Just Thinking

[chrisx1]

O.k. - we have been talking about various items that we need to persue our hobby of swaging.....different modifications to dies, building presses, different types of presses. This group definately has the imagination to go in any direction and has the shooting background to do the R&D once the equipment has been made.

Seems to me the biggest difficulty we are having is the availability of good tooling, and to date, our solution has been: modify something currently in production until it works right, or, build something entirely from scratch by ourselves.

I think both of these options are workable, but neither is ideal - we are generally shooters, not machinists, although we do have several among us (not me) that are very experienced machinists.

The people who are doing the most here are the ones who are either machinists by trade, or have a dual hobby.

My idea is: why don't we enlist the help of some people who are as dedicated to machinist persuits as we are to shooting. If we could partner with some good hobby machinists, we could feed them projects, and get back custom tooling to use in our hobby. I've seen some of those 9x20 lathes turn out some pretty good stuff - Lathesmith is a perfect example. He makes outstanding stuff. He has recently upgraded his machinery, but I know that he started out making those Star dies on a 7x10 Harbor Freight or something.

I'm not suggesting that we take advantage of anyone here - just use each other's strengths to play off one another.

If a friend of yours came up to you today and said: I just bought a new pistol and I want to work up the best load possible for cast boolits, you would not hesitate, you would invite him over, work up the loads, do some shooting, charge him what it cost you (maybe) and chalk it up as a great afternoon!

Does anyone know of a forum that has a similar helpful attitude to Cast Boolits, and focus on hobby machining?

Well, just thinking......so if this is a stupid idea, just let the thread die off.

Chris

[ANeat]

There are some hobby machinist sites for sure but honestly this place has the best combination in my opinion.

Plenty of great shooting sites as well but most you bring up something machining related and its pretty sparse.

A lot of guys here dont really heavily advertise there other abilities. I repair machine tools for a living and play with them at home. Have a bridgeport and 12x36 lathe to keep me occupied in the colder months.

For me im pretty intent on making my own dies (after a press it seems like) I know to get them "right" will probably take some trial and error.
Im not sure if any "machinist" forum would give me the motivation and ideas as well as the help/advice I get here.

[CWME]

I have a lifelong friend/shooting/ hunting/reloading buddy that is a tool and die maker. My neighbor owns a machine shop in the town we live in(he almost bought my land for my shop building) and he also likes to shoot.

I mention this because neither one of them will work with metal anything away from work. I bugged them both for the better part of a year to teach me how to thread on my lathe. Ended up reading a bunch of stuff on the net and figured it out on my own. The most I can get out of them are a few words of wisdom or nuggets of info every now and then. In my experience getting someone who "knows" how, to actually do it, has proved impossible.

[Willbird]

Some people simply LOVE to machine things, and I am one of those, others just do it as a JOB.

Bill

[chrisx1]

That's the kind of person I'm thinking about - If we could find a couple of people who LOVE to machine things, we could finance some of their hobby!

It may be one of those things that when you start making it about money it turns into a job instead of a hobby.

[deltaenterprizes]

I love to machine things and have knowledge, experience and tooling.
I have $12,000 invested in tooling and 10 years experience. My rate is $40/hr plus materials and the cost of an special tooling need to do the job.
I am disabled and can only work a couple of hours a day,when the weather is right, no extreme heat or cold. It takes a week to do what I once did in a day.
I have made parts for members of this forum that were not available from other sources.
Not to offend but what non machinists do not understand is the major cost is in the time to figure out the set up and doing the set up for one of a kind parts. Few home shops have heat treating ovens or precision grinding equipment, those are specialties in their own right. Precision grinding is very dirty and uses a lot of consumable tooling.
Most hobby machinists barely have time to do their own projects.
The hobby machinist forum I visit, "The Home Shop Machinist" does not allow commercial solicitations.
"The Practical Machinist" forum has a RFQ (request for quote) are in the commerce section.
"The Home Machinist" forum allows commercial solicitation, but has little traffic.
"Metal Illness" is just about dead.
There is also a site called RFQ that is geared to requests for quotes on metalworking projects, but be prepared to pay commercial shop rates.

The idea that there are hobby machinists looking to do your project for little or nothing is a myth. Tooling costs a lot of money and has limited life and will cost more to replace it than it cost when you first bought it. I will accept all donations of free metalworking machines and tooling.
PM or email me with your projects, I can give references.
I may take payment in smelted WW metal.

[JSnover]

No one should expect to get anything done dirt cheap because everybody needs to eat and equipment needs to be paid for. But.... if we did design the perfect widget for shooters this is the place to get it made because the machinists are here with us. They speak our language.
Chrisx1 has me thinking about a sort of group buy arrangement, where one member might do the turning and boring, another member could mill/drill/tap, someone else could grind or heat treat. Shipping would cost more because the parts would have to move through several shops. If enough items could be contracted and the operation could be simplified it could work IF the shops AND the customers could agree upon and provide the same level of quality.
That's why you need a hobbyist. Someone who does it for a living doesn't have the luxury of making reloading equipment for his pals: He's on the clock and his boss won't think highly of him stealing company time.
On the other hand, there's often not enough spare time to commit to something like that, especially if the profit margin is low. Listen to some of the grumbling on the Group Buy forum when the molds are slow to come in. Imagine those molds being cut by a guy who does it because he loves it but he's already working 40+ hours at his regular job and has to make time for his family, etc.
I think it's a great idea. It's a shame that it's just not realistic, in my opinion.

[Willbird]

Some of the stuff we are talking about could better be done with an ID grinder, or a Sunnen hone, I can make a few for me by lapping ID's round and straight. But that will quickly become tedious to do more than just a few.

I know a guy just a few miles down the road that has 2-3 ACME screw machines setting idle, a project like a group buy for push through sizers for example I could probably get a quote from him to run me a 5 gallon bucket full of them now and then....AFIAK the machines set idle anyway, so they might as well set idle set up for a job ;-).

Same deal on swaging dies...if he could machine them with say a .25 pilot hole in them a lot of the work would be done, then they just need finished.

Ditto on star sizer dies.

ONE issue is the goal of some folks is "the cheaper the better" and that will not put beans on the table for an honest tradesmen........some dude in his garage will make the part for $10 and take 3 hours to do it......and be happy because he has $10 to buy beer with.

Bill

[deltaenterprizes]

ONE issue is the goal of some folks is "the cheaper the better" and that will not put beans on the table for an honest tradesmen........some dude in his garage will make the part for $10 and take 3 hours to do it......and be happy because he has $10 to buy beer with.

Bill[/QUOTE]

And they expect the same quality work as a shop that charges $80/hr.

[Willbird]

And perish the thought that the guy doing $80 worth of work for $10 would charge a $5 handling fee on top of usps actual shipping costs :-).

[chrisx1]

Don't get me wrong here guys, if my OP sounded like I wanted something for nothing, that's not what I intended.

I think we're on the right track here though.

Our issue in the swaging hobby is lack of available machinery/dies. We don't have the same problem with casting because you can go to Midway or Mid South, or to the corner Cabelas and buy reloading equipment fairly reliably (save the last 12 mos - and even then you could still get the stuff)

If RCE would actually ship something that had been ordered, or if Corbin didn't want you to mortgage your house to buy some of his products, this thread would never have been started.

I know a guy just a few miles down the road that has 2-3 ACME screw machines setting idle, a project like a group buy for push through sizers for example I could probably get a quote from him to run me a 5 gallon bucket full of them now and then....AFIAK the machines set idle anyway, so they might as well set idle set up for a job .

Same deal on swaging dies...if he could machine them with say a .25 pilot hole in them a lot of the work would be done, then they just need finished.

Willbird, I think you are really close here - If I could get my hands on 10-20 swaging dies with a .25 pilot hole in them, I would have a stock of blanks, and when I saved my pennies up, I could send the blank to you or deltaenterprises and tell you what I wanted - you could charge me your going rate and we'd be set.

I think what I'm looking for is more of a network of people to get these types of supplies - you guys who are experienced machinists are set....when you want a new swaging die, you just make one. Me - I'm at the mercy of the available vendors, and in the swaging industry, that's pretty limited.

Maybe the answer to my OP is: "Go buy a lathe and learn a new hobby to turn out dies for your other hobby," -I don't know. It just seems like we have the resources here to get this all put together, we just need to figure it out.

Just thinking out loud.

[bohica2xo]

Ok, this will probably get a bit long, but here goes.

chrisx1 Started this thread with an idea that a "good hobby machinist" could make the needed tooling. While this is true to a point, most hobbyists do not have the shop resources to be a tool & die shop. An annealed lubrisizer die is a long way from a drawing die for jackets.

Mr Neat, always the master of understatement. I am sure you can make your own dies - Millacron repairman that you are. I notice that you do not jump to offer shop services, even though you are better equipped than many on the forum. I completely understand why.

Which brings us to CWME's post. Don't take it personally, but what could you offer the Tool & Die Maker in return? Please understand that the T&D apprenticeship was a 4 year program. That was 40 hours a week in the shop, and 20 per week in the classroom. For the last year they worked us like dogs, doing the same work as the Journeymen - at a little less than half the pay. I still take the time to help a few people, but many of the Die Makers I know would not sharpen your pocketknife for you if you paid them.

Delta has a small shop. He has been down this road. His shop rate is cheap. As he points out, the time involved in planning & setup can be 10x the actual spindle time on some jobs. I won't even uncover my grinder for a few parts. There are places that will take small job shop orders, and manage distribution to the shops. They charge for this service.

Willbird is closing in on it a bit. The only way to make any money on dies is with production equipment. But that ID grinder does not run cheap. BTW, those ACME's are probably long since depreciated. It does cost money to put a job up on them however. Tooling, setup time & an operator to run the parts. If he will turn the spindle on for less than 80 bucks per hour, you should discuss making the die blanks you want.

I believe at one time somebody WAS offering 7/8-14 die blanks for sale.

The big issue with that project is material. Every die maker has some personal preference. What makes a great die is not easy to machine. I am sure if I ran some blanks out of one kind of steel, the whining would start. Somebody would want to know if I could make them from 12L14 so it would cut easily. If I used O-1, people would want A-2, and so on.

Then there is the heat treating issue. Production dies are roughed, heat treated & finish machined or ground. There are some options in both materials & heat treatment that would help this situation, if you could get everyone on the same page.

I might be willing to stuff a bar or two through the Traub to make some 7/8-14 die blanks if it looked like there was an actual market for them. What material? How long? How much thread?

After much arm twisting I ran a dozen de-rimming dies for the local club members. Rc60 dies, Rc60 M42 punches. Ground & polished. Had trouble getting 75 bucks for them. I traded off the last one recently. Reducing dies much the same story. Everybody complains about Corbin prices, but would not pay half the price either.

I will be happy to advise people here on the designs they are working with. Metallurgy is my field, and again I will gladly offer my input on materials selection for presses & dies.

If we could get enough people doing the same thing it would be worth building some stuff. I have a 70% workload in the shop right now, but there is a horizon in sight.

B.

[CWME]

Bohica2xo, You missed my point.

My point was exactly what you were inferring. Getting someone with the know how to actually do the job will be difficult at best.

For the record I am not cheap. I offered to make him a dining room table in return for a lesson on threading on the lathe. Made him a custom Picture frame for his Grandfather's map from WWII with nothing asked for in return. I don't take other people's time or tallents for granted.

[bohica2xo]

CWME:

I asked the question, and your answer is most telling. Not to put too fine a point on it, but your diemaker pal is a jerk.

Oh sure we used to give the patternmakers a hard time - called them "overpaid carpenters" and the like. But any diemaker should have a lot of respect for precision woodwork - it is not as easy as it looks.

I would certainly have given you the 15 minute tutorial on single pointing a thread - without a picture frame.

I trade labor at times. I have a friend that is one heck of a marble mason. He sawed out the old grout & re-did about 1500 sq feet of tile for me. I spent two days TIG welding his all aluminum ATV trailer in return. He spent a little more time on his knees, but never thought he was shortchanged.

I never said you were cheap. I only asked what you had offered in return. Sorry if you took that the wrong way.

B.

[warf73]

If we could get more than a few people interested I can get machine time. But like stated above the shop I work with cant make ya a good deal on 2 dies but can on 20. Its all about set up time vs number of parts, aka. 1 part or 2k parts.

Get some plans put together some rough blue prints and I'll get quotes. Last time I priced machine time it was under $45 hour. I can get it cheaper if the machine is open and I run the parts.

If we can get something going on paper I can get something going here. Thats if they have machine time open. If they dont have machine time open(nothing running at the time) we would be charged full shop rates and I'll get that nailed to the exact dollar.

Just something to think about till I know for sure whats going on at the shop and what you all want to do.

Warf

[CWME]

Bohica2xo, no worries, good to go=) Knowledge is valuable to me. I don't have time to go to school for all the hobbies. So some time in the shop slicing and dicing some wood is worth the effort for the nuggets of info in return.


Lets toss a question out there... For a two die set to make 22LR into 55 gr flat base open point .224 bullets on a RCBS Rockchucker, what are we looking at for cost? Corbins come out to $447 for those two dies.
Honestly that price is starting to look reasonable for everything involved with making them. HOWEVER... If you talented folks put together say 20 kits and offered them for a set price it may work out for everyone involved. I use the 22LR kits because i believe there is a HUGE market.

[dragonrider]

I have been a machinist for 40 or so years and have had my own shop for hobby work and repairs when needed for about 30 of those years. When I first started my shop I did work for some folks that sold parts to various companies, they made no parts just contracted with folks like me to make them. Consequently I didn't make a lot of money doing this so when my machinery was paid for I quit doing that. Since then I have made stuff for myself, friends and family. My Star sizer has kept me busy lately making dies and punches for the various new molds that I have been getting. I do them a little different than others in that my dies are boolit specific, that is I make a die and punch for each boolit I have. Doing so allows me to change dies and punches in about 1.5 minutes and be lubing on the very first stroke of the handle without adjustments of any kind. I can easily set up to do 5 boolits for testing a load or 500 because I now have the load that I want. My point of all that is that if I were to charge money for my dies I doubt that I would sell any. It takes time and I need several samples of the boolit that the die is being made for. I do make a die extraction tool for the Star sizer that I could be talking into make for others but that does not take nearly the time that a die takes. I have posted about the monoblocs I make for my TCR 87 rifle allowing me to have more calibers for that gun because they have not available for many years. These monoblocs take quite some time to make and are fitted to my rifle and I am not sure they would fit any other, and I don't know anyone else who has one so I can't find out. I recently posted in the "RCE presses" thread about building that type of press and I will be doing at least one in the near future. I will be working just from the pics available here and with some trial and error I am sure I could come up with one that works well. About that there are other problems, I think, when it come to patents. Don't know if these presses are patented but I would think that they are so making and selling some could come back to haunt you in a big way. Just my thoughts about that. I have other thoughts about making a press but will share those thoughts in that thread.
Yes we hobby machinist are out here and doing stuff, some for money, others for barter, I kind of like the barter system myself. Lathesmith is out there making excellent quality Star dies and selling them for a very, very good price, I doubt very much that he is making much with each sale, but he is helping out those who can't do it and for whom funds may be tight. I think therein lies much of the pleasure he gets in making his dies. I will talk about making whatever for anyone here, if I don't think I can make it so be it, but if I can and we can come to an arrangement then we are off and running. Well I think I will go warm up the shop and get started on something.

[DragonsBane]

I've been a machinist for going on 20 years now. I agree with a lot of what was said here. Tools and tooling can get quite expensive.

I do my job because I love what I'm doing, not for the money. But a run a few dies is actually more of a pain than anything. With the cost of heat treating and all that, it really isn't worth making only a few. Now if I would get of my dead butt and actually build the heat treat oven I have plans for then it my actually be doable.

I need to get of my dead butt and get my garage wired for power too.

[scrapcan]

First off I would like to echo the sentiment by those who are the machinists or any other professional for that matter, expereince is not cheap. Your time and experience if worth a lot. Thanks for sharing all that you do.

I also fit into the camp of having been bummed because people feel my skills should be cheap. I shoe horses, only I shoe very few these days I have a full time job doing something totally unrelated.

It seemes like people do not have the true appreciation of the difficulty or the necessary preparation to do intricate work. It only takes one or two people to say boy I will trade you x for your work, and not understand that their x is only worth a thenth of what they are asking for.

I also come from an area that has no opportunity to learn machining orther than from books/videos/reading here and we have very few true machinists or shops in town. One retired and is now a carpenter as he can make more money and another opened an auto repair business for the same reason. Niether will offer hobby level training nor will they take work. I would like to have stuff done, but it simply cannot be done locally. And when you get to a place where there are shops my job is not of a scale that you can do on an economic basis.

If you guys are interested in making tooling that will fit corbin equipment. I posted a good write up originally by Ted Smith and forwarded to me by a fellow member here that gives dimensions for blanks and punches. I would really like to be able to buy a blank that I could then try my hand and cutting a cavity and lapping/polishing.

If you cannot find the thread with document by Ted Smith, let me know. Better yet here is the link

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=52502&highlight=ted+smith

If you guys come up with blanks I would be in for a few. Especially if we might be able to trade.

[ANeat]

I think blanks like you describe would be really nice, but then you have the situation where what press do you make them for?

A regular reloading press, CSP, Walnut Hill?? The press's that take the larger dies could be reduced down easy enough with an adapter

BTW thanks for the PDF of the Ted Smith doc. I had missed that before, great stuff...

[Daywalker]

Not sure if this helps. On Midwayusa, you can type in die blank. They have die blanks for 14.00 that fits the regular press's.

[bohica2xo]

Ah, there they are. Thanks Daywalker.

Like I said, somebody made a bunch of die blanks.

Of course they are 4140, not the best choice for forming dies. The so called heat treatment listed at that site will leave you with some very soft stuff too.

4140 should be oil quenched from 1575f, then drawn back in an oven @ 600f for an hour per inch. A second draw after cooling to room temperature @650f will give better stability for this use, and will leave you around 400 Bhn.

B.