Commercial Cast Bullets vs. Homemade - Sizing Question.

[TORCHrider]

Question:

I have had good accuracy in all my guns (9mm, .38, .40, .45, etc.) by buying "standard sized" commercial cast bullets. By standard, I mean whatever the commercial caster sells (i.e. .358 for .38).

Update: I should have prefaced my question by saying, I do a lot of shooting from a holster, double taps, silhouette, self-defense type of practice. For this type of shooting I dont need minute of gnats @ss accuracy.

Is there any reason I wouldn't cast or size my homemade boolits to these same "standard" sizes?

:lovebooli

[BABore]

Question:

I have had good accuracy in all my guns (9mm, .38, .40, .45, etc.) by buying "standard sized" commercial cast bullets. By standard, I mean whatever the commercial caster sells (i.e. .358 for .38).

Is there any reason I wouldn't cast or size my homemade boolits to these same "standard" sizes?

:lovebooli

It depends what you consider "good accuracy" is and if you can and want to improve upon it. I don't consider a 1 inch, 5-shot, 25 yard group, from a rest as even a qualifier. When they run 1/2 to 5/8 inches, then I take it out to 50 and 100 yards to separate the winners from losers. Others here have even more stringent personal requirements. You will always do better by using a boolit that fits, is of the proper alloy for the load, and uses a lube that produces the best accuracy first, and lack of leading second. Every gun/caliber will likely require its own set of variable adjustments.

[RobS]

Accuracy has so many faces and with that everyone has different standards as to what accuracy is. For example a deer hunter that shoots manufatured ammunition once or twice a year is usually happy with a 2 inch group at 100 to 200 yards as they will be able to hit what they want etc. Others are bench rest shooters and are more interested in shooting sub MOA and the tighter the groups the happier they are. I have a friend who loves to shoot into the same hole at 200 yards with his 308 FN sniper rifle.

Anyway, you should try to first slug your intended firearm to find out the diameters or your bore or in the case of a revolver the bore and the cylinder throats and then size your bullets to what "fits" your gun. If not this then measure the commercial cast bullets and then size to what they are if you are having acceptable accuracy etc. I personally like to size cast bullets to fit the gun I'm shooting. Usually .001" over groove diameter in my semi autos, .002" over in my revolvers or at whatever my cylinder throats are slugged out at, .001-.002" over in my bolt action rifles, and .002" over in my lever actions unless it won't chamber and then .001".

I do not like to size a cast bullet at the same groove diameter because it is more difficult to seal up gas blow by etc. which can lead to leading and poor accuracy. NOT THAT this can't be done, but I rather not go there unless I have to. Bullet Fit is King.

[gray wolf]

Update: I should have prefaced my question by saying, I do a lot of shooting from a holster, double taps, silhouette, self-defense type of practice. For this type of shooting I dont need minute of gnats @ss accuracy.
If you are happy with what you have--and it sounds like you are, then carry on.
If you are not--the boys have told you what to do.
For your kind of shooting a hit is a hit--correct?


Is there any reason I wouldn't cast or size my homemade boolits to these same "standard" sizes?

If you don't get leading and you hit the bad guy( target ) then it sounds like you are doing great. Size em the same.
Why bother with all that other stuff, load and bang away. I am sure you can put 10 into a quarter size hole at 7 or 10 yards if you shoot a little slower. Like if you were after a bad guy who had a hostage and only could see his ear.
If not, then again think about what has been said.

[fredj338]

It depends what you consider "good accuracy" is and if you can and want to improve upon it. I don't consider a 1 inch, 5-shot, 25 yard group, from a rest as even a qualifier. When they run 1/2 to 5/8 inches, then I take it out to 50 and 100 yards to separate the winners from losers. Others here have even more stringent personal requirements. You will always do better by using a boolit that fits, is of the proper alloy for the load, and uses a lube that produces the best accuracy first, and lack of leading second. Every gun/caliber will likely require its own set of variable adjustments.

Maybe true for rifles but few can shoot 1" groups from a rest @ 25yds w/ most open sighted handguns. If my loads will do 2" @ 25yds, I'm quite happy w/ that in a handgun. Since he was talking handguns, 50 & 100yds is just not feasable for most open sighted, accurate shooting?

[gray wolf]

45 Acp makes a half inch hole all by it's lonesom self. I have been shooting 45 years and have never seen it. In fact I think 1/2 " from a ransom rest is rare. DOABLE but rare.
Ain't sayin it can't be done now, Just sayin it would take one hell of a load and one hell of a pistol/revolver to do it, Lets not forget the shooter, so I take it with a grain of salt.

--------------------------------------------STRETCHIN IT-------------------------------

[jdgabbard]

My 38spl load will do .7" at 25 yards. Will yours? Its all about making sure everything is up to the task. Same way with a defense load. If I don't feel it is accurate enough for my sidearm, then I look for a different load...

[gray wolf]

Wow less than 3/4 of an inch--now that is shooting. Gives me something to go for this summer. Looks like you have done your home work--good job.
Oh! and no mine wont shoot less than 3/4" at 25 yards, and I am the first to admit it.
But I am sure going to give it a go. I am sure I can do it---------------------once.

[Gohon]

My 38 special will do .357 at 25 yards. Yours must be key holeing. Problem is I can't. Sure wish I could shoot like some of you guys. Now to the OP's question.......there is no reason why you could not cast your own and do as well with your casts as the commercial stuff. Self defense and practicing draw and double tap at 25 yards and putting them in a 4-5 inch circle will make the bad guy just as dead as the 1/2 group with a rest at 25 yards. Now of course one could carry a rest around with him but..........

[batman]

Never use a reload for self defence.
A lawyer will eat you up in Court.
I took a course at the police academy and a lawyer talked for a hour on this and
told us that a good shoot ok but in civil court ,a good lawyer will tell how you spend hours or days making loads just for killing people.Even if you win you will still have costs lawyer fees court cost and time form work which could add up to tens of thousands.

[Bass Ackward]

Question:

I have had good accuracy in all my guns (9mm, .38, .40, .45, etc.) by buying "standard sized" commercial cast bullets. By standard, I mean whatever the commercial caster sells (i.e. .358 for .38).

Update: I should have prefaced my question by saying, I do a lot of shooting from a holster, double taps, silhouette, self-defense type of practice. For this type of shooting I dont need minute of gnats @ss accuracy.

Is there any reason I wouldn't cast or size my homemade boolits to these same "standard" sizes?

:lovebooli


Most commercial casters size in many different sizes for each caliber. Retailers only tend to stock one diameter.

If you are happy, why oh why would you change?

In fact, loading a larger bullet can actually cause problems that would have to be corrected such as belling more that can reduce case life or shave bases. Make difficulty chambering sooner from gummed up chambers / actions forcing you to clean sooner, etc.

What will happen though is that eventually you will read something here that will plant a seed and start you down the dark path. :grin:

[Gohon]

For more years than I can remember I've asked the question show me a case where a person was convicted of a wrongful shooting because of reloads they had made, or show me a case even where reloads were used as a defense by the bad guy. No one has ever been able to show me these things except for a friend of a friend of a friend said so. Even if a lawyer tried to inject the reload reasoning, you are not in court for reloads but because a gun was used in self defense. We are not police officers who are required by written regulations on what type of gun and ammo they can carry in their sidearm, which could get them in hot water if they deviate from those regulations. Far as I'm concerned this is nothing but internet gossip that refuses to die. But, one could always show me a case and prove me wrong.

[Dale53]

But, one could always show me a case and prove me wrong.

Or NOT!?!?!?

Dale53

[Willbird]

45 Acp makes a half inch hole all by it's lonesom self. I have been shooting 45 years and have never seen it. In fact I think 1/2 " from a ransom rest is rare. DOABLE but rare.
Ain't sayin it can't be done now, Just sayin it would take one hell of a load and one hell of a pistol/revolver to do it, Lets not forget the shooter, so I take it with a grain of salt.

--------------------------------------------STRETCHIN IT-------------------------------

I have made 1-1/4 groups at 50 yards with five cast 45 acp bullets from a ransom rest. And with that same load and gun from a rested position I can hit a soda can at 50 enough times to make it get boring. 44man shoots some teeny groups with just a red sight, which offers no magnification...and I can hit quite a few 12 gauge hulls at 50 yards with a model 41 from a rested position and using a tasco pro point with the dot intensity set to "1" which is a tiny dot, probably 1/8 - 1/4 moa maybe.

As to reloads for self defense, I agree, I have literally thousands of reloads, and only relatively few +P premium self defense cartridges, a GOOD lawyer could string me up for using "special" more destructive ammo(+p premium self defense cartridges) for self defense.

Bill

[Bad Water Bill]

When I took my concealed carry course last year the instructor was a retired CA criminal lawyer. He said that in all his years he had NEVER heard of one case where the type of ammo was asked.

What he did say was if you shoot a bad guy be prepared to spend at least 10K defending yourself in court for shooting the bad guy. [smilie=b:

[Bullshop]

Maybe better you pay $10.000 in legal defence for the dimise if the BG than for your family to pay $10,000 for your funeral.
Maybe better too for all the other families that he would have hurt if you had not stopped him.
There is a cost for everything in blood, sweat, tears, or $. $ seems to be about the easiest of all.
If you knew for cartain that if you gave a $10.000 donation one BG in your town would be elinimated would you donate?
Think about it!
BIC/BS

[DLCTEX]

What would probably be worse is to use a "Cop Killer" factory round.

[TORCHrider]

Thanks for the info guys.

I do not use handloads for self defense, only practice. However, its not because I am afraid of being prosecuted for creating "Killer" bullets.

Also, My needs do not require 3/4" accuracy at 25 yards and even if they did, I couldn't shoot that well with a pistol.

I will try loading some of the bullets sized the way I have purchased them in the past and go from there.

[TDB9901]

If it ain't broke...........

[Wayne Smith]

Massad Ayoub has one case posted on his website - a guy's wife shot herself with his light handloads. Police and court tested original ammo from those cases, dispersal data suggested she was shot from distance rather than self inflicted. He was convicted.

Highly unusual, specific situation case. But then, aren't they all?

[thx997303]

He was convicted of Manslaughter and sentenced to 6 years.

He served 3 and was released on parole.

And some states have laws that specifically protect the shooter so long as the shooting was deemed justified.

[Gohon]

Massad Ayoub has one case posted on his website - a guy's wife shot herself with his light handloads. Police and court tested original ammo from those cases, dispersal data suggested she was shot from distance rather than self inflicted. He was convicted.

That sounds more like a case of possible murder or attempted murder, not a case of self defense. Not even close to being the same thing. Actually I've heard from others that Ayoub was the source of this rumor and that article may be it's roots.


What he did say was if you shoot a bad guy be prepared to spend at least 10K defending yourself in court for shooting the bad guy

Bill, a lot of states and mine being one of them have passed a no retreat bill for personal defense. What this means in my state is if you are involved in a shooting because you thought your life or another persons life was in danger, the on scene investigator which will be the local police will make a determination at the scene as to if the evidence shows you were justified or not. If the on scene investigator determines you broke a law or you committed a crime then he can arrest you. However, if he determines preliminary evidence shows you were within your right, he cannot only not arrest you but he cannot confiscate your gun. Either way the case will be reviewed by the DA and should he further determine you were within your right then no one, and I mean no one can bring civil charges against you. This means the family members of the bad guy are just SOL. This law carries over to the streets if you have a CCW and not just on your property or home which is the Castle law. My state has had the Castle law for some time now but just brought in the no retreat law a few years ago. Needless to say the bad guys don't seem to surface that much around here anymore.

[fredj338]

Thanks for the info guys.

I do not use handloads for self defense, only practice. However, its not because I am afraid of being prosecuted for creating "Killer" bullets.

Also, My needs do not require 3/4" accuracy at 25 yards and even if they did, I couldn't shoot that well with a pistol.

I will try loading some of the bullets sized the way I have purchased them in the past and go from there.
Not to worry, most people can't either. Shooting w/ a Ransom rest is a good measure of a load & guns accuracy, but you are shooting, the machine is. Best I have ever been able to do is 1" @ 25yds rested w/ one of my better 1911s & 200grLSWC. It's rare though, everything has to be just right.

[Recluse]

Either way the case will be reviewed by the DA and should he further determine you were within your right then no one, and I mean no one can bring civil charges against you. This means the family members of the bad guy are just SOL. This law carries over to the streets if you have a CCW and not just on your property or home which is the Castle law. My state has had the Castle law for some time now but just brought in the no retreat law a few years ago. Needless to say the bad guys don't seem to surface that much around here anymore.

Same thing here south of the Red River.

We've had a number of righteous shootings here in the state that have gathered publicity--and none of the righteous shooters were charged by the grand jury. One shooter's victim's surviving family DID try to file a wrongful death suit, but it never got off the ground, and if I'm not mistaken, the delta-alpha ambulance chaser that filed it got admonished by the judge for not knowing the law.

Most of the shootings we have nowadays are simple misdemeanor murders, which I'm all for and support wholeheartedly.

:coffee: