Big meplat vs hollowpoint in 45 acp

[crabo]

I've been following the thread about what cast boolit for self defense in a 45 acp and would like to hear some discussion on big meplat boolits vs hollowpoint boolits. The big meplat boolit I am thinking about is the BD 45.

http://www.castpics.net/Lee_moulds/BD45_09/bd45_09.html

The way I am seeing it right now is for small game and self defense the hollowpoint with a softer bhn seems to have the edge. For larger and thicker skinned animals, the big meplat with a harder bhn would have the advantage.

What do you think? Am I missing something or do I have it right?

[fredj338]

I make & use both. The Lee 200grFP is a good all round bullet, would work for SD where HP are banned & for hunting if legal. A LHP would be my choice for SD & smaller game though. Tough to argue w/ 70cal holes.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg

[Glen]

Yes, that is basically right. But what you also have to consider is that the big meplat can also have a detrimental effect on feeding reliability in the .45 ACP. I have a 225 grain big meplat .45 ACP bullet that I had Mountain Molds make the mould; it has a 70% meplat, and I like that bullet just fine, but it is VERY sensistive to OAL for reliable feeding. I have found cases where a .005" difference in OAL went from 100% reliability to ~90%. Not good...

[JIMinPHX]

As far as I'm concerned, any .45 round that shoots accurately & feeds reliably is a good defensive round. With the smaller calibers, you need to worry more about expansion. With the .45, it's already a big chunk of lead when it leaves the barrel. If you want hollow points, go for it. Ball ammo, flat points & semi-wadcutters all work fine for me. & that's coming from a guy that sells hollow pointing fixtures.

[HeavyMetal]

Big meplats are good and for large game almost required but as fredj338 said it's tough to beat a 70 caliber hole!

Another point I gently tried to make in the other thread was the issue of over penatration, once a boolit pass's through a target it won't just fall to the ground!

Case in point: a friends son decided to do some caliber testing for his Science Class as his "Theme Paper" I didn't go to the presentation but I did help shoot his "visual aids".

One was an truck door complete with glass the other was 14" by 14" square piece of 3/4 inch plywood stacked 12 piece's thick.

The door and the plywood were shot with both Commerical Winchester 45 230 ball ammo and my reload using Lee's H&G 68 copy ( 200 grain) over 7.5 grains Unique.

Imagine my surprise when My ammo went though the door, glass and all, at 21 feet and the Winchester did not! Fired from the same gun!

The Plywood was "hinged" using duct tape. Again imagine my surprise to find out the Winchester load only made it through 9 blocks ( nose just sticking out the back of the nineth piece) while my Lee H&G copy made it through 10 and was buried half way through the 11th!

Again one gun at 21 feet.

At that time I started thinking of "colateral" damage and started toying on and off with HP boolits.

So a good self defence round should expand quickly, be of sufficent diameter that expanding isn't required to get the bad guys attention, and dump all it's velocity into the target so as not to exit.

This last requirement is the hardest to accomplish and quite frankly I don't know how you could do that on a repeatable basis without giving up some stopping power. So penatration will always be an issue.

Our job is to not make penatration the deciding factor it what we carry, or load, but that we approach the load development with balance in mind.

This is of course why we have 150 grain 9mm rounds, that fail miserably, and the 40 S&W round which is trying to be the best of both worlds depending on Boolit weight selected.

Jury is still out on the 40 and I think the 40 is simply an easier answer to the problem than re engineering a 100 yr old round like the 45.

If you've been reading that thread you'll know that I also suggested a Lee 155 grain swc load after he explained his choice of carry gun.

I'll stand by that suggestion until someone has a better one.

Again I post this not to start an arguement but rather to suggest idea's that may be overlooked by many.

[mpmarty]

I don't carry reloads in my CCW pistol. I carry factory rounds loaded with 185 gr Barnes solid copper flying ashtrays. The hollow point is HUGE! But they feed flawlessly in my 1911s and my Mil pro 3" carry gun.

[35remington]

HM, given that 7.3 grains Unique with the 200 Lee SWC of the same design as yours gets 1150 fps in my guns with that bullet, and the ball load was likely going 810 fps or so, that's not hard to believe.

7.5 Unique is certainly not a load for frequent use. It's extra hot.

[HeavyMetal]

35reminton I agree the 7.5 grain load of Unique is a "carry" load and is/was meant to be used in, and only in, a life threating stichuation.


Given the sharp shoulder of the SWC design and the fact lead is softer than hardball I was really surprised at the difference in performance, particularly in the plywood!

It also made me re think the difference in "frection" between boolit metals and now I firmly belive that lead can get another 25 to 30 FPS same powder charge same boolit weight ove a copper jacketed bullet. There's something to think about.

These days I don't have any of that load left and most likely will never load it again ( it was 1990) but I have been exploring 180 grain HP loads in the 950 to 1000 FPS range.

Found that most of these loads go much faster in an 8 inch Contender barrel!

I love the challange of loading my own!

[Glen]

Heavy Metal -- there is no question that there are frictional differences between jacketed and cast bullets. I have personally seen cases where identical loads resulted in 150 fps difference (with cast being faster than jacketed), and 50-100 fps difference is not unusual. In fact, in my experience, it is usual for cast and jacketed to shoot at the same speed (it does happen, but not often...).

[GabbyM]

Their are some ballistic gelatine studies showing the temporary cavity effect from a flat point bullet doesn't kick in until you reach 900 fps. Article never speculated but it looks like the speed of sound to me. At any rate I'd think a 200 grain bullet like the H&G 68 SWC or magma 200 grain truncated cone flat base would be the way to go for large meplat. After all a 200 grain bullet isn't exactly a lightweight.

[35remington]

HM, the lead in your SWC, even if just straight ACWW's, is noticeably harder than the lead in a FMJ round. The lead in these FMJ's is rather soft, and the jacket relatively thin. It deforms easily on hard resistance.

A hard cast version of your bullet would have a lot of penetration. And easily outdo nearly any FMJ in terms of penetration on any target.

Assuming you're getting 1170 fps out of your load, that calculates to 608 ft/lbs. The factory ball load is about 335 ft/lbs.

[Harter66]

I agree the 45 makes a big hole with or without an HP. If you use it for personal protection in situations other than out in the wilds carry/keep it with factories. If you have to use it the factories will save you in the civil suit.
In an area where I expected to see lions or bears I'd go with the big meplat if dealing with dogs or people or deer I'd shoot the HP. I have shot a few 260gr RNFPs in a 1917 colt over 7.0 of Unique seated long they were making huge holes in a 55 gallon drum and punched about 6-7 " of douglas fir fired at around 900fps from the E0 yrd line.

[Harter66]

I agree the 45 makes a big hole with or without an HP. If you use it for personal protection in situations other than out in the wilds carry/keep it with factories. If you have to use it the factories will save you in the civil suit.
In an area where I expected to see lions or bears I'd go with the big meplat if dealing with dogs or people or deer I'd shoot the HP. I have shot a few 260gr RNFPs in a 1917 colt over 7.0 of Unique seated long they were making huge holes in a 55 gallon drum and punched about 6-7 " of douglas fir fired at around 900fps from the E0 yrd line.

[crabo]

I ordered the BD 45 thinking it would be a good boolit for my friend who lives outside of Las Vegas, New Mexico at 9,000 ft. They have black bear around quite a bit. He has never been a fan of 44 mag pistols, or larger, but loves his 45 acp. I was thinking that the 235 grain BD45 with a stout load of Unique, would be a good load for him to carry in his walking around gun.

I need to load some up and see how they function in his gun. (and mine as well) I thought it would also be good as a side arm when hunting pigs since my 44 mag has a 7 1/2" barrel and weighs as much as a guide gun.

[HeavyMetal]

For bear I think I'd want all the penatration I could get!

In this case, knowing the intended threat and lack of population in the area, I'd go back to the Lee 68 copy and either Unique or Bluedot in Large amounts!

Penatration is a function of both weight and velocity. In the 44 mag you can have both because the round was engineered to handle a pressure range at least twice that of the 45 auto.

Going to big weight in the 45 just means a slower boolit speed and with bear I feel we are talking failure!

I'd try to make my 45 boolits as hard as I could, say 24 BHN. This would serve three functions, first it would get the boolit into the 190 grain range, second it would make it hard enough to withstand being deformed if you hit thick bone ( like bear skull) third it will now be able to get into a much higher velocity range.

I would work up to 10 grains of Bluedot with this boolit and look for a velocity in the 1100 FPS range! This is not a target practise round!

You would carry this load if you had large bears in the hood and feared you were going to have to deal with them. You would want to carry it in a full size 1911 platform and you would not shoot it in an aluminum framed gun!You would also want to invest in a very stiff recoil spring assymbly!

Depending on the size of the bear I'd say your a tad undergunned with the 45 auto, so load hot and shoot for the brain!
Keep in mind that a hit any place else is going to make him mad and then he'll want to fight!

35remington:
I've pulled my share of 45 230 grain RN "ball" ammo out of the dirt as well as salvage Militarey ammo.

every mil spec round I've pulled has had a jacket that looks to be 1/8 inch thick! I do know that some "plated" ball ammo is out there but it is not the same stuff as wincheter Military or commercial ball unless things have changed greatly in the last 10 years, that would be the last time I salvage 45 military ammo.

You are correct the lead inside is pure but jackets I've seen in the past are thick!

[fredj338]

You are correct the lead inside is pure but jackets I've seen in the past are thick!
I don't think they go anything close to even 1/32" thick jacketes, but commercial 230gr, like WWB, wieg in about 30gr for the jacket. Most look pretty good coming out of a berm unless they hit rock. I like the 200grLFP from Lee. Huge meplate, cast hard & driven @ even 950fps, it causes a nice wound channel in wetpack & goes deep. It would be my choice for a woods load.

[35remington]

They're not thick. The end of the jacket is rolled at the end and folded over. The jacket puts a slight crimp on the heel of the bullet and most of what looks "thick" isn't jacket thickness. It's the folded over jacket.

It's pretty deceivingly thick looking, I agree, but it really isn't.

No need to bother with Blue Dot unless you're in it for the variety. You're already well over 1100 fps with your Unique load.

On edit: I tend to favor the wider meplat HG 68 clones like the RCBS version and the group buys we've had here on Castboolits over the Lee version. The Lee version seats deeper in the case than some other HG 68 clones and often gets a little more velocity with the same charge, function of the bevel base, deep lube groove and skinny nose.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I kinda favor Federal's 230 GR Hydra-Shok Hollow Points for my carry load. From my readings on the effects of this round it is near the top of the heap. Somewhere in the area of 96% of folks shot with this round are stopped! The Remington Golden Sabre is also near that figure. The infamous Black Talon round in .45 ACP was a lot lower.

Having fired both the Federal offerings in .38 and .45 ACP into multiple water jugs I was pleased to find even expansion of both slugs and good penetration through at least 3 water jugs (1 gallon milk jugs) and both entered into the fourth jug and then stopped. The first water jug exploded and was totally ripped apart. The 2nd was torn pretty badly. The 3rd split on the front side and a hole in the rear and the fourth jug penetrated and both slugs were found intact in the last jug.

Both had expanded perfectly and when weighed had lost very little weight.

They are however expensive but I think I am worth it. I killed 8 water jugs with two bullets and I would stake my life on the performance of either round in my guns. The .38 weighed 129 grs and was rated as a +P round. The .45 was not a +P round but had a sharp recoil, low muzzle flash and was accurate.

I have only fired a handful of each round due to the cost factor but I like them both.

[HeavyMetal]

Been a long time since I put scrounged range lead in a pot and melted it and I don't have any scap "ball" to check but yes a crimped over lip could explain what looks like a veery thick jacket, at least at the base.

I'll keep my eye open next range visit. Usually I can spot at least one 230 grain copper slug while changing targets. It'll give me some thing to play with.

As to the group buy boolits, you bet some nice molds have been up and around in the GB's. However I suggested the Lee clone for one reason: he can get it now!

GB's were up to a year wait at my last entance into one. I wasn't aware that RCBS had added an H&G clone to it's line up but I bet I can get to Lee six banger's for the price n ne RCBS 2 cavity mold!

The RCBS will be of excellent quality so either way he wanted to go the OP wouldn't get hurt.

I suggested Bluedot as well as Unique because some will have one but not the other and I'm not big on buying a powder for single source loading unless I really like it!

Crash's input is good to know! I have never been impressed with the Black Talon stuff and often thought the media made a stink over the name.

[gasboffer]

I agree the 45 makes a big hole with or without an HP. If you use it for personal protection in situations other than out in the wilds carry/keep it with factories. If you have to use it the factories will save you in the civil suit.
In an area where I expected to see lions or bears I'd go with the big meplat if dealing with dogs or people or deer I'd shoot the HP. I have shot a few 260gr RNFPs in a 1917 colt over 7.0 of Unique seated long they were making huge holes in a 55 gallon drum and punched about 6-7 " of douglas fir fired at around 900fps from the E0 yrd line.

Harter, could you cite a civil suit where the shooter used a reloaded bullet and lost his case?
Clyde

[Bill*]

Uh Oh...There's that can of worms again;)

[Harter66]

Gasboffer,
Not off hand. I read of several in Florida a number of years ago. The out comes were I'm sure combined for the articals. At a minimum the suits were filed after the bad guy was decesed or cripled and jailed. The shooters were retuned their firearms and sent home clear and then seued because as a hand loader their ammo was more deadly somehow. In any case it cost the shooterwhom did no wrong $1000s to defend his handloads that more or less duplicated a given factory load. The artical in particular was written by a lawyer with a CCW for I think hand gunner magizine. I will see if I saved the writtings if I will post the particulars.

[fredj338]

Harter, could you cite a civil suit where the shooter used a reloaded bullet and lost his case?
Clyde

It's really more common sense than legal case law. Think about it this way; you get involved in a shooting, you kill or badly injure the BG.You are cleared criminally, but the family sues in civil court. This is where your handloads are going to cost you money. IMo, there are so many things that can & will go wrong in court over a SD shooting. Why give the prosecution any add'l. ammo, so to speak? Use waht most LEA use & that is the only thing that has to be said when asked" why did you choose this or that bullet. Besides, little is gained by handloading your own. The higher end SD laods are quiter reliable & offer bullets not found to the reloader. There is just so little point. Even cost is not an issue. Once you shoot 2-3mags form your pistol to verify reliability (yes, you really need to do this, 4-5 rds is NOT enough) then pratice w/ handloaded equiv. ammo & just carry the expensive stuff.

[BD]

I have little use for hollow points of any kind in handguns carried for SD in the woods. I'll bet I've caped better than 50 black bears that had a "finishing shot" from a 240 grain JHP .44 mag that failed to penetrate the side of the skull fired at ranges under 10 feet. The one benefit is that they must itch because the I've seen bears sit down to scratch at JHP wounds, giving those so inclined time to climb the nearest tree. I'll take a hard RNFP any day of the week at handgun velocities, especially in the .45.

SD in town may be different, and I've been pretty lucky, so I have no real experience in that area.

BD

[mpmarty]

Living in the Oregon Coast Range mountains we have many black bear neighbors. I don't feel that my 45acp CCW pistol is adequate for these pests and carry my 10mm instead. 200gr solid at 1200fps has a sectional density far greater than any common 45acp slug and penetrates quite well. Plus my 10mm carries fifteen rounds.

[gray wolf]

It has been a pleasure to sit back and read this thread, All of the opinions seem to have merit and value.

[housefull]

Yes, that is basically right. But what you also have to consider is that the big meplat can also have a detrimental effect on feeding reliability in the .45 ACP. I have a 225 grain big meplat .45 ACP bullet that I had Mountain Molds make the mould; it has a 70% meplat, and I like that bullet just fine, but it is VERY sensistive to OAL for reliable feeding. I have found cases where a .005" difference in OAL went from 100% reliability to ~90%. Not good...

[shooting on a shoestring]

Gasboffer...I see you're a fellow Texan, and hence in our castle doctrine state, a good shoot will be exempt from any civil liability brought forth on the part of the perp. Therefore, I carry the best ammo I can...my loads.

Along the lines of this thread, I pulled my .45 Colt heavy loaded, off of nightstand duty in favor of .357. I got to thinking, about the extreme penetration, and I have a couple of houses near me. I've also moved to hollow point 148 grain wadcutters cast fairly soft, and pushed to near max (a tad over 1500 fps from 4" GP100). Absolutely shreds a water jug. I'll have to line up 4 or 5 and see how quick they stop.

Edit: Opps, maybe I should post this under "Thread Drifting".

[HeavyMetal]

Harter66:
Sounds like you were reading some of Massad Ayoob's drivel on hand loads and self defense!

He's written a couple of articles for handgunner on this subject but, as far as I know, has never been able to produce a real "case" where it has happened.

Rumor is he duck's in public when asked questions abut this very subject!

If you find the article and it has an actual case number please PM me with it.

Sorry for the Hi jack Crabo.

By the way Ayoob has written some great stuff about many other shooting related things.

[Rem700]

:coffeecom:roll:

I have little use for hollow points of any kind in handguns carried for SD in the woods. I'll bet I've caped better than 50 black bears that had a "finishing shot" from a 240 grain JHP .44 mag that failed to penetrate the side of the skull fired at ranges under 10 feet. The one benefit is that they must itch because the I've seen bears sit down to scratch at JHP wounds, giving those so inclined time to climb the nearest tree. I'll take a hard RNFP any day of the week at handgun velocities, especially in the .45.

SD in town may be different, and I've been pretty lucky, so I have no real experience in that area.

BD

[Rem700]

Bear skulls are not heavy bone.

[Bass Ackward]

All of this is why Taurus's new Judge line is so popular.

Home defense: All 410s
Outside defense: Two 410s and the last heavy Colts

[BD]

It is correct that bear skulls are not heavy bone. However, the side of a bear skull is protected by about 2" of jaw muscle under 3/8" of pretty tough hide. The front of the bears skull is just about perfectly shaped to deflect bullets off the top. On the other hand I do know that trapped bears can easily be put down with a single .22 LR in the ear. I spent about 5 years baiting and guiding bear hunters in Maine. And another five years running them with dogs. I've seen a few killed. I also spent seven years fleshing and tanning bear hides for taxidermists. During that time I caped about 350, and fleshed about 5,000 fresh pelts. I have some experience in this area.

I've also fleshed and tanned several hundred moose for taxidermists. I'd guess I found 20 or 30 handgun caliber JHPs embedded in them. Generally they're in a big abscess just under the hide, well expanded and having penetrated less than two inches. The live skin of a bear, or moose, is a much tougher thing to penetrate than anything you'd find on a person.
BD

[fredj338]

All of this is why Taurus's new Judge line is so popular.

Home defense: All 410s
Outside defense: Two 410s and the last heavy Colts
Really? SO what kind of penetration do you think you get w/ a 410 form a short bbl w/ no chokce? I suggest you check that out @ 7 steps & report back to us.

[Harter66]

I believe it was Ayoob's writting you are I think correct as I have searched with deliberence and was unable to find a specific case.

[Bass Ackward]

Really? SO what kind of penetration do you think you get w/ a 410 form a short bbl w/ no chokce? I suggest you check that out @ 7 steps & report back to us.


The point here is that we are trying to get one gun in a platform designed for one function to do or perform opposite tasks with various forms of bullet compromise.

Shotguns, with and without chokes, have killed without penetration for hundreds of years. And the Colts have a hundred years of penetration and killing everything on this continent. Both extremes in a single platform.

[Bass Ackward]

Really? SO what kind of penetration do you think you get w/ a 410 form a short bbl w/ no chokce? I suggest you check that out @ 7 steps & report back to us.


The point here is that we are trying to get one gun in a platform designed for one function to do or perform opposite tasks with various forms of bullet compromise.

Shotguns, with and without chokes, have killed without penetration for hundreds of years. And the Colts have a hundred years of penetration and killing everything on this continent. Both extremes in a single platform.

And I have checked it out to 25 steps where it fails badly. But it is chest size to 15 and will hold a 4" group with the Colts. More than enough for people or bear.

[fredj338]

The point here is that we are trying to get one gun in a platform designed for one function to do or perform opposite tasks with various forms of bullet compromise.

Shotguns, with and without chokes, have killed without penetration for hundreds of years. And the Colts have a hundred years of penetration and killing everything on this continent. Both extremes in a single platform.
The only benefit of a 410 in a handgun is a superior snake killer. Again, try the 410 on something simple, like a whole chicken @ 21ft & get back to me. Terrible choice for SD/HD, not the same as a 410 from a full choke SG @ 21ft & even that would be a marginal SD/HD weapon choice IMO. I have no doubt w/ 45colts it works fine, but ditch the 410 unless you just want to make noise when the BG comes calling.

[DanOH]

So what would y'all say to the Lee 200 fp at 700 fps as a s/d load?
That seems to be the sweet spot for my fixed sight Kimber as far as 15 yd POI ,accuracy and a nice light recoil.
I've driven it up to about 850 without any hiccups but accuracy drops off a little and poi is off.
I shot it through 2 rectangular water containers (2 gals apiece)--apx 30" of water and the bullet exit was a perfect little round hole that had a matching little round "door" still hinged to the plastic. I didn't recover the boolit.
Do you really need to drive a fp boolit like that fast for it to be a crimestopper?

[Lloyd Smale]

I think it would take more explaining if i used a 12 guage with 3 inch OO buck to shoot a home invador and about cut him in half then it would if i used my normal handload for the acp with is a 200 swc and enough powder to maybe get 750fps. Face the fact that most of us use our handloads in these guns because we cant afford to buy the fancy factory stuff that is so effective so i would think if you put it that way in a trial they couldnt say much.