Shooting Hornady Leverevolution ammo

[burfurd]

Has anyone done any modifications to their Marlin lever magazine to allow the Hornady Leverevolution ammo to be used? My .444 and .45-70 both jam when trying to feed. I know Marlin can correct the problem but just don't want to go through the hassle of mailing the firearms. Thought I should be able to do the modification myself if not too complicated.

burfurd

[Lead Fred]

I thought it was just the follower you have to change.

Thats an easy fit, buy the follower, and pull the mag spring & follower, and replace it.

Im glad mine didnt have that problem. All I use is +FTX and cast.

[rob45]

I thought it was just the follower you have to change.

Thats an easy fit, buy the follower, and pull the mag spring & follower, and replace it.

Im glad mine didnt have that problem. All I use is +FTX and cast.

+1

That is what I have heard as well, although I do not use the Hornady ammo.

[rayzer]

My buddy had problems loading his gun with lever revolution ammo. He said that He really had to cycle the action verey fast and hard. He also told me that the cases for the .45-70 lever revolution ammo are shorter than standard ammo. does anyone know if they can be reloaded, and the bullets crimped in place?

sorry for the hijack.

[rob45]

He also told me that the cases for the .45-70 lever revolution ammo are shorter than standard ammo. does anyone know if they can be reloaded, and the bullets crimped in place?

Your friend is correct; the LEV brass is shorter; at least what I have come across. That is one of the reasons I do not like to use it. My brass was .060" shorter than standard, and that is definitely something to consider when reloading.

The LEV (FTX) bullet has a more aerodynamic nose than the typical flatpoint bullet. The tradeoff is that the different nose requires the crimp groove to be set back farther on the bullet.
Hornady still has to keep the cartridge OAL within SAAMI spec to feed in the leverguns. With the new (more rearward) crimp location, the only way to accomplish this is to make the brass shorter.



The shorter LEV brass can be reloaded, but it is best used with the FTX bullet. Using the shorter brass with a "standard" bullet could possibly introduce the problems below.

1. Any time the brass is shorter than normal, case capacity is reduced (assuming same seating depth). Reduced case capacity means increased pressures. Your standard load data will list the case length and type of bullet used, giving an idea of how much of the bullet is inside the case. So if you use the LEV brass with a bullet that has a "standard" crimp location, you have reduced the case capacity, and standard load data no longer applies. Usually this will only matter when making loads near the high side, but it is something to be aware of.
Most definitely reinforces the old adage of beginning with starting loads.

2. If using the LEV brass with a "standard" bullet and crimp location, the cartridge OAL will be shorter. For the most part, we have a flexible window concerning the OAL that our guns feed. But I have a couple of guns that are very "finicky"; they seem to have a narrower window that will not tolerate an OAL much shorter (or longer). This is an individual gun preference, and the only thing we can do is try different lengths in our guns to see what they like.

3. Once again, if you take a shorter piece of brass and crimp a "standard" bullet in the crimp groove, you end up with a shorter cartridge. The result is that you have effectively increased the freebore. The trend in modern bullet design has been to create nose profiles which more effectively fill the chamber for purposes of accuracy. Increasing the freebore goes against the original design intentions of your bullet.

4. It is preferable to have brass long enough to fill the chamber yet provide minimum clearance. The goal is to minimize powder fouling in the chamber. Using shorter brass will increase the fouling in the chamber, thereby necessitating more frequent cleaning before switching back to standard-length brass.
Some common examples of using "short" brass:
22 shorts in a 22LR
38 Special in the 357 Magnum
44 Special in the 44 Magnum
480 Ruger in the 475 Linebaugh
Anyone shooting a bunch of the shorter rounds will probably discover that a thorough cleaning of the chamber is usually necessary before switching back to the longer cartridge, as the increased carbon fouling in the chamber usually makes chambering the longer brass more difficult, if not impossible.
Some powders burn "cleaner" than others, and some guns have more generous chambers than others, so those types of differences have an impact on why one person may (or may not) need to clean more often than another person.


To overcome points 1-3 above, you could easily seat a standard bullet further out and crimp in a location other than the crimp groove, thereby permitting proper OAL; this is where a custom Lee Factory Crimp Die really shines.
Also, there are a lot of people out there who reload with the 325 FTX that already has the different crimp location, so their LEV brass is already set up for them.
But even though the seating depth problems are overcome, you still have to contend with point 4; after all, your gun's chamber was designed to use longer brass.

So can you reload the LEV brass (with "standard" bullets)? Yep. Lots of people do it and report good results. But everyone has different standards in their reloading practice, and everyone's gun is different.
I take pride in my reloading, so I strive to accomplish more than "what works". I already have enough reloading variables to figure out, such as type of powder, powder charge, proper alloy, etc. I see no reason to add another potential problem to the mix.

I do not reload the 325 FTX, and I have not purchased the factory LEV ammo since it first hit the market, so my problems may be based upon outdated design/dimensions. Maybe Hornady has figured out how to do it without making the brass shorter, but I'm not counting on it. I fail to see how it is physically possible.

In conclusion, best reloading of the LEV brass will be accomplished by either using the FTX bullet or seating your standard bullet further out and crimping in a different location. Whichever method you choose, your chamber will most likely still foul up quicker, thereby increasing the potential for problems when you go back to the longer, standard brass. So be sure to keep up on your cleaning schedule.

[jlchucker]

Try using a Ranchdog boolit or a boolit cast from an RCBS mold. They seem to work fine in my Marlin and have for years. With due respect to you guys offering suggestions, this seems like an awful lot of modification that needs to be done to a gun in order to shoot a certain condom-style bullet. From what it sounds like--replacing followers, etc., one could end up with a gun that's dedicated to this particular bullet only.

[rayzer]

Thank you rob45 for confirming, that the Hornady lever revolution ammo uses shorter cases than normal. Now I will not buy any of that stuff. I am waiting on 2 NOE molds. a 350 gr. and a 425 gr. ranchdog style molds. after I get them, there will be NO more jacketed rounds going through my .45-70!

[rob45]

From what it sounds like--replacing followers, etc., one could end up with a gun that's dedicated to this particular bullet only.

Actually, the gun would not be solely dedicated to the use of the LEVERevolution ammo (or the FTX bullet if reloading it).

As I mentioned in my post above, I do not use the Hornady ammo (always reload my own) nor do I use the FTX bullet when reloading (always cast my own).
My dealer convinced me to purchase a couple of boxes when it first came out, and I have assisted others who do use it on a regular basis.


To date, I can only think of two modifications needed for proper function of the LEVERevolution ammo/ FTX bullet. One is bullet-related; the other is brass/gun-related.
Neither modification dedicates your gun solely to the Hornady products.

The problem with the FTX bullet
Use of this bullet requires replacing (or modifying) the magazine follower if you have an older gun. The newer Marlins should have the updated follower in them already.
The difference in the followers (old vs. new) is that the new follower has a slightly concave surface, while the contact surface on the old ones were flat.
The concave surface allows the cartridge to "come to center". Upon going through the loading gate, the cartridge is at a slight angle as it contacts the follower. Upon full insertion into the magazine, the cartridge is supposed to become nearly parallel with the axis of the action, but the point on the FTX bullet tends to keep the cartridge "cockeyed", and if the initial cartridge (against the follower) is angled, then succeeding rounds behind it also tend to become angled. These slightly angled cartridges cause problems upon exit from the magazine, so the answer to the problem is to put a convex surface on the follower, thereby allowing that initial cartridge to "straighten up".
As I mentioned above, newer Marlins should have this follower in them. If not, a replacement follower starts at around $8. Or Marlin may update it for free, but they probably won't cover shipping. Or somebody handy with tools can modify the existing (flat) follower.


The brass problem (with the LEVERevolution ammo)
As I mentioned in a previous post, I detest the LEV brass because the shorter length may cause complications during reloading.
But there is another issue with that brass, too. For some reason, the Hornady brass seems to have more meat around the rim than the other brands, although it is still "within specs". This may cause a problem when the rim comes into contact with the extractor. This problem is most prevalent with new/little-used guns because the extractor assembly has not had a chance to "break in". Your gun may or may not have this problem; you simply have to check and see, then act accordingly.

The problem is this- The rim of the cartridge does not slide fully under the extractor. So now you're trying to chamber the cartridge at an angle instead of the straight line intended. Chambering at an angle requires considerably more force on the lever, if the action will even close at all. Some people find that "double-clutching" the lever may work, but that is not something I want to resort to with any of my guns!
Some people take a file to the extractor to provide the clearance, but that is usually not necessary. I find that putting a slight bend in the extractor is a better option because you don't even have to take the gun apart, you simply put a screwdriver under the extractor and exert a little pressure.
If you use the "file method", you have to disassemble the bolt, plus you can always file off too much (requiring a new extractor). Whereas if you use the "bend method" and bend too far then you can always bend it back.
The extractor is spring-loaded, so doing this modification does not commit you to the different brass. It simply allows the brass to fully engage the extractor and get in that straight line necessary for proper chambering.
My gun skills may be OK, but my computer literacy skills are very lacking- meaning I do not know how to post pictures here. So I did a search and found this link where the guy shows exactly what I'm talking about:
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,51618.0.html


So to all current posters involved in this thread:

burfurd,
Here are the answers concerning your modifications. Depending upon your gun, you may not even need to do them, but if you do, you can easily do them yourself at little or no cost.
If you have difficulties that these two modifications do not address, then the problem is the gun, not the ammo.

rayzer,
Tell your buddy about the simple extractor modification; it will make him a happy camper to know that he doesn't have to break the lever anymore.
Concerning the Hornady ammo, I'm sure it's great; I simply cannot get past the short brass issue. If I cannot reload the brass without considerable complication, then it's not worth buying the ammo.
BTW, yer gonna love those molds you have on order!:Fire:

jlchucker,
I shoot over 200 rounds a week through my lever actions, and about half of those are with the Ranch Dog designs. So I certainly see what you're saying about proven designs.
Still, there are many who do not (yet) feel comfortable hunting with their own cast boolits. I'm obviously not one of them, but rest assured that these simple fixes to make the Hornady products work will not tie up the gun to using only those products.



Good Luck.

[corvette8n]

Never had a problem in my Marlin 45-70 with factory Leverrevolution, have yet to reload with Hornady cases. I also have shot Leverrevolution in my Puma 1892 clone in .45 Colt.

[burfurd]

Thanks Rob45....That is what I was looking for. I have a box or 2 of the Leverevolutions and just wanted the gun to shoot them ok. I do have a Ranch Dog mold and will be using it primarily.....Just want the gun to feed them if I decided to shoot them. Bad to hear about the shorter brass, first I have heard about that.

burfurd