Whats easier 577Snider or 577/450

[218bee]

In my search for new toys and I enjoy BP in old original early cartridge conversion rifles or early cartridge rifles I want to try another. I have two Trapdoors a 45/70 and 50/70 and a 45/70 Roller. So I want to try another and was wondering about a 577 Snider or a Martini in 577/450.
How difficult is it to find brass and boolit molds for these two. I guess the Martini would be a little easier but not sure. I heard brass 24gauge to make the Snider? Probably better boolit selection for 577/450??? Always thinking thats my problem....what say ye

[Boz330]

I think it depends on your taste. The 24ga brass can be formed for both rounds. As far as the Snider, the twist rate can add some challenges to get it to shoot. There are several different twists available.
The Martinis have there own set of challenges as well. It doesn't take a standard 458 boolit unless it is a Gahendra, even then best to slug it. The MK2 bores are usually in the .465 to .468 area and the MK4 bores are .470+. Once you figure out what you are doing they are a lot of fun but getting started can be a little pricey.
This forum has a bunch of info. http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/
I would read up there before you jump into this unless you really like a challenge.
I got in back when the Nepal Cache first hit this country but I had an interest in these guns from a stint working in South Africa, but just never had the scratch till these reasonable firearms became available. The availability of components and dies now is much better than 5 years ago.

Bob

[Buckshot]

..............As Boz330 said, the slow twist of the standard Snider can cause accuracy issues. But, there are always .600" round balls![smilie=l: I have 2 Sniders and both are the slow twist types. One is an original 3 band and the other is a carbine via a cut down rifle. Both are loads of fun to shoot, and both do their best shooting a .600" RB cast of WW alloy. The Snider likes TONS of lube.

I have a MkIV Martini 577-450 and a 577-450 Sporter that was built on a Greener Martini.

http://www.fototime.com/D2244CBB5698496/standard.jpg

This is the only photo I have of the MkIV. My favorite load for it is the 405gr Lee 'as cast' and paper patched to .472" (2 wraps of 20lb typing paper) over 38.0 grs of IMR3031. Goes 1250 fps.

http://www.fototime.com/9DC03C642E41F6B/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B160E910F6E0995/standard.jpg

The Martini Sporter. It's barrel has ratchet rifling.

http://www.fototime.com/35572699B1D8361/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/1A15641CDD2AC93/standard.jpg

The Snider carbine. I don't have a photo of the 3 band rifle.

http://www.fototime.com/AEE4D33199214C0/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/D41D95B7168B29D/standard.jpg

Lee die set for the Snider. They also make (Or made) a set for the 577-450. The die in the right photo is a powder compression die I made for the Snider.

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

60 rounds of loaded 577-450 ammo using the above mentioned load. I did load 20 rounds with BP once and modern cases will hold a TON! It was about all the fun I could stand!

..............Buckshot

[218bee]

Buckshot what does the 577/450 bore slug at? Do you form brass from something or purchase new? Black doesn't work well for ya or is smokeless just better/easier in yours?


"I have a MkIV Martini 577-750"....... typo I assume....if not I want it!

[The Double D]

Is your MkIV marked 577-750? Because caliber was not marked in that manner on the MK IV.

577/450 was a commercial/civilian caliber marking. I think if you look real close, you should find that the calber markings you are looking at were hand engraved and the cross stroke of the 4 faded. Sure would like to see pictures of your rifle and especially the markings.

The rifling is odd numbered and if you don't know how to correctly measure it you will get some wrong numbers.

The configuration of this rifling is taking an entire chapter in the book I am working on.

You can shot .45-70 bullets and .464 diameter bullets in the rifle. Some people say they get good accuracy with those bullets. That is a fete I have never been able to duplicate. But then I don't shoot at 50 yards, I prefer 100 minimum.
I have used CBE's .464 and it works okay. I have also used RCBS' .468-480 biullet and it works a lot better. CBE now offers the .468 480 bullet also.

American shooters get all confused loading the fat boy. The American practice of loading the powder up until there is only enough room left in the neck for wad and bullet once the powder is compressed .100 or so won't work with the Martini case.

The Martini case has two parts. The powder chamber and the neck. Powder goes in the fat part, the powder chamber. Bullet and wads go in the neck. The British Military standards were documented in a set of writings called the List of Standards or LoC. The basic LoC standards load was 85 grains of a powder similar to Fg in granular size; that was in the powder chamber, In the neck was a card wad, wax wad, two more card wads. The bullet was a paper patched .480 grain 12-1 lead bullet.

If you put 85 grains in a modern drawn case or a converted CBC shotgun case you will find the powder chamber holds a good deal more then 85 grains. Leaving air space in a black powder cartridge makes some people nervous. Some use fillers in the powder chamber to take up the airspace.

Lee makes dies for this cartridge. But you will need a press that takes 1 1/4-12 dies. Look at the top of your press. If you see a large nut you may be able use these dies. Remove the nut and measure the hole

Word of warning. MidwayUSA website says these Lee dies must only be used in Lee presses or the warrenty is not valid. For the record the dies will fit other presses. I use them in my Rochchucker just fine. Midway has told me that Lee required them to add that warning.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot what does the 577/450 bore slug at? Do you form brass from something or purchase new? Black doesn't work well for ya or is smokeless just better/easier in yours?

Smokeless is just simpler. Fast to load, and no case cleaning afterwards

"I have a MkIV Martini 577-750"....... typo I assume....if not I want it!

You assume kee-rectly. That'd be an odd looking case, no?8-)The brass is all Bertram and I've had zero issues with it. I keep it in 20 round batches and the most experienced 20 have 32 firings.

.............Buckshot

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=The Double D;804866]Is your MkIV marked 577-750? Because caliber was not marked in that manner on the MK IV.

That -750 was a typo. It's not caliber marked.

577/450 was a commercial/civilian caliber marking. I think if you look real close, you should find that the calber markings you are looking at were hand engraved and the cross stroke of the 4 faded. Sure would like to see pictures of your rifle and especially the markings.

I guess you're still asking me? The markings are on the barrel of the sporter, and the '4' of 450 is easily visible, just didn't show up well in the photo. Which rifle would you like to see the markings of?

The rifling is odd numbered and if you don't know how to correctly measure it you will get some wrong numbers.

The configuration of this rifling is taking an entire chapter in the book I am working on.

The Military Martini is Henry rifling, and that of the sporter is ratchet.

You can shot .45-70 bullets and .464 diameter bullets in the rifle. Some people say they get good accuracy with those bullets. That is a fete I have never been able to duplicate. But then I don't shoot at 50 yards, I prefer 100 minimum.
I have used CBE's .464 and it works okay. I have also used RCBS' .468-480 biullet and it works a lot better. CBE now offers the .468 480 bullet also.

I've always used patched slugs, either the Lee 405 or 450gr. I do have 2 of the GB Lee mould from the British Militaria board. The Coyote .470" PB and the .468" ZAR HB, but I've not used them yet. Only had'em a bit over a year so you have to give me a chance :-)

..............Buckshot

[Boz330]

Surprisingly I have had the best luck from a .462 LBT mold of 385grs. It is a GG boolit of 20-1. I have numerous groups approaching 2 MOA at a 100yd with this load and BP. I also have the 480gr group buy mold from the British board but haven't tried it yet.

Bob

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I not sure if they are available in USA but another BP rifle of the era is the Alex Henry. I have 2 both chambered in 577/450. As I am left handed I jumped at this one a sporting rifle made in 1876 Ser No XX. The original chambering is very tight with a fired shell

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/AH_1.jpg

The 577 Snider required quite a bit of load development before it began to group. The standard Lyman minnie mold base plug was replaced with one that made the driving skirt much thinner so that it properly expanded into the slow twist rifling.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Big_4_C.jpg

[218bee]

Looks like some "bad ass" rifles Mr Bad Ass. We have similar tastes...I'm sure there are some Alex Henrys somewhere over here although I've not run across one.

[dromia]

I find that the .577" Snider simpler to reload for, needs less input.

The .577"/450" is more accurate.