.38Spl with 250gr boolit for Major Factor

[Whistler]

A while ago two of my friends and I decided to go into the revolver division in IPSC competition. I bought the S&W 625 and started casting .452 boolits for it.

They both have a .38spl S&W K-frame each and wanted to shoot "Major" factor too.

You get the factor like this:
(boolit weight x velocity)/1000 = factor

For my 230gr boolit I go:
(230x780fps)/1000 = 180 factor

Major factor is 170, so you can see I've got som margin.

As you can see by calculating, you really win on having a heavy projectile.
So my friend started experimenting with a 200gr copper plated bullet that is readily available. He got it into major pushing it to 850fps, but started getting signs of high pressure. The Fed 100 primers started to flatten and the cases were hard to extract.

I started doing my own calculations on reaching Major in a .38Spl and got to thinking about the 35 calibre rifle bullets. Some googling, and then I had found the RCBS 250gr FN in .358.

Some Quickload calculation gave that using 4.6gr of Vihtavuori N105 I can push this projectile to 695fps, thus reaching factor 174 - just above Major - with the pressure barely exceeding 14100psi!

What I'm thinking about now is how this would affect the revolver; will the frame and it's internal clockwork hold up to the pounding of sending this boolit away? The pressures are low, the SAAMI max is 17000psi, so that wouldn't be a problem, but I guess there is more to it than just pressure...

I saw that Glen E. Fryxell wrote an article on the Lyman 358627 220gr SWC which specifies some loads on such a heavy boolit in .38Spl.
The article is here: http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm

[GabbyM]

Cartridge overall length of RCBS 250-FN will not fit in a K frame or any other revolver.

The 195 grain Lyman #358430 is probably the best bet for heavy 38 special.

[dakotashooter2]

I am not an ISPC shooter but here is what I have gleaned from my reading over the years.

First... a 250 gr bullet is gonna have to be seated pretty deep and take a lot of case capacity to get it to fit the chambers if it will fit at all. Do your calculations account for that with your pressures and velocity. With the bullet seated that deep you may also encounter problems with bulge low in the case effecting loadin and re-loads.

Second... You are going to want to leave yourself with a decent amount of margin for the power factor. With only a 4 margin, a minor change in any of the components such as a change in powder lot could easily drop you out of major. You are also not accounting for standard deviation of your loads. The 695 FPS better be on the low side. A velocity deviation of 16 FPS (very possible in a revolver) would drop you out.

Third.. often heavy bullet means heavier recoil even with a low power load. Remember the goal is to try to keep recoil down but still make major.

[Willbird]

Did you do a quickload calculation on his 200 grain loadings ?? I ask because the pressure signs you speak of would indicate a very high pressure, like what 40,000 or higher PSI ? I'm also curious what powder he was using, it sounds like he was using a powder way too fast for what he was trying to do.

Bill

[Whistler]

GabbyM & dakotashooter2: My calculations were made with the standard OAL of .38Spl, so yes the bullet is seated really deep. The load I proposed was a theoretical load that can perhaps be used as a starter for developing a secure major load. :)

The whole thing is really only to see if it can be done. If it was meant to be optimal for competition they would have bought a 625 each (as I did ;)).

Willbird: His calculations landed pressures around 18 000 psi with N105.

[Willbird]

There is no way 18,000 PSI should do that to the brass and the primers. Those same primers are used in pistol loads a lot hotter than that, 40,000 plus in some cases. And people load 38 brass up in 357's...have been doing so since before the 357 existed actually in their 38/44's.

Something is amiss somewhere, because 38 +p loads go past 18,000 in Hogdon data.

[beagle]

I don't know. From shooting 358430s and 35875s in .38 cases the primers get pretty flat and the velocity isn't anything to brag about.

I can see what you're doing and hope you succeed but I'm pessimistic.

You'll have to get all the length you can and then sneak up on your max load using a chrony.

Ought to be an interesting challenge./beagle

[bigdog454]

Big bullets, big bore.

I would think that using 35 cal riflel bullets could cause 2 problems!
1. they may have a tougher jacket raising pressure.
2. To get the OAL right you will have to seat the bullet deeper, which can cause a higher pressure.

you could try a cast lead bullet and reduce effect #1, but I would think that a bigger bore sould be the best and safest solution.

[Whistler]

bigdog454: You really haven't read the thread at all, have you? ;)
I specifically wrote that I'd use a cast lead boolit and what pressure I got when seating the bullet to the standard .38Spl OAL.

Willbird & beagle: The Federal 100 primers flatten from my normal .357Mag loads that aren't really hot at all, but the hard-to-extract cases is a sign as sure as any that the cylinder might take damage. Or am I being overly cautious? I haven't tested any of this yet, only calculated and theorized on my friend's experiences.

Any thoughts on the article Glen E. Fryxell wrote? He used almost as heavy bullets that were originally intended for .35 calibre rifles.

[Bass Ackward]

In order to trust QUICKLOAD, you must be sure that what velocity is predicted is actually obtained. Once you verify that by chronograph, then you can have much more confidence in the pressure predictions producing subsequent load calculations.

Once this is done, I have never seen predicted velocity vary by more than 50 fps. But accepting general data programmed can have you thousands of psi off the mark either way.

Garbage in, garbage out.

[Landric]

I've had good luck making major using the 200 grain Lyman 358430 and Alliant 2400 without any pressure signs, I'll try and post some data later.

[Whistler]

Bass Ackward: Of course, that is why it is a theoretical load only, and that is why I suggested it as a starting load to work up from.

Landric: That would be awesome! Then I'll just have to try and find an equivalent to 2400 in Vihtavuori's list... :)

[Bass Ackward]

What I'm thinking about now is how this would affect the revolver; will the frame and it's internal clockwork hold up to the pounding of sending this boolit away? The pressures are low, the SAAMI max is 17000psi, so that wouldn't be a problem, but I guess there is more to it than just pressure...



There are two kinds of wear. That from pressure and that from break in. Using a long for caliber bullet right away, means that alignment is either perfect or it will be forced to be. You will know by monitoring your notches in the cylinder.

And my comment about pressure was to show that QUICKLOAD is less accurate the heavier you go in bullet length or the faster you go in powder speed without making the adjustment.

And in the end, it is all about barrel length for powder selection. A man with a 4" barrel has much less options and must generate more pressure than a guy with an 8 3/8".

[Boz330]

It has been awhile since I seriously shot IPSC, but in the US to make major it has to be a round that is factory loaded to major or you shoot in Open class. The 38 Super can be loaded to major but only shot in Open class. A revolver in open class would be at a severe disadvantage. If the European rules are different please ignore.
Why don't they just get 357s and no problem what so ever.

Bob

[Whistler]

Boz330: In Sweden you more or less have to load your own ammo if you shoot anything but 9x19mm. Factory ammunition is way too expensive! You can use your own loads in Revolver Standard, as long as you can pass your factor requirement in an ammo control.

As I said, this is not about having the most optimal load, but to see whether or not it is possible to make Major with a .38Spl.

[dbldblu]

The old Speer #8 manual showed 38 special loads that would hit 197 power factor. This was with a 158 grain bullet. The disclaimer was that such loads would cause accelerated wear. If you asked Speer today, they would say the data is obsolete or no longer supported or some such.

[Whistler]

dbldblu: Was that with a jacketed or lead bullet? Do you have that load data?

[beagle]

I haven't read Glenn's article on the .35 rifle bullets.

Back in the 60s, I tried 35875s in a .38 Special and the velocity was so slow you could almost see the bullets.

Several years ago, I came back and messed with both the 358430 and the 35875 and got a little more velocity out of them as I was older and a little wiser but I still wasn't impressed to the point that I could find a use for the load.

They do hit very hard and would make a very good, hard hitting defense load./beagle


bigdog454: You really haven't read the thread at all, have you? ;)
I specifically wrote that I'd use a cast lead boolit and what pressure I got when seating the bullet to the standard .38Spl OAL.

Willbird & beagle: The Federal 100 primers flatten from my normal .357Mag loads that aren't really hot at all, but the hard-to-extract cases is a sign as sure as any that the cylinder might take damage. Or am I being overly cautious? I haven't tested any of this yet, only calculated and theorized on my friend's experiences.

Any thoughts on the article Glen E. Fryxell wrote? He used almost as heavy bullets that were originally intended for .35 calibre rifles.

[Landric]

OK, with the 358430 seated to the crimp grove in .38 Special brass I got between power factors between 170 and 180 with both 9.5 grains of 2400 and 6.9 grains of HS-6. Average velocity was about 875 fps from a 4" S&W 681-3.

Hope it helps.

[Mk42gunner]

Irregardless of the pressures involved; would there be enough adjusment in the rear sight of a K-frame S&W to even zero a 200 or 250 grain bullet?


Robert

[Willbird]

If you are getting sticky extraction you have probably exceeded the yield point of the brass, which in almost all cases in a revolver is not a good thing to be doing EVER. My point is that if you have exceeded the yield point of the brass, you have generated a lot more than 18,000 PSI.

Looking at primers in revolvers for the most part is only going to tell you something after you have went WAY too hot, especially in 38 special revolvers.

Bill

[kirb]

I shoot ispc using a 610 S&W 210 gr boolit and a 40 S&W instead off the 10mm. which allows me to seat the boolit out almost to the end of the cylinder. I use speed green lube to keep the smoke down. I think that boolit shape is more important than weight, it needs to be round nose smooth to the case so the only bump is the lip of the case. Which I am sure you all know. The speed of the reload is what helps win the match size of the hole make a faster reload. I can load my 45 ACP a little faster than the 40 S&W but I have a hard time with the front site on the 4 inch barrel. That being said Bud Bond could load a 38 Super like a wild man. I have shot 40cal, 38 super, 38 and 357, 45 ACP in matches icore and ispc settled on the 40 because of old eyes and a long sight radius. More matches have been won in the revolver division with a 45 ACP than any other and is by far the choice in the USA. I have shot open limited and limted10 and have more fun with a revolver than and thing. I haven’t shot for about a year because I have not been able to find federal primers picked up 20,000 so here I go again cant wait area 1will be 75 mile from home this year national in Vegas I think. Good luck and have fun

Kirb

[dbldblu]

Whistler, it was with a lead bullet and yes I have the data. PM me if you want it. I am reluctant to post it here as it is hot, probably well above +P. I actually loaded some rounds with the data back then and nothing bad happened, extraction was ok. I imagine a steady diet would cause accelerated wear.