Just how pure is necessary in lead.

[Changeling]

For those individuals that are trying to capture the Keith type projectiles/bullets at Keith day velocities witch were 1200fps or lower, and most likely lower ( I really don't know), is there really a difference in a few points of BHN ?
I'm asking because I doubt very seriously that Elmer's mixtures were all that accurate. At that time the lead mines contained a larger percentage of "Silver" than what is considered pure lead today.

Even today lead mines have a percentage of lead threshold that can differentiate them from being a lead or silver mine. Food for thought.

Just chime in and belt out your opinion.

[lwknight]

I think that trace elements have no bearing on the alloy mix. Only when heat treating does small quantities of things like arsenic make a difference.
Thats my guess to hazard.

[leadman]

Don't remember exactly what Elmer was shooting, I'll have to read my old magazines again. I do recall 20 to1, etc.
I know wheelweights were around then, so did he use them??

[HamGunner]

I don't know about Elmer's lead, but when lead it mined in Missouri now days, it is fairly pure. And they float it out. Must be making lead-lite these days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHOp0e4p2DY&NR=1

[dubber123]

I wouldn't count on Elmers loads being that "light" I can't recall the last time I chronoed them, but over 1,300 from a 6" rings a bell. I may load a few and try tomorrow.

[runfiverun]

elmer used 16-1 in his magnum loads.
they were pretty good at cleaning traces out even back then.
lead was at about 10 bucks a ton and silver at 5 an oz, they figured it out pretty quick.
i don't think he used g/c's nor antimonial alloys.

[rob45]

For those individuals that are trying to capture the Keith type projectiles/bullets at Keith day velocities witch were 1200fps or lower, and most likely lower ( I really don't know), is there really a difference in a few points of BHN ?
I'm asking because I doubt very seriously that Elmer's mixtures were all that accurate. At that time the lead mines contained a larger percentage of "Silver" than what is considered pure lead today.

Even today lead mines have a percentage of lead threshold that can differentiate them from being a lead or silver mine. Food for thought.

Just chime in and belt out your opinion.

I cannot really speak for Mr. Keith, but it is well-known that his preferred alloy when developing the 44 magnum was 16:1 lead/tin.

Did he use pure material?
Did he do like most of us and use "scrap" in an attempt to replicate the hardness of 16:1?
Hard to say for sure, but I'll go out on a limb and suggest that he was using the good stuff. I cannot imagine anyone undertaking a project such as development of a cartridge and not having a reliable test standard. If he were using "scrap", it would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, to obtain the needed alloy consistency from one lot to the next.

As to your question concerning the purity of metals from the mining processes themselves, you can rest assured that, yes, even back then, the lead could be made very pure.

In my library, I have a copy of Assayer's Guide by Oscar M. Lieber. This book discusses the various methods of assay for different alloys, particularly those containing gold and silver.
The book discusses both heat and wet (chemical) processes. When using the heat process to assay gold and silver, pure lead is used, and Lieber is very adamant in his stating that if the lead used is not of the utmost purity, then the entire test is for naught (in other words, the assay must be done over).
The original copywright for this book is 1852.

Now think about that time period for a moment.
This country has had the gold mining rushes in California, and also Alaska. The silver mines in Nevada. The Lake Superior copper mines (and now Montana).
Most of these mining towns had an assay office. If someone staked a claim, they had to have an effective means of determining the percentage yield to see if that claim was worthwhile, so they needed an assay office, and the office needed pure lead to perform accurate testing.

Another example is the needs of the US government. During the 1879 Sandy Hook, NJ testing on the 45-70-500 cartridge, the government specified a 20:1 alloy for the testing. They even went so far as to have a contract with a supplier to obtain a precise alloy. Rest assured it was not a mix of Edward's lead window counterweights and Jane's favorite pewter. I personally know a few Civil War "buffs" who have unused bullets from that time period, and it appears the government wasn't messing around whenever they said they needed "the good stuff".

Even the famed German silversmiths of the 16th-18th centuries had a need for pure lead. And when I say pure, I mean 99.97% or better was desirable. That is the type of purity they needed to give the most accurate results from an assay. Undoubtedly that was a time period when the lead of general commerce was not of high purity, so they made it pure if they could not obtain it through purchase.

Runfiverun hit the nail on the head concerning silver content. Galena (lead ore) is mined for several reasons. Back then and even today, and from here on out, we can rest assured that if there is a precious metal in it, they're going to extract every bit of it that they can. That desired metal could be silver, copper, or even zinc. Even if, as you mentioned, the mine was specifically for extracting lead, they're going to get the other stuff out, as it simply goes against the laws of successful business practice not to do so.

What did Elmer use? We may never know. But you can rest assured that if he did not use "pure lead", it most certainly was not due to lack of availability. Specific levels of metal purity have been around since the Bronze Age.

[dubber123]

For those individuals that are trying to capture the Keith type projectiles/bullets at Keith day velocities witch were 1200fps or lower, and most likely lower ( I really don't know), is there really a difference in a few points of BHN ?
I'm asking because I doubt very seriously that Elmer's mixtures were all that accurate. At that time the lead mines contained a larger percentage of "Silver" than what is considered pure lead today.

Even today lead mines have a percentage of lead threshold that can differentiate them from being a lead or silver mine. Food for thought.

Just chime in and belt out your opinion.

I chronographed a load today, Lyman/Ideal 429421 SWC, old stye with the square lube groove. BHN 13. 21 grains of 2400, (Elmers load was 22 grains IIRC)., new Win cases, Fed Std. primers. Velocity from a 4" S&W was 1,319 fps. Elmers load was far from light.

[runfiverun]

your load would be right dang close to his, the newer 2400 is a tad bit faster then his time.
i usually load my 429's over 19+ grs of 2400 and am content with those results.

[eastwa]

lead was at about 10 bucks a ton and silver at 5 an oz

the good 'ol days...