7.65 Arg problem

[LarryM]

Finally got a chance to start working up a load for for my 1891 Argy.
I ordered in some Prvi brass from Graf.
Resized and trimmed and primed up 20 with my venerable old Lee hand primer tool and all the primers were high. I was using the Lee #3 shell holder.
I reseated them using the ram prime on my Lyman press.

It looks like the rim on the case are not thick enough to allow the primer to seat fully using the #3 primer shell holder. Any suggestions?
I'd rather not have to use the ram primer set up if I don't have to.

[Gerry N.]

You're not going to like my advice.

Chuck the PRVI brass into the nearest GI can and get some once fired GI '06 brass. Pull the expander ball from your FL size die and form the '06 to 7.65x53mm, then rough trim the necks with an "Imp" tubing cutter. Now finish trim, and deburr. Reinstall the expander ball and give all your brass a finishing pass. Now prime and reload. Since the milspec brass is more than likely to be thicker and have somewhat less case capacity, drop the lowest load for the powder and bullet you're using 10% and come up in 1 gr. increments until you go 1 gr past best accuracy and fall back.

I've also had good results using reformed 7.62x51mm or .308 Win. brass. All that's required for those is a pass through the FL size die. The brass is a smidgen short, but not enough to get one's knickers in a twist over. Depending on brass, rifle, and loading technique the brass may stretch to the "proper" length in time. Much of mine did, especially that used in my little M91 Carbine.

Or you could just look around and find some Norma brass or loaded rounds to start with. I always liked to reform GI brass because it was more fun and I had a 35 gal Alemite Grease drum full given to me in the early 60's. There's still about a foot of brass in the bottom of it.

Gerry N.

[madsenshooter]

PRVI has been noted by several reloaders to have out of spec primer pockets, my 7.5x55 Grafs brass is included. Before loading, either swage the pockets or use Sinclair's primer pocket uniformer to cut them deeper. Doesn't do you much good now that you've got them loaded though.

[dualsport]

For what it's worth, all the PP brass I've used has been fine, no problems at all. Maybe I'm just lucky. Nevertheless, I will try reforming 7.62x51, I have a bunch. Can this be done with .270 brass too? I have a bunch of that too, range pickups, but I don't shoot .270! I can't walk away from free brass.

[madsenshooter]

With a tapered expander ball the 270 should work fine, the commercial brass will size easier than GI. I wouldn't walk away from it either, several uses for it. My comments about PRVIs primer pockets come from several local reloaders in 7.5x55 and my own experience with Grafs, that was made by PRVI. You've got lucky or we've got unlucky. Other than the tight and shallow primer pockets, no complaints and there's no reason for the thread starter not to use it. According to this chart, http://www.handloads.com/misc/shellholders.asp he should be using a LEE #2. That alone could be the problem. Well, crud, the link has the wrong info too, he needs a Lee #2, emailed both them and Lee.

[Buckshot]

............I don't think Lee makes one specifically for the Argentine, as their #3 is also listed for the 30-30 size if their Hand Prime shellholders track their regular shellholder numbers. The rim of the 30-30 is .063" thick and the 7.65x53 is .039". A bit too much slop in there.

................Buckshot

[madsenshooter]

SAAMI should make the manufacturers standardize those #s. Lee 3 is 30/30, RCBS 3 is standard .470 head size. But then standardization would just create more confusion, is that a pre-standardization # shellholder or post? Scratch that thought. Hmm, me thinks there's a typo somewhere, I just went to the Lee site and they do indeed list the #3 as for the 7.65 Arg, 7.5 Swiss, and those with a 30/30 rim. Error, error, that does not compute!

[dualsport]

Thanks Madsen, that's good news. Especially since I just bought 100 .270 cases here from a forum brother. I can't walk away from a good deal either, although I prefer free. After reforming my plan is to remove the incorrect headstanp with a Dremel, very lightly. Up 'til now I haven't worried about it, but I'm building up a supply of incorrectly marked cases, and I aint gettin' any younger. Don't want someone trying to shoot the wrong ammo because of me. For my own ID purpose, I use a permanent felt tip pen and mark the boxes/bags/cases. Anybody know a better way?

[Multigunner]

I had primer pocket problems with Seller&Bellot .303 brass in the past. With those cases the bottom edge of the pocket had a radius that contacted the foot of the anvils, causing many primer detonations while priming.
I made a small cutter from a spring steel pocket clip from a pen to scrape away the radius, after that I had no more problems with those cases other than the pocket diameter also seemed a bit tight. After messing around with these cases for awhile I chucked those remaining.

After annealing the necks, hand reaming the pockets, and polishing away rough spots inside the necks the ammo loaded on these proved highly accurate, but thats just too much trouble to go to.

From what I understand component production in the old soviet bloc countries is a Chinese firedrill with no telling who made what or when, and headstamps being no real garantee where anything came from.

I ran across an article on poor quality of recent imports awhile back, and apparently theres next to no quality control over there anymore. No one is taking responsibility for stuff thats not for domestic use within their own borders.

[LarryM]

Madsenshooter's solution looks like it should fix my problem since the root of my issue is too much slop in the autoprime shell holder. The primers seated fine when I put them thorugh the ram prime on my Lyman press. I also tried some factory Norma brass and had the same issue with the primers not being seated.
As far as forming milsurp brass I've literally got a 3 gallon bucket full of expended 7.62/.30-06 blanks. I'm hoping I can use some of those as well.

[Multigunner]

Madsenshooter's solution looks like it should fix my problem since the root of my issue is too much slop in the autoprime shell holder. The primers seated fine when I put them thorugh the ram prime on my Lyman press. I also tried some factory Norma brass and had the same issue with the primers not being seated.
As far as forming milsurp brass I've literally got a 3 gallon bucket full of expended 7.62/.30-06 blanks. I'm hoping I can use some of those as well.

Not sure but I think some blank cartridge cases have a much smaller powder space. Best to check anyway, but I expect you've already planned on checking capacity.

[JSH]

FWIW, I made all of my argentine brass from GI brass. The neck wall thickness was way to much. I reamed rather than neck turned, as i knew this reamer set up to be about as true as most factory brass when done. I didn't try any commercial brass so i can't comment on that.
probably not necessary, but I did anneal the neck/shoulder on mine. it fir formed very nicley and have no issues with it at all.
I may have gotten lucky but my argentine has been a pleasure to work with and is a favorite of mine.
I had backed off a considerable amount of my milsurp shooting. I ran across a few K of wolf large rifle primers for cheap this past weekend, so I am back in the game again.
jeff

[LarryM]

Yup, Lee #2 works, duh.

[madsenshooter]

Lee has it listed wrong on their website, don't know about their printed charts, but I emailed them to let them know. Some people don't even have enough sense to check whether or not a primer is seated. I've bought a lot of reloads that had high primers. I have a Garand and it has become habit to always check primer seating, I think my finger is fairly educated now.

[leadman]

The old Norma brass takes the Lee #3.

RCBS makes a trim die that works real well for reforming 30-06, 270, etc. to 7.65X53. This and a tiny hacksaw from Harbor Freight, a file and you are set.

I have the RCBS Trimmate that uniforms primer pockets easily, or the primer pocket swager if you don't want to remove brass.

[dominicfortune00]

As far as forming milsurp brass I've literally got a 3 gallon bucket full of expended 7.62/.30-06 blanks. I'm hoping I can use some of those as well.

IIRC, the brass used to make blank ammo fails one or more of the requirements for brass that is used for regular ball ammo.

In other words it's a second grade of brass not fit for anything other than blanks.

Can anybody confirm this?

[Larry Gibson]

IIRC, the brass used to make blank ammo fails one or more of the requirements for brass that is used for regular ball ammo.

In other words it's a second grade of brass not fit for anything other than blanks.

Can anybody confirm this?

TM 9-1305-200 states; "Cartridge cases having minor imperfections, or reused cartridge cases can be used in the assembly of this type of ammuntion" (M1909 30-06 blanks). It doesn't say what those "minor imperfections" can be. Perhaps someone with experience in the manufacture can tell us?

Also this is the first instance where the possibility of reloaded ammuntion (blanks) may be produced.

Obviously from the extended length of 7.62 and 5.56 blank cases are not reject cases as they were made longer to begin with to feed through automatic weapons. I doubt they are made from "reject" brass. Numerous reloaders that I know use the M1909 cases to form the shorter 6.5, 7mm, 7.65 mm, 7.7 jap and 8mm cases with complete satisfaction. I also know others who use 7.62 and 5.56 blank cases for the normal lower pressure cast bullet loads without problems. I do not simply because i have sufficient quanities of regular cases. It is still an interesting question that deserves a quantified answer. Perhaps someone knows?

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

You should check the thickness of the brass at the neck, I think the blank cases are thicker there since theres no bullet to take the stress of autoloading. If not strong enough the front end of the blank might bend when slam loading.

I have some old blanks around here, both 5.56 and .30/06. I think the mouth of the 06 blank looked a bit thick.

PS
Just remembered I have a few 7.62 NATO blanks as well.

Don't have rifles in any of those calibers, just stuff that has accumulated over the years for no good reason.

[Bob S]

Some years ago I came into a bunch of cal. 30 blanks, late 50's and about 50 "FA 60 Match". I popped the red seal, dumped and discarded the powder, partially removed the roll crimp by gently tapping a marlinspike into the case mouth, and then neck sized. It was a source of cheap (free) non-corrosive primed cases for an impoverished undergraduate student. Charged with 4895 and Sierra bullets, they were fired in my Springfields and M1's. After the first firing the necks were annealed, and they were treated the same as the rest of my supply of cases. Some time later, I wrote to NRA about the curious "Match blanks". Here's the response from Chuck Suydam:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Suydamletterblanks.jpg

I still have that bunch of blank cases and still load and fire them. After all these years and about 40 fire/load cycles, you can still see a mark where the roll crimp was. The only cases I recall "loosing" was some cracked necks during the de-crimp/neck size operation. With 15 grains of 2400 behind a 311291, they will probably last about six lifetimes. Your mileage may vary ....

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Larry Gibson]

Bob S

That certainly falls in line with what the TM says. Thanks for posting that.

Larry Gibson

[Sawfish]

I have also salvaged new blank cases for '06 fodder, as well as turning some into 7.65 cases.