Electronic Scale accuracy?

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I have cause to ask if any of you have had occasion to observe "creep" or poor-repeats when using a good electronic scale for its intended purpose.

I have a good Lyman and a cheap Lee and they both exhibit poor repeat weights. This poor accuracy is so bad that I have "retired" both scales from reloading - they now serve only for inspecting bullets as I do not trust them to give reliable weights, especially for setting my measure when loading pistol cartridges. I'm firmly back to the balance-beam scale for all things critical.

Anyone else?

Good evening,
Forrest

[mike in co]

Gentlemen;

I have cause to ask if any of you have had occasion to observe "creep" or poor-repeats when using a good electronic scale for its intended purpose.

I have a good Lyman and a cheap Lee and they both exhibit poor repeat weights. This poor accuracy is so bad that I have "retired" both scales from reloading - they now serve only for inspecting bullets as I do not trust them to give reliable weights, especially for setting my measure when loading pistol cartridges. I'm firmly back to the balance-beam scale for all things critical.

Anyone else?

Good evening,
Forrest

i have mentioned this before, but the electronic scales sold by the reloading companies are basically equivilent of thier beam scales...plus or minus 0.1 at best.
these are find for reloading, not so good for ammo crafting /target ammo.
anything that is better than 0.1 is gonna cost bucks...my denver scales mx123 is plus or minus 0.02 with 0.03 sensitivity....and it cost....$325.....
i use the scale for a varity of my rifles.......iron sights get a beam scale typically, but my target rifles with highpower scopes get the mx123......

mike in co

[Xcaliber]

I like the ease of Electronis scales, but the balance beams are still hard to beat.
Have you checked the batteries. ? When batteries run low..they tend to get erratic
and give false readings. I'd check that before giving up on your Electronics.

[Rocky Raab]

They are more than accurate enough for any reloading task I can think of. A tenth of a grain is more than good enough for even the smallest pistol load.

[cbrick]

Several times I have checked my Dillon scale against my RCBS scale by pouring powder into one, getting the weight and then pouring it directly into the other. Time after time they match exactly to the tenth of a grain. Pretty impressive I'd say. If one is off they are both off exactly the same.

As a side note, both run on 110 (a transformer) and not batteries. Sounds logical that low batteries could throw things off . . . dunno.

Rick

[CWME]

I had a Lyman that drifted a few grains either way. Not exagerating. My RCBS is spot on and gets a lot of use.
I returned the Lyman.

[markinalpine]

A set of check weights is always a good investment for use with both electronic and balance beam scales. [smilie=s:
Mark :coffeecom

[FAsmus]

Very well fellows;

Here is how it looks to me -

When I'm doing an inspection of a run of bullets I intend for Match shooting I have seen the scale "hunt" after I zero it out as much as +/- 0.5 grains .. or way more than my tolerance for checking the bullets themselves.

I keep a "standard" bullet which weighs on the "mean" to check the scale whenever it starts to read the bullets I'm checking as "off" the standard I set for the run .. and .. sure enough it isn't the bullets that are off, but the sacle that has drifted off the zero setting I entered only a few minutes before.

This is the problem I find unacceptable for the instrument ~ the one which has destroyed my confidence in it for use in reloading anything critical at all.

Is this typical for battery powered scales? Or what?

Good evening,
Forrest

[ANeat]

If you have an electronic scale the best thing you can do is plug in into a wall outlet (hopefully it has that option) and leave it on all the time.

If one has been off for a while its best to turn it on and let it "warm up" for lack of a better word. And run it thru a calibration if that is an option.

I have an older PACT digital that is always spot on.

Any sudden changes in temp, or air movements can throw one off as well.

Dont go out into a cold shop, turn the heat on and expect a digital scale to hold rock steady. The reading will drift as the temp changes

[Railbuggy]

I bought a cheap electronic scale for $25 to check my Lee scale.The digi scale says 1.5gn+/- at 100 gns.It wont show tenths of a grain thou.My 8.5grains of Unique show 9 on the batt scale.

[xr650]

I have heard that flourescent lighting affects digital scales.
Any truth in this?

[felix]

Typically, yes! Industrial scales are shielded either by their circuit design, or by external mechanicals, and perhaps both. Try and use a household plug that routes directly to your house panel without any peripheral having any kind of coil or frequency converting circuitry on the circuit you use. ... felix

[Cherokee]

My PACT BBKII started giving me bad readings this week. It has worked fine for several years but it started giving me reading off by .5 to 1.5 gr (even the same charged weighed more than once was not the same) when compared to my Lyman blance beam. Usually they were .1 or .2 different. It went back to PACT yesterday for a warranty fix.

[xr650]

Typically, yes! Industrial scales are shielded either by their circuit design, or by external mechanicals, and perhaps both. Try and use a household plug that routes directly to your house panel without any peripheral having any kind of coil or frequency converting circuitry on the circuit you use. ... felix

So, it's the circuit that affects the scales?
If ran on only batteries there should be no affect?

[felix]

Don't know. It would depend, then, on the same criteria. I would think shielding would still be paramount, and if far enough away from motors and frequency lights (TV incl.), you'd MIGHT be OK. ... felix

[BruceB]

My PACT scale has been serving on my bench for over ten years. It's positioned only about 24" below a two-tube 8-foot-long fluorescent fixture. The light has no detectable effect on the scale. My "check weight" is the scale's own pan, which the scale reports as being 148.7 grains...month after month, year after year.

The scale is left "on" all the time, even though the ambient temperature in my shed can go from near-zero to plus-120, depending on time of year and whether or not I left the heat/AC operating.

I calibrate the scale when starting a session, and check the reading during the process whenever the impulse strikes (the scale pan, remember?). There is no obvious tendency to "wander", although stray air currents can cause temporary variations.

I am entirely content with the performance of this scale. As mentioned, accuracy within one-tenth of a grain is ample for any reloading purpose that interests me.

[lurch]

In my experience, to get the best out of the electronic scales there are a few things to pay attention to, all mentioned above, but summarized here:


The scale internals must be at temperature equilibrium
The power supply must be "clean" and constant
There must be no air currents in the vicinity of the scale
Calibrate the scale and check every so often.


If all of these are observed, the the performance of the scale should be very good. A little bit on the why's:

Temperature equilibrium. This will get more repeatability from measurements made a few minutes apart. All these scales use a strain gauge to determine the force applied to the scale. That measurement requires a precision voltage reference somewhere along the line. All electronic voltage references drift with changes in temperature. Some more, some less, but they all drift.

Clean constant power supply. There are two effects here. First is the internals will probably have a voltage regulator inside them somewhere, if not a discreet IC then integrated into one that does several functions. As the input voltage varies, the power dissipation (i.e. heat generation) of the internal regulator(s) will vary and the internal temperature will drift some. Batteries will droop in use and can contribute to this. Regulators integrated onto a multifunction IC will have more of an effect since they are an integral part of the silicon that is doing the work and have a much better thermal coupling to the "business" parts of the circuitry. Second, there is no such thing as perfect power supply rejection for things like current or voltage references. The varying supply will cause some shift in the voltage applied to the strain gauge measurement bridge and the reference voltage used to compare the output of the bridge to. This is a fairly second order effect and probably not the cause of much error, but it should be considered. Noise is a different animal and is unpredictable by its very nature. If the design of the scale is poor and/or there is considerable electronic noise about (GSM based cell phone and electronic ballasts are prime examples) then there can be issues.

Air currents. A grain of force is a very small amount and a tenth is even less. Any air current impinging on the measurement platform of the scale will through off the reading. Even breathing in the general direction will have an effect. I don't know why the manufacturers make the platforms with so much surface area, but they do. A smaller platform would reduce these types of errors. If it were reduced by half in diameter (that's still plenty big enough for reloading as far as I'm concerned) the air current error would be cut down by a factor of four.

Calibrate & check. Basically common sense... Make sure the other conditions are met first.

Another thing to take into consideration is that the resolution of the scale is only 0.1 grains on the display for most. If the scale reads 22.5 the real weight could be anywhere from 22.45 to 22.54 grains. The scale should in theory change the last digit just as the fractional grain crosses from 0.04 to 0.05 (in an ideal world anyway). If you trickle powder into the pan slowly and stop just as the last digit changes, you at least know you have just crossed a fairly well defined threshold and can get more consistent results if so inclined, assuming the items above are properly addressed. If the scale is hunting between two digits, it's a fairly safe bet the weight in the pan is darn close to it's decision threshold. Yes, it's a slow almost painful process, and the update rate of the scale display must be considered as you don't want to out run your information.

Do I go to such extremes? Rarely, but on occasion yes, depending on what I'm trying to accomplish. At a minimum, I make sure that there are no air currents and the scale has been sitting turned on a while running off a wall wart. I also check against a beam scale when first starting out. I'd use a beam scale exclusively if they were as easy to read as the digital display, but they aren't (at least mine isn't) and for 99% of what I do, the electronic scale is plenty accurate.

That's my take on it... YMMV.

[lurch]

Just thought to add:

Noise issues are mostly a function on how well the electronics of the scale (or any other device for that matter) are designed and executed. Better design - fewer problems in a given noise environment.

[FAsmus]

Very well folks ~ The information so far has addressed some interesting factors.

In particular to my setup it is impossible to leave the scale on full-time and yes, I do use battery power. Could this be the culprit? All I can do is test and see.

I know about temperature problems, air movement and checking the zero but florescent lighting? Felix you're a wise man but how in the world would that affect scale reading? ~ Pardon me; you already said you didn't know .. sounds mysterious.

I use the electronic scale pretty much only for the chore of weighing bullets these days because I don’t trust it for anything more critical. This is a very minor inconvenience to me since setting the measure with a beam scale is quick and easy anyway – saves having another electric gadget on the bench too.

Anyway, to get right down to as small a segment of the question as possible ~ that being why the scale “hunts” during a long session of bullet inspection by weight ~ is there another bullet caster out there who has seen this type of problem?

Good evening,
Forrest

[lurch]

I do notice considerable drift when I use battery power for my scale (Lyman) over an extended period of use and I attribute this to thermal drift. I can't absolutely prove it, but that's what makes the most sense to me. When I use the wall wart, it does eventually calm down once things get where they "want to be".

I would suspect you are seeing thermal issues inside the electronics since you don't leave the scale running for an extended period prior to measurements. I am assuming here you refer to "hunting" as getting different results for the same boolit weighed at different times, probably several minutes apart. Is that correct?

A possible scenario in generic terms for the fluorescent lighting causing problems MIGHT go something like this:

A fluorescent tube in operation is essentially an electric arc. It's not exactly the same kind or intensity that you get from a welder or a light switch, but an arc all the same. An electric arc is a source of broad spectrum electromagnetic noise or radio interference. The scale uses a analog to digital converter to convert a raw voltage from the strain gauge bridge (represents the weight of what is being weighed) into a number that can be displayed. That conversion relies on a precision reference voltage being compared to the output of the bridge. The radio interference from the lighting will "couple" with these circuits and induce random voltages in them that would not be there sans the interference from the lighting. If the radio interference is strong enough and if the scale design makes it susceptible enough, the A/D converter in the scale will not be able to distinguish what the real output from the bridge is and give somewhat randomly varying readings depending on the amount of interference it is actually seeing.

[Lead Fred]

My beam scales from the 60s, are not dependent on batteries, they dont change do to temperature, and I never have to warm them up for 45 minutes.

I had an RCBS electronic scale for about 6 months, gave it away and went back to my two beams

[cbrick]

I've heard that electronic scales should be warmed up (so to speak) and I left my Dillon on 24/7 for 4-5 years. Several weeks ago the display started going out. The scale worked (sort of) in that it weighed ok but the results couldn't be read properly. The horizontal top and the bottom lines of the display that make up the numbers went out so that 0.0 looked like 11.11, I called Dillon and they didn't sound at all surprised by this. A new Dillon scale is now something like $130.00 and it's out of warranty (1 year). They instead sold me a new one for $85.00 and once they received the old one they shipped the new one (and not before even though paid for). They also said that they don't repair them and neither does the factory, they scrap them. Ok, so the new Dillon is not left on any more unless it's to be used. (burned out LED's or the circuits that control them?)

Reading this thread I figured I better do some testing on both the Dillon and the RCBS scales. This morning I went into the shop and it was 42 degrees (pretty chilly for here), I turned on both scales and checked each with their own brass check weights, both were spot on. I then checked each with the check weights for the other, both were spot on. Next I turned on the gas furnace and waited for the shop to warm up and did the same tests again with the same results, spot on. I did all of this with the light from the ceiling vents only because I have just installed new fluorescent lighting in the shop consisting of a total of 10 three foot bulbs located throughout the shop. These fixtures have no ballasts, they are all electronic which is the reason I used these fixtures. Next I turned on the fluorescent lights, all of them and checked the scales again and again no change, both scales were spot on with their respective brass weight checks.

My shop is at the end of a 175 foot electric run that feeds directly into the breaker box, everything in the shop is fed off this single breaker box. The fluorescent lights are wired into the same circuits as the wall outlets that the scales are plugged into. Current is not limitless in the shop, I have a digital voltage meter plugged into an outlet at the loading bench, my Magma 40 pound pot drops the voltage from 118 to 110, the coffee pot is another 3 volts etc. The next scale test was with the Magma pot heating up, the coffee brewing, the furnace running and all fluorescent lights on. Voltage in the shop was now 103 and the scales were still spot on.

I don't know what I could test next, both scales seem to be both accurate and repeatable. Perhaps all this concern over electronic scales is much ado about nothing. On the other hand, I don't think I would use a $19.95 Harbor Freight special to weigh powder.

Rick

[felix]

I would obtain the scale having just one IC, and no other components, when compared with another having quite a few items on the circuit board. This would allow for better noise insulation. Perhaps all the scales today are getting to be made like this. However, whatever works, works. ... felix

[felix]

Forrest, electronic noise is everywhere and getting worse by the year. It is a miracle that home computers are as good as they are. Years ago you had to have one made with error correction logic between the various components on the board to be half-way fail safe. As the "chips" are getting smaller, and the logic therein larger, there is less coupling with the outside world. The killer is becoming heat, rather than noise. I can remember designing a board for a packaging machine that I had fellow engineers build to my spec, and I personally did the software for it. It took us six months to debug the board, all because of noise we could not find the source of. Finally, we called in a noise consultant, and within a week the problem was solved. It was all hardware modifications, routing mainly where the board (computer) was attached to the package machine itself. ... felix

[Trapshooter]

This is a pretty good discussion. I've designed a few strain gage weighing devices, and one issue that hasn't been discussed much is the software inside the "brain". It has to deal with "noise on the signal" from lots of sources, temperature, vibration, electrical interference, and actual changes in the weight of the "load" as when trickling powder. It also has to deal with permanent shifts due to mechanical causes such as mechanical shock or overloads outside the design limits.

Usually, the software is written to compensate for these variations but some programs work better than others. Being "from the industry", I use computers, but on good days I trust them as far as I can throw them, and on other days I trust them less. Even without trust, you can use them, if you understand how they might be "lying". Balances will lie if they aren't level, if the pivots are damaged or dirty, if they are subject to vibration, and some are sensitive to electric or magnetic fields just like the electronic scales.

I bought one of Midway's $30 scales primarily to sort castings. I ran a lot of checks to figure out how the scale worked, to sort out how the software handled different things, then I try to use the scale in the ways it works best. The Midway scale I have works best if it is level, and I suspect (but haven't tested) that it doesn't like rough handling of the scale, or the load just like a balance. For the price, I wouldn't expect that there is a lot of built in mechanical protection.

It works pretty well for step changes (set a bullet on the scale gently, lift it off gently or check weigh every fifth or tenth charge from a measure), but for trickling the last few grains of small rifle charges it takes a long time to determine the answer. I use an RCBS balance for that. The Midway unit doesn't seem to be bothered by a 4' shop light above the bench, but it doesn't like it if you bump the bench as you lift the load off the scale (gets confused about zero).

When accuracy or consistency is important with a scale or a balance, check the zero, a check weight near zero, and a check weight near the weight of the sample. Weigh the sample multiple times. If you get inconsistent or unexpected readings, cross check with another device, or review your process to see if you are the problem, or if you are using the scale for something it isn't good at.

The Midway scale was worth the price to me, it sped up the process of sorting castings, and works well enough for check weighing thrown charges, if you work with it and keep it honest.

Trapshooter

[deltaenterprizes]

My cell phone makes my Lyman electronic scale go crazy!

Great thread.

[340six]

Several times I have checked my Dillon scale against my RCBS scale by pouring powder into one, getting the weight and then pouring it directly into the other. Time after time they match exactly to the tenth of a grain. Pretty impressive I'd say. If one is off they are both off exactly the same.

As a side note, both run on 110 (a transformer) and not batteries. Sounds logical that low batteries could throw things off . . . dunno.

Rick

That is the same as I do.
The cold air will mess with the RCBS {pack} one i have though I put a pieace of plywood on the glass table and it fixed that.

[Lloyd Smale]

I have a lyman scale/dispensor and a pact scale and both are very accurate. I leave them on and calibrate them before each use. they may be off a .05 of a grain but who cares. Id about bet there isnt one of those 40 dollar ballance beams that a bit more accurate.

[Willbird]

Well the true accuracy kings (the ppc benchrest boys) do not even use WEIGHT for the most part when they work up a load, they use "clicks" on a culver type measure.

I have always used a balance beam scale, never really trusted the idea of a digital scale, I feel the same way about micrometers. I use other digital measuring tools but a mechanical micrometer I KNOW that it will not somehow develop an issue that causes it to not measure accurately if it checks OK on a standard.

if I were to use a digital scale I would probably build an enclosure like the old balance beams they used in the chem lab had, to isolate them from any air drafts.

[Lee]

Small enclosure, excellent idea!! Trapshooter said what I would say about "my" Midway scale also. I have a couple of them and one thing I DID notice is that it's best to always place the weight in the center of the scale pan, NOT near an edge or corner. If you develop a consistent routine with an e-scale, it will provide a fast, excellent convenience to your weighing chores. That said, the only cure for an "abused" one is to send it down range without hesitation. Salvaging $30 isn't worth an eye or a hand or a........

[dromia]

My Pact is consistent to is speccy +- 0.1 Gn. With regards to repeatable consistency with check weights its rarely off to +- 0.1 Gn.

Its as good as my beam scales, 5 RCBS, 2 Redding and 2 Hornady.

[FAsmus]

Lurch;

Yes, your interpretation of "hunting" is right-o

I plan on finding the 110v converter and using it from now on ~ it sounds like this will improve things a good deal right away.

All my inspection is done under incandescent lighting, so the florescent will not be a factor.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Felix;

Roger your post on electronic noise ~ I have no doubt at all about it.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Just one parting shot on this deal;

I have been using one of those $30 Midway electronic scales out in the casting shed to check bullets as they drop from the mold.

This additional procedure has been very instructive, allowing me to become exactly aware of any changes in the various temperatures we have to track in order to produce good bullets.

My cadence has to be pretty close, thus keeping mold temperature consistent but both have to governed by basic melt temperature and alloy mix.

I have found that there is a BIG difference in the way bullet weight is affected by alloy and mold temperature for example ~ the typical lead/tin/antimony mixes will go under-weight if things get too hot. Straight lead/tin alloys go the other way - too hot will run over-weight.

Things do get challenging when I use my (unheated) shed at outside temperatures of 20 degrees and less; the Midway scale will not work at all at anything less than 25 so I warm it up over the turkey-cooker casting furness .. The battery I warm up in my pocket.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[Gee_Wizz01]

Another source of "noise" is your computer! I highly recommend keeping it a good distance from your electronic scale.

G

[mike in co]

Well the true accuracy kings (the ppc benchrest boys) do not even use WEIGHT for the most part when they work up a load, they use "clicks" on a culver type measure.

I have always used a balance beam scale, never really trusted the idea of a digital scale, I feel the same way about micrometers. I use other digital measuring tools but a mechanical micrometer I KNOW that it will not somehow develop an issue that causes it to not measure accurately if it checks OK on a standard.

if I were to use a digital scale I would probably build an enclosure like the old balance beams they used in the chem lab had, to isolate them from any air drafts.


not so young man.........
yes most still throw charges, but they have been shown the error of thier weighs(lol).
vv n133 thru a best powder measure will throw plus or minus 0.2...when checked with a lab scale. WHILE SOME OF THEM STILL CLAIM 0.1...they are measuring on +/-0.1 scales so thier claim is invalid (that is a 0.2 spread).
more and more guys are going to electronic scales....preloading( mainly score guys) or portable scales.

inspite of lloyds comment of 0.05...it aint so. unless you have a scale that is 0.02, 0.01 with a sensitivity of .03 or less...you cannot claim a scale is 0.05 period.

we are talking lab electronic scales that are SENSITIVE !

ya'all have a good day....

mike in co

[Lee]

Unless you're one of the anal BR boys, a 0.1 or 0.2 will not make a whit of difference to Bambi or the sillouhette(sp?). I ain't had a 'hog yet that tole me that my charge weight was off so as much to whack him below point of aim in the lower cerebellum. Dead is dead.
No disrespect for the BR boys. I 'spect it's a matter of time till those boys have a "particle counter" to dispense their charges, flake by flake.
It's a miracle our military boys could hit a barn w/o all this "scientifical teknology"
I've said enough now.........

[CWME]

I use an APC battery backup to plug my RCBS scale into. The APCs are small battery backups used for computers. They plug into the wall and give out a steady stream of electricity. Of course if the power goes out I can still use the scale=) Not the primary function of course...

The APC removes any slight variations or interferance with the power supply.

[ELFEGO BACA]

I have purchased two 'cheap' electronic scales the last couple of years. The one i use now does not operate very well in my shop with a temp of 55 degrees. Some times it agrees with my RCBS balance beam scale sometimes not.

[Lloyd Smale]

i guess i made a mistake i thought that thats what they were advertised too but i went back and looked and the pact site says there guranteed to be within .1

[mike in co]

i guess i made a mistake i thought that thats what they were advertised too but i went back and looked and the pact site says there guranteed to be within .1

thanks lloyd......
and you are right hunting and silly wet..it really does not matter till at a real long distance. i do shoot br, so a lab scale was added and now used for lots of things.

mike in co

[Shiloh]

I use a jewels scale and convert. Mine is accurate to better than 1/100th of a carat.

Shiloh

[lurch]

I use an APC battery backup to plug my RCBS scale into. The APCs are small battery backups used for computers. They plug into the wall and give out a steady stream of electricity. Of course if the power goes out I can still use the scale=) Not the primary function of course...

The APC removes any slight variations or interferance with the power supply.

Kind of a nit-pick, but unless that's very high end UPS (like you might see in a data center, not what you get at Best Buy, Wally World etc.), it doesn't regulate the AC voltage coming out of it. It will provide surge protection and some noise filtering from the incoming AC line though, which is certainly beneficial if you have problems with those things.

[Lloyd Smale]

i guess i still dont understand why .10 accuracy isnt enough for anything. Some benchrest competitors throw there charge instead of weight it and they cant be getting near that accuracy. I dont shoot silouette but do do a fair amount of long range shooting and in my expience it would make about as much differnce as a bullet weight one grain more or less which is nothing. to me the convience very much outwieghts any little idiosyncracys they may have. Like i said i have two a lyman and a pact and constantly check and compare both and there both for the most part dead nuts and not one bit less accurate then the rcbs and dillon balance beams i have. Another thing to keep in mind is although they advertise them as being within .10 id about bet they for the most part do better then that or people would be sending them back for repair all the time.

[cbrick]

A tenth of one grain is plenty close enough for me. The only exception I could think of would be if ya were loading 0.4 gr of some fast powder into a tiny case, then 0.1 gr variation would be 25%+ variation. None of my loading is even remotely close to anything like that. One of my favorite CB rifle loads uses 19.0 gr powder, at plus 0.1 gr or minus 0.1 gr for a 0.2 gr variation, that's 0.038% variation. I'll happily live with that.

I don't weigh boolits for match shooting and I do shoot handgun silhouette to 200 meters. I do weigh 8-10 from each batch cast mostly to compare the alloy. If my revolver boolits that weigh 188 gr as cast suddenly start casting at 182 gr or 195 (as an example) something in the alloy changed.

Most of my revolver boolits within a given casting session will be plus or minus about 0.4 gr and most fall within that range, that's plus or minus 0.8 gr and that's less than 0.94% variation in boolit weight. I doubt any of my guns could shoot well enough to see a difference in that and I know for a fact that I cannot shoot well enough to see this difference.

There are 7,000 grains in a pound and a scale that is sensitive enough to weigh to one tenth of one grain is plenty sensitive. Consistency is the key, an object that weighs X today should weigh X next week plus or minus 0.1 gr. That's why most decent scales include those brass weight checks and why the scale should be calibrated with the weights that came with the scale.

Rick

[mike in co]

i guess i still dont understand why .10 accuracy isnt enough for anything. Some benchrest competitors throw there charge instead of weight it and they cant be getting near that accuracy. I dont shoot silouette but do do a fair amount of long range shooting and in my expience it would make about as much differnce as a bullet weight one grain more or less which is nothing. to me the convience very much outwieghts any little idiosyncracys they may have. Like i said i have two a lyman and a pact and constantly check and compare both and there both for the most part dead nuts and not one bit less accurate then the rcbs and dillon balance beams i have. Another thing to keep in mind is although they advertise them as being within .10 id about bet they for the most part do better then that or people would be sending them back for repair all the time.

br shooters ahve been doing great with thrown charges. they typically adjust for the conditions at the range...and as the day changes...humidity and temp.
the pronblem they have bee show is simple...the harrells will not throw a consistant plus or minus 0.1 of n133..the br powder of choice.( for reference the oem 8202 will THROW at plus or minus 0.05, the new imr 8292 with throw plus or minus 0.09...that is twice as good as n133.)
so inspite of how good they are, they have been shown they can be better.
some shooters are lemming..just follow what is currently being done; some people are open minded and have been looking at this issue for a while. over a year ago...maybe more, one guy has been weighing charges into vials and taking those to the range and adjusting his load by hanging to what ever vial is needed ,up or down.

next to no one has a scale they can check them on, so seldom does one get sent back for not being =+/- .01( again that is a 0.2 swing). rememeber to check .1 scale you need one "finer" one,02 or so.
you are right most don't know/dont'care...its only in the ultimate accuracy that it counts.
remember, that if you load 5 loads of 5 each, and they are 0.3 apart.....some of group 2 can be within .1 of the group on either side.....

but br has got to the point that all things must be looked at, and throwing powder has a large error built in..so it is being looked at....what next ?? who knows.

[redneck1]

i guess ill throw my .02 in the ring i bought a $39 jewelers scale from a jewelry store it wieghs in grns carrots and grams is within 1/10 of a grain everytime of my beam scales now that being said my personal exp has been my most accurate loads have been loading by volume not weight i use dippers and try my best to dip the same everytime .. checking weight every 10 or so loads im not the best shot in the world and doubt im even a good shot so take what i say with a few lbs of salt

[imashooter2]

My PACT scale has been serving on my bench for over ten years. It's positioned only about 24" below a two-tube 8-foot-long fluorescent fixture. The light has no detectable effect on the scale. My "check weight" is the scale's own pan, which the scale reports as being 148.7 grains...month after month, year after year.

The scale is left "on" all the time, even though the ambient temperature in my shed can go from near-zero to plus-120, depending on time of year and whether or not I left the heat/AC operating.

I calibrate the scale when starting a session, and check the reading during the process whenever the impulse strikes (the scale pan, remember?). There is no obvious tendency to "wander", although stray air currents can cause temporary variations.

I am entirely content with the performance of this scale. As mentioned, accuracy within one-tenth of a grain is ample for any reloading purpose that interests me.

Saved me a lot of typing. However my fluorescent fixture is only 4 foot long and my pan weighs 128.1 grains.

[markshere2]

Very well fellows;

I keep a "standard" bullet which weighs on the "mean" to check the scale whenever it starts to read the bullets I'm checking as "off" the standard I set for the run .. and .. sure enough it isn't the bullets that are off, but the sacle that has drifted off the zero setting I entered only a few minutes before.

Is this typical for battery powered scales? Or what?

Good evening,
Forrest

That's a sign the batteries are weak.

My "cheap" battery scales eat the lithium coin batteries at an alarming rate.
I have taken to removing the batteries when not in use.

I plan to replace the batteries with a "wall wart" when i get a round tuit.

YMMV

Mark

[jr545]

I'm going to try what afew here have suggested and plug my PACT in and let it set on the bench on all the time to see if it helps.
My reloading room(mancave) is a corner of the barn I enclosed and temps run from below freezing to over 100* in the summer.

I purchased a used PACT automated powder throw(no idea the real name or model) several years ago for loading my range fodder. The idea was to speed up my plinking rounds that I shot every so often rather than invest in caliber change kits for the Dillon.

The auto throw was a lesson in frustration for me. I checked all weights thrown with my 10-10 after the device did it's thing and weights were all over the place. In reality I could throw 2-1 and trickle up faster than this thing worked.
I wrote the thing off and it's been sitting on the shelf ever since. Maybe I'll give the scale another try.

[Willbird]

The little glass vials to put pre measured charges in is an OLD idea, some folks did that like 20 years or more.

weighing powder to the .01 grains is kind of silly when one case may have .1 more residue inside it than the next case does.

Anybody that is wasting their time with a FACTORY barrel of any kind can just stop thinking that less than .1 grain accuracy is going to anything for them.

Bill

[mike in co]

The little glass vials to put pre measured charges in is an OLD idea, some folks did that like 20 years or more.

weighing powder to the .01 grains is kind of silly when one case may have .1 more residue inside it than the next case does.

Anybody that is wasting their time with a FACTORY barrel of any kind can just stop thinking that less than .1 grain accuracy is going to anything for them.

Bill


its not about 0.01( at this point), ita about a 0.2 spread in a load someone thought was 25.5 next to how 25.8 load that was not.
and you are probably right about a factory bbl, but not all rifles are the same....

most scopes could not tell the diff in a .1 variation......nor most shooters....


mike in co

[Lloyd Smale]

my honest opinion is some guys are hard to change. I remember my dad telling me that fuel injection in cars was just a gimic and it would pass. He said nothing would replace the accuracy of a tuned carberator. How many faught home computers? My dad and ma hardly know how to turn on a tv and theyve got one know. Get with it guys. These electronic scales are accurate and much eaiser and quicker to use then a mechanical. Anything that makes my load faster but just as good gives me more time to shoot.

[winelover]

[QUOTE=Lloyd Smale;798871. Get with it guys. These electronic scales are accurate and much eaiser and quicker to use then a mechanical. Anything that makes my load faster but just as good gives me more time to shoot.[/QUOTE]

AMEN---Couldn't live without my RCBS Chargemaster Combo. Allows me to weigh each charge and seat a boolit in about the same time I can throw and seat.[smilie=p:
I periodically check it against a RCBS 5-10 balance beam and find it spot on.

Winelover

[MT Gianni]

My Lyman scale /dispenser burned out the transformer the first month it was plugged in. I replaced it and turn it on to let it warm up the 30 minutes recommended for powder. I by-pass that feature to weigh boolits.
Cell phone throws it off as does a computer in the next room. Mine hunts a zero occasionally but when it is zero'ed and stable it is the same as my check weights. For those who don't have them use a bullet and a dime, write down what they weigh and use the same ones every time.

[Willbird]

Different people get different accuracy with a powder thrower too. I read about one BR shooter that had every member of the family throw charges, then he weighed them, his daughter hands down threw the most accurate charges.

Maybe we should make powder throwing an olympic sport :-).

I have heard of doing studies with measuring tools where they have a group of people all measure the same set of masters, and record their measurements, then compare the results.

I remember one dufus I worked with was surface grinding dividing head plates, about 6" dia and .250 thick, made of cast iron, well he gave me some he just ground, and they checked .262 or so. I said "huh...lemme see your micrometer"....he handed it to me, a non friction not ratchet starrett mike, good mike......I check zero after cleaning the faces with a slip of paper.....right on.

I hand him the mike back, and he slips it over a plate, runs it down to touch, and cranks the thing around as tight as he can get it and proclaims "see, dead on at .250"

Bill

[FAsmus]

markshere;


No sir, it can't be the batterys, really, since the same thing happens with fresh batteries out of the package.

Good afternoon,
Forrest