Freedom arms .357

[dubber123]

This should make 44man happy... ;) I slugged a F/A .357, (model 353), today at a gun shop. Cylinder slugged .3580", nice I thought. Barrel, .359+". Not good. It was a great price, but not good enough to afford a rebarrel. I hated to, but I passed. Bummer.

[targetshootr]

Wonder if FA would convert a gun like that to another caliber... since they've got to redo the barrel anyhow.

[TCLouis]

If those measurements are correct I would almost bet thet Fredom Arms would hone cylinder or rebarrel.

Phone call to find out what they will do for you as that combination should never shoot, especially to Freedom Arm's standards.

[44man]

It took 3 barrels to get a .357" from Freedom. The second barrel was .3599". It's a shame. I don't know who makes their barrels but quality control needs taken care of. For the price, every barrel should be air gauged before installation.
The first two bores were also grossly out of round.
It does not make me happy, it has kept me from buying one.

[dubber123]

This one was round, but too big. As tight as the chambers are cut on a F/A, I doubt it would chamber the .360" boolit necessary to match the barrel. Not too impressive.

[targetshootr]

What about the factory targets.

[dtknowles]

Holy quano batman, I was looking at auctions for Freedom Arms revolvers because of the reputation for accuracy, I would hate to get a dog. I really want something that will out shoot my Dan Wesson.

Tim

[dubber123]

What about the factory targets.

No box, no factory target. This one might do fine with J-bullets, but I am pretty sure I wouldn't be happy with cast, and cast is my only interest in revolver boolits. I have been trying to rationalize buying it, but it just looks like money on top of money to get it fixed right. I am a F/A fan, but a clunker is a clunker, no matter the brand. The printed spec I found calls for a .3570" barrel.

[targetshootr]

I finally sold my only FA, an 454/45 convertible. Nice gun but it was so heavy I didn't shoot it much and the factory wanted to charge for everything under the sun. If a 357 turned up at a good price I'd see what they'd want to convert it to 44 spl... after discussing the barrel. Or check with JHuntington, he probably has a 44 barrel.

[bobke]

had an early 454 field grade with a spare cylinder in 45 colt with factory action job, express sights, scope mount, etc-a bit of spare change invested for me at the time-with all the hopes of it living up to it's alleged accuracy potential, only to find tight thoats and .453 barrel. when i reamed throats to .4535, it's mystery was unlocked, but only after that. had/have a bunch of molds made up to accomodate the extra diameter, but eventually the lustre waned and it got sold. kind of regret it now, but was pretty disappointed early on, as this was my first, large investment beyond conventional factory guns, and i had all the hope of it working out. and as we all know, sometimes those things you lust after for years never seem to yield your initial expectations.

that said, i just took delivery yesterday of new 475 linebaugh bfr from the bullshop and first 25 rounds show this baby's got lots of potential.

[dale2242]

dubber, I talked to a guy at the gun show yesterday that was complaining that his FA 357 had a .360 bore. That must be fairly common. Too bad,poor workmanship in such a high dollar gun.....dale

[Bass Ackward]

No box, no factory target. This one might do fine with J-bullets, but I am pretty sure I wouldn't be happy with cast, and cast is my only interest in revolver boolits. I have been trying to rationalize buying it, but it just looks like money on top of money to get it fixed right. I am a F/A fan, but a clunker is a clunker, no matter the brand. The printed spec I found calls for a .3570" barrel.


I have an early manufacture 97 in 357 that has .358 throats and .357 bore. (Now the tool marks are coming out of the grooves and its .358 /.358. :grin:)

At some point FA started making these for the Silhouette crowd that needed multiple accurate shots without fouling. And cutting bore friction is the same logic the military used before they went to chrome bores. I suppose that the rationale is that someone that can afford the gun aught to be able to afford jacketed bullets for it. And competitors have money to burn or they will spend as if they do anyway.

Problem is that the company won't come out and tell when this came about. And it isn't the same for calibers not normally used in competition. Those are still made with larger throats to groove ratios.

So to get a good FA, you just need to avoid the competition calibers or buy an older one. They are out there.

[targetshootr]

I suppose that the rationale is that someone that can afford the gun aught to be able to afford ......

That's almost an exact quote FA gave me when I asked about the price of their octagon barrels, which, at the time, were offered as an add-on to field grade models for about $800.

[Bass Ackward]

Well, now that they have gone to these single shots, it's impossible for them to cut a smaller throat on a single tube.

Probably will eventually flip the other way as they try to extend reamer life. I suspect that QC on these first ones will be tight if you are of a mind.

[S.R.Custom]

...At some point FA started making these for the Silhouette crowd that needed multiple accurate shots without fouling. And cutting bore friction is the same logic the military used before they went to chrome bores... Poblem is that the company won't come out and tell when this came about.

If that were true, then the obvious solution would have been to size cylinder throats in both .356" and .357" and designate the smaller one for use in the "Silhouette Revolver."

[jhrosier]

FA is so proud of their guns that they absolutely refuse to sell any to folks in Massachusetts.
It looks like they might be doing us a favor!
I think that I could have a Ruger upgraded by one of the better 'smiths for about the same prices as a FA anyhow.

Jack

[Naphtali]

Wonder if FA would convert a gun like that to another caliber... since they've got to redo the barrel anyhow. Freedom will not convert any revolver to different bore size.

For anyone interested in M83 357s, I have one with extras for sale or trade.

[Bass Ackward]

If that were true, then the obvious solution would have been to size cylinder throats in both .356" and .357" and designate the smaller one for use in the "Silhouette Revolver."


I think that we have to realize that as cast shooters we fall into the minority anymore. The vast majority of handguns are stored more than are ever fired.

S&W builds 629s today and have for a few years now with undersized throats in 44 Mag. Ruger continues to do the same in 45 Colt. These are not accidents, they were built that way on purpose.

So how would multiple throat and bore sizes be stocked by a FA dealer considering the dollar value? (risk) I am not taking their side, only being practical. And my guess is that FA is paying the price for these decisions. How many times you heard people warn others about all of these models? Look at resale prices of FA where sale prices speak volumes.

FA isn't going to the SS platform simply because they are so busy. So the market is speaking. Problem is that the damage has already been done.

[NHlever]

"Ruger continues to do the same in 45 Colt. These are not accidents, they were built that way on purpose."

Please check current facts before making statements like this. I think you will find that since Ruger changed it's production methods a couple of years ago, the throat / bore relationships in .45 Colt especially have been much better. Now, I could be wrong since I have measured less than a half dozen, but it sure looks that way to me. My current convertable has .4525 chamber throats, and a .451 barrel..... just the way I like it. The .45 ACP cylinder has .4515 throats which are a bit tight for my use, but pretty standard for that caliber. I've reamed more Ruger .45 Colt throats both for myself, and for other folks that cared than most people have, so I'm pretty familiar with the issue.

[Bass Ackward]

"Ruger continues to do the same in 45 Colt. These are not accidents, they were built that way on purpose."

Please check current facts before making statements like this.


OK. Makes my point either way. Irregardless, it was a conscious decision for a matter of years (wanna guess how many thousands of guns that was?) that these guns be made that way.

One is only to assume that any company, responsive to it's customers, would eventually react to feedback.

The point or fact remains that all of these companies do it when it suits them. Hiding or failing to announce it simply invites the statements like the one I made " IF " it is an error.

[S.R.Custom]

So how would multiple throat and bore sizes be stocked by a FA dealer considering the dollar value? (risk)

Like they would anything else... by what sells. (risk management)

[MakeMineA10mm]

Can anyone break loose what the dealer price is on the FAs?

I've looked at their retail pricing on the website, and see that a Model 97 w/ adjustable sights is listed at $1891.00, but I'm confident street price is far cheaper...

[dubber123]

Can anyone break loose what the dealer price is on the FAs?

I've looked at their retail pricing on the website, and see that a Model 97 w/ adjustable sights is listed at $1891.00, but I'm confident street price is far cheaper...

I don't think you will find too much of a break, maybe a couple hundred bucks. Dealer on my .475 was 1,700+ quite a few years ago.

[44man]

To make everyone even happier, the .357 my friend has still will not group with perfect dimensions. Each chamber shoots different and to a different POI. I am convinced that the cylinder lock up is too tight. I would love to put some play in it and if it was my gun, I would do it.
Now his .475 Freedom is GREAT and is as good as it can get.
Line boring and tight cylinders is not the answer until everything is done to perfection---absolute perfection, not close.
Too many guys get disgusted with cylinder movement in Ruger's, etc and want custom work to tighten them. That is WRONG, leave them alone. Even tighter cylinder pins can take away accuracy. If you demand super tight, you might just be making a wall hanger.

[NHlever]

44Man is on to the truth there about the line boring / tightness thing. We do want a little play in our revolvers, not slop mind you, but some give. I used to kid with the guy that built the Single Six prototypes. He was an old time toolmaker for sure, but I would say that any fool could build a single action. "you stand frame on end, and drill two holes in the right place, then lay it on it's side, and drill a couple more right, and you have it whipped!" Well, Molly, there is a bit more to it than that, and a few years of experience taught me that. At the time though, Ruger was charging the same price for the Blackhawk that they did for the Security Six, and the toolmaker's point was that they made more money on the Blackhawk....... well, ya! Watching high speed movie footage taken when a revolver fires is quite an education, and kind of makes one wonder how they work at all.

[Changeling]

It took 3 barrels to get a .357" from Freedom. The second barrel was .3599". It's a shame. I don't know who makes their barrels but quality control needs taken care of. For the price, every barrel should be air gauged before installation.
The first two bores were also grossly out of round.
It does not make me happy, it has kept me from buying one.

They are air gaged, they blow them out there donkey:p

[Bass Ackward]

If you want to be impressed, go to this link of the IHMSA 2009 Internationals and scroll down to the revolvers and see what you see. I count two Ruger, one Taurus, and one DW.

http://www.ihmsa.org/2009%20world%20standings.pdf


Eye opening, ain't it?

[dubber123]

If you want to be impressed, go to this link of the IHMSA 2009 Internationals and scroll down to the revolvers and see what you see. I count two Ruger, one Taurus, and one DW.

http://www.ihmsa.org/2009%20world%20standings.pdf


Eye opening, ain't it?

Like I said, they all make lemons, just some make lemons alot less often...

[ebg3]

To make everyone even happier, the .357 my friend has still will not group with perfect dimensions. Each chamber shoots different and to a different POI. I am convinced that the cylinder lock up is too tight. I would love to put some play in it and if it was my gun, I would do it.
Now his .475 Freedom is GREAT and is as good as it can get.
Line boring and tight cylinders is not the answer until everything is done to perfection---absolute perfection, not close.
Too many guys get disgusted with cylinder movement in Ruger's, etc and want custom work to tighten them. That is WRONG, leave them alone. Even tighter cylinder pins can take away accuracy. If you demand super tight, you might just be making a wall hanger.
I wonder if longer boolits would make that .357 shoot better. Like 180 or 200gr cast...or have you already tried that?
EG

[NHlever]

I wonder if longer boolits would make that .357 shoot better. Like 180 or 200gr cast...or have you already tried that?
EG

It is bad enough when we have to use workarounds to get regular production guns to shoot, but unacceptable in a gun like a Freedom Arms. I have seen, and examined older Freedom Arms guns, both inside, and out. They were built like a Swiss watch, and were a joy for a Toolmaker to examine. The bore sizes quoted here are even over SAMMI specs, and just not acceptable.

[44man]

I wonder if longer boolits would make that .357 shoot better. Like 180 or 200gr cast...or have you already tried that?
EG
Yes, every bullet/boolit weight, diameter and style made, every alloy, powder and load, several years of work. It has been a love, hate relationship because I love his .475 but hate this .357. It is just this one gun because I know other .357's shoot as does the .41 and .44. It is so bad it should have been replaced. I have shot down to 1/2" groups with the .475 at 50 yards but this thing scatters shots. I took the very best load we found and shot each chamber for a chamber test and got this. I still think the gun is too tight for the alignment of the chambers and bore.

[targetshootr]

I thought FA had done something to make things right with that gun?

[44man]

But someone will say I can't shoot open sights! But These are groups with my Vaquero at 50 yards. First is the Lee 300 gr and then the Lyman 325 gr. I have actually shot 1" groups at 75 yards with this revolver when sighting for deer. Recoil is FIERCE but I have dropped deer over 100 yards with it, off hand.
THERE IS NO REASON ON EARTH THAT A RUGER SHOULD OUT SHOOT A FREEDOM.

[44man]

I thought FA had done something to make things right with that gun?
Two new barrels and a new cylinder, bore and throat dimensions are now perfect but something is wrong with it.
I know this is not common but it does happen even with the best. They should bite the boolit and replace the gun. No gun maker is immune. I once bought a new Ruger Mark II that shot every bullet into the ground 15' in front of me. I could hold the gun level and see bullets hit the ground. I could find not one single thing to cause it, bore was straight and true, measurements were dead on, crown was perfect, gun was tight, no reason for it. I sent it to Ruger and they sent me a new gun, not a single question or answer.

[targetshootr]

People like to give Ruger lots of grief but they operate like Dillon, NO BS.

[Bass Ackward]

But someone will say I can't shoot open sights! But These are groups with my Vaquero at 50 yards. First is the Lee 300 gr and then the Lyman 325 gr. I have actually shot 1" groups at 75 yards with this revolver when sighting for deer. Recoil is FIERCE but I have dropped deer over 100 yards with it, off hand.
THERE IS NO REASON ON EARTH THAT A RUGER SHOULD OUT SHOOT A FREEDOM.


Oh yes there is. All steel can have stresses that can't be accounted for under pressure. And the effect should be more pronounced the smaller the bore diameter is because the pressure curve is higher longer.

On the other hand, to argue that every well used Iver Johnson ever made has superior accuracy potential just cause it rattles 360 degrees isn't practical either.

The more room or movement you have or have to develop as a gun breaks in is going to cost you. And the price is flexibility.

[44man]

Do I hate Freedom guns---NO. Do I want some---YES, but only after I shoot it.
I feel their customer service and prices could be improved and that is their biggest downfall.
My friend was not happy with his trigger and Freedom wanted close to $100 to fix it. (Why, on such an expensive gun?) It took me 15 minutes to form a new trigger spring to take the trigger to 1-1/2#, no other work needed. (Free to my friend.) Why does a spring cost $100? PLUS SHIPPING! Why does every extra a fella wants cost a fortune? Why can't after market parts be found to fit a Freedom? Not even grips are listed. They have locked up the market 100% and I attribute it to GREED.

[targetshootr]

By the way, I have several FA barrels on hand, 44, 45, 475, so if anyone wants to convert an FA, all you need is Jack Huntington to convert the cylinder. They could also be fitted to a Ruger with new threads.

[44man]

Oh yes there is. All steel can have stresses that can't be accounted for under pressure. And the effect should be more pronounced the smaller the bore diameter is because the pressure curve is higher longer.

On the other hand, to argue that every well used Iver Johnson ever made has superior accuracy potential just cause it rattles 360 degrees isn't practical either.

The more room or movement you have or have to develop as a gun breaks in is going to cost you. And the price is flexibility.
Now Bass, not for three barrels and a new cylinder! (Have to count the original barrel.)
For cylinder play, I am only talking a few thousandths, not a rattle trap.
You keep talking break in and off side wear but strange after 56 years of shooting revolvers, I have not seen what you talk about.
Why can I take a new, out of box revolver and shoot almost a one hole group at 50 yards, doesn't matter which, Freedom, Ruger, S&W, using cast, and shoot it for years and years without a change?
The gun that does NOT shoot right from the start will NEVER improve for me so I sell it. Shooting a bad gun for 20 years does not make it shoot better or worse. It is still bad from the start.
Some of my revolvers have either never seen a jacketed or have only had one box through them until I make a mold.
Why does my SBH still have a .430" bore and a straight forcing cone when I am getting close to 60,000 heavy loads?
No such thing as FLEXIBILITY formed into a gun. The boolit matches the velocity and rate of twist or it doesn't. Shooting 100,000 240 gr bullets from a .44 does not allow it to shoot 180 gr bullets better. The twist has not changed. Powder gas erosion on the rifling is so small, it is a non issue even in a .357. Even powder erosion on the edge of a forcing cone means little unless cracks form.
If a 50 year old gun can shoot as good as a new one or a new one can shoot as good as a 50 year old one, please explain all these changes you keep talking about.
Are you trying to tell me that if we shoot this .357 for 30 more years, it will shoot better and shoot all kinds of boolits better too?

[Bass Ackward]

1. Now Bass, not for three barrels and a new cylinder! (Have to count the original barrel.)
For cylinder play, I am only talking a few thousandths, not a rattle trap.
2. You keep talking break in and off side wear but strange after 56 years of shooting revolvers, I have not seen what you talk about.
3. Why can I take a new, out of box revolver and shoot almost a one hole group at 50 yards, doesn't matter which, Freedom, Ruger, S&W, using cast, and shoot it for years and years without a change?
4. The gun that does NOT shoot right from the start will NEVER improve for me so I sell it.
5. Shooting a bad gun for 20 years does not make it shoot better or worse. It is still bad from the start.
6. Some of my revolvers have either never seen a jacketed or have only had one box through them until I make a mold.
7. Why does my SBH still have a .430" bore and a straight forcing cone when I am getting close to 60,000 heavy loads?
8. No such thing as FLEXIBILITY formed into a gun. The boolit matches the velocity and rate of twist or it doesn't. Shooting 100,000 240 gr bullets from a .44 does not allow it to shoot 180 gr bullets better. The twist has not changed. Powder gas erosion on the rifling is so small, it is a non issue even in a .357. Even powder erosion on the edge of a forcing cone means little unless cracks form.
9. If a 50 year old gun can shoot as good as a new one or a new one can shoot as good as a 50 year old one, please explain all these changes you keep talking about.
10. Are you trying to tell me that if we shoot this .357 for 30 more years, it will shoot better and shoot all kinds of boolits better too?


1. You can align and follow indicator in a static mode, but not under pressure. You can replace all you want. A frame that reacts or contours will always walk.

2. Yes you have. You comment all the time about S&W revolvers being grip sensitive. If you put an enlarged cylinder stop in after one has broke in, then it isn't any harder to hold than anything else.

3. I don't know. Maybe because you sell the challengers to me all the time.

4. Metal is not removed unless it is necessary to be removed. If your revolver has the same dimensions after shooting high antimony and hard bullets, then it HAS to be aligned well or broken in.

5. I quit trying to work up loads or play with mixes now until I get 2000 rounds minimum. I shoot a control load and watch the gun learn how to shoot that. I am fire lapping without abrasive. Once improvement stops I decide to keep it and work up loads or off it goes.

6. You don't have to shoot jacketed. I just hate to shoot antimony until things clean up some because I don't want excess slop in the gun.

7. Hmmmm. Maybe a better question to ask is why two of my Rugers cracked the worn thin forcing cones @ 50k. Do you think that your handgun life is the exception or the rule? On another note, this round count just keeps escalating and escalating with all the precautions you take from molding 10 bullets at a time to reloading I ever saw. You gotta have the sorest lube finger in town. :grin:

8. Interesting. One bullet company once stated that the best accuracy in 44Mag came from 180 grain bullets. The most accurate bullet in a 44 Mag has always been a 180 grain for me. Just can't be cast and ain't worth much to hunt with it. It's a twist rate thing you see.

9. See ten.

10. YES! You are the one that said the chambers were too tight! Once the metal is removed that is in the way, you will have a Ruger. You were just unlucky to have one that requires a cone. Or you can taylor it. Same thing. No matter what the gun or how it was made, you either shoot it in or cut it in. That's how you will know if it was too tight or out of align if the accuracy improves. The longer it gets the heavier the bullet you need. (Twist rate must change all the time. :grin:)

[44man]

Grip sensitive with the S&W 29 is true. Groups never change, they just change POI. A 1/2" group is still a 1/2" group but not where the first one went after the gun is picked up again. You are confusing accuracy with hold.
Yes, I shoot a LOT of .44's, very hard cast to boot. And Yes I get sore fingers. I have easily put 2000 rounds out since my first post according to the primer count. Plus I had boxes and boxes of IHMSA loads that I shot up to dump brass because they are not good for deer. I shoot the same primers from the .45 but do not shoot it often at all, maybe 100 rounds since. It needs no work and is a deer gun.
Not chambers too tight only the throats on the .45. Most of my Ruger's have had pretty large chambers except the SRH which was tight but throats were perfect. Fired cases from my SBH will not go in any other gun. Nothing to worry about.
If you shoot enough antimony boolits to wear a cone thin, you must shoot over a million rounds a year from one gun, how sore is your finger? :groner:
Darn funny I can take my brass forcing cone lap, put a little Flitz on it, make a few turns to remove carbon, on all of my revolvers and just see a nice, clean cone, no wear off center but just a little sandblasting on the edges of my .44, nothing on the others. Cones are not longer and rifling is still sharp. Explain just how many rounds you shoot to show wear on your guns. 2000 rounds before a gun will shoot is just plain silly. A brand new Ruger will shoot cast better then anyone can shoot it. So will a BFR. So will any other revolver. If you have a good Freedom, does it need 2000 rounds?
If the 180 gr shoots accurate from the .44, you do not know what accuracy is. The 240 is where accuracy starts. The S&W likes the 250 better. Since you say when a bore wears, heavier boolits are needed, why does my .44 shoot a 320 gr so good yet still shoots a 240 as good as ever?
You have to explain just how many rounds you shoot every day out of each gun to explain the wear you get. You must be awful old and must have shot your revolvers since the time of the hand cannon shot with fire on a stick.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Do I hate Freedom guns---NO. Do I want some---YES, but only after I shoot it.
I feel their customer service and prices could be improved and that is their biggest downfall.
My friend was not happy with his trigger and Freedom wanted close to $100 to fix it. (Why, on such an expensive gun?) It took me 15 minutes to form a new trigger spring to take the trigger to 1-1/2#, no other work needed. (Free to my friend.) Why does a spring cost $100? PLUS SHIPPING! Why does every extra a fella wants cost a fortune? Why can't after market parts be found to fit a Freedom? Not even grips are listed. They have locked up the market 100% and I attribute it to GREED.
I agree with your point in principle, but I don't know it's totally Freedom's fault. After all, anyone in the grip business COULD make grips for them. They only make three pistols for heaven's sake...

So, if a fella orders a gun from Freedom, how's he to know if it's gonna be right or not?? What does Freedom say about a gun that seems to be a lemon? Will they not replace it altogether for your friend? (I would think to refuse to, they'd have to send me some targets they shot with it that shows it's somehow accurate and just me that can't make it shoot. And, even then, if you have all the documentation you have, I'd ask them for 20 rounds of that ammo to see if you could duplicate THEIR results...)



By the way, I have several FA barrels on hand, 44, 45, 475, so if anyone wants to convert an FA, all you need is Jack Huntington to convert the cylinder. They could also be fitted to a Ruger with new threads.

How'd you wind up with all those barrels? Now you've got me thinking. I can get a Model 83 fairly reasonably, but it's in 454 Casull. But, if I could convert it to 44 Mag...

[targetshootr]

How'd you wind up with all those barrels? Now you've got me thinking. I can get a Model 83 fairly reasonably, but it's in 454 Casull. But, if I could convert it to 44 Mag...

One is my own and the others I got off Gunbroker to use on Rugers. I think if I wanted to convert a gun as big as an 83 I'd go up to 475 instead of down to 44. And then you'd only have to rechamber the cylinder and not buy a new one.

[cbrick]

dubber123,

For the price you mentioned to me in the PM why not grab that FA while the grabin is good? For $35.00 to $40.00 you can have the throats match the goove diameter perfectly (if it's really needed), look into the cylindersmith. No need for a new barrel. I'd be willing to bet that FA with properly fitting boolits will surprise you.

I have worked up loads for many FA's and haven't found one yet with a groove diameter larger than throat diameter in 357, 41, 44 and 454, doesn't mean it can't happen, just that I haven't found one. Maybe I'm just lucky but I do with FA's what 44man says cannot be done with FA's.

http://www.lasc.us/Feb2006.jpg

This is a load I worked up for a friends 41 FA. The target is at 150 meters and measures around 6 inches high by 4 inches wide . . . the target size not the group size, that's five shots on the half size turkey scoped from the bench (just because my eyes will not let me do that any more with iron sights).

I've got bolt guns that don't shoot as well as my FA's.

Rick

[cbrick]

As a side note to the above post, this is in no way a slam on 44 man, I read as many of his posts as I can find and I agree with him almost 100% on revolver casting, revolver loading and revolver shooting but . . . sorry 44man, not on the FA's. But then you knew that already didn't you? [smilie=s:

Rick

[cbrick]

Need more proof of how FA's shoot? The following group is from my FA 357, scoped from the bench. The target is 6 inches from the belly to the back, 12 inches from the chest to the rump, not including head, horns or legs. This half size ram is at 200 meters.

http://www.lasc.us/DSCN1749-999.jpg

The RCBS 180 gr 35 cal silhouette @ 188 gr w/o lube or GC, velocity is 1550 fps 10 feet from the muzzle.

The RCBS 180 is the boolit on the right.

http://www.lasc.us/SAECO399RCBS180gr-11.JPG

I didn't label this photo but I think this was the 44 mag FA at 150 meters. 5 shots. Who said 44 caliber boolits had to be 180 gr? This is the RCBS 240 gr silhouette boolit.

http://www.lasc.us/DSCN1478-8.jpg

The high shot was the fifth shot and a called flyer, actually thought I missed the target completey until I looked through the spotting scope.

I get quite the belly laugh every time I read on this forum or others that FA's don't shoot. Yea . . . right.

dubber123, buy that FA before someone else does!

Rick

[dubber123]

Rick, I would have to take the throats out to .360" to put me .001" over the bore. I have thought of that, but I really doubt a F/A would chamber a round that fat. I have contemplated making up a dummy round with a .360+" boolit to see if it will chamber. The price is good, but a rebarrel would push it over the "bargain" point pretty quickly.

Added info: I checked, and cylindersmith only goes to .3585", Any idea how to get it honed/reamed to .360", provided it will chamber a cartridge with that boolit diameter?

[44man]

Cbrick, of course I agree with you and a friend has one that shoots like that.
The problem is a few other friends were just not lucky. One has the .454 and another the .357 and neither can be made to shoot. The .454 is so-so, decent only. I wish I had it here to work with .460 brass.
Three more were brought to me the last few years that had accuracy problems I could not solve.
That is what scares me away. I have always wanted one and would buy one if I had the money but I would want to see how it shoots first.
Once you have a shooter, there is none better but would I be lucky enough to get one first off or would I have to fight with the company?
After reading all of the E mails and hearing the phone calls to my friend and seeing how poor customer service was, that alone is my biggest gripe.
Baker actually blamed my friend for the over size, out of round bore saying he must have shot lead first and then jacketed which expanded the bore and made it out of round. Funny that we slugged the gun before shooting it, found it was wrong, cleaned it and started with jacketed of every brand and weight.
Then when Baker was informed that lead was not shot, he blamed me for leaving lead in the bore from slugging it. ???????
As much as I love the guns and have had my mouth watering for years, I do not like the guy behind it, he does not care once you spend your money. You have to fight with them to even pay postage, my friend paid $117 for the first return.
So now you know the reason and remember, don't shoot lead and then jacketed because you will ruin your gun! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
If I had the money and you offered to sell me one of yours, I would jump right on it. I could deal with you but not with Baker. My opinion is that he is letting sub standard guns out because most guys can't shoot good enough to know the difference and prefer looks over function. Instead of rejecting a batch of barrels, they make guns with them when they should make the barrel maker bite the boolit.
I am not anti Freedom, I am anti Freedom OWNER. I do not blame the workers either, they have to follow orders. If you think I trust a target sent with the gun, think again. They need to get their act together. I have to wonder what they did with the take off barrels, did they put them on other guns?
No matter what you show about your guns, you are LUCKY and could have bought a lemon just as easily.
Posts seem to run about 60% pro and 40% con, why isn't it 100% pro?
When a fella has a problem and Baker says "I am sorry, send it back on my dollar and I will send you a new gun" only then will I spend 2 months retirement on one.

[Bass Ackward]

Grip sensitive with the S&W 29 is true. Groups never change, they just change POI. A 1/2" group is still a 1/2" group but not where the first one went after the gun is picked up again. You are confusing accuracy with hold.
Yes, I shoot a LOT of .44's, very hard cast to boot. And Yes I get sore fingers. I have easily put 2000 rounds out since my first post according to the primer count. Plus I had boxes and boxes of IHMSA loads that I shot up to dump brass because they are not good for deer. I shoot the same primers from the .45 but do not shoot it often at all, maybe 100 rounds since. It needs no work and is a deer gun.
Not chambers too tight only the throats on the .45. Most of my Ruger's have had pretty large chambers except the SRH which was tight but throats were perfect. Fired cases from my SBH will not go in any other gun. Nothing to worry about.
If you shoot enough antimony boolits to wear a cone thin, you must shoot over a million rounds a year from one gun, how sore is your finger? :groner:
Darn funny I can take my brass forcing cone lap, put a little Flitz on it, make a few turns to remove carbon, on all of my revolvers and just see a nice, clean cone, no wear off center but just a little sandblasting on the edges of my .44, nothing on the others. Cones are not longer and rifling is still sharp. Explain just how many rounds you shoot to show wear on your guns. 2000 rounds before a gun will shoot is just plain silly. A brand new Ruger will shoot cast better then anyone can shoot it. So will a BFR. So will any other revolver. If you have a good Freedom, does it need 2000 rounds?
If the 180 gr shoots accurate from the .44, you do not know what accuracy is. The 240 is where accuracy starts. The S&W likes the 250 better. Since you say when a bore wears, heavier boolits are needed, why does my .44 shoot a 320 gr so good yet still shoots a 240 as good as ever?
You have to explain just how many rounds you shoot every day out of each gun to explain the wear you get. You must be awful old and must have shot your revolvers since the time of the hand cannon shot with fire on a stick.


What you don't see doesn't mean doesn't happen to someone else. My Rugers failed because the cylinders were pointed up. In case you don't know this, this is VERY common and one of the reasons that single actions have the reputation to rise under recoil. Some people believe that it is just the grip. :grin:

My Ruger (blackhawk) was the only handgun I owned at that time and shot two loads only for about 20 years. The other I mention was dad's of which I was very familiar. 23 grains of H-110 or 23.5 of 296. Both were about the same with a 240 / 250 grain anything, mostly jacketed as they could be loaded quickly. A myth about jacketed shooting rifling out in 5000 rounds too. I never said that they were all cast.

Anyone that is shooting high round counts CAN NOT be molding, loading, and shooting for any length of time. I don't care if he is running multiple progressives and a casting machine. And if he has even a couple of guns, it is even harder to accomplish. Just the productive shooting time for 500 rounds a week with a single action is difficult unless shooting daily. That's one of the reasons why I use DAs. The other is the hand filling grip and straight back recoil that takes the pressure off of the arthritic fingers.

I took some time to run measurements before I posted this. I ran a test with two 44Mags beginning last year which is why " I " quit posting for a few months. Can't load, shoot, AND post. Both guns started life with .428 throats and .429 bores. I worked up loads for both, one shot well and the other one didn't. I opened the throats to .4305 on both. Worked them up again and the groups flipped. The one that didn't shoot got better with larger throats. The one that shot descent got worse after opening. On both, the throats have cleaned up to .432 after the tool marks were removed. Bore on one is still @ .429 and the other has opened to .4305 and is an oblong .4345 at the back. None of the 44s has seen a lapper or a jacketed so I wouldn't contaminate the results. Round count? About 2000 rounds. My 45 was .4505 with .4515 throats. Now .452 with .453 throats. Round count is around 4300 now, but dimensions have not changed since @ 2000 rounds.

The only factory Ruger I have left is a Redhawk. (Both blackhawks that failed were customized.) I don't shoot the RH more these days because it will no longer index reliably unless cocked fast and I don't trust it. It started life at .429. It is now @ .430 and change. It is OK, but nothing special, so it will be corrected when I get around to it. Round count is about 1200 or so. I sold the other I had.

My FA 357 did have a slight B/F constriction. Care to guess what it took to shoot it out without lapping? Does it do better today? Yep.

Do you think that loads, sizing, bullet preferences changed when those guns changed / cleaned up? How come yours didn't I can't say.

Just so you know, my round count goes by empty primer bricks. The gun is written on each brick as it is opened and the brick is kept with that brass and recorded as a tick on the die box when it is empty. Less paper work.

I can't respond to your comments on the 180s since I got nothin to show.

[44man]

I use primer count too, easy that way.
I suppose if something is off you can get funny wear. Am I lucky to have good Rugers? I guess so.
I am also lucky that I can shoot at home and all the shooting I do does not bother my neighbors. I only live less then 1/2 mile out of our little town too.
The BFR's--- mine and all of my friends guns have been nothing but perfection on internal dimensions, all shoot the same loads, no workup has been needed. That includes a wide variety of boolits too, what works in mine has worked in all. They actually get boring and smaller targets are needed so I don't shoot them much anymore except to stay sharp for off hand deer killing. There is just nothing to work on. They are comfort guns, I don't even clean them.

[Bass Ackward]

The BFR's--- mine and all of my friends guns have been nothing but perfection on internal dimensions, all shoot the same loads, no workup has been needed. That includes a wide variety of boolits too, what works in mine has worked in all.


That statement ..... is remarkable. We tend to believe or rationalize what we see as fact.

I have to pay extra to get that. And it's why others pay for it too.

Or wait until things clean up to the worst chamber. Or shoot smaller bores, or lighter bullets because I physically can't hold it as soon to produce great groups. Cause the gun WILL want to move in the direction of the impact. Or cut my loads. Or .... simply shoot a control load that works for people with perfect guns until my gun quits improving.

Gun wear will stop at your ability to hold it as a balance is achieved of the gun moving comparred to what you are shooting making combinations better or worse. Then accept or work around the limitations or sell it.

If the frame is moving out of line under pressure with each chamber being different, then no amount of replacement parts will correct anything. In fact, you actually set yourself back in the process. Cut charges and shoot, then pick it up, it will come around.

[dubber123]

If I can reel you fellas in for a moment, I have loaded some dummy rounds up to try in the F/A with .360" boolits. I kinda doubt they will chamber, but if they do, reaming the throats would put this gun back in a favorable throat/bore relationship. My problem is I haven't found anyone who can give me a contact who can do this operation. Cylindersmith doesn't go this big. I'm kinda hesitant to stick a dowel and sandpaper in one and buzz away with a drill, I would prefer a bit more precision.

[targetshootr]

If I can reel you fellas in for a moment, I have loaded some dummy rounds up to try in the F/A with .360" boolits. I kinda doubt they will chamber, but if they do, reaming the throats would put this gun back in a favorable throat/bore relationship. My problem is I haven't found anyone who can give me a contact who can do this operation. Cylindersmith doesn't go this big. I'm kinda hesitant to stick a dowel and sandpaper in one and buzz away with a drill, I would prefer a bit more precision.

Jack Huntington in CA does a lot of work on FAs.

[Bullshop]

dubber123
I think you can get the tools and do it yourself for far less than sending it out to get done.
I have not done a 357 but did one in 41 mag. Same deal with undersize cylender throats. Bought the reamer and pilot from Pacific tool&die. Very simple to take out a couple .000's and keep straight and true with the toold provided. I had a 41 with .412" groove barrel and .410" throats. Opened the throats to .412" with no problems. The piloted tool keeps things straight. I also got an 11* forcing cone cutter from them. Same deal piloted tools cut straight, no problems.
BIC/BS

[dubber123]

Thanks for the information. I finally got ahold of Huntingtons, and he will open the throats to whatever I want for $65. He did strongly suggest I only open them to GROOVE size, even after telling him I would be shooting only cast. What say you guys? I have always been led to believe .001+" over bore is best. He does have a good rep, so maybe he's right?

[Bullshop]

Dont you mean to open them to groove diameter not bore diameter?
I like a .001" step down from boolit diameter to throat diameter then another .001" from throat to groove diameter. So for a 357 groove diameter I want my boolits to be .359" and my cylender throats to be .358".
BTW do you have a contact for that Fellow. I have a 22 cylender I want bored out to 32.
BIC/BS

[Dale53]

I and two friends just recently bought new Ruger SS Bisley 5½" .45 Colt/.45ACP convertibles. All six of the cylinders were undersize. Through the kindness of a mutual friend, I borrowed a Manson Reamer kit (with changeable pilots) and reamed all six cylinders to .4525". They are all now "perfect" and they shoot that way, also.

Undersize cylinder throats I can easily change (if you don't have access to the tooling, Cylindersmith only charges about $30.00 to ream a cylinder). I am not even complaining - with just a bit of effort, I have "custom" cylinder throats and a fine revolver that will last several generations with cast bullets for relatively small change. If I had paid $2,000 for that revolver I would feel completely different.

As a matter of interest, my two recent Ruger .44's (a 5½" .44 Lipsey Special and a 50th Anniversary .44 Magnum) had near perfect cylinder throats at .431" (round within .0005" - that's less than ½ a thousandth) and that is even better. The 50th Anniversary cost less than $400.00 delivered TOO.

I don't mind telling you, I am a Ruger fan...

Dale53

[dubber123]

Bullshop, yes, groove is what I meant, I changed my post. He really didn't want them over groove diameter.

Dale, cylindersmith won't open them up enough, .3585 is the only size he lists for the .38's.

[dubber123]

I got to check the fat boolit dummy rounds, and they chambered just fine, so I now have it on layaway. If I can figure out a good way to open the throats the .001" without sending it away I will. I am pretty confident it's a relatively easy fix.

[targetshootr]

You might could buy a reamer from Brownells and get most of your money back if you resell it. I have 44 and 45 reamers with pilots but don't shoot much 357 so no reamer.

[dubber123]

You might could buy a reamer from Brownells and get most of your money back if you resell it.

I'll have to look and see if they sell a .359" throating reamer. .358" seems to be the common one.

[Whitworth]

I got to check the fat boolit dummy rounds, and they chambered just fine, so I now have it on layaway. If I can figure out a good way to open the throats the .001" without sending it away I will. I am pretty confident it's a relatively easy fix.


dubber, Jack Huntington has done a boatload of work for me and I have three custom revolvers he built and I highly recommend you go that route. He is reasonably priced, fast, and his work is second to none.

[Bass Ackward]

Thanks for the information. I finally got ahold of Huntingtons, and he will open the throats to whatever I want for $65. He did strongly suggest I only open them to GROOVE size, even after telling him I would be shooting only cast. What say you guys? I have always been led to believe .001+" over bore is best. He does have a good rep, so maybe he's right?


Forget your size question for a moment. If you use a rotating tool, you are going to leave tool marks perpendicular to bullet travel that are at least .0005 deep and quite possibly more that will be removed by shooting. Added, that's .002 for a diameter.

Now, if you apply that to your question, you will end up with throats that will be a minimum of .359 in a few hundred rounds and probably larger depending on a whole host of factors.

All of this is perfect because as the bore cleans up, it will follow those measurements. he told you right.

[freedom arms 353]

Hi Folks,
this is Uwe from Germany.
Few weeks ago I have bought an early (Serialnumber 0195) used FA Mod. 353 in 357 Magnum Caliber (bigger frame with 5 chambers).
Now I am a little bit confused because of the Chamber troats disscussion. I wanted to reload my ammunition with a lead boolit so what would you suggest?
357 or 358 Diameter? I have no idea what is the exact diameter of the chamber troats or nor the barrel on my FA (how should I measure?)
Best regards
uwe

[Dale53]

The easiest way to measure the cylinder throats is to remove the cylinder from the revolver. Support the cylinder on a clean block of wood. Drive a slightly larger pure lead ball or slug through each cylinder carefully catching in on a soft cloth to avoid damaging it. You must CAREFULLY measure it with a quality micrometer. You HAVE to be careful not to compress the soft lead with the micrometer. Use your sense of touch carefully with the micrometer.

Record all settings. I venture to say, all throats in a FA will measure the same. Then size your bullets the same size as the throats. I size a bullet at .358" if the throat is .358". If it is .356", then I size .356"...

I shoot a variety of calibers in my revolvers from .32 to .454 Casull. My favorites are .32 S&W Long, .44 Special, and .45 ACP but only by a slim margine over .38/.357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt.

If a revolver will not do 1" or better at 25 yards (off a rest), I am NOT interested. That is my standard. My revolvers all do that with my home cast bullets (I shoot practically nothing else). I get NO leading and excellent accuracy. Follow these forum pages, and you too can do it.

FWIW
Dale53

[MakeMineA10mm]

Welcome Uwe! Glad to have you here!!

Dale answered your questions; I just wanted to say Hi and welcome!

[freedom arms 353]

Hi Folks,
after a few months of testing I gave up with lead. I used very accurate lead bullets from WM Bullets (Germany with green grease) in 357 (175 grains, TC) with 7 grains N340 powder and the Freedom Arms Revolver M 353 very fast became leaded in the chamber troats of the cylinder. Now I use 180 grains bullets coated with cooper from H & N /Germany).
Best regards
uwe from Germany

[cbrick]

Sorry to hear that,

The ONLY ways I have ever caused leading in a Freedom Arms cylinder is by using a bullet too short for the front driving band to be inside the throat when the round is loaded or . . . By using a bullet such as SAECO #399 that is a two diameter bullet and has a front driving band several thousands smaller than throat diameter, there is no way to size this bullet to fit the throats, the smaller front band allows the loaded round to lay at a slight angle in the chamber and then the middle band hits the edge of the throat as it enters and shaves lead.

If the bullet has to find and then jump into the throat because the front driving when chambered was too short to reach the throat it will shave lead and leave it in the throats. My most recent experience with this was with a S&W 624 44 Spl but the principal is the same regardless of which revolver. The cure was very simple, a longer bullet where the front driving band was already in the throats (and a mild snug fit) when the firing pin hit the primer. The more over throat diameter your bullets are sized in this condition the more cylinder leading you will get, right up to and including spitting it out on the front of the forcing cone. Keep shooting and the leading will migrate out to the barrel frame past the forcing cone and lead you to believe a B/F constriction is the problem. That's what I first thought with the Smith but it wasn't a barrel frame constriction, a longer bullet (sized the same) solved the problem.

Rick

[44man]

Sorry to hear that,

The ONLY ways I have ever caused leading in a Freedom Arms cylinder is by using a bullet too short for the front driving band to be inside the throat when the round is loaded or . . . By using a bullet such as SAECO #399 that is a two diameter bullet and has a front driving band several thousands smaller than throat diameter, there is no way to size this bullet to fit the throats, the smaller front band allows the loaded round to lay at a slight angle in the chamber and then the middle band hits the edge of the throat as it enters and shaves lead.

If the bullet has to find and then jump into the throat because the front driving when chambered was too short to reach the throat it will shave lead and leave it in the throats. My most recent experience with this was with a S&W 624 44 Spl but the principal is the same regardless of which revolver. The cure was very simple, a longer bullet where the front driving band was already in the throats (and a mild snug fit) when the firing pin hit the primer. The more over throat diameter your bullets are sized in this condition the more cylinder leading you will get, right up to and including spitting it out on the front of the forcing cone. Keep shooting and the leading will migrate out to the barrel frame past the forcing cone and lead you to believe a B/F constriction is the problem. That's what I first thought with the Smith but it wasn't a barrel frame constriction, a longer bullet (sized the same) solved the problem.

Rick
Is that not why a .38 does not shoot as good as a .357? or a .44 special in a mag? A .480 in a .475?
You have it right. But what do you do when all is correct and the gun refuses to shoot?
The truth is that the few Freedoms I have fooled with for years never had ANY leading in the barrels, clean as a whistle. One shoots, one is junk.
Now Freedom has gone chapter 11 or 7, don't remember but their greed and lack of precision for the price is a cost they have to bear.
Maybe Magnum Research will buy them and make a good gun.

[cbrick]

But what do you do when all is correct and the gun refuses to shoot?

Can't answer your question 44 man, I've yet to find one that wouldn't shoot exceptionaly well and I have worked with many of them in several calibers.

Rick


The truth is that the few Freedoms I have fooled with for years never had ANY leading in the barrels, clean as a whistle.

He didn't say barrel . . . He said cylinder. However, same here, never had any any leading worth mentioning in a FA barrel.

Rick

[44man]

Can't answer your question 44 man, I've yet to find one that wouldn't shoot exceptionaly well and I have worked with many of them in several calibers.

Rick



He didn't say barrel . . . He said cylinder. However, same here, never had any any leading worth mentioning in a FA barrel.

Rick
It has always galled me too. The gun is beautiful but like a Ruger or any other gun, all do not shoot. You have been lucky.
If you get a bad Freedom and try to sell it, you will take a huge loss even if the buyer does not know the history.
Can you say "Edsel?"

[onceabull]

Have you noticed how the all major gun auctions are choked up with the bad FA's, being sold "at a huge loss"...Onceabull

[cbrick]

It has always galled me too. The gun is beautiful but like a Ruger or any other gun, all do not shoot. You have been lucky.

If you get a bad Freedom and try to sell it, you will take a huge loss even if the buyer does not know the history.
Can you say "Edsel?"

I dunno 44 man, sure seems odd to me that ALL of the bad FA's went your way and ALL of the good ones came my way. Yep, very odd indeed.

I have worked with many FA's and competed against far more and they were all excellent shooting revolvers. I'm still looking for that Edsel and ain't found it yet.

Seems to me that the history is (from reading years of your posts) that you got into a pissin match with Bob Baker and you have been trying to discredit the revolver ever since. That would be a more successful tactic if you use it with people that don't shoot with and compete against FA's, they won't know and might believe.

My own experience with FA customer service is somewhere between excellent and outstanding and includes phone, letters and time spent with Bob Baker at the SHOT Show.

Rick

[longhorn]

Chapter 11. This will be interesting.

Mine is outstandingly accurate.

My only 2 experiences with FA's customer service, once 15 or so years ago, and just a few months ago, have both been exemplary.

[44man]

I dunno 44 man, sure seems odd to me that ALL of the bad FA's went your way and ALL of the good ones came my way. Yep, very odd indeed.

I have worked with many FA's and competed against far more and they were all excellent shooting revolvers. I'm still looking for that Edsel and ain't found it yet.

Seems to me that the history is (from reading years of your posts) that you got into a pissin match with Bob Baker and you have been trying to discredit the revolver ever since. That would be a more successful tactic if you use it with people that don't shoot with and compete against FA's, they won't know and might believe.

My own experience with FA customer service is somewhere between excellent and outstanding and includes phone, letters and time spent with Bob Baker at the SHOT Show.

Rick
I did compete against them and even with the junky Ruger sights, I beat them time and again. I shot 79 out of 80 at the state shoot and the last ram miss was my fault. I shot many 39's and 40's with my Ruger. I won state with the Ruger Mark II with no sight settings, new gun. I missed 3, first pig, turkey and ram. I got all the shoot off chickens at 100 yards. 57 out of 60!
Back then if you laid a Freedom and a Ruger on the bench, I would take the Freedom sights and the Ruger. Nobody ever beat me with a Freedom. For a fact, nobody ever out shot me with a revolver but I never went to the nationals where the DW was tops. But they went to pot just like Freedom is. DW made so many bad guns it was funny. A good one shot for sure. A bad one was a nightmare.
I will not tell you what I did with my MOA, Wichita, or XP 100. Maybe a little, like 5 shots in 3/8" at 100 meters.
Been there, done that, I am not a rookie. IHMSA got expensive and boring. Had to get rid of the 40 targets and shoot the little shoot off targets at 200 meters to win. Yes my POC Ruger would hit chicken after chicken at 200.
Today, give me a BFR and I will show what a revolver will do.
You push one lucky target but I show hundreds that are common.
Why is Freedom in financial trouble? Baker is not his father, he led the company to ruin.

[cbrick]

Now there you go again. :smile:

I never said that a Ruger wouldn't shoot so why try so hard to defend them?

Silhouette isn't boring to a lot of folks, me included. If Freedom is so bad, won't shoot, can never get them to shoot, they are Edsels, please explain (leaving out how well Rugers shoot) why in Master Class Revolver in NRA National Championships AND IHMSA International Revolver Class at both Championships that Freedom Arms is 95+% dominate?

Could it simply be that ALL of these Champion Long Range Revolver shooters in both sanctioning bodies only want to shoot revolvers that do not shoot, cannot be made to shoot? Yep, that's it indeed. FA's can't shoot, all these top revolver shooters simply like Edsels.

I know about your State Championship scores. I also have won Master Class Revolver State Championship with a perfect score of 60x60, with cast bullets of course. Did I forget to mention that I used an Edsel? Yep, I just wanted the extra challenge of winning with a revolver that cannot be made to shoot. I have also on a couple of occasions won the NRA National Championship Revolver Team event (also in other categories) and all three of us each time were using those Edsels.

Rick

[freedom arms 353]

Hi Folks,
I do not want to complain for my Freedom Arms Revolver. It is very accurate, high precision built and I love the weight and massive frame with the old style single action trigger.
I guess cbrick is right because the lead bullit has not reached the driving band inside of the chamber of the cylinder and exactly in that area (appr. 1-4 Millimeter) before of the driving band (which is of smaller diameter than the chamber itself) was the leading.
In the middle of the picture is the lead bullet (175grains) 357. I use the 451 lead bullet as shown on the right for my Les Baer Premier II and the bullet with the cooper coating now for the FA.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/geschosse.jpg
uwe from Germany
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/204/10550226.jpg/

[cbrick]

freedom arms 353,

Seems we have discovered the cause of your cylinder leading. The bullet you were using is the same bullet that caused the cylinder leading in my FA. I don't believe that with this bullet you will ever stop the cylinder leading. This bullet not only caused cylinder leading but also destroyed long range accuracy.

Your cylinder leading bullet (center in your photo) is SAECO #396, the same bullet on the left in my photo. The bullet on the right in my photo is the gas checked version, SAECO #399.

For the cylinder leading the gas check doesn't matter, its the two diameter bullet. The front driving band is considerably smaller than bullet diameter. Even though the front driving band is in the throat when a cartridge is chambered it allows the cartridge to lay at an angle in the chamber. When fired the middle driving band strikes the forward edge of the throat shaving lead and leaving it in the cylinder.

Both bullets (#396 & #399) in my photo are sized to properly fit my FA throats. Notice that the front driving band wasn't touched by the sizing die.

Your leading didn't stop because you started using a plated bullet. Your cylinder leading stopped because you stopped using the two diameter SAECO bullet.

You can very effectively shoot cast bullets in your FA with no leading, you simply need to use a bullet that when chambered the front driving band properly fits snugly in the throats, this will properly align the bullet in the throats and with the forcing cone and bore.

The cure to your cylinder leading problem really is that simple.

Rick

[freedom arms 353]

cbrick,
probably you are right. When I press (with my fingers and little force) the bullet in the throat of the cylinder with the head first, it fits. When I press the bullet in the throat of the cylinder with the other end first I need much more force.

Does is it mean I have to size every single bullet with a special dies to bring it in the correct diameter?

uwe from Germany

BTW: At the moment I plan to buy a S&W 17-3 in 22lfb (mint in the box). So probably leading will be no problem with that nice revolver:p

[44man]

Sorry Cbrick, it was Bakers attitude that done us in. I was not even involved yet. I listened to my friend talking to Baker on the phone at work. It was later I tried to help and try to make the gun shoot because my friend would hang up with a red face he was so angry. That started a few years of work. After Baker found I had slugged the bore and found it out of round and grossly oversize, he blamed me.
My friend had to pay $117 postage both ways for a barrel change. The new one was larger then the old one and still out of round. .3593" to 3599" with a .357" throat. Shot worse!
More nasty calls and E mails until Baker paid postage to fix the gun. He accused my friend of shooting lead and then jacketed, ruining the barrel. Lead was NOT shot at that time. He found I slugged the bore again so he blamed me for leaving lead in the bore and ruining it.
Finally the bore was right but he changed the cylinder too, I don't know why. It still would not shoot and every chamber shot to a different place.
The gun was put on consignment for over a year at less then half price, never sold. He sent it in on his dollar again and had a shorter barrel fit. NO IDEA WHY! It still will not shoot.
Along the line the hammer block failed and I had to make a new part that wore out. I also made a new trigger spring to reduce pull because postage and a $100 charge for the work was crazy. He just can't get rid of the gun.
Here is the chamber test, one of many.

[44man]

Now a friends .454. He never got it to shoot, used factory loads and jacketed boolits. He brought the gun to me and I was amazed at the damage from about 300 shots. The forcing cone was worn on one side and the rifling was almost gone on the same side. I cleaned the throats to find they were all worn on one side.
Cylinder too tight and out of line.
Defend the gun, I am not impressed and will never change my position.
I have been a gunsmith too many years to defend a bad product.
One shoots, the other is a waste of steel.
After much work I got the gun to shoot but I would not buy or own it.

[44man]

Jerry's .454 before and after I worked on it, Shot at 50 yards.
Another question for you. Freedom uses transfer bars and hammer blocks but warn to NEVER have a loaded round under the hammer. Explain why! They don't trust the design is why.

[cbrick]

Does is it mean I have to size every single bullet with a special dies to bring it in the correct diameter? uwe from Germany

NO, you will never get that two diameter bullet to shoot in a revolver without leading the cylinder. The only thing you could do by sizing is bring the bullet diameter down to the front driving band diameter, this would be a bullet of about a .352" and then you wouldn't have cylinder leading, you would have severe bore leading.

The only thing you can do with that SAECO two diameter bullet as it was designed and made is not use it in a revolver. It may work fine in a rifle or single shot pistol but a revolver MUST have the bullet a mild snug fit in the throats. The throats must be at or slightly larger than groove diameter, this should not be a problem with the FA.

Your plated bullet did not stop the cylinder leading because its plated, it stopped the leading because it is a much better fit in the throats, it is a one diameter bullet.

You can get the same or better results with a cast bullet that fits the throats but NOT ANY two diameter bullet.

You need a new cast bullet, one that is long enough that the front driving band chambers inside the throats and is sized to properly fit the throats. The SAECO cannot and never will fit the throats no matter what you do with it short of having the mold altered.

Are you casting your own or are you buying commercial cast? If your casting your own and you own this mold I highly recommend sending it off to Erik Ohlen @ Hollow Point Mold Service. Tell him you want the front driving band diameter to match the middle and base band diameters. Erik has done this on many molds for me and his craftsmanship is second to none. This is also a far cheaper option than a new mold, especially a SAECO mold. If you go this route you then need only to size the bullets to a mild snug fit in the throats and freedom arms 353 will be a happy camper.

Erik can be contacted here:

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/

Rick

[cbrick]

I am not impressed and will never change my position.

I would be shocked if you ever did. Is far better to slam the finest revolver ever made and the people that make them. Now be honest here 44man, it does give you a warm & fuzzy feeling to do that doesn't it?

It is not my intention here to get you to change your mind, I'm not foolish enough to think you ever would. It is my intention to give those that have no experience with FA's the opportunity to read some truth about the gun and those that make them. It seems that over the past several years and many posts between you and me that the vast majority of other posters that have experience with FA's are in complete agreement with me. Here is two recent examples.


Mine is outstandingly accurate.

My only 2 experiences with FA's customer service, once 15 or so years ago, and just a few months ago, have both been exemplary.


Have you noticed how the all major gun auctions are choked up with the bad FA's, being sold "at a huge loss"...Onceabull

After much work I got the gun to shoot but I would not buy or own it.

Nor should you. Would be a terrible thing to own such a fine revolver. Sorry, Edsel.


Freedom uses transfer bars and hammer blocks but warn to NEVER have a loaded round under the hammer. Explain why! They don't trust the design is why.

Yep, you must be correct here also. Never mind that your precious Ruger and EVERY SINGLE manufacturer of single action revolvers and every single gun writer worth his salt has exactly the same warning. Your of coarse right, it is ONLY FA that just plain and simple don't trust their own design because after all they are just Edsels. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with ambulance chasers. No, No, its only them Edsels from Wyoming and every single other maker of single action revolver with exactly the same warning are wonderful examples of firearm manufacture.

Rick

[44man]

Seems to me that every S&W, Ruger, BFR and just how many other makes do not have that warning. Fill the chambers, 5 or 6, whatever the gun holds.
I get no warm feelings, the gun could have been great. It needed changes, it needed a good owner. I hate the fact that any gun has problems. But being stubborn has ruined a lot of products.
I make my own molds and if a boolit is not right, I toss the mold. A bad load is tossed. A bad gun is sold or fixed. I feel real bad for the buyer and if I sold you a lemon I would always feel bad.
But a bad gun sold to someone I will never meet again is like Baker selling his guns. I am guilty too, sticking someone with junk. I do not make a practice of it. One or two bad ones in my life is not like thousands. I still think of the poor guys I sold stuff to, it really does bother me.
If I owned Freedom I would shut the place down and solve the problems before selling another gun.
They made their bed and have to sleep in it.
I detest cheating anyone, I detest owing money.
I used to repair TV's on the side. I made tons of money but it was from many customers. Lots of good work, not a pile of money from one. I would fix a TV from a lightning strike for $20. Then go to a a friends house to shoot to find they paid $90 for what I just did. They did not know I fixed TV's.
One would come in for a sound problem. I fixed that and did a full color and gray scale setup. The customer would go crazy so the next day when I came home, my garage was full of TV's from as far as 100 miles away.
Workmanship and pride, I felt good with a happy customer. Same with gunsmith work. A little money from each job added up instead of cheating one person.
I found a TV shop was adjusting the convergence on neighbors sets and leaving the thumbscrews loose so even traffic on the road would jar it out. NO, NO! I got all the work. 1/4 the price too.
Cbrick, you do not know me at all. I do not lie or cheat. I never got rich but I am forever proud of my dealings with people.
And my shooting is not keyboard junk either. It is real.
Facts are stated as I see them. Nothing else is as important as helping another person.
Push the Freedoms and I will push back as hard. Truth is my nature.

[cbrick]

So that's it. Freedom Arms has but one goal, to CHEAT as many people as possible out of as much money as possible. Sounds like sound business practice to me :roll:.

I'll repeat this again, you must have missed it the first few times. It's extremely odd that all of the good FA's (I know, you won't admit to there be any) go to me and to all of the silhouette shooters around the world and all of the hunters AND ALL of the bad ones go to you. Don't you think that's really odd? I do!

You are so soured on the company, the people that run it and the revolver that it’s really doubtful you could recognize or even admit to a good FA if you had it in your hands. Before you ever picked it up you would be convinced through and through its junk and nothing would ever change your mind about that. You are so soured on FA that if it shot perfectly for you, you would find something horrible about it whether that something is based in reality or not. That's really a shame.

You got into a pissin match with FA and ever since then everyone should know what horrible people run the company and what an incredibly inferior product they try and push off on people. This is your position even in the face of about 99-1 posts that contradict your position and your obvious prejudice.

I have never questioned your shooting ability, your knowledge of handloading or of loading for and shooting the revolver; in this you have my respect. Your vendetta against FA however is easily seen for what it is by me and I’m sure many others.

You should stop, sit back and give serious thought to how foolish this makes you look in spite of your other accomplishments.

Rick

[44man]

Not foolish, related as it happened, nothing more, nothing less. 100% truth.
Take it or leave it. You do not know the circumstances, was not here. Don't try to change facts.

[cbrick]

Interesting, tell me just what fact I changed?

Rick

[onceabull]

Rick,as previously stated elsewhere, The "one most likely", is that this "44man"and his former supporter Vs.Freedom Arms(the infamous "Monte") tried to do a Jr.Askins on the company,and didn't qualify for "comped" revolvers..as to the up for auction rumor seen on the Arabs'board, damn quiet sort of auction they are holding,no...This guy is the one with 40+++ years of gunsmithing , who didn't know what line-boring a revolver involved till learning it on the internet gunboards... Onceabull

[44man]

Same old problem. I do not dispute that Cbrick is a great shot and his Freedoms do shoot. Never said that at all. I have seen many that DO shoot. I hate to argue with him.
The problem is that some do not so accept the fact that not all are right.
This is where we part ways. For the price and name, not a single gun should leave the factory unless perfect in every way. That premise was not followed and it is hurting all the workers.
Remember when the DW came out? WONDERFUL gun with shrouds and barrels in a case so you could change barrels. Accurate as a revolver could be. Then a new owner and they went into a scrap pile. You needed to buy 10, find one and sell the rest. Took a long time for them to come back but reputation was ruined. I shot their 1911 at 50 yards and had several 1/2" groups---YEAH, YEAH, I DID but reputation means a lot.
Bob Baker took the gun into the DW range. He refused to come back like DW did. He is abrasive unless you hold out a check. Praise him and hold out money and he would embrace you but if you complain---GET OUT! Even the store in front of the factory would not let you touch a gun. Look at it through glass until you cut a check.
I am a mean, contrary old bastard but will never steer you wrong. If you don't like it, don't read my posts.

[44man]

Rick,as previously stated elsewhere, The "one most likely", is that this "44man"and his former supporter Vs.Freedom Arms(the infamous "Monte") tried to do a Jr.Askins on the company,and didn't qualify for "comped" revolvers..as to the up for auction rumor seen on the Arabs'board, damn quiet sort of auction they are holding,no...This guy is the one with 40+++ years of gunsmithing , who didn't know what line-boring a revolver involved till learning it on the internet gunboards... Onceabull
Explain line boring to me! Do you know how it is done? Show step to step for all.

[sixshot]

I've just returned from Raton, New Mexico where several of us (perhaps 80) shot every type of handgun known to mankind! We shot for a week, just like always. There were possibly 100 Freedom Arms guns there, I shot a lot of them from the 22's & 32's up to the 500's, every single gun shot terrific, & they shot great for everyone else, we shot them out to 600 yds & even in a good old New Mexico wind the guns were very accurate. One friend owns 17 of them, another told me he had 16, I'm sure several of them owned as many as 10, somebody's happy!
I've owned a 10" 454 & a 6" 475, the latter being used in Africa with very good results. I live 45 minutes from Freedom Arms & have never been told I can't handle the guns in the display case. The Baker family & the FA guns are outstanding & certainly don't need me to defend them, their products are being used all over the world.
Sometimes a person can buy a Toyota or Chevy Impala & have trouble, even if its new, the same thing can happen with a Cadillac or an Porche, also there are times when the "home town" mechanic decides to "work" his magic on them & bad things happen. Even changing the oil can get some people in trouble.
Can a bad product get out there, of course, anything is possible but the finest pistolsmiths in the country have to work extremely hard to approach the quality of a Freedom Arms gun, thats a fact.

Dick

[felix]

Are we not getting a little too emotional about quality? I learned my lesson about this with my products: computer hardware and software, and mostly the latter because that was my calling card. Any customer will expect what he determines as quality, and that determination changes over time. That's why a product must be produced in "zero" time, especially if the product desired is narrowed down between others for the same purpose. In other words, the product desired is from promotional material, rather than from the specs needed for the job. My customers about always wanted what they desired from hard specs, and that was typical of my clients. Other clients took what I had on-hand and then had me modify the "quality" as they used the product. I agree, a lot of changes were cosmetic, and other mods were based upon "creeping elegance".

In other words, Dick, our 44man, Jim, is right on from this prospective. Quality is an undefined term and is usually based upon the relationship between time, money, and the underlining blue print (hard specs).

Accuracy, purely and simply, is a quality term because it is outside of the product definition. To make a gun accurate in real time, i.e., not future time, the product must include a guidance system.

... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

Ok felix how about he english version for us dummys! Cbrick No use getting to wound up here. We all know what 44mans thoughts are on FA guns. Hes said so much bad things about them that hes back himself into a corner and probably never would be able to say something good about them again. No big deal to me. I dont buy any gun to impress someone else and could really give a rats ass if 44man likes my new gun or not and im sure he feels the same.

[cbrick]

Cbrick No use getting to wound up here.

Rick isn't wound up, upset or anything else. As I've already posted, its only my intention to post a little factual reality to help counter the personal vendetta based in hatred and not common sense, truth or reality that's being waged.


I dont buy any gun to impress someone else and could really give a rats ass if 44man likes my new gun or not and im sure he feels the same.

Buy a gun to impress someone else?? That would be a really strange & silly thing to do. I do however buy guns that impress me and my FA's do impress me very time I shoot one of them.

I do have one serious problem with Freedom Arms Revolvers though . . . I currently ONLY have two. I gotta fix that.

Rick

[44man]

Ok felix how about he english version for us dummys! Cbrick No use getting to wound up here. We all know what 44mans thoughts are on FA guns. Hes said so much bad things about them that hes back himself into a corner and probably never would be able to say something good about them again. No big deal to me. I dont buy any gun to impress someone else and could really give a rats ass if 44man likes my new gun or not and im sure he feels the same.
I have said a million times that a good one is great. Get a bad one and you will suck hind tit because you will get no relief.
I sent a bad DW to the factory because the barrel pointed sideways, internal parts did not work and the front of the cylinder wobbled. Set one chamber with the feeler gauge and the next would lock the gun. All they did was face the cylinder when the gun should have been tossed and a new one sent after making sure it was right.
I sold it and no matter how many won IHMSA, I would never buy another.
One or two bad Freedoms will not make up for all the good ones because the company would not apologize and replace the guns.
Do you have a good one? KEEP IT because if you get a bad one you are stuck with it.
My biggest gripe was with Freedoms barrels and who they got them from. No quality control. Every one went on a gun.

[44man]

Rick,as previously stated elsewhere, The "one most likely", is that this "44man"and his former supporter Vs.Freedom Arms(the infamous "Monte") tried to do a Jr.Askins on the company,and didn't qualify for "comped" revolvers..as to the up for auction rumor seen on the Arabs'board, damn quiet sort of auction they are holding,no...This guy is the one with 40+++ years of gunsmithing , who didn't know what line-boring a revolver involved till learning it on the internet gunboards... Onceabull
You have come up with no answer! Why not?
Line boring is done with a jig in the frame threads so the cylinder latch holds the cylinder. There is NO BARREL.
Are the threads straight in the frame?? How much play in the jig and boring bar?
A hole is made but the cylinder has to be finished bored and chambered OUT OF THE GUN from the rear so how close is that cutter? How precise is the indexing?
Now a junk barrel is screwed in so just how centered is the bore to the threads?
Now lock the cylinder super tight so a bullet can't align and it will wear the metal sideways.
Look at one other thing. The cylinder is close in head space to the recoil plate and the hole might not go through from the front. Maybe a pin prick. Maybe a precise stop with a mill.
However you look at it it is just too many operations. How does a frame get mounted to the tools perfect?
Did you not see one of my chamber tests where every chamber shot to a different place?
What did you think? Where the chambers made from the front?
I make my own boolit molds and the blocks NEVER GET MOVED in the vise.

[44man]

I've just returned from Raton, New Mexico where several of us (perhaps 80) shot every type of handgun known to mankind! We shot for a week, just like always. There were possibly 100 Freedom Arms guns there, I shot a lot of them from the 22's & 32's up to the 500's, every single gun shot terrific, & they shot great for everyone else, we shot them out to 600 yds & even in a good old New Mexico wind the guns were very accurate. One friend owns 17 of them, another told me he had 16, I'm sure several of them owned as many as 10, somebody's happy!
I've owned a 10" 454 & a 6" 475, the latter being used in Africa with very good results. I live 45 minutes from Freedom Arms & have never been told I can't handle the guns in the display case. The Baker family & the FA guns are outstanding & certainly don't need me to defend them, their products are being used all over the world.
Sometimes a person can buy a Toyota or Chevy Impala & have trouble, even if its new, the same thing can happen with a Cadillac or an Porche, also there are times when the "home town" mechanic decides to "work" his magic on them & bad things happen. Even changing the oil can get some people in trouble.
Can a bad product get out there, of course, anything is possible but the finest pistolsmiths in the country have to work extremely hard to approach the quality of a Freedom Arms gun, thats a fact.

Dick
You need to get real. ONE revolver can win every single shoot. Having 16 or 17 means they were bought to find the best one and they are stuck with the rest. :bigsmyl2:
Let me see, 17 guns are around $39,000. Just whose mind are you trying to screw up? Maybe that is what it takes to get a $2 trophy. [smilie=p:
Or is it because guys were dumping bad guns and they were picked up for a song? I might buy one for $200 but I doubt it unless I could shoot it for a while. [smilie=l:

[cbrick]

Get a bad one and you will suck hind tit because you will get no relief.

Do you have a good one? KEEP IT because if you get a bad one you are stuck with it.

That is blatantly false, untrue and bordering on if not an outright lie.

I ordered my current 357 from the factory through my smith's FFL, when it arrived I went over to sign the paper work and have a look at it. I didn't like the look of the forcing cone, just didn't look right to me. From my smiths office I called FA and told them it just didn't look right to me. They said to send it back and they would look at it. A week later FA called my smith and said the forcing cone was cut incorrectly and they were replacing the barrel and would return it by the end of the week.

When it came back I looked it over and it did indeed have a new barrel. To this day this revolver is an excellent shooter that has shot a state championship 60x60 and many other excellent scores.

FA won't replace something that's wrong, your stuck with it?? That is pure dribble.

I'll say it again 44man, your personal vendetta against FA is extremely obvious and only serves to discredit you, not FA. Can't you see this?

Rick

[sixshot]

44man, make no mistake about it, I am real! The fellows that owned these guns, & there were lots of them have them because they are the best you can buy. They've bought them over many years & the one who owns 17 has hunted many different countries around the world, taking just about anything that can be hunted.
We don't shoot for trophies at this event, it is a gathering of many good friends who enjoy each others company. Of the many dozens of FA guns I shot, anyone of them would be easily capable of winning any type of accuracy shoot at any distance.
I enjoy reading about your experiences & think you bring a lot to the table when you aren't in one of your moods, but it takes away from your credibility when you try to belittle a product that is so proven, just because you had a bad experience with one. After quite a few years its time to get over it & move on, the torch you are carrying burned out a long time ago.
Keep sharing your experience because it helps a lot of readers but take the chip off your shoulder & man up! Take a deep breath & let it go! Most of us find a way to disagree agreeably, quit trying to sucker punch everyone who has a different view point than you do.

Dick

[44man]

44man, make no mistake about it, I am real! The fellows that owned these guns, & there were lots of them have them because they are the best you can buy. They've bought them over many years & the one who owns 17 has hunted many different countries around the world, taking just about anything that can be hunted.
We don't shoot for trophies at this event, it is a gathering of many good friends who enjoy each others company. Of the many dozens of FA guns I shot, anyone of them would be easily capable of winning any type of accuracy shoot at any distance.
I enjoy reading about your experiences & think you bring a lot to the table when you aren't in one of your moods, but it takes away from your credibility when you try to belittle a product that is so proven, just because you had a bad experience with one. After quite a few years its time to get over it & move on, the torch you are carrying burned out a long time ago.
Keep sharing your experience because it helps a lot of readers but take the chip off your shoulder & man up! Take a deep breath & let it go! Most of us find a way to disagree agreeably, quit trying to sucker punch everyone who has a different view point than you do.

Dick
I don't, I get punched first, in the middle and last. I have no moods. I only tell what is found. I never get angry and have no rows to dig.
Truth first, problems first. It generates hate--- so be it.
I do not know rich people that can afford 17 Freedoms and hunt the world. One gun and deer hunting is a lot for some. One gun should shoot and must shoot. To get junk after spending money more then a house payment really hurts.
Trust in a product to make expenditures worth while is what counts. Not how rich you are.
Like a gun writer with 3000 guns telling you how each shoots, kind of funny!
Who do you trust? I trust the man with one gun that knows it.

[cbrick]

17 FA's? What a shame that's not me, can we say green with envy?. I currently only have two and that's a shame also.

I do know a guy that has 8-10, every one a different flavor. Only ever seen one of those at the silhouette range, his 10" octagon barrel 44 Mag.

Rick

[Lloyd Smale]

I believe sixshot is talking about the shootist holiday and if so its a gathering of some of the best and most knowlegable men ive had the pleasure of meeting. At least the ones ive met. Very few egos in that group. I know guys that collect rugers and have may more then 17. im not a collector im a shooter and have well over 17 rugers in the house.

[44man]

Regardless of how many guns someone owns, I have had fantastic guns of all kinds. But when conditions changed and I could not shoot long range Varmint or the animal hunted changed, the guns had to be sold so I could afford different to match what I then had.
I would have 1000 guns if I was rich and never needed to sell any.
That means a gun MUST shoot and if it will not, it is gone quick. It is why I get my guns that I have to shoot the best.
I can't take the chance that a years worth of money will turn up a real scud. No trust or confidence is a game killer. I refuse to take a chance.
The amount spent on custom guns amazes me and some are really nice but I must get an out of box revolver to shoot and if it doesn't I don't want to lose money on it.
I never brag about how many guns I own and I never brag about how a gun shoots, I tell you all how so you can achieve better with what you have. Should years of work done because I was never flush with money go to waste?
I don't envy a single person, don't pull that stuff on me. I am richer. I can't shoot 1000 rounds a week but if I take 1 shot a month, I assure you, it will hit where aimed. Any gun with a problem is so much wasted metal.
Why does anyone need 17 Freedoms? 16 safe queens and one shooter? :veryconfu
I own ONE Ruger .44 with way over 61,000 rounds through it and it will make your eyes bulge with how it still shoots, it is a laser.
A poor man makes do, a rich man just spends more money without learning a thing. :coffee:

[doghawg]

........I never brag about how a gun shoots.......

I own ONE Ruger .44 with way over 61,000 rounds through it and it will make your eyes bulge with how it still shoots, it is a laser.

:confused::popcorn:

[cbrick]

Why does anyone need 17 Freedoms? 16 safe queens and one shooter? :veryconfu


A poor man makes do, a rich man just spends more money without learning a thing. :coffee:


Any gun with a problem is so much wasted metal.

I guess its official now. Regardless of how many you have you may only shoot ONE, the rest WILL remain in the safe! Forever! It is only possible that one will shoot and ALL of the rest have a problem, so much wasted metal safe queens!

This is confusing. Does this mean that if your rich your stupid, that your not capable of learning? Does this mean that if you have more than one gun your rich? Does this mean that since you may only shoot one no matter how many you have, that because there are others at home in the safe that you cannot learn anything? Does this mean that because there are guns at home in the safe that they have a problem and are wasted metal safe queens?

I am so confused. :veryconfu I have two FA's, does that mean that I am rich? Or does it mean I am stupid because I am rich? If I take one to the range today and leave the other in the safe does it mean that it has a problem and is nothing more than a safe queen? What if I take the one that was in the safe today (the safe queen) to the range tomorrow and leave todays FA in the safe tomorrow, which one now has a problem? This is so confusing!

Hhmmm . . . I am so rich (or is it stupid?) that I very much want another FA. I am so rich (or stupid) that I have been saving for a year to get a 5 inch 45 colt FA. Could it be that I simply want another wasted metal safe queen? Could it simply be that I want to feel more rich/stupid?

Could it be that I am saving up for a firearm that I have wanted for a very long time, one that I will get tremendous pleasure from even if its the safe queen at home today with a problem?

So confusing, so confused. I wish I was poor/smart so I could figure this out. :veryconfu

Rick

[44man]

I guess its official now. Regardless of how many you have you may only shoot ONE, the rest WILL remain in the safe! Forever! It is only possible that one will shoot and ALL of the rest have a problem, so much wasted metal safe queens!

This is confusing. Does this mean that if your rich your stupid, that your not capable of learning? Does this mean that if you have more than one gun your rich? Does this mean that since you may only shoot one no matter how many you have, that because there are others at home in the safe that you cannot learn anything? Does this mean that because there are guns at home in the safe that they have a problem and are wasted metal safe queens?

I am so confused. :veryconfu I have two FA's, does that mean that I am rich? Or does it mean I am stupid because I am rich? If I take one to the range today and leave the other in the safe does it mean that it has a problem and is nothing more than a safe queen? What if I take the one that was in the safe today (the safe queen) to the range tomorrow and leave todays FA in the safe tomorrow, which one now has a problem? This is so confusing!

Hhmmm . . . I am so rich (or is it stupid?) that I very much want another FA. I am so rich (or stupid) that I have been saving for a year to get a 5 inch 45 colt FA. Could it be that I simply want another wasted metal safe queen? Could it simply be that I want to feel more rich/stupid?

Could it be that I am saving up for a firearm that I have wanted for a very long time, one that I will get tremendous pleasure from even if its the safe queen at home today with a problem?

So confusing, so confused. I wish I was poor/smart so I could figure this out. :veryconfu

Rick
No, I did not call you rich. You don't understand, I have one .44 left but have owned a great deal of them. I have one .475, one 45-70, one Old Army, one Wichita, one MOA, 2 Mark II's and a Vaquero.
That is small change compared to what else I have owned and had to sell.
Working on guns I have had thousands available to fix, shoot and test.
But you can't see the picture! My revolvers shoot so I will shoot a deer with one, then take another for the next deer, etc. There is never a need to own 2 .44's or 6 or 20. Mine does it all.
I do have 2 BFR's and if I had money I would own one of every caliber made. I would also own many Rugers in different calibers and a bunch of S&W's.
I still would need to be able to shoot a Freedom for a long time before signing my name to a check. The name is not proof to me, only the individual gun is.
The SRH I had to sell was deadly and pop cans could be hit at 200 yards but I just can not part with my SBH, it is an old friend.

[freedom arms 353]

Hi Folks,
I really can not evaluate the exact precission of the whole range of a FA (mine M353 is great) but I only want to let you know, that I have visited the guys at FA few weeks ago when I was on holiday in WY and I must say these guys are great. They took time to show me the factory (OK, with protection glasses) and explained a troublesome German everything he wanted to know. Only when I asked them to change Jobs (I remain in Freedom and he goes to Germany) he refused :cry:
So these guys made me a wonderful experience and God bless them [smilie=s:
uwe from Germany

[44man]

Over size bores and undersize throats are not friendly to jacketed either. Just where does that idea come from?

[Old Caster]

I'm confused. If I am stupid why and how did I become rich. When anyone sees one of these FA revolvers that "may" be no good for the $200 let me know. Just because I am rich doesn't mean that I want to spend it. I'm saving that for taxes.

[44man]

I'm confused. If I am stupid why and how did I become rich. When anyone sees one of these FA revolvers that "may" be no good for the $200 let me know. Just because I am rich doesn't mean that I want to spend it. I'm saving that for taxes.
Rich is good and rich do not waste money. A collector is fine. Buy stuff that you like.
If you have 17 or 100 Freedom guns or Ruger's or S&W's, just don't try to tell me all shoot the same. Just which one would you take to a shoot or hunting?
Yes a Freedom CAN shoot and be perfect but look what sucking money from customers has netted them. Inferior bulk barrels and the line boring that can fail. Just how do you put a jig in the frame, start a hole and remove the cylinder to chamber it from the other end? Does the hole in the bulk barrel align exactly in the center of the threads? Has any barrel been air gauged?
Lock the gun super tight and make it pretty, shooter be damned.
A cylinder in my old catalog was $343. Ruger was $70 and after they made me a new one they returned my check. FREE!!!
A good rear sight is $138 for the Freedom. $20 for a front sight---Ruger was free or a small charge.
Octagon barrel $455. $100 for a grip or for the 83, $135.
Drill and tap a revolver- $124. Spring change to lighten the trigger--near $100.
Need a new barrel and you are looking at $268 to $346 but if you want a new octagon, how about $688?
$71 for a grip sling stud, seems to me I paid pennies for a whole pile of them. 20 minutes to install.
I just drilled and tapped a Mark I for a base and put on an Ultra for a bottle of booze.
Love your Freedoms and pay through the nose. The money suck has made a whirlpool and soon a bunch of illegal Mexicans will be making them. They might be better! :kidding:
One catalog made me realize Bob Baker is a crazy fool and will never see a dime from me. $230 for Micarta grips---are you CRAZY? Did you know a .45 Colt cylinder cost $264 for the .454?
And this is an OLD catalog.

[Hammerhead]

My .357 F/A (model 97) slugs .358" and the throats are .358" also. The top of the lands had quite a few tool marks and it leaded for the first couple years. You can still se the marks, but it no longer leads. It was not a big issue for me at the time because I shot mostly jacketed bullets for years. Accuracy has always been outstanding, even with a scope and benchrest. My only issue now is that it keeps breaking springs.

[onceabull]

Direct advice from the handguns forum moderator on another board..."----Jim,you need to get back on your meds and seek some help----" Onceabull

[Whitworth]

44man -- why is it that you are on a crusade? Live and let live. There is a reason Freedoms dominate IHMSA, and it isn't because the people who compete feel the compulsion to spend more money.

You're seriously damaging your credibility with this senseless diatribe against Freedom Arms. Let it go. No one is forcing you to buy or shoot one. It's okay. Variety is the spice of life. This forum would be a boring place if everyone only shot Rugers, or BFRs, or whatever.

[jwp475]

44man, make no mistake about it, I am real! The fellows that owned these guns, & there were lots of them have them because they are the best you can buy. They've bought them over many years & the one who owns 17 has hunted many different countries around the world, taking just about anything that can be hunted.
We don't shoot for trophies at this event, it is a gathering of many good friends who enjoy each others company. Of the many dozens of FA guns I shot, anyone of them would be easily capable of winning any type of accuracy shoot at any distance.
I enjoy reading about your experiences & think you bring a lot to the table when you aren't in one of your moods, but it takes away from your credibility when you try to belittle a product that is so proven, just because you had a bad experience with one. After quite a few years its time to get over it & move on, the torch you are carrying burned out a long time ago. Keep sharing your experience because it helps a lot of readers but take the chip off your shoulder & man up! Take a deep breath & let it go! Most of us find a way to disagree agreeably, quit trying to sucker punch everyone who has a different view point than you do.

Dick



Spot on...

[jwp475]

Rich is good and rich do not waste money. A collector is fine. Buy stuff that you like.
If you have 17 or 100 Freedom guns or Ruger's or S&W's, just don't try to tell me all shoot the same. Just which one would you take to a shoot or hunting?
Yes a Freedom CAN shoot and be perfect but look what sucking money from customers has netted them. Inferior bulk barrels and the line boring that can fail. Just how do you put a jig in the frame, start a hole and remove the cylinder to chamber it from the other end? Does the hole in the bulk barrel align exactly in the center of the threads? Has any barrel been air gauged?
Lock the gun super tight and make it pretty, shooter be damned.
A cylinder in my old catalog was $343. Ruger was $70 and after they made me a new one they returned my check. FREE!!!
A good rear sight is $138 for the Freedom. $20 for a front sight---Ruger was free or a small charge.
Octagon barrel $455. $100 for a grip or for the 83, $135.
Drill and tap a revolver- $124. Spring change to lighten the trigger--near $100.
Need a new barrel and you are looking at $268 to $346 but if you want a new octagon, how about $688?
$71 for a grip sling stud, seems to me I paid pennies for a whole pile of them. 20 minutes to install.
I just drilled and tapped a Mark I for a base and put on an Ultra for a bottle of booze.
Love your Freedoms and pay through the nose. The money suck has made a whirlpool and soon a bunch of illegal Mexicans will be making them. They might be better! :kidding:
One catalog made me realize Bob Baker is a crazy fool and will never see a dime from me. $230 for Micarta grips---are you CRAZY? Did you know a .45 Colt cylinder cost $264 for the .454?
And this is an OLD catalog.



Line boring can fail, oh really......

You call Bob Baker a "crazy fool" and with a straight face claim to not be full of hate and subject to bad moods...

This cnstaint bashing of the FA's and gun writers is wearing thin on other sites as well. You may want to tone it done before you get the boot

[jwp475]

Direct advice from the handguns forum moderator on another board..."----Jim,you need to get back on your meds and seek some help----" Onceabull



Hopefully he will take heed

[cbrick]

The sad part of this is that 44 man doesn't seem to be able to see that he is hurting his own credibility far more than that of Freedom Arms. He can't see that he is not spreading the word, few reading his FA posts believe a word of it.

His FA vendetta is truly a shame because he has so much to offer in his shooting/handloading/casting posts on the revolver. I for one wish he would stick to this/his area of expertise and stop tearing himself down.

Rick

[44man]

44man -- why is it that you are on a crusade? Live and let live. There is a reason Freedoms dominate IHMSA, and it isn't because the people who compete feel the compulsion to spend more money.

You're seriously damaging your credibility with this senseless diatribe against Freedom Arms. Let it go. No one is forcing you to buy or shoot one. It's okay. Variety is the spice of life. This forum would be a boring place if everyone only shot Rugers, or BFRs, or whatever.
No crusade at all. Only things as I see them. I have said the same about all kinds of guns. Yet, get a Remington that has a problem and it will be FIXED FREE. Have a bad Ruger and call them, they will send you a box, postage on their dime.
Have I been wrong about prices?
If I screw up a gun, it is always on my dime too. I have built too many custom rifles with custom checkering. A $300 piece of wood before even inletting. I screw it up, I buy it.
Sorry some of you feel that way but my customers always came back, never one angry, more work only. Trust with the best work I could do at a decent price. Pride of workmanship, friends for life.
Don't give me that crusade stuff, they made their bed with greed.
I will do everything for you even if I lose money. That is how any good company works. Never make anything bad and you make money. When you need to fix, you lose money. To make the customer pay for your bad choices, you drop from sight.
I am still here. Not rich with money but super rich with friends. Come with a dollar in your pocket, I will work for you and you just might go home with that dollar. Pay for parts or postage. You are a man with a family to feed and it might be your last dollar. I will not turn you away.
Don't ever accuse me of a crusade. Look at facts. Greed is the devils work and it will catch up to you.
A good rear sight might be $50 which is really too much. If I charged you $138, you are a fool if it sounds good.
Read the catalog, every single thing has a super price. At the price of the basic gun they should give you a $300,000 home with a pool. OOPs , the filter is $200,000 more and the skimmer is $100,000.
Just what is wrong with Freedom owners?
Freedom does not dominate IHMSA. Never did either. Actually, Dan Wesson did until they went to pot. Ruger does as good.

[Whitworth]

Again you are missing the point. It is a crusade when you never miss out on an opportunity to take a shot. I am not the only one who notices this stuff. Again, if someone is willing to pay a premium for something that is a little nicer, be it a revolver, a car, clothes, whatever, it is their prerogative to do so. Who am I to judge or deride?

[onceabull]

What could be closer to nowhere than business advice from a shadetree "gunsmith" known to cadge reloading components on the internet boards ?????????? Onceabull

[jwp475]

I like the Bowen rear sight on my Rugers much more than the Ruger stock rear sight and I am willing to pay what they cost which is 79.95 and the Rough Country Rear is 89.95 plus shipping

You have a problem with people that like the finer things in life


You are killing your credibility, if your have any left at this point

[cbrick]

Freedom does not dominate IHMSA. Never did either. Actually, Dan Wesson did until they went to pot. Ruger does as good.

And now for the truth . . .

Dan Wesson DID dominate IHMSA and NRA sanctioned handgun silhouette . . .

Right up until the time FA came out with the 44 at which time DW was finished. Rare to even see a DW at a match these days but every once in awhile one shows up. FA is 95%+ at any long range silhouette match in revolver category. Smallbore revolver? 98%+ FA and the winners results are higher than that.

Ruger does as good? http://www.lasc.us/z7shysterical.gif
Haven't even seen a Ruger competing in long range in several years, still a few Sevilles around. If they do "as good" why aren't they at the matches winning? Why aren't they listed in the winners results on a par with FA? If these $600.00 revolvers are "as good" why aren't people using them and winning with them? Not a slam against Ruger, I have several and a brand new one on the way but they are not silhouette guns.

FA is total and complete domination in revolver handgun silhouette, both IHMSA and NRA. Stating such lies only changes it in your mind 44man, only makes YOU look bad. Why can't you see that?

Why don't you get back on your meds so you can get back to what your very good at, writing about casting, handloading and shooting revolvers. That would be so much better than dreaming up and printing falsehoods, your posts would once again be something to look forward to.

Rick

[Whitworth]

And now for the truth . . .

Dan Wesson DID dominate IHMSA and NRA sanctioned handgun silhouette . . .

Right up until the time FA came out with the 44 at which time DW was finished. Rare to even see a DW at a match these days but every once in awhile one shows up. FA is 95%+ at any long range silhouette match in revolver category. Smallbore revolver? 98%+ FA and the winners results are higher than that.

Ruger does as good? http://www.lasc.us/z7shysterical.gif
Haven't even seen a Ruger competing in long range in several years, still a few Sevilles around. If they do "as good" why aren't they at the matches winning? Why aren't they listed in the winners results on a par with FA? If these $600.00 revolvers are "as good" why aren't people using them and winning with them? Not a slam against Ruger, I have several and a brand new one on the way but they are not silhouette guns.

FA is total and complete domination in revolver handgun silhouette, both IHMSA and NRA.

That's what I was talking about.......

[jwp475]

And now for the truth . . .

Dan Wesson DID dominate IHMSA and NRA sanctioned handgun silhouette . . .

Right up until the time FA came out with the 44 at which time DW was finished. Rare to even see a DW at a match these days but every once in awhile one shows up. FA is 95%+ at any long range silhouette match in revolver category. Smallbore revolver? 98%+ FA and the winners results are higher than that.

Ruger does as good? http://www.lasc.us/z7shysterical.gif
Haven't even seen a Ruger competing in long range in several years, still a few Sevilles around. If they do "as good" why aren't they at the matches winning? Why aren't they listed in the winners results on a par with FA? If these $600.00 revolvers are "as good" why aren't people using them and winning with them? Not a slam against Ruger, I have several and a brand new one on the way but they are not silhouette guns.

FA is total and complete domination in revolver handgun silhouette, both IHMSA and NRA. Stating such lies only changes it in your mind 44man, only makes YOU look bad. Why can't you see that?

Why don't you get back on your meds so you can get back to what your very good at, writing about casting, handloading and shooting revolvers. That would be so much better than dreaming up and printing falsehoods, your posts would once again be something to look forward to.

Rick



Exactly........ 44 Man to continue your untruthfull bashing of FA's is not helping you or anyone else, for the love of god man "give it up" nobody buys your BS, nobody can't you understand that?

[jwp475]

I remember when FA's first hit the IHMSA ranges, they were so dominate that there was a push to make FA's shoot in the unlimited class becausethey were so dominate

[44MAG#1]

See this is what I tried to get people to understand about the "Can we discuss the 454" thread started by him awhile back I guess people now see that I was more observant than most would admit.
It must be awful to have to carry a burden that is so heavy that it fill one with hate and animosity toward someone or something.
That is the reason I will not respond to anything he posts in a direct way. To sit and stew in ones own vile hatred of a gun or anything else must surely be a miserable existance.

[Old Caster]

Rick, In your opinion and experience, do you feel that the .357 or the .44 would be more accurate as a general rule with cast bullets in a FA.

[cbrick]

Rick, In your opinion and experience, do you feel that the .357 or the .44 would be more accurate as a general rule with cast bullets in a FA.

I've never done a side by side comparison of accuracy between the 357 & 44. Accuracy should/could be pretty close. I know that the guys shooting the 44 can be plenty tough to beat on any given day.

I almost bought the 44 but decided on the 357 and here's why. My 357 is shooting the RCBS 180 Silhouette bullet cast in my alloy at 188 gr and doing 1550 fps. By far the most common 44 bullet is the 240 gr at about 1380 fps, the 357 is shooting much flatter than the 44. A 188 gr bullet at that muzzle velocity does take the rams reliably as long as you stay away from higher antimony alloys.

I worked up a load for a buddy's 10" FA 41 Mag and was amazed at the groups it shot with a 220 gr LeadHeads bullet.

Hope this helps answer your question.

Rick

[44man]

See this is what I tried to get people to understand about the "Can we discuss the 454" thread started by him awhile back I guess people now see that I was more observant than most would admit.
It must be awful to have to carry a burden that is so heavy that it fill one with hate and animosity toward someone or something.
That is the reason I will not respond to anything he posts in a direct way. To sit and stew in ones own vile hatred of a gun or anything else must surely be a miserable existance.
Just why are your stretching things? Did you not see the .454 was being shot FROM A SUPER REDHAWK.
CALIBER, CALIBER, NOT GUN. But Freedom guys are like that, assume first, facts don't matter.

[jwp475]

Are you lookinhg on the mirror when you are posting

[44man]

Rick, In your opinion and experience, do you feel that the .357 or the .44 would be more accurate as a general rule with cast bullets in a FA.
I have to give my opinion. Doesn't matter what caliber. One gun will shoot like crazy, then the next will be the boat anchor. They are no better then any other gun. They charge too much for that distinction.
It is the Freedom owner's attitudes, nothing more.
If I told you my Ruger is junk, you would all agree and pat me on the back.
Mention Freedom and you fill with hate. Will some of you look at yourselves? The thing is not any better then any other gun made. It has problems and so does the company.
If I was a Freedom nut and owned 100 of them, I would still detail all the faults. The problem is that other owners just can't accept it.
Would I shoot IHMSA against Cbrick with my old Ruger and old eyes? You better believe it. l would also make him look silly with my Mark II against his Freedom .22.
Sorry some of you look like fools. I don't hate or love any gun. It is what they do time after time with every gun. Nothing more, nothing less. That includes every make of gun there is so get off the high horse.

[Old Caster]

I have been thinking of getting a .357 in a FA for a while but wondering if I should go .44. I never even thought of a 41 but a friend has a 41 DW that is quite accurate. I have quite a few Smith's and Colts and one Ruger in 357 and 44 but no one shoots pistol silhouette here even though we have silhouette for BPCR. There just aren't many at the club that are interested in shooting pistol except IDPA or Steel and Benchrest of St. Louis is the only place around here with a long enough range. I was just going to get a FA because I like accurate guns and thought it would be fun to play with. -- Bill --

[jwp475]

I have to give my opinion. Doesn't matter what caliber. One gun will shoot like crazy, then the next will be the boat anchor. They are no better then any other gun. They charge too much for that distinction.
It is the Freedom owner's attitudes, nothing more.

This is counter to the expereince and fact that everyone else in the free world knows



If I told you my Ruger is junk, you would all agree and pat me on the back.

Another incorrect statement


Mention Freedom and you fill with hate.Nope, but people are tired of your incorrect post about FA's

Will some of you look at yourselves?

Heed your own advice


The thing is not any better then any other gun made.

I see facts do not stand in your way


It has problems and so does the company.

Are you a buisness expect now?

If I was a Freedom nut and owned 100 of them, I would still detail all the faults. The problem is that other owners just can't accept it.

The problem is that is all you talk about and inaccurately to boot. Rugers, BFRs, S&Ws etc are perfect either but you never go after their imperfections

Would I shoot IHMSA against Cbrick with my old Ruger and old eyes? You better believe it. l would also make him look silly with my Mark II against his Freedom .22.

Sorry some of you look like fools.

The only one looking like a fool is you

I don't hate or love any gun. It is what they do time after time with every gun. Nothing more, nothing less. That includes every make of gun there is so get off the high horse.

Is that why you have blasted the FA 83 for having a short cykinder? The cylinder length on a Super Redhwk, or Redhawk is the same length, yet you say noting about them being too short.

You need to give it a rest





Take a long hard lokk in the mirror, before you get the boot

[jwp475]

I have been thinking of getting a .357 in a FA for a while but wondering if I should go .44. I never even thought of a 41 but a friend has a 41 DW that is quite accurate. I have quite a few Smith's and Colts and one Ruger in 357 and 44 but no one shoots pistol silhouette here even though we have silhouette for BPCR. There just aren't many at the club that are interested in shooting pistol except IDPA or Steel and Benchrest of St. Louis is the only place around here with a long enough range. I was just going to get a FA because I like accurate guns and thought it would be fun to play with. -- Bill --

Great choice, great caliber

[44man]

That's what I was talking about.......
You do not own a Freedom. WHY NOT. I have asked you about that.
Buy some. How do you defend a gun when you have no experience?
OOPS, Taffin says it is great. :bigsmyl2: The Guru that counts the best 3 out of 5 or the best 4 out of 6 at 20 yards.
I can make a few shoot for you but don't expect miracles. I might just refuse and laugh at you. [smilie=l: You could have bought the .357 CHEAP so why didn't you? I think you were afraid of it. Hey, only 4 barrels and 2 cylinders to make a shotgun. I can still get it for you.
DO YOU WANT IT?

[Whitworth]

You do not own a Freedom. WHY NOT. I have asked you about that.
Buy some. How do you defend a gun when you have no experience?
OOPS, Taffin says it is great. :bigsmyl2: The Guru that counts the best 3 out of 5 or the best 4 out of 6 at 20 yards.
I can make a few shoot for you but don't expect miracles. I might just refuse and laugh at you. [smilie=l: You could have bought the .357 CHEAP so why didn't you? I think you were afraid of it. Hey, only 4 barrels and 2 cylinders to make a shotgun. I can still get it for you.
DO YOU WANT IT?

Don't be an idiot. When I can afford one, I will buy one. I have been planning on doing so for some time now. That said, the purchase of an FA is behind a couple of other projects that are taking presendence. Defend when I don't have experience? I have shot quite a few and I like the guns. Not my first choice for a field gun, but would love to own one (or two). All makes have flaws, including your beloved BFRs.

Taffin said so? Where? When? What the hell are you talking about? What .357 do you speak of? I don't want a .357 in any make, so again, what are you talking about. Don't come after me when you're getting piled on. It's not my fault or my doing. You make blanket statements and then get challenged.

[44man]

Again you are missing the point. It is a crusade when you never miss out on an opportunity to take a shot. I am not the only one who notices this stuff. Again, if someone is willing to pay a premium for something that is a little nicer, be it a revolver, a car, clothes, whatever, it is their prerogative to do so. Who am I to judge or deride?
Nicer does not count. We spent big bucks for a wash machine. I hear complaints every day. Bought a new fridge, not enough space with 25 cubic feet. Bitch, bitch, bitch! Don't give that nicer because it cost more junk. I am on the tail end because I made decisions the wife keeps throwing back at me.
I take shots at bad products for the advantage of others.
Ask me what wash machine sucks. It cost twice what a good one would. Now the wife keeps reading adds saying we should have bought a fridge at that other store.
Just how much do you want to add to what she does?
You do not own any Freedom guns, stop jumping on me.
I have a wash machine for sale, do you want it?

[Whitworth]

Nicer does not count. We spent big bucks for a wash machine. I hear complaints every day. Bought a new fridge, not enough space with 25 cubic feet. Bitch, bitch, bitch! Don't give that nicer because it cost more junk. I am on the tail end because I made decisions the wife keeps throwing back at me.
I take shots at bad products for the advantage of others.
Ask me what wash machine sucks. It cost twice what a good one would. Now the wife keeps reading adds saying we should have bought a fridge at that other store.
Just how much do you want to add to what she does?
You do not own any Freedom guns, stop jumping on me.
I have a wash machine for sale, do you want it?

No I don't own any Freedom guns, but I don't have even half of the guns that I want -- yet. But you don't either. I don't have a Mercedes either, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like one. You "take shots at bad products" yet it is merely one man's opinion -- yours. Yes, the Freedom owners seem to be a bit more sensitive to criticism than those who perhaps have paid a bit less for their revolvers, but the flaws they have don't make the guns junk. There are some things I would change about BFRs, but their flaws again don't make them junk. You get piled on every time you start lashing out about FAs -- here, and a number of other sites. Why is that?

[Whitworth]

****** Jim, I'm a doctor not a millionaire! :kidding:

[cbrick]

Yes, the Freedom owners seem to be a bit more sensitive to criticism

I'm not sensitive to legitimate criticism, when legitimate criticism is warranted and just.

There is nothing legitimate about a personal vendetta against a company, its owners and every aspect of every one of its products when to carry out that vendetta it is necessary to go well beyond falsehoods. Nothing legitimate about using every opportunity possible to do everything the imagination can dream up to bash a company and its products. Doing so in a never ending tirade speaks volumes of the character of the person doing so.

Rick

[44man]

No I don't own any Freedom guns, but I don't have even half of the guns that I want -- yet. But you don't either. I don't have a Mercedes either, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like one. You "take shots at bad products" yet it is merely one man's opinion -- yours. Yes, the Freedom owners seem to be a bit more sensitive to criticism than those who perhaps have paid a bit less for their revolvers, but the flaws they have don't make the guns junk. There are some things I would change about BFRs, but their flaws again don't make them junk. You get piled on every time you start lashing out about FAs -- here, and a number of other sites. Why is that?
You have hit on it! [smilie=s: Just WHY does Freedom generate hate?
No other gun ever made has so much hate if something about them is said. What I say is no different then any other.
Many, many, many guns with problems. Some accurate, some junk, some break and it does not matter what company.
It is nothing but a personal thing that should not be allowed.
We all present facts we find for every single product. Nobody's opinion should be in question. You are still the bottom line.
Tell me your Ruger is junk---FINE, you got a bad gun.
I tell you a Freedom is junk and OH, OH, the world has come to an end. When did I say all of them are bad? When did the man with a bad Ruger say ALL were junk? (Some really did.)
A bad Ruger is accepted, not a bad Freedom.
Whit, you are on the way to knowledge. Lacking with some folks.
I have a Burris scope that was beat to scrap on a .44 but I will sell it for use on a .500. I also have a bridge for sale.
Did I pull Freedom into bankruptcy? Get real, I could not pull Maytag or Sears to that point either. They did something wrong and lost customers.

[cbrick]

Do you really think that your last post will now convince us that you’re only speaking of one, of "A" bad FA? Really?

Your comments, your personal vendetta, your tirade for several years have been very consistently against the entire company, the owners, in a few posts even the employees and against every single firearm they make. You have been consistent in this in numerous threads on this forum and on other forums for years. Now we are supposed to believe its just one gun? Is that what your post is supposed to convey?

The only HATE I have ever seen directed towards Freedom Arms is from 44man. So tell me 44man, why is it that you so hate a company, its owners and their firearms that you carry on a years long personal vendetta? To do this you have to have a very strong personal hatred, hatred is the only possible explanation.

Do you believe that everyone disagreeing with you, and almost everyone does, is simply because they "hate" hearing bad things about FA? Do you really believe that?

If anything is approaching hate it’s against the constant, never ending attacks waged by one person with a raging personal vendetta that throws truth and common sense out the window right along with his own integrity. It’s against someone that misses no opportunity to vent his rage and carry on his personal vendetta year after year with little to no truth in it.

I don’t hate you 44man; hate is very much the wrong word. Sad is a much better word, it’s very sad that you are by your own decision using your personal hatred to tear down yourself, truly sad.

Rick

[44man]

Do you really think that your last post will now convince us that you’re only speaking of one, of "A" bad FA? Really?

Your comments, your personal vendetta, your tirade for several years have been very consistently against the entire company, the owners, in a few posts even the employees and against every single firearm they make. You have been consistent in this in numerous threads on this forum and on other forums for years. Now we are supposed to believe its just one gun? Is that what your post is supposed to convey?

The only HATE I have ever seen directed towards Freedom Arms is from 44man. So tell me 44man, why is it that you so hate a company, its owners and their firearms that you carry on a years long personal vendetta? To do this you have to have a very strong personal hatred, hatred is the only possible explanation.

Do you believe that everyone disagreeing with you, and almost everyone does, is simply because they "hate" hearing bad things about FA? Do you really believe that?

If anything is approaching hate it’s against the constant, never ending attacks waged by one person with a raging personal vendetta that throws truth and common sense out the window right along with his own integrity. It’s against someone that misses no opportunity to vent his rage and carry on his personal vendetta year after year with little to no truth in it.

I don’t hate you 44man; hate is very much the wrong word. Sad is a much better word, it’s very sad that you are by your own decision using your personal hatred to tear down yourself, truly sad.

Rick
Hate? NO, vendetta, NO. Can't you think?
I was hoping they would get to work and correct problems. THEY DO HAVE PROBLEMS but profit took over.
I don't HATE anyone, that is a word you should retract.
If I told you that Ruger has throat size problems you would agree.
I tell you Freedom has bore size problems and you go ballistic.
Some of you fellas need to look in a mirror. You ask me to but some of you have your butt to it.
You accuse over and over but never understand that I DO NOT HATE. I want them to fix, improve, correct, stay in business and stop the money suck.
To do the same thing over and over and over expecting better results is the definition of insanity. To believe what you are told from a man with his hand out in your pocket is as bad.

[mroliver77]

Hate? I DO NOT HATE.

A rose by any other name.........

[freedom arms 353]

Hi Folks,
made my first Moose at Ikea last week. Leupold VX III and the great mount from FA helped me great :holysheep

[Whitworth]

Great mount!! :bigsmyl2:

[freedom arms 353]

It`s called Lovell and Gunblast made a review years ago:
http://www.gunblast.com/Freedom97-17.htm
Like the style and it fits the Mod. 83 perfect.
uwe from Germany