Hybrid Bullets.

[Bwana]

I have been casting and swaging for thirty years and thought you might be interested in some of the bullets I make.
The process involves forming the jackets from cartridge cases and then filing them with molten lead.
The forming is all done with off the shelf reloading dies and Lee bullet sizing dies.
Here are a few pictures. I hope they turn out alright.
The first two are .458 made from 45ACP and 45GAP.
The next two are a 255gr and 202gr .358 for my .358Win. They are made from 223 brass.
The next three are .458 made from 308 brass, the first is 600grs.
If the pictures work I'll do more of other types.
If there is interest, I give the various steps.

[ANeat]

Well Im interested, they look nice....

[SWANEEDB]

Bring them on, we like em all.

[Heavy lead]

Please enlighten us.

[Multigunner]

I've seen the process before, in a very old American Rifleman journal.
If I find it again it has a few drawings of how this is acomplished and suggestions on how and why to do it.
From what I remember this was originally thought up to produce affordable tough jacketed ammo for older British double rifles in odd calibers, like .470 Nitro.

Since the French "Ball D" bullet was of solid bronze the brass cartridge case jackets are probably no more destructive to a bore than those would have been, or the steel jackets for that matter.

[algunjunkie]

well my curiosity meter is peaked

[Bwana]

For the 45ACP to .458 bullets I use the following items: 45 sizer die and shelholder, 308 Win die set (can use any derivitive case die, ie; 243,7mm-08,260rem...), Lee 457" bullet sizer and a 284 to 357 Lee sizer push rod, a lyman blank shellholder (just a shellholder button-no cuts) you have to ask for them from lyman as they're not listed), a length of 7/8 X 14 all-thread that is faced and smoothed on at least one end, for the notching tool I use a RCBS pistol expander die body that has been reamed out to snug fit a regular chamfer tool, pointed end out the end about 3/8".
Now the blank shellholder will be a one time purchase, get several, and won't wear out. The 7/8 X 14 rod will also be a one time purchase. Also the notching tool will last forever and all these items can/will be used for all bullets of this type.
While you may find yourself buying a die set or several to make these bullets they still retain their ability to reload those rounds so they will be dual purpose purschases. I am a strong believer in "Waste not, want not."

Let's start:
1) First you can sort by make or not, I do.
2) Clean your cases.
3) Size your cases WITHOUT depriming, carbide die so no lube on cases.
4) Notch your cases by screwing in your chamfer tool die (not needed if you don't want to notch or don't have the tool) so that the points from notching are about .020" larger than the case mouth. Use the 45/308 SH to guide case.
5) Anneal. I do this by placing the cases bottom down on the small burner elements on the stove. Then I cover them and the element with an upside down stainless one quart sauce pan and turn the Heat to Hi for seven minutes, turn the burner off and let them sit like that for two more minutes. Meanwhile the other small burner has its cases set up and the pan is switched to it for their seven min. During their heat up remove the other cases and toss them into a pan for cool down (I use a medium set of neeedle nose pliers to remove from heat). I can get about 35 45acp cases on each burner with some spacing. Repeat until all annealed. Let cool.
6) At this point if there is some flaking gently rub off by dumping in a towel and shaking. I do not clean and it hasn't hurt my dies.
7) Lube the cases. I use RCBS case lube and my regular lube pad.
8) Run base first into the 308 seat die (stem removed) using a 284-357 Lee bullet size die push rod all the way up or until the base is no smaller than .457". Use a rod through the seating stem hole to knock out the case.
9) Run the case into the 308 sizer die, decapping assemby removed, mouth first using the .457" push rod until the mouth is the desired width, I use around .330"
Knock out with a rod run through the top.
10) Size case in Lee .457" sizer die. It will come out about .459" That is fine and the shoulder of the bullet will be about .456"
11) Clean bullet jacket (BJ). Now, I use Muriatic acid to clean mine and some won't want to do that but I suggest some type of acid based cleaner (vinegar?) so the lead will bond with the bullet.
12) Rinse in baking soda and water, twice. Then rinse in water several times until water stays clear.
13) Dry. I put them in an aluminum (NOT STEEL) pan on stove top burner at low-med heat for about one hour. Or on towel outside during summer for two hours.
14) I have two Lee 20lb pots. One for WW and one for pure lead. I use only pure lead for cores. Heat pot on High (I keep mine near full) until HOT. Place dry BJs around the top ledge so they can heat up.
15) Screw in your smooth ended all thread smooth end down and put a Lyman SH button in the ram. (You will need your press not very far from your pot.) Place one of your cold BJs on the SH button and raise the ram unitl the BJ is touching the all thread. Adjust the all thread so the handle is only about halfway down. This will be used to pinch off excess lead and when you make contact it should be firm but not hard otherwise you will deform the bullet nose. Now that you have that locked in back to the pot.
16) I use the same medium needle nose pliers to handle the BJs while filling with lead. Take a,now hot BJ off the ledge and fill with lead to form a slight bulge of lead on the tip. The time it takes to shrink and still be pliable enough to pinch off varies on many factors; length of bullet, air temp, alloy, etc. So you will have to find out each time you do a batch of bullets but it's generally around 3 tpo 5 secs.
17) After the proper time place the bullet base on the SH button, let go, and raise the ram to contact the tip. You can lower the ram right away and then
place the bullet in a metal pan (which will get hot). Repeat. As you use up the BJs on one section, between screws, on top of the pot replace them before going on to the next section so they will always be hot when you come to them.
18) When you're done and they're cool use a sharp pocket knife to remove the flashing around the tip. Now some will have excess lead on the tip and you'll just have to trim it off with the knife. As you do more and more this will happen less as you learn the process.
19) At this point I moly coat in a tumbler.
20) After coating I run them through the 457 die again to help set the moly. You don't have to, I do.
21) You can now sort by weight (the variances will come down with practice).
22) Load and shoot.

I probally left something out or didn't explain something well, so ask if you need to.

I make bullets for the following rounds using this process: 9mm,357Sig,357mag,358Win,40S&W,10mm,44mag,45acp,45-70. I have also done 41mag though I don't have a gun to shoot them (269gr from 40S&W cases 300ct anybody want them for the cost of shipping?)

[chrisx1]

Some pics would be AWESOME - You did a very good job of describing it, but I would love to see some photos!

Chris

[DukeInFlorida]

So....

Since we have a thread running on the subject of swaging the brass with cold core installed, I would be specifically interested in the steps that you take and materials and dies that you use to do the .40 S&W bullets. Do you use 9mm cases for those? Looks like you are taking smaller cases, and bumping them up to size, and then filling with hot lead.

[Bwana]

All my bullets are reduced from their original size in their final form. The 40S&W and 10mm bullets are formed using shortened 40S&W cases.
As previously mentioned the use of cases to make bullets is not new. I first read about in the early 70s in a Handloader article about someone in southern Alaska using 30-06 cases to make bullets for his and other's 45 caliber rifles as there were no factory bullets to be had during WW2.
My spin on this is that you don't have to buy swage dies costing hundred(s) of dollars and can use reloading equipment that, for the most part, is off the shelf.
It is all about adapting and overcoming. Figure what you want and then back engineer to figure what you need to produce it. Examples of what I use:
9mm/357 bullets from 9mm cases- Lee 9mm steel taper crimp die, 223 Rem die set, 356/357 Lee size die. Lee .243 size die push rod.
44Mag bullets from 45acp/gap cases- 308 family die set, 6mm Rem die set, .427 Lee size die, 308 or 357 Lee push rod.
These are for cases not requiring shortening and trimmimg.
Catch some of the others in another post.

[Multigunner]

Excellent information Bwana, and a much more detailed description of the process than I've seen before.

One of the first uses of fired cases for homemade jacketed bullets was to to use fired .22 rf cases to fabricate .228 bullets for the .22 Savage Highpower and a few similar centerfire .22's that used the non standard .228 bore.
Also during WW2 owners of .22 centerfire rifles found that simple cast boolits did not allow the high performance loads they were used to, so a means of fabricating jacketed bullets was a must.
Owners of .30 rifles could at least use jacketed bullets, and even salvaged propellants from old stocks of Krag ammo condemned for age related defects, but for smaller bores where velocity had to make up for bullet weight the shortage of jacketed bullets inspired many substitutions.

[Outdoors]

I'd like to hear more of the process for 357/9mm boolits. Where does the taper die fit in?

[rbuck351]

I have a 41 mag and would love to have those 41 bullets if you haven't got rid of them yet. Let me know where to send postage if you still have them. Thanks rbuck
Also would like to know what die your using to shape the ogive on the 35cal 255 and 202 bullets.

[JKH]

Excellant thread! an good info for down the road, one never knows when an alternate method of fabricating useable ammunition will be necessary.

I first heard of this reading one of George Nonte's books, he and a pal in the army found a nice German sporter in 9x57 but had no bullets, they cut down .30 carbine brass and seated the carbine bullet all the way to the base (the brass was cut so that it stopped just short of the ogive), then they sized the amalgam of case and bullet through a hole they drilled and polished in a piece of plate steel, he stated accuracy was quite acceptable but I dont remember him saying if they used these self crafted "bullets" on any game.

I also vote for detailed step by step photo's! Of course that's easy for me to request as I am not doing the work ;^ )

Thanks for what you have shared, another neat project to try during the long NY winter (should be warm about June this year).

Jeff

[rbuck351]

You have really got me thinking now. Ten gallons of 38spl brass some lead and my 358Norma. Probably have to cut the rims off first. A 300gr at about 2600 should be real bear medicine. Those 41s at 269gr should make real bear busters at 1200/1300fps also. The amount of knowledge and inginuity on this forum is beyond amazing. Thank you sir.

[rbuck351]

I finally got out to my shooting place to try the 269gr 41s. (snow finally almost gone) Loading 19gr 2400 iI got right at 1200 fps. I shot at 50yds and they were grouping about 4" which is about as good as I can shoot with iron sights and a Ruger Blackhawk. Thank you for the bullets and more important for the idea. I can see some heavies for my 358Norma as a future project. Buck

[ETG]

Dang - I wish I could see the pictures :-( I would really like to use some of that berdan primed 308 for 458 and 50 cal.

[ETG]

I've seen the process before, in a very old American Rifleman journal.
If I find it again it has a few drawings of how this is acomplished and suggestions on how and why to do it.
From what I remember this was originally thought up to produce affordable tough jacketed ammo for older British double rifles in odd calibers, like .470 Nitro.

Since the French "Ball D" bullet was of solid bronze the brass cartridge case jackets are probably no more destructive to a bore than those would have been, or the steel jackets for that matter.

Actually brass is easier on a bore than copper. A lot of competition 50 cal projectiles are solid turned brass.