying??? It's all about how the barrel and slide fit, and the bushing, and how the slide fits the frame. First thing I'd do is try something cheap, like a set of barrel links. That MAY fix the accuracy issue to your liking, but I'd also probably spring for a match bushing and have it fitted to the gun. However, if the slide to frame fit is too loose, I'd guess it's going to need some gunsmith to fit and accurize it if you really want it to shoot like most decent shots want their guns to do. Either that or trade it for one that's fitted tighter from the git-go. Just my 2 cents' worth.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I would also suggest having somebody else shoot the gun from the bench and see if there's a possibility of "shooter error". As Chargar stated, even a pretty poor example of a 1911 should stay in 4" at 25 yards with decent ammo.

[StarMetal]

Don't forget the gentleman said his 1911 was shooting 4 inches at 15 yards, not 25.

Joe

[KYCaster]

Is that an alloy frame?

Jerry

[dk17hmr]

Yes alloy frame. It shoots good info right now for me with a 4" at 15 yards. Been working 14 hour days so there isnt much time to shoot anyways. Once I get some coin built back up Ill start tinkerin with it....someone explain barrel link to me how do that effect accurracy.

Another thing I was pondering today is maybe the sights arent built for accuracy being Novak style 3 dot. I havent figured out how to adjust them up because I hit 2 inches low no matter what range from 3 out to 20 yards, can you adjust them up?

DK

[slughammer]

My 45 shot 8" at 25 yards with the factory barrel.

The 9mm could hit the paper at 25 (most of the time)
after the factory replaced the barrel (at their expense) it would shoot 6" at 25.

I have been the lucky recipient of (2) 1911's that were poor examples. It took fitted custom barrels to cure their ills.

[boogerred]

the link is the figure "8" part that swings under the barrel when you take it apart.as far as those novak sites being adjusted the only way to do it is to decrease velocity or add bullet weight or adjust both until you find the "right"spot..you can also file the front sight down which i wont do because the sight is so short anyway.bullet weight and powder charge is the best way to get it to shoot right.slow,heavy bullets shoot higher than fast,light bullets in a pistol.

[KYCaster]

Dk: On a gun that shows that much wear on the frame and grips, I would expect to see more wear on the slide. (don't know if that means anything or not)
To check barrel/link fit, load some dummy rounds (no powder, primer). With slide locked back, seat the mag with dummy rounds, release the slide with the slide stop, put your thumb on the barrel in the ejection port and push down. If you can feel the barrel move then your link/lugs/slide stop need attention.
With the gun disassembled, put the bushing in the slide and try to move it, up/down, side-to-side, if you can feel it move, it's too loose. Put the bushing onto the muzzle of the barrel. If you can move it up/down, side-to-side, its too loose. The back of the bushing will rock up and down some, it needs clearance for the barrel to drop out of battery, but the front of the bushing should be a close fit on the barrel.
Put the slide on the frame. Line them up like they would be in battery. Grip the frame and pull on the slide, up/down, side-to-side, rock it back and forth. You need some play, but five thou or so is more than necessary.
The Novak sights......there's no adjustment. If it were mine, I'd paint the dots black and file down the front sight till it hit where I wanted it to.
Your gun has obviously been set up for competition, but I don't know what style. If IPSC or IDPA, I would expect to see some holster wear on the slide. If bullseye, I wouldn't expect to see the mag well, ambi safety or Novak sights.
I don't know if this helps any, just my observations.

Good luck
Jerry

[shooter2]

Without seeing the gun it's hard to say how good it should do. Certainly the 1911design is capable of doing better. I have two Kimbers that will shoot two magazines (14 shots) into 3" to 3.5" at 25 yards from a rest. These are factory guns that have not been modified in any way. I have a customized Colt 1911 (not A1), that once shot two magazines into less than 1.7" at 25 yards also from a rest with target loads. The accuracy you get is dependent on the factors mentioned here. Also, tight groups are very dependent on consistently holding the gun the same shot to shot.

[dk17hmr]

I bought the pistol from a cop who carried it as a duty weapon. He set it up with all the extras to make to run good. As for the sights its a 3 dot night sight set up which I dont want to paint over.

Its all holster wear maybe next year after I get it shootin as good as I want, Im goign to gunkote the frame as well as some handi rifle barrels I have.

Ill check out all the stuff said when I get some time this weekend maybe I can get it figured out with out pay $100 for a new barrel.

Thanks guys, Ill keep ya'll informed.

DK

[robertbank]

From an accuarcy point of view I have four guns that are notable.

My STI Trojan in 9MM at 15 yards from a rest will cover a quarter as will my Para in .45acp, Tanfoglio in 9MM and a Norinco 5" .45acp. The latter with a match grade barrel and Heinie sights. The other guns are box stock.

Beyond 15 yards my eyes take over and groups open up but not because of the gun but rather my ability to hold on open sights.

Two handed standing at 15 yards put 8 rounds in a 1" circle with two flyers adding 1/2" to the set on either side of the "hole".

In the absence of any other information it sounds like you could try getting a better match with barrel & bushing.

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

Be advised that even some so called drop-in match barrel may require some fitting. If you're not familiar with this or uncomfortable doing it, I'd suggest taking it to a smith that does it.

Joe

[Lloyd Smale]

first thing id ditch is the tumble lube lee bullets. Ive had no luck whatsoever with tumble lubed bullets in the 1911s Try a good bullet like the h&g 200 swc or the lyman 200 swc sized to 452 and for a starting load try 4 grains of bullseye. That load will shoot good in most guns. Ill probably get flamed for this but to me the tumble lubed bullets are fine for plinking but when it gets down to real accuracy ive had little luck in any of my guns with them. Ive got a few guns that will shoot them well but ive never had a gun that shot its best with a tumble lubed design.

[redneckdan]

Ive got a few guns that will shoot them well but ive never had a gun that shot its best with a tumble lubed design.

You are right. The 230RN TL shoots okay in my 1911 MIL-SPEC, I use it for practice and IDPA competition. But when I shoot bullseye out come the RCBS 201 SWCs, a copy of the HG SWC. These are a pain because I have to spread the lube on by hand then scrap off the excess, don't even have a lee sizer yet. Thats why I like tumble lube, pure production rate.

[McLintock]

As has been pointed out above, most likely the critical "fit" areas for accuracy are worn out, like the barrel/bushing fit, slide/frame fit and the barrel hood/slide fit. LEO's can do a lot of practicing and wear one out, particularly if it has an alloy frame. With the alloy frame you can't tighten up the slide/frame fit like with a steel frame, but you can do a lot to help it by tightening up the barrel/slide/bushing fit. And a longer link will help the slide/frame some also. The standard for 1911's usually was 2" or under at 25 yards for a really good shooting one and you could probably get it to do this again with some work and a little cash investment. If it still has a good trigger pull, sights, grips and a few other additions it would be worth it to put a new barrel, bushing and link in it for a couple hundred dollars.
McLintock

[dk17hmr]

My college room mate came up this weekend to shoot and go to my brothers Quad race and we put 100 rounds through my 1911. I have been shooting 200 grain spear Factory Cast bullets with 4.2gr of Bullseye. It functions with no hang ups. We were shooting steel targets about 4" wide and 10" tall at 15 yards and we werent missing many.
I dont know been off work for a week waiting on materials to finish up this house we are doin, so money isnt comin in very fast. Plus on I have to start savin up to get some stuff I need for my Bear Hunt this year. So, no new barrel for a while yet.

DK

[High Desert Hunter]

http://gallery.sixshootercommunity.org/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&***=4

http://gallery.sixshootercommunity.org/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&***=1

I am really happy with mine, I swapped a Super Redhawk in 454 for my loaded model. I cast and shoot thousands of these 200gr SWC bullets, and as I bought 8# of unique last year, it is the only powder I have tried to date, when I run out, I'll probably try more Unique, it just works for me in everything I shoot.

Dave

[StarMetal]

Unique is, was, and will always be one of my favorite powders.

Joe

[Bucks Owin]

Unique is, was, and will always be one of my favorite powders.

Joe


Me too if I had to choose only one handgun powder...

FWIW,

Dennis

[robertbank]

231 must be in there as well. Works well in 9MM, 38spl, .45acp and .45LC

Take care

[StarMetal]

Yeah Bob, I use 231 too, good powder, versatile, and burns pretty clean.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Unique is, was, and will always be one of my favorite powders.

Joe

Me too! I also shoot lots of Bullseye. Not really sure what the difference "burning clean" makes as I always clean the guns anyways. Takes the same amount of cleaning with the clean burners as with the "dirty" powders. I used quite a bit of 231 in years past for .38 target loads but went back to BE.

Larry Gibson

[Four Fingers of Death]

You are right. The 230RN TL shoots okay in my 1911 MIL-SPEC, I use it for practice and IDPA competition. But when I shoot bullseye out come the RCBS 201 SWCs, a copy of the HG SWC. These are a pain because I have to spread the lube on by hand then scrap off the excess, don't even have a lee sizer yet. Thats why I like tumble lube, pure production rate.

Why not try TL on these? I use it on all sorts of boolits and it seems to work ok. If you look at the Lee flyers and catalogues you see the bullet being used is a convential design, not a TL. At the risk of repeating myself, I always try unsized, TL'd first to see if it works. If it does, I leave it at that. Less work, more play. Mick.