fire forming cases?

[danski26]

I was just catching up on a few of the gun rags I subscribe to and read an article where the author proclaims, never re-load a fireformed case to a higher pressure than it was fireformed at. In other words don't use a minimum load to fireform brass.

I fireform 30 WCF cases to fit my 7-30 waters and have always used the least amount of powder the manuals recomend. The only reason being to conserve powder.

Do you use full power loads to fireform brass?

Has anyone had a problem fireforming with reduced loads then using higher pressure loads in them?

[D.Mack]

This is the first time I've heard this. With out reading all of what he was talking about, I hate to comment, But how would properly formed brass know it was being fired at a higher pressure. O well read enough, and you can read anything DM

[Bass Ackward]

Danski,

The worry is to maintain headspace. It would depend on what case design you are trying to fire form to. Some designs don't get to "final" shape until the second Max firing. Reduced loads will collapse some case designs even after they have been fireformed with a max load.

IT's all about headspace.

[David R]

In my opinion, the case is formed the first firing no matter how much pressur is used. The next firing at a higher pressure will not matter, the case fits the chamber.

You shouldn't form a case at high pressure, it only needs to fit the chamber.

David

[ovendoctor]

years ago I use to have a super 14 in 357 herrett , had to make the cases out of 30/30 brass
used 20% reduced loads to fire form the brass[NOTE; DO NOT REDUCE 296 BALL POWDER FOR ANY REASON]
I dont recall any issues with useing reduced loads for fire forming


:castmine:

[danski26]

30 WCF and 7-30 waters both headspace on the rim. So that is not a consideration when fireforming.

[versifier]

I read the same bit. (My dad got a free subscription to the rag in question.) There was no other information, no details, no references, nothing at all to suggest that it was anything but another shovelful of fertilizer. The same source also said that if you load new brass with a low pressure load, it should never be used for a higher pressure load later. I think both statements were picked up at deer camp from someone simply running his mouth after liberal applications of Old Grandad and mindlessly repeated without bothering to check them out. But then, the source in question often repeats such things and puts them forth as wisdom from on high. Sadly, too many accept what he offers as if he actually knows something. Personally, I think he spends much of his time with his head in a position to be closely examining yesterday's lunch. (Betcha didn't think I could say that politely :-D ) Most of what I read in magazines I file as "entertainment". I figure if it was there for me to learn something, they wouldn't have published it in one of the rags as it would have gone right over the heads of most of their readers. [smilie=1:

[13Echo]

I had problems fireforming a .257 Ackley Improved. The chamber was a tad long and the case would move forward with the firing pin strike. The case would then streatch on firing instead of just blowing out the shoulder and body taper. The results was case head separation after 2 or 3 firings. I solved the problem by loading 120gr bullets that seated hard into the rifling to control headspace and using a reasonable, but not heavy charge of 4895. The cases formed perfectly and the headspace problem went away. Of course I also had to back my sizing die out a bit to keep from resetting the shoulder backl. You could get something like the same problem with a rimmed cartridge if the shoulder was set back too far each time it was sized. Had that problem with the .303 with its notoriously oversized chamber.

Jerry Liles

[BCB]

danski26,
Many years ago when I got one of the 1st 7-30 Waters in my area, I read, and read, and read how to fire form cases. There were many different theories then and I suppose it is the same today…
Anyhow the 1st Waters cases if fire formed was done by annealing the shoulder area of a 30-30 case. Then sizing it just enough in a Waters die so as to allow it to chamber. We were warned in the magazines to let the secondary shoulder hold the case tightly in the chamber. This could be done on T/C’s—not sure about lever guns. Then we used a light charge of Unique (don’t remember how much) and then filled the case to the mouth with Grex or some other buffer and put a wax plug in the end. Then the handgun was held straight up and fire toward the sky!!! Don’t ask me why—but it did work!!!
Well, as time passed, I realized how stupid that ritual was so I sized to get the secondary shoulder and loaded the round with the Hornady 120 grain single shot pistol bullet using the same charge of H-335 that become my pet load for this jacketed bullet. In all honesty, these fire forming cases shot as good as the ones that already fit the chamber and had been fired several times.
Incidentally, you are correct that the 30-30 and Waters headspaces on the rim, but you will most likely do better and get better brass life if you headspace them on the shoulder. I have some fire formed 30-30 cases that have been fired in my T/C 7-30 Waters 21 times. Now it is done with cast bullets and WC-844 powder. Good-luck…BCB

[robertbank]

I figure if it was there for me to learn something, they wouldn't have published it in one of the rags as it would have gone right over the heads of most of their readers

LOL!

Good point. Handloader had an interesting piece on the .303 British. Author spent some time on the history of the Lee-Enfield. Author described the one rifle as being made in "Longbranch" England. This would have come as quite a surprise to those workers who went to work on Longbranch St. in Toronto, Ontario to build the "Longbranch" rifle during the war.

Take Care

Bob

[felix]

Do both: create a false shoulder and stick the boolit into the lands hard. Shoot normal loads. ... felix

[Bucks Owin]

Do both: create a false shoulder and stick the boolit into the lands hard. Shoot normal loads. ... felix

Seating a bullet out to "stick in the lands hard" can raise pressures quite a bit so be forewarned and reduce the powder charge if it's near maximum....

FWIW,

Dennis

[danski26]

BCB
What cast boolit is your pet for the 7-30?

[fourarmed]

There is some truth in what the writer of the article said. Rimless bottleneck cases (or rimmed ones if they have excess head (rim) space) can have the shoulder set back with very light loads. Firing them subsequently with full power loads creates an excess headspace situation, and can lead to incipient case separations. If you have cases that have been shortened from light loads, it is advisable to segregate them, and use them only for light loads, or else reform them by the false shoulder or reversed bullet methods.

You can check for case shortening by using a cartridge headspace gauge, or looking for primer setback.

[BCB]

danski26,
I am using the Lyman 287346 bullet cast with an alloy of 2-1 (ww-#2). I use H-335 (2141 fps) and WC-844 (2044 fps). The bullets are shot “as cast” with only the check sized to 0.285”—just to seat the check in place. It sure is a good shooter my T/C Super 14” topped with a Burris 4x-12x ‘scope. Good-luck...BCB

[Newtire]

Not being the world's leading authority on fire-forming cases..I can say this:
#1=Yes, cases sure do get shorter if fired with loads not developing enough pressure to set them back after the firing pin blow forces them forward.

#2= Having just fireformed some .30-30 Ackley cases, they came out beautiful being formed from new brass with a full load of powder (full load for normal 30-30..NOT the new Ackley load!).
Seems you are going to be sure they fit the chamber that way.

I used a regular cast lead bullet seated hard into the lands...NOT a J-word bullet.

Make sure the chamber is clean or you will have a nice imprint of that powder granule impressed into your case.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
When I first got my 7MM/06 from P.O. Ackley I asked his where I would Get the brass to send to rcbs for the custom dies. HE GRINNED AND TOOK 3 FACTROY 25/06 OUT OF A BOX, PUT THE ACTION IN A VISE & PULLED THE TRIGGER.
Explination the 25 cal slug just rattel down barrel no real pressure.
I went home & fireformed the 300 25/06 rounds the same way, this was a mauser action by the way.
I have fireformed multible 1000's of brass usually w/ lead bullets never had a problem.
Also done it in my 7mm rem mag.