Paper Patch Pig Gun Project

[303Guy]

The subsonic Pig Gun project has begun!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-532F.jpg Mock-up.

The bore turns out to actually have 'square' rifling under the rust! I had to straighten the barrel before cutting it as the bend was right where the cut was to be. After fire-lapping it looks like I got it straight. More fire-lapping is needed but already a patched boolit shoots without cutting into the lead core.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-535F-1.jpg The cartridge and some boolits.

The boolits in the pic are a 230gr hollow nose and a loaded 245gr flat nose from the same mold. That boolit is going to hurt a pig or any other critter real bad!

The scope mounts and suppressor are still to be built.

[phatman]

Now that is a nice Bulldog:p

Very fast handling and reliable as sin. Whats not to like.

Does it shoot pretty good?

Cheers, John

[Doc Highwall]

303Guy, the scope looks high I assume that is because of the bolt on the rifle.

[303Guy]

Does it shoot pretty good?No idea at this point. You can't imagine my eagerness to test this little number on the range! (I'm still busy fire-lapping the bore and don't have any brass stock to make my magic fire-lapping bullets - the bore is real bad!)

Very fast handling and reliable as sin.It does feel good in the hands and in the shoulder. And the old Lee Enfield is indeed so reliable!

303Guy, the scope looks high I assume that is because of the bolt on the rifle.The bolt head requires a little hight but not as much as in the pic (that's a mock-up, remember). I like a high scope to suite my long neck. A high scopr also makes a shorter stock more comfortable and makes the whole gun easier pointing - for me anyway!

This thing fits in a folding camp chair carry back just neatly. That's handy!:D

[303Guy]

Boolit fit in pig gun muzzle. It does not fit at all!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-536F.jpg

The same boolit having been inserted into the breach to the correct chambering depth.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-537F.jpg

It takes a little force to insert the boolit but less force than the case neck exerts on the shank so it chambers and extracts just fine. BUT, it needs waxy lubrication to seat and chamber freely.

I tested one of these with a very small powder charge - not enough to actually penetrate the bundled catch rag - and there was the caught boolit with no unfragmented bits of patch! So I'm pretty hopeful.

I'll do the scope mount first so as to speed up testing on the range! (Me being impatient and all!):mrgreen:

I'm going to have fun with this project!

[475BH]

The subsonic Pig Gun project has begun!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-532F.jpg

Why don't you mount a low (2x or ?) power pistol scope up on the barrel, "Scout Rifle" style.
That would leave the action open for reloading if needed, and there would be no bolt interference w/ the scope problems.

http://www.bobtuley.com/jeffcooper.htm ---Check this out---

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/sbhg/scout.gif

Like this. BTW I do know they hold (I think 10 rounds), I had to use all of them one morning deer hunting out in a birch grove. I shot the first doe and wanted the other two, so I fired away at them as they were retreating. There was much wood flying as I tried to hit them. It should have been easy, since there was snow covering the ground and w/ the white trees they stood out very well, but I guess there just was too many in the way. Fun, Fun.

[Geraldo]

The scope mounts and suppressor are still to be built.

I knew I hated you New Zealanders for a reason...your laws on suppressors. ;) In the US your rifle would cost you an extra $200 for the stamp for the can, and $200 to register it as a short-barreled rifle (it looks like you've cut the barrel shorter than 16").

On a serious note, that's a great looking little rifle. I would second the scout rifle setup if it's possible. A section of Picatinny rail forward of the action would be the ticket if you wanted to swap between scope and red dot.

[303Guy]

Well, New Zealand is not quite perfect. We had a murder this past week-end!:mad: But they'll catch him!

Yup, we do have it good here.

I had a look at bobtuley.com, thanks. I did not know that Jeff Cooper had passed away! Nor did I realise just how big a man he was. (I just took his name for granted - one heard it so often). I also didn't know the scout rifle was his concept. I have seen pistol scopes mounted on rifles, those being Manlicher's. I considered it for my first Lee Enfield - a NoI MkI* which has no scope mounting facility. But I chose a high scope mount on a bridge base I made that was high enough to pass the bolt head and the bolt dust cover.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-539F.jpg

I have never shot with a forward mounted scope.

The last time I priced a long eye relief pistol scope, they were not cheap. The one shown on the scout rifle is a bit longer. It does make sense for rifles that have a balance point over the action but the Lee Enfield has the magazine protruding making that carry not an option. Still, I shall have a look at what my gunshop has (I know they have a very short, lightweight, close eye relief 4x).

[Bullshop Junior]

Cool Looking gun! You can buy bases for them things.

[303Guy]

You can buy bases for them things. I don't think so. I have heard of a side mount arrangement. One can or could get bases for the SMLE and the No.4. I would rather make one. I can make it far stronger than any commercial one - my time is free (which is why it takes me so long to get things like that done![smilie=1: ) If I wanted to I could make a bridge type base quite low by making the rings integral with the base - more like rings that bolt or solder directly onto the action body. (I soldered two such bridge ones on).

[303Guy]

Ready for field testing with open sights and no suppressor.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-544F.jpg

This is early days and I don't want to go to too much trouble until I know it will shoot! So far all I know it shoots a PPCBoo without cutting through the patch i.e. no boolit core to bore contact. Now to see if it will actually group! And whether I can still shoot open sights.:roll:

[Bullshop Junior]

What model is that gun? I know you can get the clamp on style bases for most SMLE's.

[303Guy]

... bases for most SMLE'sWhen you say "SMLE's" I think of the No.I MkIII Lee Enfield. The No.4 is not an 'SMLE'. The No.I MkI is not an 'SMLE' either. Yet this one is as the pic shows.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-547F.jpg

Obviously it had a bolt head mounted clip charger guide but that is now gone.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-549F-1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-552F-1.jpg

The bolt number is a mismatch so it may or may not have been modified (it looks modified). The receiver body is not a modified one. Many MkI's were modified to MkIII by riveting a clip charger guide and making a cut-away. The No.4 had an intergral clip charger guide. I think that both the No.4 and the SMLE took the scope base. (Maybe it was just similar). My No.I MkI* is a 1902 model and this one is a 1904 but just has an 'I' stamped on it, so ..... ????

[Bullshop Junior]

I have only seen two kinds of bases. One for the actions with a sight, and one for a action without a sight.

[303Guy]

That means they are different for the SMLE (no receiver sight) and the No.4. I didn't know.

[Bullshop Junior]

Correct. We have both kinds, but I don't know where you would find one in New Zealand.

[Bullshop Junior]

We have one of these..........sort of.......... Civilian version.




http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=153089551

[303Guy]

Oh wow! A De Lisle carbine! I read somewhere that only a few hundred were made. That one - if it's an original - would be worth quite a bit. (I see it sold for US $720 - less than what I would have expected. Wasn't it wartime vintage?)

I am unable (so far) to find any history on my particular rifle. I'm still looking.

[WILCO]

Oh wow! A De Lisle carbine!

I learned something new today. Thanks guys! [smilie=s:

[Nobade]

My only thought is, I don't think I would want to shoot paper patch bullets through a suppressor. They're bad enough through a muzzle brake.

[barrabruce]

Now if I lived in spoilt fancy pants New Zealand.
I think I'd wanna have one of these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twbCk_Vfsgo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twbCk_Vfsgo&feature=related

Or even A merri car.

:violin:

I don't think PP would be good for it thou!!!!

[303Guy]

Thanks for the YouTube link Barra.

I thought the DeLisle Carbine was basically something you read about. Just this past week I've discovered it not only quite well known but still being manufactured!
The DeLilse Commando Carbine is currently licensed and made by Valkyriearmsdotcom.Not to mention a few home conversions. (I'd do it in 44mag).

Well, my Pig Gun is going to look a little like one, only in 303 subsonic and maybe - depending on how well I can see and aim with open sights - with a scope (peep sights might work for me). I'll decide when the time comes on whether to go long eye-relief or standard rifle scope.

There are comments on YouTube about the range and effective range of the DeLisle - they mention 300m (it should be 250yds) but quite seriously, it's intended for serious bush hunting and rainy weather. And it's to be sub-sonic so 100yds is all I am asking for, the same as a 22LR sub-sonic. The bore is a tad less than mint so even that may be asking too much! (But if it works out, I have another rifle with a better bore on the way:smile:).


I don't think I would want to shoot paper patch bullets through a suppressor. They're bad enough through a muzzle brake.Ah .... well .... I have a suppressor design that handles patch fragments and fillers and wads and it adds only 2 inches to the barrel length.

[Bullshop Junior]

Oh wow! A De Lisle carbine! I read somewhere that only a few hundred were made. That one - if it's an original - would be worth quite a bit. (I see it sold for US $720 - less than what I would have expected. Wasn't it wartime vintage?)

I am unable (so far) to find any history on my particular rifle. I'm still looking.
This one had barrel sights added, so it lost collector value. I would have liked to buy it!

[303Guy]

Uhmmmmm ...... Bullshop Junior, ...... about your avatar...... ?

Right, Lee Enfield models are a tad confusing! Take a look at my 'No.I' model stamps and share my confusion with me!:mrgreen:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/LeeEnfieldModels.jpg

See the S.M.L.E. III* stamp? That's the No.I MkIII. Then there's the 1902 L E I - a No.I MkIII*. But then look at the 'Pig Gun' - that's the 1904 SHTLE I. Now, is that a No.I ? Can't be as it's a MkI and it's not a No.I MkI ! It's a predesessor to the SMLE which is a No.I MkIII ... ????? Many No.I MkI's were modified to MkIII's by adding a clip charger bridge and a loading cut-away. (See my confusion? :veryconfu

(The BSA Co. could be a Lee Metford MkI rebarreled - don't know. It's my future 375/38 Hawkins project).

The number system changed from Roman numerals to numbers at the No.4 (I've got two of those. The two-groove No.4 was supposed to have been my Pig Gun carbine but when it shot straight, I didn't have the heart to chop it up. It won;t work well with cast or paper patched as it turns out).

P.S. I have another rifle - a No.I MkI - coming soon! :bigsmyl2:

[303Guy]

My Lee Enfield collection (minus the one that's still coming).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-563F-1.jpg

The 'new one' is supposed to have two butt-stocks.

[Bullshop Junior]

My Lee Enfield collection (minus the one that's still coming).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-563F-1.jpg

The 'new one' is supposed to have two butt-stocks.
Very Nice!

[Bullshop Junior]

Uhmmmmm ...... Bullshop Junior, ...... about your avatar...... ?



What about it?

[303Guy]

What about it? Would that be the North American Goliath Squirrel?:mrgreen: It looks a little larger than usual!

[Bullshop Junior]

Would that be the North American Goliath Squirrel?:mrgreen: It looks a little larger than usual!
That or the guys that shot it are a little on the small side. Like super little skinny hobbits with camo, or maybe they are GI Joe guys............

Use your Imagination!

[Blackhawk Convertable]

Technically, if it's a Sub-sonic gun, it gets a silencer.

Faster than sound gets the suppressor.

But we all know what you're getting at...

[Willbird]

Technically, if it's a Sub-sonic gun, it gets a silencer.

Faster than sound gets the suppressor.

But we all know what you're getting at...

But when you go to file federal paperwork, they are ALL "silencers" :-)

[303Guy]

Technically, if it's a Sub-sonic gun, it gets a silencer.I was thinking about that. But mine isn't going to be completely silent due to the baffle design for paper patches and its very short 'overhang'. My criteria is that it is quiet enough for my sensitive ears without loose fit earplugs. (My current supersonic rifles require loose fit earplugs - those do not work for un-suppressed guns). Of course, If I could achieve total silence I would be stoked! (And on my way to making a bit of money with a radical new suppressor design! ;) Actually, I've invented a small muzzle break that cuts muzzle blast as well as a bad suppressor - and it's as small as a muzzle break).

Isn't there some loop-hole in your 'silencer' laws that could be used ...... :roll:

[Bullshop Junior]

You can have a "Can" (silencer/suppressor) on your gun, if it not permanently attached I THINK! Don't hold me to that. a friend of mine told me that.

[303Guy]

Here is a pic of my original suppressor/muzzle break. It's a prototype. [smilie=1:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-300F_edited.jpg

Here one can see how small it is.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-303F_edited.jpg

I believe that in some states, it is legal (without registration/licence fees) if the device is permanently attached and does not reducw muzzle blast bt more than 4db. (Remember that 3db represents a doubling of sound pressure, so 4db is actually a lot and can take the muzzle blast from hearing damaging to 'safe'. And if it is permanently attached, how does law enforcement prove otherwise? Plus, if it is small, who's going to querie it anyway? [smilie=1: )

These muzzle devices have an additional benefit - they protect the muzzle from mud, rain and all kinds of debris ingress - even the small ones.

[lwknight]

Those must be real soldiers in Bullshop Jr's avatar. The squirrel is from a Texas variety.

[303Guy]

The squirrel is from a Texas variety.That figures. Everything is big in Texas, isn't it!:mrgreen:

That avatar caught the corner of my eye and when I looked at it I thought, "What:!:" I had to look again! And then for a third time!:veryconfu

I think it's great!:drinks:

[Willbird]

You can have a "Can" (silencer/suppressor) on your gun, if it not permanently attached I THINK! Don't hold me to that. a friend of mine told me that.

Whether or not is is perm attached has no bearing on legality at the federal level. They are legal at the federal level if you pay a $200 per transfer tax, state law varies.

[303Guy]

I've finally found out a little about Lee Enfield models. The 'BSA Co' is a civilian target rifle - that explains the barrel profile and the wear to the chamber end of the bore. I have another LE MkI with a target barrel. The Pig Gun was a developmental gun issued for 'troop trials'. It's a ShtLE MkI (as opposed to the LE MkI). There was also an S.M.L.E. MkI which is a modified LE MkI. I'll stop before my head explodes!:veryconfu

The bad news is the Pig Gun has pitting in the neck area of the chamber, making case extraction difficult and marring the case necks.:sad:

On the up-side, I have a plan to create a new chamber for it that will better suite the throat and will allow for a longer boolit of up to 265gr.

[303Guy]

My latest (and last) Lee Enfield has arrived. It has a very good bore for a change.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-589F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/untitled-4.jpg

It is fitted with an SMLE barrel which is thinner than the original LE barrel. I will 'lose' the sights - they're good but are almost as heavy as the barrel itself!:|

My Lee Enfiels collection is now complete. Now I can continue with my pig gun (the 'new' gun might end up being it. In which case the barrel off-cut and the current pig gun will become my DeLisle Carbine).

[phatman]

Thats not a supressor its a harmonics compensator.
Damn silly cops!

Cheers,
John:coffee:

[303Guy]

... its a harmonics compensator.I knew that! :bigsmyl2: On that skinny barrel it works well too. Mmmm ..... 'Harmonics Compensator'. That would sell!

Are flash hiders legal in your parts? (It does that too).

[Doughty]

303guy

Just to give you a heads up............There's no such thing as a "complete collection" of anything. You'll find pretty soon that you either need one more or one less. And then it starts all over again.

[Zeek]

. . . Are flash hiders legal in your parts?
Dear 303Guy:
If you would have kept the longer barrel on that thing and developed subsonic heavy-PPCBoo loads, you would have found yourself with a very willing rifle and no need for a hider ~~~> i.e., for, indeed, the spirit is willing, but the flash is weak.
Zeek

[Zeek]

Uhmmmmm . . . .avatar...... ?
Well, thank you very much, 303Guy. However, with all due respect to special Russian Imperial Stouts, if you don't mind, I'd much rather av-a-IPA.
Zeek

[303Guy]

If you would have kept the longer barrel on that thing ... Aaah ... true, but - that thing's barrel looked like the inside of an old waterpipe!:mrgreen: And it was bent. I managed to get even more rust out yesterday and the rifling itself looks like it could launch a boolit accurately! But there is a rust pit in the neck area that makes case extraction difficult.

However, my 'new' rifle has an exellent bore and is full lenth! Anyway, I've got so many of these things that one of them simply has to be a DeLisle type carbine. (But I don't want to chop up a good one! Still, I bought it specifically for that purpose. So we'll see what I decide to do).

The is the thing about having enough pressure to upset the boolit to fully obturate the bore just at the throat. To do that and still be sub-sonic, one needs a short barrel.

But now that you mention it, I shall have a look at the long barreled gun with the view to going quiet and subsonic at lower pressure. Thanks for the idea.:drinks:

[303Guy]

Zeek, you got me thinking. (And it hurts! :mrgreen: ) I didn't really want to chop up good barreled gun and now I don't have to! I found a use for it full length. Well, I think I have. I am busy loading up a 245gr boolit (with sized core) and a light charge of powder. The idea must surely work. And if'n I make it into a kinda bull-pup with a scope forward of the action .... I would still have my carbine!:bigsmyl2:

[Zeek]

Zeek, you got me thinking. (And it hurts! :mrgreen: ) I didn't really want to chop up good barreled gun and now I don't have to! I found a use for it full length. Well, I think I have. I am busy loading up a 245gr boolit (with sized core) and a light charge of powder. The idea must surely work. And if'n I make it into a kinda bull-pup with a scope forward of the action .... I would still have my carbine!:bigsmyl2:
Hmmm, yes. Try adding around twice the thickness of paper you need to patch the core up to groove diameter, then size it to just over groove diameter. Under that approach, the gas trapped in the PPatch will have been expelled and the PPCBoo will not NEED to be expanded like mad just to fit the barrel. At that point, VERY CAREFULLY!!!! try using no more than 7.0 grains of Vihtavuori N310 (the fastest canister powder available, by a WIDE margin!). With that charge, you should get a 20 Kpsi load with just over 70 Bars of muzzle pressure (with full barrel length on 303Br), and 1050 fps. Be really careful with that powder, amigo! With far smaller cases, you might get down to below ~35 Bars of muzzle pressure, which is nearly "silent," but the large 303Br case makes ~70 Bars the lowest you can get at that MV. Going down to 3.5 grains would give 37 Bars muzzle pressure, but the MV would drop to around 730 fps.
Like the man said, "You get what you play for!", or as they say at NASA, "There's no such thing as a free launch!"
Regards, Zeek

[303Guy]

Thanks Zeek.

At that kind of pressure, I could construct a rather large but short barrel overhang silencer from lightweight aluminium. I only have to not hurt my ears (nor anyone elses) and I have exceptionally sensitive ears.

What sort of pressures do 22 RF's have at the muzzle? Subsonic and supersonic? (If you happen to know - and I suspect you know a great deal! :roll: )

Oh, I should mention, the reason for having a bore sized nose section boolit after paper patching is the seating depth - the boolit protrudes more than half its length into the bore. I could try seating the boolit right back into the case with the nose ogive just engaging the leade. Mmmm ..... I never thought of that before! Of course, I would have to change my case sizing practices to remove the 'dough-nut'. Easily do-able.

Funny how we get comfortable in thinking in a certain way until someone provokes us into having a rethink! I love this forum!:drinks:


Like the man said, "You get what you play for!", or as they say at NASA, "There's no such thing as a free launch!"I like it!:mrgreen:

[Zeek]

Thanks Zeek.

. . . . What sort of pressures do 22 RF's have at the muzzle? Subsonic and supersonic?
I don't know that, but here is something related: I have heard that any barrel over 16" in length will cause a DECREASE in MV (compared to a 16" barrel). That is a pretty low muzzle pressure, then.



. . . . Of course, I would have to change my case sizing practices to remove the 'dough-nut'.
My slug-gestion is that you dough-nut dooooo that. It won't make much difference. If you want real quiet with plenty of power, try a 26" barrel 44 Magnum with a 300 grain GCCBoo. You can get up to just under the speed of sound, giving LOTS of power with such a CBoo, yet have just about NAAAAH-thing for muzzle pressure. Think expansion ratio, then maximize it with larger caliber, longer barrel, and smaller case capacity and THERE you HAVE it: heavy power (deer capable) yet no real muzzle blast ~~~> "We don NEEEED no stinkin' silencer!"
Regards, Zeek

[303Guy]

Maybe one day I will go 44 mag but, mine's gonna be a slight variation using 303 Brit cases - what the heck, it's about having fun and I just so happen to have chosen the 303 Brit and the Lee Enfield to play with!:mrgreen:

But, at this point my challenge to myself is to get my rusty barreled 'Pig Gun' to shoot! I am curious to see what a torpedo shaped PPCBoo can do. I have another project going in conjunction with a fellow Kiwi and this 'Pig Gun' is a prelude to that project. The basics of this other project are his so I shan't be mentioning the details. The pig gun was my original intention and it let to other new ideas. So, to keep velocity down and chamber pressure up, I have opted to try heavy boolits and shotgun powder. Now to get to a range! Every week-end something comes up that stops me and I getting kinda eager. :Fire:

[Emptye]

Re: Long eye relief scopes ... there are cheaper alternatives to Leupold, I've got one of these http://www.opticsplanet.net/ncstar-pistol-long-eye-relief-scope-2x20-pistol-scope-blue-ring-spb220b.html scout mounted on my Marlin Guide Gun. Not sure about availability in NZ but it might be worth the look.

Nice rifle, I'm sure the pigs are going to hate it :-)

Mark in Bama

[303Guy]

Thanks for the link, Emptye. :drinks:

I'll check our local scope supplyers - gunshops and internet sales. I can also get a quick-point, second hand - new one's are a bit pricey for the application.

Are you paper patching for your marlin? Have you got pics you could post? I'd be interested to see it.

[Bullshop Junior]

You guys lost me.

Are you still gonna do the short barreled 303?

[Emptye]

I picked it up as a cheaper alternative because a I had some concerns about the Scout set-up because of an hand/eye dominance switch (very right handed but mildly left eye dominant). I figured if it didn't work I wouldn't have dumped a load of cash on a scope that I couldn't use. Turned out that I didn't have any issues and have been quite happy with the scope.

Not paper patching yet, it's a matter of priorities ... a new stock on my wife's Swede is at the top of the list ... maybe next year if I'm lucky.

Have been holding off on pictures until the Marlin is really in the shape I want it in ... still need back-up iron sights and a new recoil pad (the one from factory is less a pad and more a rock), but I'll see if what I can so about taking a few.

Mark

[303Guy]

I would love to get my wife out there with me her own rifle. For now that's just a dream.


Are you still gonna do the short barreled 303?Oh yes, it's still happening but I like to jump from one project to the other!:lol: I've been a little distracted lately and my other Brit was easier to play with.;-)
The shorty has a chamber pitting problem which makes for difficult case extraction so I intend replacing the entire chamber potion of the barrel and using a smaller capacity case at the same time. This will take a while but I will still do some tests with it as is. I also intend using it to develope an effective but very small suppressor.

[barrabruce]

Hey Zeek got a pic of this long 44 mag???
Whats the twist rate and the accuracy and knock down power to say 200-300 yrds???

How do you manage such a long gun???
Do you pick a straight path and poke it throu the trees :) hand over hand and stick it in thiers ears or something???

Curious as we aint allowed not sticking muffler on our guns over here anyways!!![smilie=b:
a 48 " .22lr sposed to work too...aparently

Anything in 30 cal work the same??? 40-45 might be a bit rough on the pidgeons for tea
Barra

[Zeek]

Hey Zeek got a pic of this long 44 mag???
Whats the twist rate and the accuracy and knock down power to say 200-300 yrds??? A subsonic round would be for close-in work only, on game. However, it sure oculd be fun for plinking at longer distances. I do not have such a rifle, but a twist rate in 44 of 1:20 should work very reliably. My big bullet 44 shooting has been with my DW 445SM sixgun . . . using a caseful of AA-1680 under a 410gr LBT LFN, for an MV of ~1050 flips. It starts at the speed of sound but only looses only ~100 flips per 100 yards (= the subsonic-only vel-loss rate for most heavy-for the caliber blunt-nosed CBoos), so still has plenty of plinking WHUMP (so you can SEE where you hit) out to around 600 yards or more (the dustier the area, the further out you can see the impact location). Long range sixgun plinking is lots of fun! Use a Keith ladder-bar-backed front sight for consistent hold-over. At any irate, the revolver's barrel has a twist rate (by memory) of ~1:20 and works great for a very-heavy-for-that-caliber CBoo, so I believe that same twist rate would work in a rifle, especially with them lightweight 330 grainers.


How do you manage such a long gun???
Do you pick a straight path and poke it throu the trees :) hand over hand and stick it in thiers ears or something??? A Ruger #1, for example, with a 26" barrel is not any longer than a bolt action with a 22" barrel. If that is too long for you, for a special-purpose rifle, then you'll find your gollies elsewhere. The most obvious pick for an awful-the-shelf option would be an H&R Handi Rifle in 44 Mag, but that has a 1:39 twist which will stabilize bullets no heavier than 300 grains, and THAT only at full powder ~~~> with a subsonic load, you'd probably have to stick with 250 grain CBoos, but it would still be very quiet.


Curious as we aint allowed not sticking muffler on our guns over here anyways!!![smilie=b:
a 48 " .22lr sposed to work too...aparently Yes, it probably would, but at a rather low MV. So what? Yes, it WOULD be quiet, but why not opt for a handier rifle of larger caliber that is no louder?


Anything in 30 cal work the same??? 40-45 might be a bit rough on the pidgeons for tea. I've never invited any pidgeons for tea, but I'll take your word for it. Regardless of caliber (within reason, now, so control yerseff, there, Barra!) a subsonic CBoo with a meplat of half the caliber's cross sectional area will work well dispite the lower impact velocity. A friend of mine was testing out 22LR ammo he had modified (to give it such a meplat) using the 22 SGB Tool that Alan Taylor and I developed (I sold these for ~10 years). He and another friend were up in Wyoming and nailing prairie dogs using revolvers. One large pdawg was at what later pesoed out to be (as I recall) 250 yards. It took a number of shots, but Bud finally connected with it. Despite the bullet's having an MV of only ~1100 fps, from his revolver, and the bullet's having traveled that far (impact vel ~800 fps?) they could clearly hear the WHUMP, even at that distance, and the pdawg fell over right there. So, you see, CBoos with that size meplat DO work nicely, even at rather low impact velocities. I'm not pullin' this out of my ear.

For a gunsmith with the need for a really quiet-yet-WHUMPful rifle, a suitable action fitted with a 22" barrel 30 caliber (not 32) barrel with a 1:10 twist in 32 acp chambeirng (Note: max ch. press. is 24 Kpsi), and throated to give a 0.310" diameter throat cylinder 0.4" long (then the leade cone from there forward into the bore diameter) would allow chambering of a case with a gaschecked L311041 seated 0.15" deep (the GC is needed, given the small seating depth). For that combo, here is what you could get:
4.0gr Blue Dot = 970 fps & Muz. Press. of 41 Bars at ~ 19 Kpsi max ch. pressure
1.6gr V's N310 = 712 fps & " " of 14 Bars at ~ 20 Kpsi " " "
2.5gr Unique = 880 fps & " " of 25 Bars at ~ 20 Kpsi " " "

So, you can pick your poison, but that CBoo, with its large meplat, WILL prove effective, and the load very quiet, in such a special application rifle, and the CBoo WILL stabilize at that MV-and-twist (try it yourself with small charges of shotgun powder in your 30-30, but the muzzle pressure will be MUCH higher, so too noisy for this use). Of course, if that is not your area of interest, then that's fine too, but it CAN be done, and would prove VERY handy in an area overun, for example, with feral dogs and/or cats, so long as one practiced careful fire control ~~~> People just HATE it when they find bullets a-stickin-out of their house's exterior, even if all they heard was the WHUMP!, and the bullet (or hole) points right back to the location from which it was fired, which would not leave much to imagination in a sparcely-populated area.
Zeek

[303Guy]

32 ACP rifle! Mmmm ..... Long ago I imagined such a chambering!

I'm guessing at the reason for the 30 bore for the 32 but would rather hear your splanation. I suspect it's along the lines of my wanting to chamber a 303 Brit for 8mm-303. In my case it would be to get a bore diameter core patched boolit into the chamber. At the moment, the bore-ride is bore size after patching and that seems to need a very soft nose to properly cut the patch.

Another thought that crossed my mind is to cut back the Lee Enfield chamber to the point were a 30-30 case head fits, then form cases from 30-30 brass to suite such a wildcat chamber. The magazine would accomodate real long boolits!

[Bullshop Junior]

I would love to get my wife out there with me her own rifle. For now that's just a dream.

Oh yes, it's still happening but I like to jump from one project to the other!:lol: I've been a little distracted lately and my other Brit was easier to play with.;-)
The shorty has a chamber pitting problem which makes for difficult case extraction so I intend replacing the entire chamber potion of the barrel and using a smaller capacity case at the same time. This will take a while but I will still do some tests with it as is. I also intend using it to develope an effective but very small suppressor.
Make a 45 ACP.

[Bullshop Junior]

32 ACP rifle! Mmmm ..... Long ago I imagined such a chambering!

I'm guessing at the reason for the 30 bore for the 32 but would rather hear your splanation. I suspect it's along the lines of my wanting to chamber a 303 Brit for 8mm-303. In my case it would be to get a bore diameter core patched boolit into the chamber. At the moment, the bore-ride is bore size after patching and that seems to need a very soft nose to properly cut the patch.

Another thought that crossed my mind is to cut back the Lee Enfield chamber to the point were a 30-30 case head fits, then form cases from 30-30 brass to suite such a wildcat chamber. The magazine would accomodate real long boolits!
Last I heard DK17HMR was making a 25 ACP rifle. I don't know if he is still doing it.

[phatman]

Ok, now you guys have me thinking.:veryconfu

Take a single shot rifle like the Handi, Drill and tap a hole in the bottom of the barrel at about the 4 inch from chamber point where max pressure happens.
Mount a second barrel of about 12 ga size (closed at both ends) to the rifle barrel and connect the two via a tube and valve.

The pressure impulse would be modulated by the expansion chamber but would still apply force to the bullet at a slower pressure but for a longer duration. Allowing factory ammo to be subsonic with low muzzle blast or supersonic normal with the turning of a valve.

Just a thought,

John:coffeecom

[Bullshop Junior]

Why a handi rifle?

[303Guy]

Make a 45 ACP. Or a 45 Long Colt! Brass is available and it has a rim plus is long enough to eject properly - on second thoughts, the best for a little lady not used to guns is a single shot. In which case the magazine can be used as a spent brass recepticle! Mmmmm .... that would work! :roll: A Lee Enfield can lose quite a bit of weight by cutting off the butt socket and making it a one-piece stock carbine. 357 Magnum would be an excellent choise too. (Or 357 Maximum if brass available).

[phatman]

A Handi is very cheap and if you screw up your only out a couple hundred

[303Guy]

A Handi is very cheap and if you screw up ... Not here. Rossi's are a bit cheaper but don't come in the calibers I want - only in 410 shotgun and 22LR. Pity!

[Zeek]

32 ACP rifle! Mmmm ..... Long ago I imagined such a chambering!

I'm guessing at the reason for the 30 bore for the 32 but would rather hear your splanation. . . .
Reason: There is no use being limited to light weight CBoo designs mainly intended for pistols. No. You want some WEIGHT plus a nice meplat, like the 180 grain L311041. Well, for that, you'll need a 30 caliber barrel and a twist a bit faster than normal (so that the RPM is up there despite the low MV).

Somebody else suggested a 45 ACP rifle. That, too, would be a neat choice. You could also do a 44 Special rifle and shoot heavier CBoos as deeply seated as feasible (to maximize the expansion ratio and, therefore, the potential for a low muzzle pressure).
Have fun,
Zeek

[303Guy]

Take a single shot rifle like the Handi, Drill and tap a hole in the bottom of the barrel at about the 4 inch from chamber point where max pressure happens.
Mount a second barrel of about 12 ga size (closed at both ends) to the rifle barrel and connect the two via a tube and valve.Hey, I missed this post! Just a simple set of symmetrical holes leading into an expansion chamber set around the barrel should do it just nicely! Small, case, substancial powder charge, good initial ignition pressure, expansion to keep peak pressure down and we're off! There could be a problem with lead and patched boolits, though and that is the expansion ports would be at where boolit upset is at its maximum. Move those expansion ports to right in front of the case mouth and it might just work! Furthermore, the expansion chamber can be adjusted in volume to optimize the case size/powder charge ratio. (It will need to be removeable for cleaning anyway).

[Bullshop Junior]

Or a 45 Long Colt! Brass is available and it has a rim plus is long enough to eject properly - on second thoughts, the best for a little lady not used to guns is a single shot. In which case the magazine can be used as a spent brass recepticle! Mmmmm .... that would work! :roll: A Lee Enfield can lose quite a bit of weight by cutting off the butt socket and making it a one-piece stock carbine. 357 Magnum would be an excellent choise too. (Or 357 Maximum if brass available).
We have the 45 ACP carbine that uses the 1911 clips, and it feeds, and ejects fine.

[Bullshop Junior]

A Handi is very cheap and if you screw up your only out a couple hundred
Stevens 200 would be better.

[303Guy]

Right! Getting back to topic! :bigsmyl2: (Not that I have any objections to drifting off - that adds info and interest - lots of info, actually! :mrgreen:)

I've been testing paper patch loads in my 303 carbine and that has been quite revealing. So now to apply what I have learned to the Pig Gun with its much shorter barrel. My first problem is the fore-sight mounted right on the muzzle - I cannot stick the muzzle into my firing tube rubber hole so it's too noisy! The suppressor will have to be done soon.

What would be helpful is some idea of the correct muzzle pressure for a soft alloy to avoid muzzle deformation. The carbine required slower powder and more of it to fragment the patch at the muzzle. That seems to give the nose section enough time to upset sufficiently to cut the patch up front.

[barrabruce]

Well I reckon it would look real impressive at night with heaps of powder burning about 3-4ft from the end of the barrell. :)

[303Guy]

... it would look real impressive at night with heaps of powder burning ...Not the Pig Gun. That'll be loaded with AS30 shotgun powder so it'll be like firing a long barreled pistol at night. Actually, once the suppressor is fitted there won't be any muzzle flash at all.
Did I mention the suppressor? :bigsmyl2: Hee hee hee! :kidding:

[303Guy]

... it would look real impressive at night with heaps of powder burning ...Well, OK, maybe. I've just found that AR2205/H4227 works better at crushing the paper patch and at not jamming the case in the chamber neck pitting and that powder is gonna make a bit of a muzzle flash but nowhere near a normal rifle load (I haven't even thought of starting the suppressor yet).

[phatman]

Well?

So how is the Pig Gun working out?
Have you had a chance to bloody it yet?


BTW: I handled an Enfield in 348 Win today.
Full custom rifle with quarter rib sights, old english style stock. Lovely rifle
It feeds the 348 Win rounds slicker than snot. The rifle uses the regular military mags and it holds 6 rounds with no issues.

John

[303Guy]

I'm taking the pig gun and the carbine out tomorrow![smilie=w:

I have no idea where I am being taken but I must 'take my long range rifle'.:veryconfu Well, I'll take the butt screw driver with in case I have to carry them in my back pack.

348 Winchester? That would work a treat! Larger case at lower pressure.

From Hornady;

250 GR. BAR FN, Hodgdon H4350, Cal .348", OAL 2.760"
Min 55.0gr 2157fps 31,000 CUP
Max 59.5gr 2328fps 35,700 CUP

[303Guy]

Well, sort of - if shooting a koi carp counts!:roll:

I did not purpose develope loads for it so I was surprized that it shot as well as it did but not good enough for hunting. However, the carbine for which I had test tube developed the loads shot really well - 1½ MOA at 110yds (with horrid open sights!) Bloodied that gun with three turkeys.:Fire:

The Pig Gun has a grey deposit in its muzzle area. The patches were failing in the bore. But I have some boolits and powder just for it - 245 grainers. It is a wonderful little gun to carry around.:D

[michael30.06]

Was the koi carp in or out of a barrel?
Only kiddin.
I hope you find the answer to that pig gun cutting up the paper patches inside the bore, I would love to see the results of 245gn at 900+ fps on a feral pig.
I'm still working on the reduced capacity brass for my 06. So far consistency is the problem but I will get there eventually. [smilie=s:

[303Guy]

Was the koi carp in or out of a barrel?Pretty much, actually.:mrgreen: A walk along the river bank, a pink form under the water surface - exit one koi carp!

I'll get the patch problem sorted OK. It's the accuracy I'm worried about. I've had patches coming out almost whole from this gun too but at lower pressure levels.

[phatman]

I was just thinking,
Maybe the pressure is to low, the bullet is not bumping up at all and the rifling cant cut the paper.
Try some blackpowder or something like it.
Suppressed blackpowder now there's a concept!!!:-)

I must need meds or something.


John

[Nrut]

I was just thinking,
Maybe the pressure is to low, the bullet is not bumping up at all and the rifling cant cut the paper.
Try some blackpowder or something like it.
Suppressed blackpowder now there's a concept!!!:-)

I must need meds or something.
John
John,
You only need meds if you want to be normal...[smilie=1:

[303Guy]

This load had plenty pressure and anyway, the boolits don't need to bump up - they're pretty big to start with. The Pig Gun has a rough and pitted bore so too much too much pressure just disintegtrates the patch. The bore is now coated with lead from breach to muzzle. It'll be fun cleaning it out! Scotch Brite and steel wool work great.:mrgreen:

[303Guy]

Well now, here's a curious thing - I stuck the sights onto the Pig Gun using some epoxy or the other and today I tried to take the foresight off so I can test tube develope a load for it and would you believe a hammer and drift won't knock it off! Maybe I can 'glue' the scope base on with the same stuff.:roll:

[303Guy]

I've been developing a load for the Pig Gun. 14gr AR2205/H4227 under a 230gr hollow nose paper patched 'torpedo'. Here is how it performed in soaked wool furniture padding (which seems to simulate flesh quite well).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-648F.jpg Retained weight - 229gr.

Not too shabby!

[zuke]

Have you tried to use paper patched to clean out the leaded bore?
I had that problem in my 1895 Marlin 45-70 and a some PP cleaned it right up.

[303Guy]

Have you tried to use paper patched to clean out the leaded bore?No I haven't. I was getting leading in this gun with paper patched boolits so took that to mean the patch was failing in the bore. I suppose I could have fired a few known working loads through it. I used Scotch Brite abbrasive scourer pad. Even then, it took quite a few strokes with a clean pad to get it all out. This bore is seriously pitted and rough. It's amazing that a patch can get through whole but they do:!:

When I get some more brass I'll make a few 'fire-lapping' bullets and give a good 'clean'.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-565F-1.jpg

The first four bands are there to fit the throat and guide the bullet. The last two bands do the work - they're over-groove diameter.

[michael30.06]

when you say brass are you turning that fire lapping bullet out off solid brass? :p

[303Guy]

Yes, it's turned from brass rod. I size it from throat measurements although the base bands are as large as the chamber will allow. Those are seated in the neck and hold the abrasive (no abrasive can get between the case and chamber wall. the case is as fired in that same chamber. The idea of the second and third band is to engage the rifling to start the bullet spin before the abrasive hits the leade so as not to wear the driving edge more than necessary.

[michael30.06]

Impressive!
Must find access to a lathe and some lessons somewhere. :bigsmyl2:

[barrabruce]

Hey what sort of glue did you use for the front sight 303-guy?????
I was testing some loads today at the range.

Swapped over from real mild cast to PP and me "you beut turret adjustable cap" I knocked up and soldered on flew back over me shoulder with the recoil.
Well it held up for 6 mths so at least it was a start.

Barra

[303Guy]

It's some stuff called "Fast Fix" and it comes in a roll which you slice off and mix. It's dark grey and sets hard. I got that sight off by heating it. My very first Lee Endield has it's scope mount soldered on and that's lasted some thirty years but I did give is a large surface area. I've done two such scope mounts. My 22 has its scope mounts glued on with "Pratley Epoxy". That's lasted some thirty years. I also had an air rifle with a glued on scope mount. The trick is to give it a large curved glue or solder surface.

[barrabruce]

Ahhh got it!!!!... metal putty stuff then.

I stuck it together with 24 hr adrilldite but I doubt it will last long as my experiance with it has only ever been mediocre.

I'll track some metal exopy 2 part squishy stuff down next time a got to town.

Thanks 303-guy

Cheers

Bruce

[303Guy]

Not metal putty. Fast Fix has fibre in it but not metal. It can be machined though. The great thing is that it's dark grey and doesn't show on a gun.

[303Guy]

Can anyone advise me on slow powders in a short barrel with a heavy boolit?

The pig gun has a 322mm (12.7 inch) bore. The load I have found that disintegrates the patch without leading is 14gr AR2205/H4227 under a 230gr boolit. The cases I am using have a 41gr capacity of that powder. That's 34% load density. A disaster waiting to happen!

I am fitting a suppressor to the gun so muzzle blast isn't an issue. I have fired AR2209/H4350 starting loads under a 180gr boolit and it seemed OK. What I am thinking of is a minimum charge of AR2209 under the 230grainer or even a 245gr FN since the velocity should be high enough for expansion (I think).

[zuke]

Have you tried Trail Boss powder?
I opened up my first can about a month and have been pleasntly surprised with it.

[303Guy]

I haven't tried Trail Boss. Not sure it's available in my parts.

I did try a light load of AR2209/H4350 and it burned clean. Muzzle blast was greater as expected and pressure was moderate. I would like to go lower but I'm just not brave enough - I'm already at 69% load density. That's with a 230gr boolit.

[longbow]

Not sure what you are trying to do with a light load of slow powder in a short barrel.

I would expect a fast to medium burn powder would give you what you want for velocity.

I am generally using IMR4227 and IMR4198 under boolits of up to 250 grs. in my .303. Also, I am generally using COW filler.

I know the filler issue opens a can of worms for many people but I see several advantages and have as yet to experience a problem with carefully worked up loads. If you want a reduced charge of slow powder I am afraid I cannot see a disadvantage to using the filler on top to maintain 100% loading density ~ assuming you start with a known low pressure load then add filler and work up in powder and down in filler until you get where you want or see pressure signs.

For instance, I am currently loading 19 grs. of IMR4227 under a 200 gr. boolit and topping up the case with COW which weighs 27 grs. so just over 10% increase in projectile weight. This load shoots quite well and very clean. I see no signs of high pressure but also have not pushed the load.

I don't think 10% increase in weight is enough to worry about and but the reduced volume with definitely increase pressures.

IMR4227 should not need a filler but I am using the 316299 with no gas check and getting the same performance from it over filler as with no filler and a gas check. If loaded with no filler and no gas check, accuracy is poor and I get gas cutting.

I have also used filler with IMR4064 and IMR4320 but have not done much work there. Again, while accuracy was not great with the loads I tried, they were reduced loads with filler, they shot clean and no leading with no gas check.

I would be reluctant to use significantly reduced loads of 4350 without filler

In any case, if you use paper patched boolits and medium burn rate powder you should be able to get the velocities you want with or without filler.

In case you haven't seen them, here are a couple of articles on granular fillers:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp

Also, our own Larry Gibson is doing some test work with filler loads in the 6.5 Swede posted in the special projects section. Also a good read and very educational.

Not sure if that helps or is confusing but... that's all I got.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Thanks, Longbow. Haven't heard from you for a while.

My reasoning is to move away from powders that can be overloaded catestrophically. I don't want too much pressure because the patch fails. I also don't want too much muzzle blast/pressure. The load that seems to meet my requirements is 69% load density. If it's possible to reduce the load and use a filler (other than Dacron) then that might be the way to go. How would tightly packed Dacron work?

[longbow]

You are asking the wrong guy.

I have never used a "fluffy" filler so have no personal experience with them.

I first tried granular filler after corresponding with David Southall who wrote the article on "Cast Bullets in the .303. As per the article, he claimed improved performance, less leading, better accuracy, etc. and commented that he found COW better than cornmeal. So I tried both and have to say I too have gotten better results with COW.

I had seen reports of horror stories about people using fillers so wondered if things might go bad then found the article on Surplusrifles.com which made me feel better again.

I also found the information on Puff-Lon which while lower density than COW as far as I can tell, it is not low density fluff. Since this is sold commercially I can't imagine that there is a high likelihood of damage to gun or shooter if used correctly.

Anyway, all this made me feel better so I carried on with COW working up loads.

The benefits I see are:

- 100% loading density so no chance of double charging
- 100% loading density so ignition and powder burn should be good and consistent ~ this should work with light charges of fast to medium powders and also lower lopading density charges of slow powder because the excess volume is eliminated
- seems to replace gas check
- seems to eliminate leading
- cheap
- easy
- readily available (I have to order in gas checks or travel far to get them)

All good stuff in my view and I have as yet to experience a problem. I guess my view is that the chamber pressures even with light loads are enough to extrude lead so should extrude COW even if it "hardens". If loads are carefully worked up I cannot see why pressures would suddenly run amok.

However, many slow powders do not like low density loading with lots of excess case volume. That can result in a SEE. So more dangerous I think than filler. I see several recommendation not to go below 80% loading density for some slow burning powders.

As for "fluffy" fillers like Dacron, from what I read, you are best to use a light tuft with no packing. The idea is to hold the powder back against the primer so it is not laying along the length of the case. As far as I know relatively fast to medium burn rate powders are usually used. I am sure someone here will add to this or correct me if that is wrong.

If you pack it down leaving an air gap between "wad" and bullet, the fear is that the Dacron (or whatever) can act as a projectile whacking the base of the boolit and ringing the chamber. Whether this would be an issue if you filled the case, I do not know.

CBE sells wool filler:

http://www.beavergrease.co.nz/index_files/Page314.html

This looks to me like a more substantial filler than puffy Dacron.

From my point of view, I would not hesitate to CAREFULLY work up a load with filler using 4350 if that is what you want to use. I would agree that a shotgun buffer will likely be superior to COW or other cereal filler. However, there also seems to be a successful track record with COW.

You would do well to research this by reading all the info you can then deciding what you feel comfortable doing.

Again, not sure if that helps or confuses.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Not confusing at all! Thanks you, I appreciate the help.

Ummm.... what exactly is COW (Cream Of Wheat)? I like the sound of what it does.

Wool yous say? Mmmm... I happen to have some wool wads that JeffinNZ kindly send me for trials. (I would experiment with cotton but I have succeeded in igniting the stuff and we have some pretty dry bush and grass around here!)

[303Guy]

The Pig Gun is slowly taking shape.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-662F.jpg

Not sure how to aim it yet. It points quite well. I have a scope for it but might just opt for peep sights - scopes fog up in the rain!

[roverboy]

I think I like it. Are you gonna put on a forearm?

[303Guy]

Just a short one, just to cover the action mechanism anf make carry and shooting more comfortable. The thing's real nice to carry as is with hand over the front of the mag and the butt under the armpit and the gun hanging straight down. If it performs the way I hope, I will likely build another one with a better bore and using aluminum for the suppressor to make it lighter (this one's stainless steel). I plan to loose the brass butt piece - too heavy.

My initial testing with the suppressor - which is not a full blown suppressor, just a short overhang two-baffle affair - indicates that 5gr AS30N/Clays under a 208gr boolit is going to be a nice quiet load. 10gr AR2205/H4227 is not too far behind. Very low pressure loads. I first tried 3.2gr AS30N and quiet as it was there was a tongue of flame out the front. That dissappeared with more powder.

I've been trying wool as a filler and so far I like the results but it stinks on firing! It does burn away.

My tests were done firing into the open 'test tube' in my shed. No ear muffs required. Not bad for only two baffles.

[DanWalker]

Not confusing at all! Thanks you, I appreciate the help.

Ummm.... what exactly is COW (Cream Of Wheat)? I like the sound of what it does.

Wool yous say? Mmmm... I happen to have some wool wads that JeffinNZ kindly send me for trials. (I would experiment with cotton but I have succeeded in igniting the stuff and we have some pretty dry bush and grass around here!)
Try using corncob tumbling media for a filler. I used it in a 35 whelen I had. I'd charge it with my powder, then fill to the top of the case with media, and seat a boolit. it compressed the media nicely, and I had no evidence of any mixing taking place between the media and the powder. It worked great and I shot many hundreds of rounds loaded that way, with no ill effects.
It also has the added effect of keeping your bore much cleaner after a long string of shots as the media seems to keep the fouling cleaned out.

[303Guy]

Dan, what powder and what ratio corncob were you using? I'm assuming that was for a slow powder?

[DanWalker]

I was loading 14 grains of Red Dot, then simply filling the case the rest of the way up with corncob media, level with the case mouth. I then seated a 200 grain RCBS boolit to my normal seating depth. I was getting 1480 fps from the 24" barrel of my Mauser98 with this load. I had no pressure signs and it gave great accuracy and zero recoil. I used to plink empty shotgun shells off the 100 yard berm with boring regularity with this load.

[Zeek]

I was loading 14 grains of Red Dot, then simply filling the case the rest of the way up with corncob media, level with the case mouth. I then seated a 200 grain RCBS boolit to my normal seating depth. I was getting 1480 fps from the 24" barrel of my Mauser98 with this load. I had no pressure signs and it gave great accuracy and zero recoil. I used to plink empty shotgun shells off the 100 yard berm with boring regularity with this load.

Thanks for the good tip, Dan! BTW, that load runs just over 32 Kpsi, according to QuickLOAD, but that would be without the filler, which would raise it some. What is your alloy? Is it CB/lube-groove or a PPCBoo?
Zeek

[DanWalker]

Alloy was water dropped WW's. Boolit was the RCBS 200 grainer with a gascheck, tumble lubed with a 50/50 mix of JPW and LLA

[303Guy]

The Pig Gun is slowly nearing completion. A fore-end of some sort is needed now.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-664F.jpg

Today I finaly bought a Chrony! Hopefully, I'll be doing some testing on Wednesday.

[roverboy]

Whats the weight and hows the recoil?

[303Guy]

SUCCESS - FIRST BLOOD!

Not quite a pig, but a turkey!

The chosen Pig Gun boolit - a 230gr very hollow nose worked superbly on the turkey (as was the intent). So that bit is a success too.

25m sighting in.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-670F.jpg

50m 'group'.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-668F.jpg

Not exactly benchrest accuracy but at least 'minute of pig'.8-)

roverboy
It's very light with the original buttstock and brass buttplate contributing a fair bit to the weight That will change. Recoil? What recoil?:bigsmyl2: 14gr AR2205/H4227 under a 230gr boolit with a suppressor has no recoil. Nor does it have much - if any - muzzle blast. The boolit noise is appreciable though! Not deafening but quite noticeable.[smilie=1:

This beasty is real sweet to carry around and if I can get it to group out to 100m/yds it will become my go-to rifle. It does have trajectory issues with its loading (I've no idea what the velocity is - forgot to buy a battery for the Crony!:cry: It is supersonic by a fair margin) but so far the bagging og the turkey was a little more satisfying as I had to get quite close to ensure a hit with an 'accuracy' of 2.9 MOA.

Accuracy may be improve-able by upping the powder charge, but one should remember that gun has a bore that was literally coated with a layer of rust and was bent! Fire-lapping the rust out left the 'bore' oversize (both bore and groove diameter plus the 'rifling' is somewhat narrower than it should be).

Yup. I'm gonna have heaps of fun with this thing!

[Zeek]

Well, 303Guy, I am now going to quit worrying myself about the possibility that you might do some noticeable damage to this lil' rifle. Go-to, indeed. It should be a really sweet woods-walkin' companion, not to mention a Class I Oinker Boynker.
Zeek

[303Guy]

After remounting the scope a little stronger - the first mounting was temporary - the pig gun is showing some promise. Yesterday I tried a new load. In spite of having sized the necks too tight, the gun did manage to hit targets at 70 paces. It's sighted in for 35 paces. The load was 30gr AR2209 (4350) with WB filler and a 205gr PPCBoo. Recoil is very mild but muzzle lift makes me lose the sight picture on small targets. The slower powder creates a lot more muzzle blast, evin with the suppressor - I might just try Varget in it. The 'oinker boynker' is ready for the bush! (Without fore-end. I'll do that next).

[303Guy]

Well, to solve the patch 'tail ring' problem, I am going to try some very short 'tail' patches. (I still haven't done the fore-end on the pig gun - one day it'll get done. :roll: )

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-060F.jpg This is the problem.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-120F-1.jpg We'll see if it works!

[303Guy]

Well, I test tube fired one of these tail-less PPCBoos. I found no patch fragments and there was no tail 'ring' - there couldn't be. Equally important, there was no leading in the bore!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/214grIXTAILLESSFIRED.jpg Splash!

This is looking good so I'm gonna load up a batch and field test them.

P.S. The more I play around and handle this little beast the more I like it!

[DIRT Farmer]

303 guy have you noticed any signs of problems with the 4350 and wheat bran? when I load WB I mesure (with Lee dippers ) enough to fill the neck of the case. I was wondering if this is enough compression/ filler to avoid problems. I have never used COW but the corn meal scared me. I do have an old wool fleace hanging in the barn, might have to try it for sience. I looked at the muzzle of the 2 grove after your sugestion, with the pitting in the bottom of the grouves it could stand to loose an inch, just been so hot in the shop I haven't even been loading and shooting much.

[303Guy]

As scary as using reduced loads of 4350 is, I have found no sign of problems so far. I'm tempted to say it's brilliant stuff with a pck of wheat bran over it. I have taken to trickling the WB slowly through a funnel until the case is overfull then letting the excess fall back into the WB jar. I then compress the WB down the neck with a rod and add some more. I may skip the 'adding some more' if I can satisfy myself that there will be no vibration compacting which will allow the WB and powder to mix.

I would not recommend using a fluffy filler like fleece or dacron as this will do no more than hold the powder against the primer. What we need is a volume filler and wad former and I think wheat bran meets those needs. I would also be too scared to use light loads of 4350 under light boolits.

(My next step will be to load up similar WB and 4350 loads for my two-groove).

[DIRT Farmer]

After a lot of thinking, which is scary and a lot of hard work, I think in a barrel with "issues" some kind of wad is needed. In a necked case a convintional wad under the PP won't work. I pulled down loads that I had used corn meal in and in a few the corn meal was packed rock hard. I fired one of these without a bullit and was surprised there was recoil and had to burn most of the powder. I pulled down 2 with WB and the bran was not packed hard, in fact it expanded some on it's own. As I want usable possible hunting loads, I don't want to go too low on the powder charge. IMR 4350 seems to work better than IMR 4064 and is definatly better than IMR 3031. I think I will contuniue to use some kind of compressable filler.

[Zeek]

. . . a 230gr very hollow nose . . . . 14gr AR2205/H4227 . . . . The boolit noise is appreciable though! Not deafening but quite noticeable. . . . It is supersonic by a fair margin) but so far the bagging og the turkey was a little more satisfying as I had to get quite close to ensure a hit with an 'accuracy' of 2.9 MOA.

With an assumed 14" barrel and no filler, QuickLOAD says that this boolit/charge combo in a 303 should give: ~1030 fps; 10500 psi max, of which 4600 psi is left at the muzzle (WAY noisy w/o that supressor); it comes to peak pressure after 2.14" of Boo travel. Clearly, if you are hearing a supersonic "crack," then that is because the filler upped the pressure and, therefore, the MV one would otherwise get wtih that charge.

Roughly comparable max pressure, but higher MV, with that CBoo could be had with: 32gr of AA-4350 (70% loading density, so would need a filler); 36.3 gr of Accurate XMR 3100 (79.8% LD); 32gr of IMR 4831 (70.6% LD); 35gr Alliant Reloder-22 (75.5% LD); 36.4gr Alliant Reloder-25 (80.5% LD); or 32gr Alliant Reloder-19 (71.1% LD). These would all give ~1250 fps w/o a filler. Take ALL the above with a few grains of salt . . . . you've heard of rock music? . . . well this'll be rock salt.
'Nuff said,
Zeek

[303Guy]

Thanks for that Zeek. I really should get my brand new un-used Chrony out and find out exactly what is happening!

When I say '4350' I am using the name genericly. The actual powder I use is AR2209 which is the Oz equivalent of H4350 except that it has a burn rate comparable to IMR4350 (different manufacturing lot and the Hodgdon lot is larger and made and blended to tighter specs for Hodgdon but otherwise comes out the same factory. My understanding is that H4350 is highly consistant from lot to lot).


I think in a barrel with "issues" some kind of wad is needed.Yup. I think so too.


I pulled down 2 with WB and the bran was not packed hard, in fact it expanded some on it's own.That's the news I like to hear! I can't pull my loads as I've lost my boolit puller - Doh! WB seems to me to have many desirable characteristics as a bottleneck case filler (ease of getting it into the case is not one of them but is not too bad with the right funnel and pouring technique).

[DIRT Farmer]

I used my old reliable puller, apair of side cutters on the top of the press.I figure if thebullet goes in there it can come out there.

As for pouring WB in I have a funnel I drilled out to almost 30 cal if I don't just dump it in, most goes in the case and a short piece of ramrod finishes it.

I was having shooting withdrawl so I loaded 20 PP 10 with 311-291 170 and an old Lyman 150 with a BB. I loaded 19 grns of 4227 under it. I just read the bit on lubing the patch, I was gping to try these without any wax. I guess the worst would be a noise only event.

[DIRT Farmer]

Ok the 4227 and 150 was a bust They went through the paper stright, bout all I can say.

34 grns 4350 and 170 OK

But the bit that might interest you after your discription of your barrel, I had 9 rds that I was going to pull down 311284 with 34 grns of 4350, So I put a good dollop of LLA on the exposed paper. 5 went into about 2inches at 50 the other 4 opened it up to 3 and one half. I was shooting at 50 because the shade tree was there. There was a lube ring at the muzzle and I did not smell any purnt paper that normaly means a wide flyer.

[303Guy]

I used my old reliable puller, a pair of side cutters on the top of the press.Thanks for that. What was I thinking? Like I'm going to save a pulled PPCBoo! Pliers work just fine too!

[303Guy]

The Pig Gun has proved itself in the bush and on steep and muddy slopes - in principle at least. I only got to give the finishing shots to the cranium - even if they weren't really needed!:mrgreen:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/th_MVC-153F.jpg?t=1302506580

The boolit performed just fine, creating quite a large exit wound on the one and 'de-horning' the other. Still no idea how that boolit will perform on a pig or deer but the gun itself is a superb bush carry piece. I can even slip it into my belt for hands free carry (not keen on that while loaded though!:roll: ) :drinks:

[barrabruce]

You didn't say what you shot with it.
Goat I presume.
:)
Barra

[303Guy]

Yup. Goats. I never imagined a goat would taste so good. My UK hunting mate is a venison cook. He can make silk purses from sows ears! So good in fact that I want to hunt goat for the meat! I use the term 'hunt' loosely here. But the the last goats I hunted were actually hunted. The difference is that once located the goats just wait to be shot! They're nice animals. They survive well and breed fast and they're there!

[nanuk]

303Guy: I work with a fellow who married a Jamaicain, she cooks Goat LOTS.
they eat it every way.

I think Curried, and Jerked is their favorite

[303Guy]

... a Jamaicain, she cooks Goat LOTS.
they eat it every way.Heyyy .... we had some billy goat the other evening. Wow! Fantastic! To think we pay quite a good deal on eating out but after eating old billy I was thinking "what a waste of money!". I'm a confirmed goat meat hunter! :drinks:

DIRT Farmer, I missed that line you posted a while back - well, it didn't register at the time anyway -

There was a lube ring at the muzzle and I did not smell any purnt paper that normaly means a wide flyer. That's a pretty significant observation! I'm not sure how to interpret it but I'm sure it needs more looking into. We could all learn something from it.:drinks:

[DIRT Farmer]

303guy, I take the burnt powder as a failed patch, I just thought it werid to see a lube star on the muzzle. I have since found them after firing several loads using the B/P lube on the paper. I put a light film of 50% bees wax 40% crisco and 10% olive oil on the paper, just enough to seat the casting and not damage the paper. I also have started using the Lee collet die, I need to make up a mandral when I find the size I need. I seem to get the best groups whe there is some restance to closing the bolt from the neck being slightly to large. And yes 20 rounds will leave a lube star apperance but it is very hard like varnish. Powder fouling and lube? It cleans easy with WD-40.

[303Guy]

I like to feel that resistance when I close the bolt (lock it actually, but you know what we mean). I was so convinced that the Pig Gun bore was so bad that just getting the shots onto paper was an achievement. Now I beginning to think there is no reason to settle for mediocre accuracy with this gun. It'll flipping shoot longer range with some boolit and load tweaking. I've done none of that - I just took the first load that disintegrated the patch and tried it at a range (quarry actually). Besides, the gun is soooo nice to carry around!:smile:

I've developed my new boolit and patch - now to load up some test loads and go group them.

[DanWalker]

It never ends does it?
We are ALL hopeless tinkerers...

[DIRT Farmer]

Well I would hate to pick up a rifle and the first load I tried worked perfectly. There are a few that would not had to be so diffucult though. I am still playing with WW, 22 RF and pure lead in several diamiters. This whole game seems to help keep me from hanging around with disreptuable types though.

[303Guy]

We are ALL hopeless tinkerers... Yup. That we are.:mrgreen:

I can't wait to get back into the field with a new load to try out. You know how much excersize all this gives me? Those hills are pretty steep and there's a lot of bush bashing to find the goats! Yup, life is good with a gun in the hand, loaded with hand made boolits.:drinks:


Well I would hate to pick up a rifle and the first load I tried worked perfectly.That would be too easy - and no fun.

[MBTcustom]

Oh I don't know, sometimes its a nice surprise to get good accuracy the first time out. When I bought Winifred Magnus (Remington 700 in 300 winmag) the very first time I went out with her I got three shot groups that I can cover with a dime at 200 yards, and that's with a sporter barrel!! I still have the proof target. The crummy thing is that I was having so much fun shooting these awesome loads that I used up all forty of them on that first outing. I forgot to write down the seating depth and I haven't been able to find that sweet spot again. But it is maddeningly fun to chase that perfect group that I know the rifle will do!!!.

Hey 303guy, that is one sweet rifle. Can you explain the barrel to me? Is that some sort of shroud? By the way you talk about it, being light and all, I cant imagine that its a bull barrel I'm seeing. Maybe an integral silencer? Sorry, if this was covered earlier, I cant find it.

[303Guy]

Yup, that's an overbarrel suppressor. The barrel is an SMLE (No.I MkIII) which is very light. The suppressor overhangs the muzzle by about 2 inches I think. That bore is badly rust damaged so the project started out a trial just to see. Now I want to make it permanent which means threading the suppressor end so the baffle group can be removed for cleaning of the barrel outer for rust prevention. The shroud or suppressor body is stainless and is fixed to the knox form with fibreglass and resin. The motivation for it was hunting in the rain in cold wet and very muddy bush with steep slopes of soft dirt. That gun fits under my poncho. It's also intended for dense bush pig hunting, hence the the name. Originally the pig gun was going to be a 375-303 for the short barrel performance but that got put on hold. I'm patching boolits for it as I speak. :mrgreen: The castings are lying here on my PC table and I cut patches and wrap them from time to time every day.

[303Guy]

So here I was happily patching away when I noticed that I could not make out the patch outine under the 'end'. To my consternation I discovered that my patches were actually stretching under my 'twist and turn' routine which tightens the wrap. I've had to modify the patch size to suite this stretching. That's a good thing I hope?

[MBTcustom]

Oh Yeah, just trim your template a little (or multiply by 3.1 instead of 3.1415), I roll mine the same way (fingers, not cig roller) once I started to get the hang of it, I noticed that I can make the paper stretch some. It was funny when I was first starting to patch a few months ago I was telling my father that I wrap cheap paper dry. He asked me how I get the paper to stick to itself and come out right, (He used to shoot alot and he would use high quality cotton paper wet.) Well I tore a strip out of his news paper and said "watch this" an wrapped it around the base of a plastic pen. I twisted and twisted for a few seconds and then I handed it to him and told him to try to pull the patch off. He couldn't.

[MBTcustom]

An integral silencer, what an awesome rifle. I have to ask though, don't the patches clog er up? or do they manage to hang together until they get through the baffles? What about the 375? I really wish you were here in the U.S., I could help with some of these things!!!
I also wanted to know if you have any slick ideas for covering the action? I noticed you ditched the fore-arm. Also can I talk you into posting a closeup of the scope-mount? actually I am having a hard time making out any detail caus the picture is so small.

Very nice rifle, I'm sure she appreciates feeling useful again.

[303Guy]

Hee hee!:mrgreen:

There'e a good reason I didn't post a too detailed picture. This gun is a prototype and the scope base is just glued on!:rolleyes: Now that I know it works I'll be getting round to making it a little more permanent.

The gun is still to get a fore-arm to just past the magazine, mainly to bed the action but also to make it look a bit better. Having taken it affield, I now know the barrel needs to be clear as I can slip it under my belt for easy carry.

A 375 would make such a short barrelled gun really powerful. It would need a much larger suppressor to reduce the recoil to my levels of tolerance. The Pig Gun still has a fair amount of 'push' - enough to smack me on the eyebrow if I don't hold it firm enough.

The baffles are funnel shaped so as to handle any paper or other debris that may get into the suppressor.

[MBTcustom]

You are way too modest. I really wanted to see it but I understand. You know I really like the look youve got going on there. If it was me I would aquire a chopped for-end and cut it off right under the barrel. Make a solid pillar to separate the separate the action from the trigger guard and glue it in (Ive got a picture of mine you probably already saw.) Anyways, you could slim it down to just the bare minnimum that it takes to cover the magazine.
Light weight, check
Slim profile, check
Elegent design, check
Fun as cow tippin, double check!!!

[303Guy]

I'll post a picture. I just don't have a close up one. Not yet anyway.:mrgreen: I'll post some as I get them done.

[303Guy]

Picture as promised. Not very good I'm afraid. I'll have to use natural light.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PIGGUN010.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PIGGUN014.jpg


This is a way better method of doing a LE I (NoI MkI) action scope mount.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-539F.jpg

The mount gets soldered onto the sides of the action at the rear.

[303Guy]

My latest lot of castings for the Pig Gun are coming out a little smaller it seems and I had to switch to the thicker printer paper. That's the paper that is compressing so nicely in the case neck. So far there is no bore leading but then there is a fat wad of wheat bran behind the boolit to clean up the bore if there was any. I've also mentioned in my cig roller thread that I have found a way to dry wrap using a cig roller and that produces an accurately aligned patch and much quicker than before so I am getting the numbers of shootable PPCB's up quite nicely. Plus it no longer hurts my fingers like it used to!8-)

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PIGGUN011.jpg

[MBTcustom]

Very nice, I like it! Never saw a glue on scope mount before but Its good to know that it will work in a pinch.

[303Guy]

I'm trying out a new load for the Pig Gun. I got it from CB Loads, Your Favorite Cartridge in the sticky there with a link to castpics.com. There they list IMR4227 and according to the powder cross referece chart I have it's similar to H4227 and AR2205 which I happen to have and is why I was looking there. So, I started off low and worked up to one grain below there listed max and decided that the primer indication and boolit disintegration in soft sand was high enough. That establishes the max I would go to if accurate and if the boolit doesn't do too much damage to the game I intend shooting with it. I do get higher velocity than what I was getting with AR2209/H4350 and wheat bran filler in that short barrel. It should be quieter which is actually my main aim. The gun sounds like an unsuppressed 22HV rimfire in the bush as it is.

I also had a stuck case at one load level but a higher level without any sizing at all, the case came out fine. It is firm to chamber - always has been.

So, well see how she shoots with that load.

[longbow]

On the subject of scope mounts, if you haven't seen them Brownells has some no gunsmith scope mounts:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=12461/Product/NO_DRILL__NO_TAP_SCOPE_MOUNT

I just got one and installed it on my No. 5. I will be trying it out for the first time today!

Very easy to install an in my case, I did not want to drill and tap or solder/braze. My No. 5 is in reasonable shape and I have a No. 4 that is is very good shape so did not want to alter the guns but did want a scope.

What powder charge of 4227 and what boolit weight are you using?

I have had pretty good results so far using 19 grs. IMR4227 under an NOE 316299 202 gr. boolit (no not paper patched).

Longbow

[303Guy]

So, I keep hearing about the wonders of Unique as a cast boolit powder and eventually gave in to the temptation! Well, OK, not quite Unique but close enough. Shotgun Powder of the AS30N label which I believe to be similar to Bullseye. It's a high bulk single base flake powder for those not familiar with it. Well, my cases can hold 22.4gr of the stuff. I started with 7grs and found it to be very mild so went to 10grs and found that to be getting close to as much as I should be using. Boolit deformation in soft sand was not too bad but definately below what can be achieved with slower powders. However, the convenience and quietness of the stuff makes it rather attactive to me.

Being a paper patched 206gr boolit, there were a few graffiti sized fragments recovered and zero bore leading. I did use the test loads as fire-lapping rounds using a product called AUTOSOL Metal Polish.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PIGGUN063.jpg
7grs then 10grs

I used the stuff to polish the chamber while I was at it. I'm not sure what it did to the chamber but it sure polished the case!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PIGGUN064.jpg

This case has taken a beating. It's the one I use for all my Pig Gun test tube tests. It never grows in length but it has jammed in the chamber once or twice. I smeared the Autosol on it during the these test firings. It got one body only sizing - using the wrong die! The rim damage was from a broken extractor which actually still worked until the case jammed solid.

[303Guy]

Took my 9yr old great-nephew and the Pig Gun for an outing. He loved it! Anyway, the Pig Gun had its turn with the new boolit I have made for it (in a post above). It's a flat nose and shorter and a little lighter at 206gr and now feeds through the magazine. Well, the Pig Gun is accurate! I'm talking hitting point of aim at 100 plus yds/m - exact point of aim. It's not slouching either. I really need to chronogragh that load (30gr AR2209/H4350 with the case space filled with wheat bran). This rifle is becoming my favourite go-to. It's short and lightweight and very handy to carry around and it just fits.

[MBTcustom]

Light, accurate, hard-hitting, cheap to shoot, worth more for these attributes than its worth in currency, I'd say you are close to having the ultimate rifle. I'm still looking for my "soul-mate":mrgreen:

[303Guy]

So I just had to 'play' with the pig gun again! This little beasty is just so dandy and easy to shoot. But it needs enough oomph! Plus I want to lose the what bran filler and the associated un-detached patch. So, I've tried upping the charge and it works in the test tube. The charge I like best is 40gr AR2209/H4350 because it burns clean and produces moderate pressure although I'm sure it will increase the noise some (the suppressor works pretty good). But now I've boolit base peening.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/001-1.jpg

The L/H primer and boolit is with a 35gr charge under a 208gr boolit and the R/H one is 40gr under a 206gr boolit. (Maybe a grain more in each case with the patch). It's still a long way from being a hot load but with over 80% load density I feel safer. Hopefully I'll be getting the velocity I'm after, that being 1800fps. Range tests to follow.

[303Guy]

Well, I decided to go all the way after realizing that this guns bore is actually smoothing up and is no longer fragmenting patches at the original loading. I went to 40gr AR2209/H4350 first under a 192gr boolit with card wad and then under a 208gr boolit without wad. The base peening is very evident without a wad so that's what I'll be doing.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/193.jpg Pressure is still mild.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/192gr_Card_Wad-1-1.jpg

[303Guy]

I seem to be honing in on the ideal boolt for this gun. It looks like it'll be a hollow nose 205gr straight side that just bumps the 'leade' (if one can call it a leade). nearly half the boolit is in contact with the shallow taper throat/leade. I have to use a push through sizer which allows a firm seating of the boolit in an unsized case neck. The boolit engages right up at the nose/body junction (and it has a short nose). So we'll see how this boolit performs on the range! (I could come home with my tail between my legs :( ).

The knurling is because the boolits are casting so smooth the patch doesn't grip.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/205grPigGunMkXXI004.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/205grPIGGUNMkXXI007.jpg

[grullaguy]

Have you hunted with the rifle yet? Be sure to post some nice pig pictures in the hunting section when you do.

[303Guy]

I have you know. Not pig hunting although I was with it one day when we came across a sounder of pigs in a field. We sneaked up on them just to see how close we could get. Eventually the pigs got nervous at me aiming at them and left. It's a great rifle to carry around.

[geargnasher]

I'd get nervous and leave too, if some bloke crept up on me while I was eating and kept pointing a rifle at me!! :kidding:

Gear

[303Guy]

After having problems with boolit base peaning and edge feathering, I finally got brave enough to fill the case to the brim with powder (to the base of the neck), fit a card wad and seat the boolit, this time a lighter 194gr with thicker printer paper patch. This patched boolit compresses the paper on seating and really holds the boolit tight. Well, the gun did not blow up! In fact, the pressure was moderate. Best part is the boolit base was undamaged. The charge was 44gr AR2209/H4350. There was a tiny air-gap between the wad and powder as the boolit doesn't fill the neck when seated to engage the rifling.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/44gr2209194grPPCARDWAD002.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/44gr2209194grPPCARDWAD001.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/44gr2209194grPPCARDWAD004.jpg

This load is beginning to reach the pressure my normal j-word loads run at in my two-groove (the rust textured bore one - it won't shoot PPCB's!)

I should mention - the case was a jamb fit in the chamber (would not extract) but after firing it came out easily. There was no case neck bulging into the chamber rust pits and bore was nice and clean. I'm going to field test this load.

[303Guy]

I managed to slip a 206gr boolit into the mix with a full case of AR2209 (44gr). It looked good so I tried again and then again. Then I did a calculation which indicates a muzzle velocity a bit in excess of 1900fps for the little shorty 370mm (14.6 inch) barrel (measured from breach face). Pressure is no longer mild - it's moved into the moderate zone. It's now hard to evaluate boolit base damage or cupping due to impact damage but what readable signs exist indicate not too bad. I don't want to reduce powder charge as that charge is 100% load density with my PMP cases. The downside is the suppressor probably won't cope with the muzzle blast.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/205gr44gr2209EXCESSIVEPRESSURE001.jpg

If it shoots these loads straight it will kill any oinker.

[303Guy]

Finally got to chronograph that 44gr load. 2018fps! Call that to 2000fps since I only put one over the Chrony while it was actually switched on and registered! It's only an indication and that indication is just fine. It's quite fast for such a short barrel and apparently moderate pressure. Recoil is still mild with the suppressor but muzzle lift is quite marked. The rifle is no longer all that quiet. I'll need to add another baffle to the suppressor - it only has two at the moment. I'll slow the boolit down by making it heavier at 206gr.

So it seems that the little shorty will deliver what I want and then some. It's only supposed to be 100m gun and that is an upgrade from the initial 25m I had hoped for. If it doesn't deliver the accuracy I want I have a good barrelled rifle waiting to take its place.

[303Guy]

So I decided to 'fire-polish' the pig gun bore. I used a groove sized casting rolled into Auto-Sol Metal Polish. I smeared a whack of the stuff around the nose and also some around the case neck. The polish was to act as a 'lube'. It worked!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/FIRE-POLISHING002.jpg

The boolit engaged the rifling fully with no shearing. It might even have polished the bore a little. It sure did polish the case.

The sharp appearance of the rifling impressions belies the actual condition of the bore.

Notice the gas cutting. The second one had wheat germ filler and that stopped any gas cutting.

[longbow]

I have noticed gas cutting very much the same as on your boolit and note that it almost always is at the rifling groove not land just as yours is.

That indicates to me that the fit in the bottom of the groove cannot be sealing well... maybe an obvious statement but I have seen this even with significantly oversize boolits that barely fit the throat.

I would have figured that with obturation and swaging going on that an oversize boolit would seal up pretty much all over but apparently that is not the case.

Yes, the rifling engraving is quite clear and sharp on the boolit. I would not expect that from a bore as bad as you describe.

So far I have been lucky in that all my .303's have quite nice bores. I just picked up a "new" sporterized No. 4 mark 2 with a very nice bore and I have another No. 4 still full military and two No. 5's all with nice bores. I am hoping to pick up another No. 5 in very good condition shortly.

No suppressors or pigs here though! I would like both. We are not allowed suppressors and I guess I really don't want a pig invasion like they are having South of us in the States.

Are there a lot wild pigs in New Zealand? I guess they are hard on the native critters and habitat.

It will be interesting to see how the pig gun works on a pig with your cast PP boolits.

As always, great photos. I need a better camera!

Longbow

[nanuk]

longbow: in Sk, the pigs are getting to be a real problem in some areas, mostly places with large tracts of bush/forest.
Moose Mountain Park... around St Brieux, NE of Saskatoon!

my buddy and I are fixing to get down to St B to hunt some hogs this summer...

[303Guy]

Pigs are everywhere here. I'm not sure they do more damage than just digging in the pristine (and other) forests. Hunters love them! Ours can be feral pig to European wild bore crosses.

[303Guy]

Fired a slightly heavier 256gr 'fire-polishing' boolit. I'm wondering if'n I could load up a batch of these and go shooting. I mean using metal polish as a lube! The bore can only get polished which it sorely needs and the 'lube' works. I'm not sure there is a hillside deep enough to stop that boolit but you know .... :wink: Point is, after a few magazines of these the bore should be nicely conditioned for patched boolits.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/256grImoldAUTOSOL003.jpg

[zuke]

That almost look's like a log!
Must knock'em down pretty good.

[longbow]

303guy:

I have a mould I made that was supposed to be a smooth 314299 clone (not for paper patching) but I overdid diameter and length a bit. It came out at 0.318" body with 0.310" nose and about 225 grs. I have to seat it a bit deep since the bore ride nose is a little large but it shoots well tumble lubed over COW filler and a moderate powder charge. I have not shot a bunch, but those I have did not lead and were quite accurate.

So, try tumble lube or your polish and go for the gusto! I bet they perform just fine. For light to moderate loads you don't need PP or GC.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Some feedback on the Auto-Sol lube idea. It doesn't work long term as the stuff dries out and fails. Talk about leading!

I found the cut-off bit of the pig gun barrel. Here are some pics of it.

574995750057501

[303Guy]

Just had a look at my old post and was surprised at what I found. Stuff I'd forgotten about.

Finally got to chronograph that 44gr load. 2018fps! That's not too shabby for a short barrel! The powder was H4350 which is fairly slow. Anyway, I'm looking into trying some W748 in it again.

[Artful]

So how is the pig gun now? - did it ever get a woody up front still just tube?

[303Guy]

Sadly, everything went on hold. I wanted to take it out last weekend but couldn't find the ammo! I've put the butt stock back on the 25-303 where it belongs. I'm considering making it an open sighted gun. It's range and accuracy don't warrant a scope and considering what it was for - bush and mud and rain. But a scope is good for poor light and identifying targets.

Looking at that polishing boolit makes me wonder about trying plain old lubed boolits.

[Digital Dan]

Unlubed paper patch will polish your bore about as fast as anything and do a better job than most other abrasives.