Newbie with a few furnace & lyman sabot questions

[RaymondMillbrae]

Howdiy, folks.

This is my first post here, so be gentle with me.

I have been lurking around, and have seen some pretty cool things on this site.

I'm impressed...and interested. (A new hobby for this gadget guy)!

Anyhoo...I am a 3-gunner, and am interested in casting my own Lyman sabot slugs. I have been reloading them for a while, but decided, "Why pay for them, when I can invest very little into the tools and cast them myself"?

So here I'ze be.

Long story short, I have read a few things about the different methods to cast the Lyman 525-grain sabots - and it seems like there are two camps in regards to the casting method. One camp says, USE THE BOTTOM SPOUT FURNACE. And the other camp says, USE THE LADEL METHOD.

This is where I am scratching my head.

I read somewhere on this forum that using one or the other is more beneficial to larger (over 500 grain) slug loads. Something about the lead starting to cool before the last of it has been poured.

If you have any insights on this, please be specific with your reply's, and back it up with facts...and not regurgitated information yall have read somewhere without thinking it through.

Your responses will help me to determine which furnace I will purchase. It will be one of the three below.

LEE PRO 4 20-POUND FURNACE (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=645810) (700 watts, with pour spout).

LEE MAGNUM MELTER FURNACE (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=709235) (700 watts, no pour spout).

LEE PRODUCTION POT 4 FURNACE (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=637732) (500 watts, pour spout that customers say continually drips).

Seems to me that the higher wattage will melt the lead fastrer, so I am leaning towards the 700 watt models. But I am still undecided on either a "pour spout" model, or a "NON pour spout" model.

I am also curious about the LYMAN SABOT SLUG MOLD (http://www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1244112). Is there a place yall can recommend who sells them cheap, or that has them on sale, or that can be purchased with an existing discount coupon? (I believe I have a website saved in my FAVOURITES files somewhere, who sold them for $47.00).

And very lastly, is there any video of someone specifically casting a Lyman 525-grain sabot slug?

I have looked all over the web, and cannot find a video of this. There are countless videos on casting bullets, but not on the Lyman sabot slugs. Any links would be appreciated.

Thanks again, and I hope I can reciprocate the favor sometime in the near future.

In Christ: Raymond

[Ed Barrett]

I used a ladel for 25 years, about 20 years ago I used a friends bottom pour. The next day I bought one for myself and have not used a ladel since.

[ovendoctor]

morning ray

I use the LEE dripomatic bottom pour pot

there are ways to fix the drip[not much fun wen ya get splattered with drips]

the 525 Lyman is one of the mold designs that make the company shine

I have recently coated the mold with kroyl and it makes a big difference in production

don't need the mold hammer anymore,they just drop out now

as far as purchasing goes midsouth was the least expensive place on line

hope this helps PM me if ya have anymore questions

Doc.:redneck:

[Blammer]

I cast with a dipper for a long time then got a Lee PRO 4-20 bottom pour.

The only facts I have are my experience, sorry. :)

In my experience with big boolit casting if I were going to use my ladle and pour them that way I would need to get the lead really hot. I needed the extra heat so that the lead would not solidify until I got the mould filled. I also had to pressure pour to make it work well. (pressure pouring when using a ladle, you have to have an "enclosed" ladle, then hold it directly to the opening on the mould while pouring it in) I needed to do both to get good fill out.

With my bottom pour, I can easily turn the heat up but not much more is needed, and the pressure from pouring from the bottom is all I need to quickly fill big boolits. The flow can be adjusted and I just opened it up to pour more faster with my big boolits. (350gr and up for me)

In short, it can be done with both, but the technique varies, for simplicity, I would recommend the bottom pour. You can alway dip out of the top of the bottom pour, but you can't pour out of a dipper pot. :)

I have a lyman 20ga slug mould, and am currently working on a decent load for it for my NEF slug gun.

Good luck

Darrell

[jsizemore]

If your just getting into casting, then thinking your only going to cast 1 mold is not going to happen. Especially with 3 gun. The 4-20 bottom pour allows you to bottom AND ladle pour. The bottom pour feature allows greater production and I can cast and load a round for less then the price of a store bought bullet alone.

[RaymondMillbrae]

Thanks, Guys.

If you go to OPTICSPLANET.COM (http://www.opticsplanet.net/lyman-shotgun-bullet-mould-12-gauge-hollow-base-sabot-slug-12ga-sabot-sc12-2654112.html), they are selling the Lyman 525-grain sabot slug mold for $57.99, with free shipping.

Then during the checkout process, type in the coupon code:

bx5md9t4

to get an extra 5% off ($2.90), for a grand total of $55.09 direct to your door.

I know this works, as I just placed my order a few minutes ago, and the rep said he had 4 more left in stock.

Thanks again on the answers to the "To spout, or not to spout?" question.

I believe yall sold me on the properties of the Lee Pro4 20# furnace.

I am also still waiting on a response to my questions regarding video links...if they are to be answered.

Thanks again!!

In Christ: Raymond

[desteve811]

i checked out your Youtube video's and sight installation link. Nice work!

[RaymondMillbrae]

DeSteve811,

thank you.

It was a response to give back to all the shooters that have helped ME in the past.

Just giving back to the shooting community.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: As a matter of fact, I'll add another one on my signature list for yall. (Check it out below).

[desteve811]

very impressive! Good work!

[turbo1889]

Well, I don't have a video link for you. But I do cast the Lyman 525gr. Wad-Slugs from both soft nearly pure lead and hard WW alloy in batches of several hundred slugs at least once every month.

I started with ladle casting and it literally about drove me nuts. Yes, quality is excellent with the right technique but it is slow. I could barely maintain a casting pace of a hundred slugs an hour. In my world that is crawling slow and as I said just about drove me bonkers.

So, long story short I can share with you my technique of how to get quality castings from a bottom pore pot in quantity, but I'm going to have to do it with words.

First, with HB slug molds heat is your friend. Keep your alloy hot, very hot. My smaller bottom pore pot - one of those old round profile Lyman pots that is no longer made like seen in the "This Old Pot" sticky - I run at full bore, dial turned all the way up. My second bottom pore is a home built job made from a heavy thick walled restaurant grade stainless steel stock pot. I did not build it myself I bought it from the guy who built it and is now too old and his health too bad to use it himself. It holds well over a hundred pounds of lead. That one I run at about 810 to 830 degrees, via. the thermometer built into the unit.

With the smaller pot I pre-heat the ingots on the back lip edge and add them as needed (every few minutes) and replace them with the next ingot so it gets pre-heated as well. With the big pot I fill it up, give it forty minutes to heat up, cast for a couple hours until its only 3/4 to 2/3 full, add a bunch more lead, take a twenty minute break, cast for a couple hours until its only 3/4 to 2/3 full ,add a bunch more lead, take lunch break, cast for a couple hours until its only 3/4 to 2/3 full, add a bunch more lead, take a twenty minute break, cast for a couple hours until its only 3/4 to 2/3 full, and then finally empty it all out into ingot molds, clean it, and call it a day. I don't even bother heating up the big pot unless I intend to put in a full day of casting mainly because it uses some much electricity. When I bought it had a standard three prong plug on it and would completely take up a 20-amp circuit and if you plugged anything else in to the same circuit even just a work light it would pop the breaker. It now has a 30-amp big appliance plug on it and a dedicated 30-amp circuit run to it. Basically a 2,000+ watt, 100+ lb bottom pore pot, not something you fire up just a couple hour casting session.

Also, for almost any slug mold with a separate unit HB pin (such as the Lyman 525gr. Wad-Slug mold) it is necessary to keep that HB pin as hot as possible, hotter then the rest of the mold blocks or you will get wrinkled skirts. This is easily accomplished by getting your hands on an old single burner hot-plate unit and then drilling two short screws into the side of the unit. They should be positioned so you can set the base pin on the edge of the burner with only the tip of the pin resting on the outer coil ring and the wooden handle as far away from the burner as possible and the screws on either side keep the pin from rolling one way or the other. Turn the hot-plate all the way up to high so the coils glow red and whenever the pin is not in the mold it's resting between the screws with its tip on red hot outer coil ring.

Secondly, a high flow rate, pressure, and stream speed from the bottom of the pot is both your friend and your enemy. A high flow rate, pressure, and speed fill the mold quickly and ensures absolute complete fill out with no wrinkles or swirling on the skirt. Unfortunately, if you aim this stream to punch right through the center hole of the spruce plate this will also cause air bubble pockets and voids in the slugs produced. This is especially true for the bottom of the hollow base right at the tip of the pin. This is where such bubble voids will normally show up first. This is especially the case with the Lyman 525gr. Wad-Slug mold and for that matter any other HB slug mold where the tip of the pin is flat or nearly flat. The solution is to maintain a reasonably high flow rate, pressure, and stream speed but not aim it straight into the mold cavity through the sprue plate hole. Instead aim it off center of the hole right on the edge of the taper so the lead swirls into the mold cavity just like water down a drain. The best spot to aim with a single cavity HB slug mold such as the Lyman 525gr. Wad-Slug mold is on the edge of the hole right next to the sprue plate screw. The screw acts as a back splash dam and allows maximum flow rate with the stream aimed on the edge of the taper without over-flowing the top of the mold and creating a mess. When I cast with this mold I adjust the mold holder slot on the bottom of the pot to position the mold exactly and repeatably and I adjust the flow rate screw on the pot to give me a high pressure, high stream speed flow about an eighth of an inch in diameter which fills the mold completely and give a nice big sprue plate puddle in just six ticks flat (1-1/2 second, 1 tick = 1/4 second). That's a flow rate of just under an ounce a second; a flow rate far higher then I have ever used for most pistol or rifle boolit molds with the possible exception of some of the big 45-70 rifle and large caliber muzzle loader minie ball molds.

Third, water drop your slugs. If you air cool them, even dropping them on a multi-folded multi-layer soft cotton towel, you will have either slightly deformed and dented slugs or you have to wait to long to drop the slug from the mold and your risking the chance it won't be hot enough for the next cast to have perfect and complete fill out (not to mention it slows down the pace). When I drop my slugs from my mold at my casting pace they are still fragile enough that you could easily crush them with a light smack from a gloved hand. The alloy is no longer liquid but it is still extremely hot and pliable. Nearly all my attempts at air cool dropping with the Lyman 525gr. Wad-Slug mold gave me oval shaped skirts or slight dents. The mere force of the slugs own weight would oval the skirt if the slug landed on it's side, the most common landing position I encountered, when dropping from a height of about 8 inches onto multi-fold multi-layer cotton towels a couple inches thick. God forbid I would drop one on top of another one already dropped - big dent.

Finally, casting pace is as follows (pre-heat entire mold on hot plate before beginning):

1. ~ Gently slide mold into mold holder slot and lift pore handle, when mold reaches full release pore handle. If your flow rate is right, in the time delay between your brains telling you the mold is full and to release the pore handle and your hand actually carrying out the command and the pore handle dropping under its own weight just the right size sprue puddle will be formed - big but not so big as to overflow over the mold sides and cause a mess. Total time = 2-3 seconds. Pore time = 6 ticks.

2. ~ Gently slide the mold out of the holder slot and give it a 2-3 seconds for the sprue puddle to visually solidify on its outer skin. During this time delay, check your pot and if necessary add the pre-heated ingot and replace it with another if necessary. In time, keeping the mold steady and level in one hand while the sprue plate hardens while your adding lead if necessary and cleaning up little splatters with your other hand will become second nature. Total time = 2-3 seconds.

3. ~ Twist and remove the HB pin and place it in the pre-heat position on the hot plate between the two screws as previously described. Take a quick look down the hole where the HB pin was and check the slugs HB for wrinkles, swirls, or bubble voids. Wrinkles indicate your flow rate is too low and can also indicate not enough heat just like swirls but only if its way, way too low. Swirls indicate your alloy isn't hot enough or your casting pace is too slow (thus mold isn't hot enough). Bubble voids indicate your flow rate is either two fast or your stream is hitting too close to the sprue plate hole. A completely smooth mirror like surface HB indicates perfection. A HB with only a very slight line no bigger then a hair across the very bottom of the HB is close enough to perfection. Total time for HB removal and inspection = 1-2 seconds.

4. ~ Grab your dowel and smack the sprue plate and drop the sprue into an old small size, rectangle, shallow depth, bread baking pan used specifically for this purpose. When enough sprue have accumulated to equal a pound or two of lead simply grab this pan while your waiting the 2-3 seconds for a freshly pored sprue to harden during step #2 and tip it towards one corner to recycle the sprue back into the melting pot. Hold the mold about a foot over your five gallon bucket half full of water with diced sponge pieces floating on top (to control splash) which should be on the floor at your feet while the pot is up on the work bench. Give the mold one hard rap on the handle toggle bolt while the mold is still closed and has not yet been opened. Then open the mold and give one more hard rap on the handle toggle bolt. If the slug does not fall out with only one good rap on the handle toggle bolt after it has been opened and it was given one good hard rap on the handle toggle bolt before it was opened - check the mold, something is wrong. Total time = 2-3 seconds.

5. ~ Set your dowel back down, replace the HB pin, close the sprue plate, and prepare for the next pore (back to step #1 and repeat). I also like to have one of those thumb punch counters on the bench right next to where I keep my dowel and I punch the button as I set the dowel back down thus giving me a running tally of how many slugs are in the bucket so far. In addition, if you occasionally get a slug that during step #3 is found be defective during inspection of the HB drop it in the same rectangular pan as the sprue plates and don’t punch the counter button on that one. Since most defects show up in the HB of foster type cast slugs first if the HB is fine the rest of the slug is probably just fine too. It will be the exception that you find a bad one in your water drop bucket that you have to cull out later. Total Time = 1-2 seconds

Using this method of bottom pore casting for my HB slug molds I can effectively maintain a casting production rate of at least 250 slugs an hour at nearly 100% quality with a single cavity separate HB pin mold. Production rate can easily be pushed above 300 slugs an hour with a cooperative mold. Using multi-cavity base pore solid slug molds such as a three cavity 20ga. solid slug mold of the same size and style as a Lee six cavity mold increase production rates to even higher levels while still maintaining nearly 100% quality. Obviously with solid base pore slugs intended for use in rifled barrel slug guns the casting temperature can be turned down a little if your only casting with one mold. Maintaining the high alloy temperature and casting with two molds in alternating rotation works even better.

[RaymondMillbrae]

Turbo1889,

is that how old you are? (121 years old). Ha ha ha.

Thanks for taking the time to talk me through the whole process.

Obviously, being new to all this, some of the term flew right over my head. But I think I decyphered them OK.

HB = Hollow Bore
HB Pin = the pin that holds the hollow bore thing-a-ma-jiggy
Sprue Plate Hole = the part of the mold that you pour the lead into
Edge of the Sprue Plate Screw = the area off to the side, so the poured lead does not "splash" on the bottom of the hollow base right at the tip of the pin.

I will meditate on your words, and see if they are made clearer to me once I actually receive my new toys.

Thanks again.

No videos, huh?

In Christ: Raymond

[RaymondMillbrae]

OK, folks...

I checked all over the place for the best prices, shipping included (FM Reloading, Midsouth Shooters, Cheaper Than Dirt, Graph & Sons, Natchez, and Midway), and it seems like GRAPH & SONS had the best price.

I purchased a new Lee Pro 4-20 from them for $64.99, shipped to my door.

These guys also rock on primers and a few other thingies I usually purchase from them!

I also picked-up a Lyman 525-grain Slug mold from Optics Planet for $55.09, shipped to my door. (A discount coupon was also used).

So now I have a few more questions:

1) What handles will fit this mold? I have read that the cheaper Lee mold handles will fit...but which model?

2) I have read about a gentleman in Canada who makes great handles and molds. (RED RIVER RICK'S (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=31451&highlight=Snider)) I've also read his threads, and seen his products. But I was wondering if there was still some type of "group buy" going on. (I've read about it somepleace, but couldn't find the thread). His mold handles are on the expensive side, but should I bother, or will a Lee, or the more expensive Lyman, do just as well?

3) I have read about mold release agents. Is this something I should consider, or should I just clean and deburr the molds really good, and forget about the release agent?

4) I have read about a product that you place on the sprue plate, that helps it to stay clean. (I believe it was some type of graphite concoction). Is this worth the investment, or should I just clean/deburr, and use a No. 2 pencil instead?

I'm kind of excited, as this will be the first time I have ever cast my own slugs.

Any advice would be appreciated.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: I have been reading all the articles I could find on my questions, and was hoping I would get a response which I have not read yet. ;)

[Blammer]

HB = hollow base, not hollow bore, good guess though :)

[phaessler]

I been away for a while and I dont honestly think Turbo's directions could be any better... except for the cell phone ringing in the background or other mute distractions.. ha ha ha.
But these are worth printing for sure.

[OBCoal]

The Lee commercial mould handles will work fine. I like them better than the Lyman and they are cheaper in price.