Powder comparison tables?

[ChaplainJohn]

I'm sure that if I search this forum long enough I'll find the answer to my question but it's late, I'm tired and grumpy, and since this is my first post maybe I won't have to endure too many barbs.

Now, my question: Where can a guy find information on burn rates and comparisons of the various powders? I had been using bullseye and switched to 231 when I couldn't get any bullseye. Now it seems that the supply of 231 has dried up[smilie=b:

[dale2242]

john, just use Google search and type in " powder burn rate charts". You will get a bunch of site with charts......dale

[wiljen]

Hp38 is the same stuff as ww231 if you can find it. NOT just close, comes from the same hopper.

[dromia]

Welcome aboard Chaplainjohn. :drinks:

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Hullo Chaplinjohn, +1 on the google search, welcome and good luck.

[mtgrs737]

Welcome to the forum Chaplinjohn! Wiljen is correct about Hodgon HP38 being the same as WW231 so keep an eye out for it as it is not as popular as WW231 is for some reason and might be some left on the shelves. I picked up two 1 pounders the other day that way.

[deltaenterprizes]

RCBS loading manual has one in the section called"Powder", most of the manuals have them. Red Dot is close to Bullseye.

[Lead Fred]

Funny part is there are 3 different burn rate charts on the internet.
All are close, but slightly out of order.

[felix]

Close because there are different lots for the same powder designation. The bad part about the tables is there are no demarcation lines between "like" application speeds. An example, there is a large difference in speed between BlueDot and 2400. There is only one powder, namely WW630, that is exactly between them, and it is now defunct, leaving a serious hole in the tables. No tables "show" this as a hole. ... felix

Another hole created as of late is the movement of RL7, initially a 5 percent nitroglycerin content and now a 10 percenter. The speed of the initial version was a very fast 3031, and the current version is very close to 4198. That is a significant difference for the 30-30 capacity case. The advantage of the movement is that now RL7 can be used in the straight wall pistol cases, and is about 3 grains within WW680 which is going by the wayside. ... felix

[jimkim]

Close because there are different lots for the same powder designation. The bad part about the tables is there are no demarcation lines between "like" application speeds. An example, there is a large difference in speed between BlueDot and 2400. There is only one powder, namely WW630, that is exactly between them, and it is now defunct, leaving a serious hole in the tables. No tables "show" this as a hole. ... felix

Another hole created as of late is the movement of RL7, initially a 5 percent nitroglycerin content and now a 10 percenter. The speed of the initial version was a very fast 3031, and the current version is very close to 4198. That is a significant difference for the 30-30 capacity case. The advantage of the movement is that now RL7 can be used in the straight wall pistol cases, and is about 3 grains within WW680 which is going by the wayside. ... felix

Which chart did that come from? The Blue Dot, 2400 thing.

http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html
http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html
http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/powder/powder.htm
http://www.ramshot.com/powders/burnrate.php
http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp

[testhop]

chaplianjohn
graf has bullseye in stock
and welcome aboard

[felix]

Jimkim, what you see is NO demarcation line in each of those charts. So, all of the charts are valid as for as a listing of powders in sequence. In other words, any one listed between BlueDot and 2400 are either closer to BlueDot or to 2400, leaving a wide hole between the latter two. ... felix

[HORNET]

As a cautionary note, part of the reason for the differences between the charts is that the relative speeds can vary depending on the application. Not all the charts were tested using the same test protocols and your results can very easily vary. Start low and work up ALWAYS even if you can find published data.
BTW, there was a warning about Blue Dot in some applications a couple of months ago....

[jimkim]

Thanks Felix. I've often wished for a chart with a burn meter, but I fear that would be close to impossible. I do like how Ed Harris and others can quote percentages. A chart with the relative percentages(Blue Dot is X% slower than Unique) would be good, but where would you start?

[ChaplainJohn]

I thank all who replied. I've been reloading for some time but there has been a fairly long gap between the first group of years at it and my recent restart (about 18 months ago). I've used up all the old supplies and am trying to find replacements. What with fixed income, replacement costs and the fact that I have less time for casting Boolits now than I did when I was working for a living it is getting tough.

I have to admit that when I read the first post I had to slap myself in the forehead and say "DUH!"... What can I say?

To those who weighed in with the warnings... Thank You, they are duly noted.

I'll be lurking around in the background for a while taking Mr. Lincoln's advice relative to "It being better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

With that I'll say "Blessings",
Chaplain John

[KYCaster]

... I have less time for casting Boolits now than I did when I was working for a living...
Chaplain John


So tell us John, how did you find time for retirement????

Welcome to the madness!!! :veryconfu

Jerry

[StarMetal]

Close because there are different lots for the same powder designation. The bad part about the tables is there are no demarcation lines between "like" application speeds. An example, there is a large difference in speed between BlueDot and 2400. There is only one powder, namely WW630, that is exactly between them, and it is now defunct, leaving a serious hole in the tables. No tables "show" this as a hole. ... felix

Another hole created as of late is the movement of RL7, initially a 5 percent nitroglycerin content and now a 10 percenter. The speed of the initial version was a very fast 3031, and the current version is very close to 4198. That is a significant difference for the 30-30 capacity case. The advantage of the movement is that now RL7 can be used in the straight wall pistol cases, and is about 3 grains within WW680 which is going by the wayside. ... felix

Felix,

Maybe you would like to peruse the burn chart included before you decide where the burn rate of WW630 is.

Joe

http://www.gswagner.com/bigreloading/components/powderburnrate.html

[SciFiJim]

Which chart did that come from? The Blue Dot, 2400 thing.


http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html
http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html
http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/powder/powder.htm
http://www.ramshot.com/powders/burnrate.php
http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp
And I will add another.
http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/pdfs/Burning-Rate-Chart.pdf


So, which one do you use? They seem to vary slightly. It would be nice if there was an industry standard for burn rate measurement. Like, When a standard amount of powder "Z" is burned, it fills "x" standard volume at "y" rate and to "p" pressure (in psi). And then publish what the standards are so that we can use that for our own choices for reloading.

[wiljen]

It would be nice if they'd do that Jim, the problem is, powders behave differently under differing conditions so no single set of conditions would be valid for all applications. Maybe if they could make several charts using standards (example) cartridges this would be useful.

[deltaenterprizes]

Felix, I think Accurate Arms is making a version of 630

[StarMetal]

Felix, I think Accurate Arms is making a version of 630

Yes I believe No 7 and No 9, depending on whether you want to believe Felix saying the old WW 630 being inbetween Bluedot and 2400. According to the chart I posted it shows WW 630 and 630P as being slightly faster then Bluedot. So in that respect No 7 would be the closest.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, that chart would NOT indicate a proper placement of 630 in straight wall pistol cases. WithIn small bore rifle cases, like the 222, the 630 speed approaches that of BlueDot , still being about a half grain slower. This is a good reason to have multiple charts when doing research. Powder transient speeds can change dramatically with neck angle and bore diameter. Glad to see that table, Joe. ... felix

[wiljen]

Joe, that chart would NOT indicate a proper placement of 630 in straight wall pistol cases. WithIn small bore rifle cases, like the 222, the 630 speed approaches that of BlueDot , still being about a half grain slower. This is a good reason to have multiple charts when doing research. Powder transient speeds can change dramatically with neck angle and bore diameter. Glad to see that table, Joe. ... felix

Kinda goes back to the idea Jim and I were batting back and forth. Powders are application sensitive so we'd need a burn rate chart per cartridge if you really wanted them to be 100% correct.

[StarMetal]

Felix,

I agree with Wiljen. It depends on the application that the powder is used in. With having said that I believe the 630 powder was marketed at the pistol crowd.

Yeah I wanted a chart that showed surplus powders and found the one I posted. I like to check a multitude of charts to get an average of burning rates. I understand also that these charts couldn't possibly give a rate for every different application.

Joe

[TDC]

You guys are way over my head when it comes to a breakdown and analysis of modern powders.

For me, this discussion makes a perfect case for finding powers I like for all the calibers I use, then buying quantities of the same lot that will last me at least two decades or more.

I still have large quantities of the old 2400, 630, H4831, H4895, and IMR4350 lots I've used for almost 30 years. I'm down to 3 pounds of the same lot of old Norma MRP. MRP is the very best I've found for my No.1 26" BBL 270 and I have yet to find a modern powder to replicate its accuracy or velocity. RL22 is supposed to be the identical product but from my experience it isn't even close with comparable bullet/powder/primer/case combinations when tested at the range.

Trying to keep up with all the lot changes and company mergers, sometimes appearing to create new "formulas" for the same named product drives me nuts! It seems every time I have a favorite junk food or powder it soon becomes discontinued or "slightly modified" in a way that I find not useful.

I have never had powder or primers that were kept in a controlled environment for well over thirty years fail me or not perform as well as the day I purchased them. Maybe it's time to throw out all the old burn rate data and start over. With modern advancements in technology that enables mfgs to evaluate powder and its performance more precisely, that could eliminate much of the current confusion and frustration.

I think the best policy is to encourage new hand-loading shooters and hunters to buy all the powder they can afford of their favorites from one lot. Seems to me that's the only way we're going to find true and reasonable consistency with powders.... and now I'm hearing there may be some ignition inconsistencies with some new primers!!! Geesh!!

JMHO and 2c....

[wiljen]

TDC, look at Ramshot Hunter or Vihta N550 in your 270. Either should be capable of near the old MRP numbers.

[jimkim]

Felix, I think Accurate Arms is making a version of 630

Your Right. Accurate 1680 is supposed to be very close.

[wiljen]

Your Right. Accurate 1680 is supposed to be very close.

AA 1680 is actually a very close copy of Winchester 680 not 630. Don't use 630 with 1680 data or you will have a major problem. 630 is much closer to AA7 than AA1680.

[castormd]

I have a couple pounds of 630, which I used back in the seventies. A guy gave it to me and it looks and smells okay.

The powder is more modern than the 70's vintage, but, I just loaded some starting loads for the 44 mag using 16 and 17 grains of 630 behind a 232 boolit and then I did a couple 265 boolits @ 17 grains for my SBH.

Sooo, with the remote possibility of SEE mentioned above should I pull these loads?

As I said I used a bunch of this 630 powder back in the seventies.

[wiljen]

as long as the powder has not deteriorated, I see no reason why loads that were safe then would not be now. I'd work up to my listed data again as the powder is likely more dry now than it was then as it has lost moisture over the years, but my guess would be it is still within a grain of where it was then.

[castormd]

wiljen,
Thanks for the reply. I guess I should slow down when posting as when I went back and re-read what I wrote it can be misinterpreted.

The 630 powder (that was given to me by a reliable reloader) is probably 15 yrs.to 20 old, not 35. I do have some red dot that is about 35 yrs, old and although it is a little smokey going off, it is just fine.I'm trying to use all this old stuff up.

If you read the way I wrote about the 630 , it sounds like it is 35 years old. Whatever. I'll be trying them out this week, hopefully. It is a shame to load good, but obsolete powder into my developer loads, as if I hit a sweet spot, I may not be able to duplicate. BUT, Waste not want not.

But then again they are "go to the range and plink loads, not Camp Perry competition loads. The boolits are rcbs 44-250 which weigh in at 265.

Also some rcbs 44-225 which have had a group of variations done to them (hp) so I want to chrono the bunch and water jug test a few.:cast_boolits:

P.S. Thanks for the reloaders reference. Rich

[nanuk]

one of my concerns is the use/misuse of the numbering system.

on occasion folks mention #7... Which one? RL7? RX7? AA7?

there are other duplicates. I'd like to see a table explaining each number, manufactureer. Then I can compare them to the table of same powder/different sellers. (like H414 W760)

I get very confused sometimes, as we have so many out there.

[firefly1957]

I have the first can of powder I BOUGHT IN 1971 (HERCO) I did not care for it in 20 ga and used green dot instead. it is still good today. There were two 630 powders if I remember correctly sometimes one is called 630-P I used it in 38 special loads in the 70's.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I just stumbled onto this thread...and it's in the TEST section ???
it is a great source of burn rate charts.

I nominate this for 'sticky' status in the 'Canister & Surplus Powder' section.
Jon

[No_1]

Moved!

[Balkandom]

Hey folks,

It seems like there are some who know about pulldown powder here! I have a keg each of WC 846 and Accurate "Data 2200" powders. Does anyone know what they roughly equate to?

Thank you,

Mike

[SciFiJim]

Wideners has carried 846. http://wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=6673&dir=278|283|999
Looks like just the thing for .223 and .308
Also found this.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p201/djpullen/table.jpg (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p201/djpullen/table.jpg)


Data 2200 info is here.
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DP2200.pdf (http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/DP2200.pdf)

[riverboat]

I cannot find Red Dot. Is there a equivalent load to the 13gr. Red Dot .30-06 load? Thanks in advance.

[Maven]

I cannot find Red Dot. Is there a equivalent load to the 13gr. Red Dot .30-06 load? Thanks in advance.

C.E. Harris also recommended 16 gr. Alliant (nee Hercules) 2400.

[Bill*B]

I found this link (http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/equivalents.asp) (from a powder maker) rather interesting.

[nvreloader]

I have a file/list that I made in Excel format,
for the burning rates of powders in closed bomb tests,
also in the same file there is a Heat index of the heat units of that powder,
and powder heat of explosion.

Tia,
Don

[nvreloader]

I have attempted to contact 2 different Mod's about posting this info,
and have not received a reply back,
so I believe that it OK to post this chart.
I guess I'll find out??????

Here is a chart I made up, of the 140+ Us powders, it is current as of 2015.
Sorry for the rough formatting, but I lack the computer skills to understand
the proper formatting for this site.
I used MS XL formatting and I am able to search thru each column for any powder I am checking on.

When posting here, using the XL format, it don't look as nice, as on my plastic's box screen.

Burn Rate Factor--------------------------Powder Heat of explosion---------Ratio of specific Heat
Fast to Slow-------------------------------Hot to Cold-------------------------Hot to Cold
Powder Name-------------BR-----------Powder Name-------------PHE ------Powder Name -----------RSH

Hodgdon Clay-------------6.7000------Alliant Bullseye-----------5158-----VIHTAVUORI N540--------1.2010
Accurate Nitro 100-------4.8333-------Alliant Power Pistol-------5150----Alliant Power Pistol--------1.2070
Accurate Solo 1000-------4.8000------Accurate Nitro 100-------4890-----Accurate Nitro 100--------1.2080
VIHTAVUORI N310-------4.7000------Accurate 5744-------------4713----Alliant Bullseye------------1.2090
Hodgdon Tite Group------4.1500------Alliant Unique-------------4550----Accurate 5744-------------1.2110
Hodgdon HP 38-----------3.7500------Alliant Red Dot------------4538----Accurate No 2-------------1.2110
RAMSHOT ZIP------------3.6500 ------Accurate No 2-------------4530----Accurate No 5-------------1.2160
WINCHESTER 231--------3.6500------Accurate No 5-------------4500----Alliant Herco---------------1.2180
Alliant Bullseye-----------3.6300------Alliant Herco--------------4450-----RAMSHOT SILHOUETTE---1.2180
VIHTAVUORI N320-------3.5850------Alliant Blue Dot-----------4380 ----VIHTAVUORI N150--------1.2180
Accurate Solo 1250-------3.5714-----Hodgdon Universal--------4350----WINCHESTER WAP--------1.2180
IMR Trailboss-------------3.4631------Alliant Green Dot---------4330-----VIHTAVUORI 3N37--------1.2186
VV N32C TIN STAR-------3.4631------WINCHESTER 296--------4300-----Alliant Red Dot------------1.2190
Accurate No 2-------------3.4524-----Accurate Solo 1000-------4250-----VIHTAVUORI N350-------1.2191
Alliant Red Dot------------3.4228-----Hodgdon Clay-------------4250-----Hodgdon H110------------1.2200
NORMA R1----------------3.2000------Alliant 2400---------------4220-----Alliant Blue Dot-----------1.2201
VIHTAVUORI N330-------3.1000------VIHTAVUORI N310-------4170-----Accurate Solo 1000-------1.2210
WINCHESTER WAP-------2.9500------Accurate No 7------------4160-----Hodgdon Clay-------------1.2218
RAMSHOT SILHOUETTE--2.9400------VIHTAVUORI 3N37-------4160-----Alliant Green Dot---------1.2220
VIHTAVUORI N340-------2.9200------RAMSHOT SILHOUETTE--4150-----Alliant Unique-------------1.2220

HFSO,

Tia,
Don

[jonp]

I'm sorry, Don but I don't understand your chart and the numbers.

[nvreloader]

Jonp

From this small sample of data, it is hard to understand, so I'll give you an example,

Lets say you are using xyz powder,
you find thru testing that this powder is just a hair too fast/slow for what you want to do,
or you want to see if there is another powder that is the same spec's, or very close to your powder etc.

You can go to this chart and see which powder is on each side of that powder,
the chart gives you the spec's of each powder as used in reloading ammo etc,
not a generic SWAG that is posted some where, ie, H110 and Win 296, are the same,
you will find that they are not, if you compare the same spec's of each powder etc.

There is 3 sections of this chart, that is listed below,
(I can't get the explanation of each of these areas posted with the proper section because of the formatting etc,)

Burning Rate of EACH powder =,
Powder heat of explosion =,
Ratio of specific heat of that powder =.

I am asking for some HELP from some members that knows/understands how to format this chart for posting,
so the total info can be posted here for everyone use etc.

Once this chart is properly formatted and all the info/spec's are posted,
it will be a lot more clearer to understand and use, IMHO.
Once posted, there is a good chance that it will be made a sticky,
via info from a MOD, I just received. :grin:

This chart covers the 140+ US powders available.

So, can some member HELP me with the formatting etc,
and get it posted here??

You'll have the 1st copy, :D

Tia,
Don




I'm sorry, Don but I don't understand your chart and the numbers.

[JSnover]

Another chart I'd like to see would compare each by volume so I can try to maintain approximate load density in a couple of my target rifles. My Lee 'slide rule' is handy for this but it was printed in 1995 and doesn't include anything introduced since then.

[Jtarm]

https://www.grafs.com/uploads/technical-resource-pdf-file/14.pdf



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pepe Ray]

I hope this thread is appropriate for my question.
Has anyone determined a significant difference between Re 7 and AA7 ?

[farmbif]

aa7 is a pistol cartridge powder, good for 9mm Luger, 40 s&w, 45 auto, 357 mag, 41 mag, 44 mag and more
re7 is a rifle cartridge powder excellent for many straight wall rifle calibers such as 375 Winchester,444 marlin, 45-70, also good in many other cast rifle loads

[Pepe Ray]

I've been through this thread, twice, printed off both of the tables, trying to make sense of the information found there. I have concluded that

I have too much time on my hands!!!!!![smilie=2:

[Maven]

Try this (from Handloader magazine) and scroll down to post #9: https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/new-burn-rate-chart.4342/

[Krag 1901]

I like the way the ADI chart lists the powders. I was fooling about with 4198 range powders in my .30's and found that my results tracked their data almost exactly. I was looking for a slightly slower than H/IMR-4198 for 155-200 grain boolets and I could have found it from that chart much quicker had I known about it!
Still I got to shoot a lot of boolets and had a lot of fun doing my testing.

[Maven]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?74467-Powder-comparison-tables

[Casper29]

I'm sure that if I search this forum long enough I'll find the answer to my question but it's late, I'm tired and grumpy, and since this is my first post maybe I won't have to endure too many barbs.

Now, my question: Where can a guy find information on burn rates and comparisons of the various powders? I had been using bullseye and switched to 231 when I couldn't get any bullseye. Now it seems that the supply of 231 has dried up[smilie=b:


Any of the newer reloading manuals usually have a burn rate chart in the back

[scottyp99]

Why does this thread have a link to itself?

Scotty

[BLAHUT]

You can look at burn rates, and use powders in the same catorgory, just start low and work up???