lead free boolits

[dangerranger]

I live in the lead ban area of CA and altho lead free bulits are becoming available they are expencive. in the swaging forum it was sugested that I could try making the cores out of tin solder. and I got to thinking that if I could make cores why not just cast them out of tin and fit a check on the base? Im wondering if anyone has tryied this before? Thanks , DR

[Muddy Creek Sam]

There is a member that is casting zinc bullets, Can't remember the name. CRS is for the birds.

Sam :D

[hornsurgeon]

the problem i see is proving to the law officer that they are tin, not lead.

[Bullshop Junior]

To spendy. We cash boolits to SAVE money, not spend way to much.

[Lead Fred]

Ill always be able to get lead.

A law based on a lie, isnt much of a law.

[MtGun44]

Best solution is to MOVE to a free state.

I was born in CA, would not even consider living in that commie wonderland
today. Kind of a shame, it used to be a nice place.

Bill

[pps]

Oh...I had a dyslexic moment and thought you were going to post where we can get some free lead boolits. damn!

[lwknight]

Casting out of tin would cost you at least $0.40 per boolit at 240 grains.
Thats if you buy tin in bulk.
I guess if its a 125 grain boolit then its not much worse than cheap lead Copper jacketed rifle bullets.
What do lead free bullets cost? Heck it might be cheaper to cast with pure tin and a little antimony.

[lwknight]

I was doing some looking around and there are options for lead free boolits. Only problem is that the materials cost from 3 to 10 times more than lead.

[JIMinPHX]

I think that Floodgate was experimenting with casting out of bismuth for use in CA. Unfortunately, he left the board shortly after that project got started. I believe that the bismuth was more expensive than lead, but not as bad as tin. I believe that the bismuth was a little heavier than tin too.

[Jim]

I've done a lot of experimental casting and shooting with tin. There is NO obturation. The boolit/groove diameter needs to be an exact fit to get any kind of accuracy and quite often, there's a bad problem with yawing and tumbling.
I gave it up after getting no decent results.

[gray wolf]

Don't give up, but in the end you may have to face the fact about the state you live in.

[ghh3rd]

If you decide to shoot Tin boolits, please tell me which berm to mine :wink:

[pps]

If you decide to shoot Tin boolits, please tell me which berm to mine :wink:

No Kidding!!

I'd be willing to bet with a lathe, you could make some brass/bronze or copper bullets. Again...tell us where to mine.

[madsenshooter]

[QUOTE=hornsurgeon;802741]the problem i see is proving to the law officer that they are tin, not lead.[/QUOTE/]

The burden of proof would be upon the officer, or rather the prosecution, once he drug you into court. That's the way it's supposed to work, but I've found that we the people are generally assumed guilty until we prove our innocence. I would make no attempt to prove mine, let them have it analyzed, but have an ace in the hole with my own analysis.

[JIMinPHX]

[QUOTE=hornsurgeon;802741]the problem i see is proving to the law officer that they are tin, not lead.[/QUOTE/]

The burden of proof would be upon the officer, or rather the prosecution, once he drug you into court. That's the way it's supposed to work, but I've found that we the people are generally assumed guilty until we prove our innocence. I would make no attempt to prove mine, let them have it analyzed, but have an ace in the hole with my own analysis.

The problem with the way they do things today, is that even if you are presumed innocent until proven guilty in court, before you get to court, you still get handcuffed, dragged off to a holding cell, processed, & then maybe let go.

[notenoughguns]

I think that Floodgate was experimenting with casting out of bismuth for use in CA. Unfortunately, he left the board shortly after that project got started. I believe that the bismuth was more expensive than lead, but not as bad as tin. I believe that the bismuth was a little heavier than tin too.

Actually , bismuth is heaver than lead and casts fairly well .

[pps]

Actually , bismuth is heaver than lead and casts fairly well .

Lead's density is 11.35g/cc
Bismuth is 9.78 g/cc

[JIMinPHX]

Here's what floodgate came up with before he left us -
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=22909

Here's a previous discussion about the CA lead ban -
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=22857

[dangerranger]

I can shoot all the lead into a berm I want. I just cant shoot a live animal with lead. and .40c each are a bargain right now. thats why Im looking at making myown. Ill look into the bismouth/tin Idea. Ive had several invitations to move to other states but I have too much invested in this one to move now. in 5 to 10 yrs I could retire to anywhere I want but till then Im stuck here. DR

[Linstrum]

Bismuth is not entirely metallic in its properties and in its pure form it is too brittle to use in rifled bores without the rifling crushing and fracturing the brittle metalloid. Even though it has a silvery luster it is not too much different from solid graphite in its gross mechanical properties. Think of a bullet made out of a pencil lead to help you visualize what a pure bismuth bullet would be like. To use as bullet metal it has to be alloyed with tin to get it into a form that is malleable enough to take the rifling and obturate well in a gun barrel. When alloyed with tin it works okay from what others have told me who have experimented with bismuth alloy bullets.

Also, its density is 9.78 when pure, which is okay since a lot of materials used for bullets are not that dense. Compared to pure lead it is 86.24% (about 7/8) as dense, lead having a density of 11.34. Copper has a density of 8.94 and it works pretty good as far as transferring powder energy to the target.

From a practicality standpoint, I'd go with copper for hunting applications since it works quite well for harvesting large animals. It does not require dozens of bullets to fill your tag and machining a few hunting bullets out of a copper bar is an acceptable alternative to not hunting at all. I know you can't cast bullets out of copper in your favorite mould, but when your options are limited, your only course of action is to adapt using what is available.

Another alternative is to fight back against unreasonable impositions. I find rebelling in a manner not proscribed by our Constitution to be an entirely acceptable course of action for causes like this where the stupidity and arrogance of the few but disproportionally powerful elitists who believe that their totally out-of-touch-with-reality-way-of-life MUST be imposed on everyone except themselves; but rebels must be willing to bear the wrathful consequences that may be imposed on them for standing up to these vicious modern tyrants. For the time being, a hunting presence MUST be kept alive any way possible in order to fight back, since getting rid of lead bullets is one step in a series of hundreds of little steps being taken toward the main goal of destroying The Second Amendment altogether, so don't give up hunting just because you can't use your own lead bullets that you cast in your own mould anymore.

rl728

[Blammer]

what about zinc? use it to fill the middle of the boolits when swaging and then just swage a nose that is a really small HP so you can't see inside it. They'll look like factory so who's to say. :)

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I tried to melt some bis. in my lyman lead pot, could not get it to melt, even with melted Pb & Sn.:Fire::Fire:

[pps]

HI,
I tried to melt some bis. in my lyman lead pot, could not get it to melt, even with melted Pb & Sn.:Fire::Fire:

Now you got my curiosity peaked. It should melt at the mid 500 deg f mark. I may have to try to cast some up just for grins and giggles.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
IF YOU ARE WILLING TO KEEP 2 SETS OF CASTING EQUIPMENT.
ZINC (Zn) is a good option. A lot of the old timer casters did cast very hard & light bullets for the cal. out of Zn. This was pre 1960's. Do not know of ant who are doing it now.
But with WW drying up, & the skyrocketing cost of G.C. it has me cosidering doing it. Would only need PB boolits. Also DO NOT KNOW IF THE ALUM. TYPE MOULDS WOULD BE OK WITH Zn.

[Linstrum]

You must have had something interfering with the heat transfer to the bismuth since it melts at about 521 degrees F plus has a very low specific heat as well, even lower than lead.

Bismuth alloys have extraordinary low melting points, Cerro Safe is a bismuth alloy that melts around the boiling point of water. Bismuth alloys like Rose's metal and Wood's metal are used in the triggers of fire sprinklers.


rl729

[leadman]

I read someplace that Veral Smith was playing with lead free solder to cast bullets. I have to ask him.

I have considered casting lead free but just haven't found the time yet. Do have some solder I am saving for the project.

[Linstrum]

Back about ten years ago I did some experiments with one of the lead-free solders made by Frye Metals called Aqua Clean. Frye makes more than one type of lead-free solder and their Aqua Clean alloy I found to be the most suitable, it is their tin/bismuth/copper/silver mix. I don't know if Frye still makes Aqua Clean since I had originally bought the stuff 18 years ago back in 1992 to use as a Babbit metal for some large rolling mill cast bearings. Works great as an anti-friction metal and it worked equally well for pistol bullets. I didn't try to push it beyond about 1500 feet per second in a rifle, though. It is not very dense, using a 180 grain mould the bullets weighed in at about 125 grains, which indicates its specific gravity is about 7.9 and that is less than copper's 8.94, but it casts extremely well while it is impossible to cast copper in a standard bullet mould.

What makes bismuth so attractive is its high specific gravity and its low melting point plus it expands on cooling. What makes it so unattractive is its brittleness when pure and its alloys having unacceptably low melting points. When diluted with tin to a point where it has good bullet properties it loses its high density since tin is not very dense at 7.365.

Another possible alternative metal for bullets could be tantalum since it has a density of 16.69, which is approaching gold and platinum. It has one of the highest melting points of any of the elements so it cannot be cast using normal means. It is also pretty pricy and does not machine easily because of its hardness, so it is difficult to fabricate and can't come in contact with a gun bore since it is about as hard as steel. Its only desirable feature is its extremely high density and it has been used against armor. Because of its use for armor penetration, it is "politically incorrect".

I suppose that we will eventually get pushed into a corner as far as what we can use for bullets. Copper is a viable alternative where only few shots are required for hunting applications and Zamak zinc die casting alloy is a good alternative to lead for lead-free casting.

Don't throw away those zinc wheel weights, they are made from a zinc die casting alloy that casts well in the same moulds used for casting lead wheel weights. If zinc had a higher density it would be far, far superior to lead since gas checks don't need to be used with it, it doesn't lead bores to the same extent that lead alloys do, and it is very cheap.


rl730

[trk]

Can't yet speak to accuracy, but casting bullets from scrap lead-free solder (96.5% tin, 3% silver and 0.5% copper) makes the prettiest bullets I've ever cast. Works best from stone-cold mould. Hardness is just like copper jacketed bullets - 42-43 on Rockwell 'B' scale. A little tough to open the sprue cutter.

[DLCTEX]

Quote: IF YOU ARE WILLING TO KEEP 2 SETS OF CASTING EQUIPMENT.
ZINC (Zn) is a good option.
Why two sets? There is no residual effect on moulds or other equipment, contrary to what has been circulated by some. I have experimented with zinc casting using my regular equipment and there is no effect.

[Linstrum]

Hi, DLCTEX, what you say is quite true, it takes more than a microscopic speck of zinc to mess up alloy by increasing the surface tension of lead alloys contaminated with it, I'm doing some casting right now with some lead wheel weight alloy that is about 5% zinc from a zinc wheel weight that got away from me and into the pot. Instead of throwing out 5 pounds of hard to get wheel weight alloy I simply vented my mould blocks a little better with a jeweler's hack saw and kept right on casting with the messed up alloy - IT WORKS, just not as good.


rl731

[dangerranger]

Can't yet speak to accuracy, but casting bullets from scrap lead-free solder (96.5% tin, 3% silver and 0.5% copper) makes the prettiest bullets I've ever cast. Works best from stone-cold mould. Hardness is just like copper jacketed bullets - 42-43 on Rockwell 'B' scale. A little tough to open the sprue cutter.


this may work well for deer and pig hunting. as Id need only 20-30 a year but Ill need to find a cheaper answer for ground squirrels. I may try a mix of zinc and tin. thanks DR

[Czech_too]

This may be a little bit off the wall, but what about glue bullets?
While I haven't read all of this thread, it may be a possible solution.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=17577
Do wonder how they would work at any kind of distance? Doubt it there'd be any kind of expansion.

[madsenshooter]

Bismuth expands on cooling. That'd make the undersized molds Lyman is now making more useful to us, maybe.

[AZ-Stew]

what about zinc? use it to fill the middle of the boolits when swaging and then just swage a nose that is a really small HP so you can't see inside it. They'll look like factory so who's to say. :)

Zinc is too hard for hand swaging. You might do it with a hydraulic press, but you might be flirting with die damage/splitting.

Regards,

Stew

[Pollomacho]

Now that Barnes has cancelled the MRX line with a Silvex core, I've been trying to work up a homebrew version of Silvex in the back yard. From what I can gather online (check out the Silvex patent 5279787), it is a combo of Bismuth, Tin, and Tungsten powder. The tungsten won't melt at those low temps, but the tin and bismuth make a nice soft alloy that holds the powder as it hardens. The tungsten gives the slug the density it needs to match lead, while the tin and bismuth give you the softness. Other suggestions for alloys in the patent info are using tantalum powder in place of tungsten, and zinc in place of tin in the alloy mix.I got the tungsten powder from an outfit that sells it for filling cavities in golf clubs to add weight.

What I'm worried about now is the abrasiveness of the tungsten powder. Am I going to turn my rifle into a smoothbore if I don't jacket the heck out of those things? Any ideas about adding some copper to the mix to improve lubrication (think gilding metal)? I've yet to plug one of these suckers down range as I'm still playing with the alloys.

[63 Shiloh]

Now that Barnes has cancelled the MRX line with a Silvex core

What is the reason for Barnes to cease producing these bullets?

OK on topic, this lead free nonsense is frightening.

I can only hope that it does not get picked up by some anti politician here, they have already banned the use of lead shot in the States that still allow duck hunting.

This is a bit like a death by a 1000 cuts, taking one slice at a time to make our perfectly safe and enjoyable sport a thing of the past.

From what I have read, it seems only Ca is affected by this lead free hunting. I hope it does not spread to your other States fellers.

Would I be considered paranoid to suggest that there are more than politics at play in California? Has this ban on lead made anyone a lot of money?

Fight the good fight men.


Mike

[Pollomacho]

What is the reason for Barnes to cease producing these bullets?

The guy at Barnes told me it was due to the price of Tungsten, which I can see since the price has more than doubled since they introduced the MRX!

Nothing will totally replace lead, it's just not possible economically or scientifically, but it is fun to try out new alloys in the furnace. So far the EPA has been on our side for the rifle boolits, but its probably a matter of time, they managed to get the lead out of waterfowl shot, paint and gas, so who knows. Even the Chinese are passing anti-lead laws these days! At least by working on the problem now, we can be ready with some mixtures (and a store room full of lead ingots) when that time does come.