.44-40 and shot-buffer load--Powder?

[FromTheWoods]

A fellow has a .44-40 '92 and is considering using shot buffer in order to get the bullets to group better.

I've used buffer in some of my calibers, but never in a .44-40.

I've also been told to be certain to have more powder in the case than buffer.

So, What type of powder should he try that will fill the case maybe 3/4 or so full?

[Harry O]

Although I have a 44-40 Marlin, I have not tried shot buffer in it. However, I have tried it in two other rifles, the 38-40 and the 32-20. I had been using Bullseye and Unique at mild loads. The cases were 1/3 or so full. Accuracy was so-so. The problem was with flyers that I could not pin down to something I did at the moment I pulled the trigger. If you have a gun in that caliber that will take higher than SAAMI pressures, you can use 2400 or 5744 at a little more than half full, though.

I used shot buffer with light loads and the flyers disappeared. It did not do much to reduce the rest of the group size. You absolutely need to compress the shot buffer when you seat the bullet. I did not do that early on and got a lot of hangfires and a few failures to fire when the powder migrated away from the primer. I dismantled the rest and reloaded with about 3/16" to 1/4" compression when the bullet was seated. I did not have problems after that. After doing this for a little while, I decided the extra work (and it is a lot of extra work) was not worth the increase in accuracy.

In the last couple of years, I bought some Trail Boss. Mild loads are a little more than half the case full. I have loaded the 32-20 in a new rifle with Trail Boss up to the base of the bullet (in several small steps). It was way over what is recommended by the manufacturer, but was accurate enough and there were no signs of excessive pressure. The cost of Trail Boss is such that I will use 2400 instead, though, if the gun can take higher pressures. For lighter loads, I will stay with Trail Boss.

Buy a canister of Trail Boss and try it before using buffer.

[GabbyM]

Best buffer for old BP cartriges is a layer of 2f bp over the smokless.
Not jsut any old combination and I wouldn't know just how to put it together in a 44-40 but it works and is way cool. You of course need a bulky smokelss powder that about fills the case so you can drop in .125" to .250" of BP then compress it down.

[405]

The best I've found for 44-40 and 38-40 loads in older levers and handguns for that matter is Trail Boss under the RIGHT bullet. Even in strong levers like the Win 92 I keep loads relatively mild. Not interested in putting a hot load in a Colt SAA by mistake! Mike Venturino's recent magazine articles should be enough reminder for that as he posted pics of a couple of ruptured Colts :( Best bullet I've used in the 44-40 is flat base, fairly soft at 20:1, 200 gr. sized to .430-.431 over Trail Boss without filler. It is such a bulky powder no need to use filler.

side bar.... I remember getting reamed here on the Forum a couple of years ago for cautioning against folks posting and recommending hot loads for strong Cowboy levers when the real possiblility exists those same cartridges could getted stuffed into a handgun.... an older Colt perhaps? Thanks Mike for the articles!

[runfiverun]

2400 comes fairly close to what he wants.
it ain't sensitive to being tossed about in the case either.
mine does fine from 12 to 15 grs.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I use 2ffg as my filler in the 44/40, works a treat, 3ffg works well also. Saves a lot of fiddling about as well.

[w30wcf]

A few years ago a friend of mine bought an original '92 in .44-40 and was having a bit of trouble getting cast bullets to shoot well. The fact that the bore was not in the greatest condition did not help matters even though the bullets were .002" over the groove diameter.

Since shot buffer has worked for me as a "group tightener" in the past with less than perfect bores, I reloaded some .44-40's using 18/4227 and then filled the case 1/2 way up the neck with PSB. The bullet compressed the shot buffer a bit to hold things in place.

Viola! Groups at 50 yards tightened to about 1 1/2" average from 4+ ".:D

As was mentioned 2400 would probably work just as well. I would suggest 15-16 grs.

w30wcf

[9.3X62AL]

Question on the 44-40 (in an original M-1873) and the use of Trail Boss.

I resolved an earlier issue with boolit base support and the #427098--got a SAECO #446 with crimp groove located properly for the application, and it shoots pretty well--certainly "minute of mule deer" within its humane game-taking range.

Has anyone tried using the "generic formula" that IMR posts for loading Trail Boss in 44-40? By this I refer to the regimen of loading the powder to the boolit base's seated position depth and regarding this amount as "maximum"--then weighing that charge, and using 70% of its weight as a start load. I would be interested to hear what sort of ballistics such loads yield, and whether they would be safe in a good-condition '73. I'm just cutting my teeth on Trail Boss currently.

Also--if any of Mike Venturino's articles dwell on the 44-40, could someone steer me in their direction? (magazine name and issue). Thank you!

[405]

Mike's articles in the Feb issue of Handloader are good. One deals with OOPS reloads and the other primarily with the 44-40's cousin the 38-40. Two different pictures of kaboomed single actions are shown.

The question about a magic % of filled case capacity with Trail Boss-- I dunno? I just load using IMR specs for the handgun type cartridges and have been very happy with the results. Trail Boss, because it is so very bulky, leads many to believe it is a slow burning powder that is safe in all applications. I think that is a wrong assumption. It is a very bulky but fairly fast burning powder. The VihtaVuori burn rate chart lists it along side H Titegroup, A Solo 1000, WW 231 and Bullseye.

The Saeco 446 is a good one for the 44-40. I use the IMR starting Trail Boss load under a fairly soft 200 gr cast with a light crimp into the groove for both carbine and SAA loads including original Win 73s and Win 92s. The data shows the starting load at 7800 psi. I use similar load data from IMR for the 38-40.

The issue about some kind of filler compensating for poor bore condition... dunno about that either... might help?

[9.3X62AL]

There's published data for TB and the 44-40 WCF? I better shake my head harder, my eyes must be stuck. I'll check again.

Can't recall the source, but I've also heard that TB is pretty fast--along about Red Dot speed, and that by weight Red Dot compares closely performance-wise. For whatever that might be worth.

[405]

Try here (IMR is a subd. of Hodgdon). You might have to wade thru the site but it's there. TB data is also listed in the IMR Smokeless Powder Guides in the Cowboy section... the free fliers seen at dealers.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

[FromTheWoods]

Thanks for the comments and ideas.

Any other powders that might work in the .44-40 with buffer?

[Jon K]

Why do you want the buffer in the 44-40???
Want it to group better....fit the boolit to the bore groove, and try different designs as well as different alloy mix.
All of the above listed powders work well in the 44-40 with no filler.

I tested buffer, but not in short a pistol case like 44-40, just 30-30 & 45-70. I found no benefit to using the buffer, and only made a big mess, spilling it all over.

Good Luck,

Jon

[denul]

I haven't tried it in the 44-40, but I have in the 45 colt. I found that I could rig 2 powder measures on the Dillon 1050, one with powder, and one with buffer. The buffer volume was very consistent, and compression is essential. I found that groups tightened, velocities increased and became more consistent, and bore leading, which never was much of a problem, went away completely. I am sure that pressures increased as well. The 1050 looks like an old Herter's shotshell press set up this way, but it sure stopped the fiddling with trying to dispense the buffer. No obvious signs of excess pressure, but I was using a Ruger Blackhawk. Some have gone down a Colt Lightning replica, which I treat as a low pressure action, with no problems. Used Lyman 454190 sized 452 and lubed in both grooves, reluctant to publish loading data, agree with above regarding Mr. Venturino's concerns.

[FromTheWoods]

I've used buffer in .32-40 and .32-20. It worked wonderfully in making these two rifles accurate, reliable shooters.

Mess? An extra powder measure or the proper scoop with a small funnel will keep the bench clean.

The fellow I'm asking for says his bore is poor. I suggested he try buffer prior to reboring/sleeving his rifle. As far as trying different bullets and building his own boolits, I don't know what he is capable/willing to do in that respect. Buffer seemed to be a simple step to take, and it may solve his accuracy problems.

[w30wcf]

Shot buffer has worked to tighten groups in 6 different applications that I have tried it in. The absolute worse case was in an original .45-60 M1876 Winchester.

The bore was in horrible condition. Groups @ 25 yards were close to 12" with all bullets keyholing.!

With the addition of shot buffer the rifle grouped 5 shots in 1 1/2" with all bullets going straight in!:mrgreen:

w30wcf

[Grapeshot]

I've used shot buffer in several calibers and found that a card wad between the powder and buffer ellimnate any melting of the buffer. Works great with light loads in large cases, just make sure you use enough buffer to compress the buffer when you seat the bullet.

[rollmyown]

Given a "light" load of trail boss generates a pressure of about 7800 psi, does anyone know how much pressure the original loading of 40 gn of black with a 200 gn slug generated?(44/40)

How does velocity compare? (trail boss V original BP loading? )

Is pressure the only determinant or safety (in old guns originally designed for black) or are there other factors at play that I'm unaware of, that could make smokeless unsafe for older guns? (perhaps the rate at which the pressure rises?)

Rob

[rollmyown]

Previous post should read "determinant of safety"

[Dale53]

rollmyown;
It is NOT recommended to use smokeless at ANY level with 1st Generation Colts. They are BLACK POWDER ONLY. It is NOT just the pressure but the way pressure is generated between black and smokeless. The pressure curves are completely different.

FWIW
Dale53

[rollmyown]

It's not a colt but a '73 win. I see other guys have been using trailboss in theese. Still a no go in your opinion?