Hot .30-30 loads

[Gray Fox]

I know this is a cast boolit forum, but I know some of you folks have done a lot of experimenting, so here goes. I've got two nearly new .30-30s, one Win 94 and one Marlin 336, and a couple hundred pieces of new brass. What I'd like to do is come up with a load approximating what Hornady is claiming to get from their new plastic tip rounds. I've looked at the Hornady site and found their load data for the 160 grain bullet, but it tops out at 2,000 fps. I'd like to think something better is possible. I'd like to load a 150 grain spitzer to be used in a "one in the chamber and one in the magazine" hunting mode. The new Hornady bullet is a boat tail, so I suppose a 150 grain spitzer boat tail would be the way to go to try to make this work. Any suggestions? Thanks for tolerating my blasphemous thoughts.

[MT Gianni]

I believe they are using a non canister powder. I would try another cartridge if I needed that speed.

[izzyjoe]

you might want to check but that hornady le is movin' round about 2400 fs. and you cant get ner that close. i dont know what powder they use,but it makes some speed. all i can say is with the 30-30 faster don't matter that much, but a good 170gr. whatever the boolit movin @2000 seem to make meat fer me. lol.:-P

[MtGun44]

You will gain little or nothing in trajectory or killing power at the risk of damaging the
rifle or yourself. Gianni is right - if you need more velocity, you need a different caliber.

I will guarantee you that a deer will not notice any difference if you hit it at 2000 or 2200 fps.
Either will kill decisively if the bullet is placed properly. The trajectory difference will be
less than 1/2" at 100 yds, nobody can detect that difference and gain any real world
benefit from such a small incriment in velocity. Most of the potential trajectory gain
is at 250 yds and comes primarily from the better ballistic coefficient of a pointed bullet
rather than large increases in velocity.

Hornady has stated that conventional powders cannot reach their velocities with safe
pressures. They have developed a new powder technology, what you are attempting
is not safe. You need a .300 Savage or .308 Winchester if you just must have the
higher velocity.

Bill

[KYCaster]

A guy who worked for a friend of mine did the same thing years ago...he said the factory FP 30-30 loads were too wimpy.

I asked him how that worked out for him. He said it worked great, but he had to find some decent brass 'cause the garbage that Win and Rem made would seperate on the second firing.

I asked him where he found a Win '94 chambered in 308. He looked at me kinka funny for a couple of seconds and said, "It aint a 308, it's a 30-30." I don't think he got it....haven't seen him in years.

Jerry

[Bullshop]

How about reaming to 30/30 AI? Ackley said the AI version eliminated much of the bolt thrust so should do well to eliminate stretching with hot loads.
I think I remember reading that he removed the breach bolt from a Win 94 and fired a round in the AI chamber and it held. That would sure be proof of eliminating back thrust.
BIC/BS

[357maximum]

You could just buy a 30/06:groner:

[Multigunner]

How about reaming to 30/30 AI? Ackley said the AI version eliminated much of the bolt thrust so should do well to eliminate stretching with hot loads.
I think I remember reading that he removed the breach bolt from a Win 94 and fired a round in the AI chamber and it held. That would sure be proof of eliminating back thrust.
BIC/BS

I've seen this quoted in a great many variations.
Closest to the original claim being a .32 Winchester Special with the locking slides left out, only the lever itself acting to hold the bolt closed.
Near as I can tell all he proved was that the primer would blow out before the case stretched, not suprizing.

The .307 cartridge was meant to give .308 ballistics from a lever action, it hasn't shown much promise from what I hear. Loads still have to remain within the limitations of the action. The extra capacity might allow more velocity, at least from a longer barrel.

From what I've read on handloading for the .358, 375, and .307, once case diameter becomes only a hair larger than the slim .30-30 cases bolt thrust increases and the brass is put at some sort of a mechanical disadvantage.
To prevent stretching you'd have to use a stronger brass, but once you did so the case would begin impacting the breechface full force rather than cushioning the blow by gripping the chamber wall.

Protusion of the Primer will slightly cushion the impact, but channels that pressure to the small area around the firing pin opening. Its common to find older rifles with the breechface caved in around the firing pin hole.

[Lead Fred]

Ive loaded the FTX 160gr with Ball-C Lot 2, @2280ish. I used them in both the Winnie 94 and Marlin, and wasnt happy with either groupings .

Im now loading up a batch with reloader 7 and going to push them out about 2k-2100fps and see if that stabilizes them.

[Tony65x55]

The way I see it you have two issues. Not only can you not safely achieve those velocities with conventional powders, you also have to find a 150 gr spitzer that a) will expand at those velocities and b) is short enough to work through the '94 action.

I tried a similar experiment many years ago and found what I was looking for in the 130 gr Hornady Single Shot Pistol bullet. With 130 gr I could attain a substantial increase in velocity, somewhat over 2500fps, and the pistol bullet would expand decently.

It was very accurate and although I got it to work in the '94, it never really fed worth a damn. You had to fiddle the second cartridge in. But it did work. After playing around with it for a season I decided it didn't have much utility in the areas I hunt and I went back to my cast boolits. It would be exceptional in the Rem 788 .30-30.

[7of7]

I use 130 grain bullets in mine, I have loaded 150 grain SP in however, the max velocity would be 2300. going to the other end at 110 grain pistol HP, ended up around 2600 fps, and functioned well. Of course, it was seated so that the OAL would be correct....

[Baron von Trollwhack]

There are a few things to consider IMHO.

First, ammo companies and their flacks universally hype velocity. Take that with a grain of salt.

Then, non cannister powder always comes up. What is it? Magic? No It's stuff like Data 68, AA 2230-c, etc. One of the best was AA 2200. There is a lot of powder available now and most 30-30 cases have room for more of a different type than what is loaded. A Full case of something a leetle slower is probably where to go.

Recent throating has been shorter, reducing useful OAL, like the Swiss rifles. Older Marlins And Winnies accept the same bullets loaded longer. Sometimes its 2 grains worth more depending on your particular mechanism.

Some folks ought to re-read Ackley for sure.

A great many chambers are really just not well done. That's a place to start when seeking to shoot faster. Some factory chambers make you want to scream they are so poor. How about the very short headspace new brass, like a .303 in a wornout combat chamber ?

Quite a few are using Barnes 130s in 308 for deer with good results. What if you flatted the nose to 30-30 standards and then loaded them to max? What if you swaged 3/4 jackets and filled them with a hard alloy at 110 grains total? I filed Hornady red tips off to use in a 218 lever with great results. What about ballistic tops flatted wirh a dab of gummy on the nose?

Just sometning dooable as a start. BvT

[GabbyM]

Take a look at the Hodgdon data. BL-C2 will get you above 2,300fps. They list 2,358fps with the Sierra bullet but please do reduce that charge 10% to start and do not assume you can use a different bullet with the same max charge. Lyman reloading manual shows the same powder under a Hornady 150 gr RN at .6 gr less powder weight and only 2292 fps plus running 3,000CUP higher listed pressure. Just to give you an idea of variables. Any pointed bullet will have more weight in the bullet body consuming more case capacity than a heavy nosed flat point of the same weight. So right their you're down in muzzle velocity. This explains the anemic velocity Hornady list for their tipped bullet in reloading data.

If you wait a year you'll see data for the new magic powders and if you're lucky stores may even have it on shelves. Alliant already list their Power Pro series powders in their data books but I've never seen it for sale. You can bet if you go to the risk and expense of wildcatting some cobbled up load the new powder will hit the shelves then you're high risk poor feeding case eating load will be obsolete. While you're waiting for the new magic powder just get some BL-C2 and a box of those Sierra bullets and have fun. Better yet get some boolits. Re size your fire formed brass just enough to chamber easy then you'll have a tad more capacity for your supper hot loads.

You're not gong to have much luck stuffing a spire point in a tube magazine as it will blunt the bullet point. Nosler BT may hold up and they are only 60 cents each.

In the end you may be happier buying one of the 300 dollar Marlin or Savage bolt guns in 7mm-08 and selling your 30-30.

[felix]

You can max out 30-30 loads with 748. That powder would be the only canister grade to do so. BLCs, 335s vary too much for production runs using different lots. I am not entirely certain, but various non-speced runs of 748 are BLCs/335s. ... felix

[jameslovesjammie]

If I remember right, the powder they are using the the same powder they are using in the .308 and .338 Marlin Express. It isn't a normal powder, but a blend of two different powders. Same as what is being used in the new Hornady Superformance ammo.

[atr]

my dad had an expression,,,"you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear"...
a 30-30 is just that....a 30-30.....its not a high velocity cartridge,,,especially with cast boolits.....you want a good deer/ hunting load?....just stick with 170 boolit and about 1800 fps,,,it will do the trick every time

[Slow Elk 45/70]

If you Must Have that kind of velocity from your 30/30.......I would use J bullets and forget cast....Just my humble opinion [smilie=b:

[corvette8n]

I used to think that I needed the fastest I could get out of my 30-30 when I first got into guns and reloading. After reading about ballistics and shooting and seeing what hits targets or kills animals you'll find out that what is in most reloading manuals works. The most important factor with cast(or any bullet for that matter) is ta da "bullet placement". Whether its the target or game it where you put it that counts. I did have a buddy tell me once he shot a cow in Nam with a bazoka, his "co" made him pay the farmer for the cow, wasn't anthing left of the cow.

[muleequestrian]

I used to think that I needed the fastest I could get out of my 30-30 when I first got into guns and reloading.

I have to agree on this one. I learned that the fastest speed ain't always the most accurate either. I still shoot my .30-30 a lot, but bought a '95 Winny in .30-06 for the speed factor.

[mroliver77]

Search out some Paco Kelly articles on 30-30. Better yet, buy his book on leverguns. I like his outlook. He does not load "hot" loads. Only loads to the guns potential. There are times I want every bit of power and "flat" trajectory I can SAFELY wring out of a certain rifle.
Jay

[jimkim]

Search out some Paco Kelly articles on 30-30. Better yet, buy his book on leverguns. I like his outlook. He does not load "hot" loads. Only loads to the guns potential. There are times I want every bit of power and "flat" trajectory I can SAFELY wring out of a certain rifle.
Jay

I second the suggestion. Keep in mind you work these loads up just like you would any other. At the first sign of pressure back off.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3030varmint.htm

[jlchucker]

my dad had an expression,,,"you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear"...
a 30-30 is just that....a 30-30.....its not a high velocity cartridge,,,especially with cast boolits.....you want a good deer/ hunting load?....just stick with 170 boolit and about 1800 fps,,,it will do the trick every time

Yup! If higher velocity pulls your chain, then buy yourself a 30-06, or maybe a .308. But I doubt like h*ll that a 170 grain boolit out of a 30-30 at 1700-1800 fps is going to bounce off any deer, except in the minds of some gunmag writers and those that religiously believe them.

[izzyjoe]

gunmags[smilie=f: well if all falls at least you got something to wipe you'r tale with :-( never mind them are them slick pages.

[NHlever]

These days my lightweight .308 Win has become my "Hot" 30-30, and my 30-06 has become my warm .308. Brass lasts longer, and I have no worries about pushing the limit. The new .308 MX is a possibility too. I've found mild, and very accurate loads that always seem to do the job at any reasonable range. If you look at the ballistics tables you will find that it takes a LOT of velocity to make much difference, and a LOT of BC to show up much before 200-250 yards. Much beyond that, and it becomes game shooting, and not game hunting anyway.

[rickster]

In working with the various cartridges of 30-30 heritage, I have come to realize that the limitation on these cartridges is the thickness (thin-ness) of the case wall at the web. If you cut cases in half lengthwise and compare the 30-30, 300 Sav, 308 and 30-06 you will see that the 30-30 is relatively thin. So, the pressure needs to be kept down to the levels shown in the manuals. Since I have not dissected a Hornady cartridge, I would be curious to know if their brass is any thicker.

Quickload has the ability to compare powder performance in a given cartridge.
According to Quickload, IMR 3031, loaded to textbook levels, is still the king.

And I too am a proponent of the maxim that says…..If you need more power, get a bigger cartridge.

[helice]

Gray Fox,

I've got a buddy who shoots a 340 Savage Bolt action in 30-30. He tried the spire pointed stuff in it and found that the pointy stuff is too hard for that crtg. He couldn't get the 30-30 going fast enough for the bullet to expand. It penciled in -- and penciled out with a miniscule wound cavity. Don't think you'd be too happy with the pointy stuff. Those old timers knew what they were doing when they built wide flat nosed soft lead alloy boolits and pushed them to 2000foot seconds. They work fine. Helice

[shooting on a shoestring]

I've chrono'd a few factory rounds from other guys at the range. They are all suprised at the lower than advertised velocity and most think my Oelher 35P must be wrong.

Funny, though they usually doubt my higher than expected velocities for my cast loads over the same chrono.

Sure, I've run my 30/30 up to a little over too much pressure and saw the other side of 2200, but I dodn't load that anymore. I run mine at 1800 and am much happier with the results.

So Gray Fox, go ahead and work up some hot loads. You might like what you get. Afterall every one has there own ideas of music and shooting. Its part of what makes handloading fun and interesting. So, by all means load some pointy boolits and see if they work for you. They might. And as for a pushing the gas pedal, just watch your pressures and stop before you get dangerous. You just might get where you want to go. And yep, I agree 748 just might do it for you.

[Multigunner]

If a flattened trajectory is the main concern, perhaps a cast zinc alloy bullet would serve the purpose.

A zinc alloy bullet weighs in at 60% of what a lead bullet cast from the same mold would weigh. Bearing surfaces remain the same, but much higher velocities are possible without raising pressures.

A solid bronze bullet would also allow higher velocities.
The bearing surfaces and bulk of the bullet remain the same only the weight is lessened.
Wounding ability would be similar though with less expansion. The lighter bullet being more subject to dumping its energy in the flesh, but being harder more likely to cut through heavy bone.

[w30wcf]

Dissected Hornady Leverevolution 160 gr. amunition revealed a ball type powder in 35.5-36 gr. charges. It is not a blend of 2 different powders as I have seen mentioned.
Current Hodgdon data for 748 and CURRENT PRODUCTION BLC-2 comes close to the 2,400 f.p.s. ballistics in my rifle (26" barrel).

w30wcf

[Hiaboo]

Don't forget there's sabots for .223 which will go about 3,000fps but not what you're looking for in terms of bullet weight it seems.

[O.S.O.K.]

How about reaming to 30/30 AI? Ackley said the AI version eliminated much of the bolt thrust so should do well to eliminate stretching with hot loads.
I think I remember reading that he removed the breach bolt from a Win 94 and fired a round in the AI chamber and it held. That would sure be proof of eliminating back thrust.
BIC/BS

I stopped reading the replies at this one because it was what was on my mind too. Only I was thinking that this would allow you to get the velocity you want (+) at the standard pressure levels of the 30-30 - without having to goose the loads at all.

I've got a 94 and a Marlin 336 that I reemed to AI. Its a pretty easy procedure. The hardest part for you with the 94 will be the barrel removal.

Buy the reamer, use it once and sell it for 3/4 of the new cost - I used mine twice and sold my reamer for 1/2 of the new cost - only ran me $25/each that way.

[roverboy]

A friend of mine wanted me to load up some for him and load a little hot. I carefully worked up to 37.5 gr. of Win. 748 with a Fed 210 primer and Sierra 150 gr. FP. His .30-30 is a Model 94. It worked ok and we had no pressure signs. It kicked some but shot ok. He ended up killing a 8 point buck with it that next season. You talked about using pointed buliets. In a lever action you will run into o.a.l. problems unless you seat the bullets kinda deep. Helice said his friend had expansion problems. That will probably be a problem because most 150 gr. on up are designed for higher velocity. You might try 125 gr. They will probably be ok at the velocities you'll get. Just keep your loads at a length that they'll function in your action.

[Marlin Junky]

How fast do you want to go?

With a long throat and the right boolit (LBT LFN) you can approach .300 Savage loads. I use Winchester 32-40 cases trimmed to 2.09-2.10" (I don't know if this is too long for a modern 336) that hold near 48 grains of water. Winchester 30-30 cases hold about 45 grains. I have an LBT-LFN mold that cast boolits weighing 180 grains checked when cast of 50-50. These boolits HT'd at 485F for one hour and quenched in ice water produce a hardness of BHN 30 in one-two weeks. Then I stand them in a pan of water up to the beginning of the ogive and apply a propane torch to them for about 7 seconds (until I get a golden-brown nose... not me, the boolits :bigsmyl2:). Using this method I end up with a BHN 30 shank and a BHN 10-11 nose (.180" meplat). My "factory superior load" from the 2.6" long cartridges (for the time being because I need to check out a couple slightly slower powders) is 35-36 grains of DP-74 (I bought a lot of this stuff years ago). My velocity from the 24" barrel of an old 336A is 2400 fps.... YMMV. Next week I'm going to try out 37.0 grains of H-380. If that works out I'll try about 37.5-38.0 grains of H-380 because that'll be just about equal to a 100% density load. BTW, 36 grains of DP-74 is a bit too hot for summer time in the sun-belt. Shooting this load averages over 2400 fps during the summer but FL sizing is required after every shot.

MJ

[w30wcf]

MJ,
Interesting post. About 15 years ago, I pulled the bullets from a box of John Wayne Commemorative .32-40 cartridges and resized and trimmed them for my 336A. I found that the 2.09" length was just perfect for that rifle.

Regarding the Hornady Leverevolution, the 2400 f.p.s. claimed velocity would have been taken in a 24"-26" barrel. It will do that in my '94 Centennial Winchester rifle (26"). That is about the only .30-30 I will occasionally shoot J bullets in.

Last year I tested the powder from the Hornady ammunition against BLC2 and 748 in the same charge weight under a 160 gr. cast bullet in the '94 Centennial.
Cases & primers were Winchester. Here are the results:
Hornady - 2,448 f.p.s.
BLC-2 - 2,457 f.p.s.
748 - 2,348 f.p.s.
Cast bullets run about 50 f.p.s. faster than Jacketed

w30wcf

[felix]

A canister (for retail sale) powder will seldom, if ever, be faster than spec. Hopefully, the loading labs will get the fastest, on spec, powder to use for their loading data books. That data you furnished above seems absolutely correct. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,
Interesting post. About 15 years ago, I pulled the bullets from a box of John Wayne Commemorative .32-40 cartridges and resized and trimmed them for my 336A. I found that the 2.09" length was just perfect for that rifle.

Yup, pretty cool, huh? :drinks:


Regarding the Hornady Leverevolution, the 2400 f.p.s. claimed velocity would have been taken in a 24"-26" barrel. It will do that in my '94 Centennial Winchester rifle (26"). That is about the only .30-30 I will occasionally shoot J bullets in.

Last year I tested the powder from the Hornady ammunition against BLC2 and 748 in the same charge weight under a 160 gr. cast bullet in the '94 Centennial.
Cases & primers were Winchester. Here are the results:
Hornady - 2,448 f.p.s.
BLC-2 - 2,457 f.p.s.
748 - 2,348 f.p.s.
Cast bullets run about 50 f.p.s. faster than Jacketed

w30wcf

Again, pretty cool from the little old 30-30 case. John, next time try a little more lead and a little slower powder.

Regards,
MJ

P.S. If I ever need buy a new 336, I'm going to need a competent gunsmith that'll be able to reproduce my 60 year old chamber!

[MtGun44]

ELIMINATE BOLT THRUST !?? YIKES!

Absolutely impossible. You have something like 30000 pounds per square inch
or more inside the case. It pushes in all directions. The inside of the case has
maybe 1/5th of a square inch or something like that. 1/5th of 30,000 is 6000 pounds.
What is supporting this 6000 pounds if no breechblock??? What would even
keep the primer in place if you somehow magically held the brass in place?

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

Gray Fox

I also concur that a read of Paco Kelly's 30-30 articles is in order if you want to load J bullets to such. I have been laoding them to such in my M94 AEs for some time. However my M94AE has a 24" barrel so my velocities are somewhat higher than what you will get with a 20" barrel. My M94 Carbine is an older one made in the early '60s and I do not shoot such loads in it. Paco does not recommend his loads for the older M94s either. The Hornady 160 gr LeveRevolution runs 2452 fps out of my M94AE with 37,800 psi(M43). That is about 40 fps higher than was quoted on the box of ammo. My Paco load with a 150 gr bullet using H335 runs 2527 fps at 44,400 psi(M43). That is the top end of the MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) range for the 30-30. I suggest you look at Lyman's reloading manuals for data. My loads do not exceed that of the #48, 1st Edition but do exceed the max loads of the last edition of the #48 manual. You must decide what you want to do if you load those 150 gr SPBTs. However, the 160 gr LeveRevolution bullets are now available as a componant. I duplicate the Factory velocity with them velocity wise but the load(s) still produce 4 - 7,000 psi over the Factory loads.

Nothing wrong with a 311041 at 2200+ fps BTW.

Larry Gibson

[JIMinPHX]

I get the 150-grain Lee RNFP up over 2300fps out of my 30-30 by pushing it with Reloader 7. The accuracy is better than with jacketed factory ammo. The speed is the same. I see no signs of high pressure, but that's as far as I dare push it. I save those for hunting. For plinking, I use a 1200fps Unique load.

[Marlin Junky]

I shot the 37.0 grain load of H-380 with the 180 grain LFN today and it preformed admirably in terms of group size (5 rounds into 1.5MOA w/ receiver sights) but the velocity with the old 336A didn't quite reach 2300 fps. Next week I'm going to run a string of 10 through the chronograph using 38.0 grains. It would be nice to know how much above 40K PSI these loads are generating. I haven't miked the case heads for expansion yet but they'll probably go just under .421" after starting at .418" (fresh out of the FL die). I'll double check these numbers and post corrections if necessary.

MJ

[Lloyd Smale]

the marlin is a stronger action and has been chambered in rounds that aproach 50000psi chamber pressure and can take ammo a bit hotter then factory with eaze. The 3030 is a round that is loaded conservitively by all the ammo manufactures and data in the books are conservititive too for the same reasons the 257 and 757 and many other rounds are loaded down. Even a new wincheter will take a bit more pressure then whats in the books. I wont give out loads I use that arent in a loading manual but its nothing to take a 3030 into spitting range of a 300 sav. Now whether your gaining any killing power is very debateable. Id say no. the bullets used in 3030s are designed to open up at lower velocitys anyway and can be a bit destructive even in factory ammo and pushing them is just going to make it worse. I would have to worry about penetration on anything bigger then a small deer with hot ammo. As to flatter trajectory a guy that knows his gun and load can easily take game to 200 yards with a 3030 using factory level ammo. If i want to shoot deer farther out then that im going to bring the proper tool to do it

[358 Win]

Agree with what Tony 6.5x55 said. You might have a safe condition of a spitzer 150 in the chamber and one in magazine. However, your OAL will be too long so deep seating will be required reducing your already limited powder capacity. Also will your 150gr spitzer expand on game? Buy a .300 Savage 99 and never look back. My .300's send a 150gr bullet out the muzzle at 2700fps no sweat.
Those 150 spitzers DO expand at that velocity and are DEADLY on deer. My 99 in .300 Savage is one of the MOST accurate firearms in my collection.
358 Win

[frank505]

Try the 130 Grain Speer flat point and work up an accurate load using Reloader 7. I have shot a bunch of deer and antelope with this bullet. Nice sized wound channel and have never recovered a bullet.
I also shoot the Saeco #307 ( 180 grain FPGC) with 42 grains of 4895. Very accurate and good killer on deer.
The little Speer 110 grain flat hollow point is a heck of a killer on p-dogs and coyotes, very loud noise when it hits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[XWrench3]

i will chime in my 2 cents worth here also. forget about hot rodding a 30-30! all you are going to do is hurt yourself! buy as hot of a round as you can, and leave it at that. if you want 30-06 performance, get a 30-06! guns are not like cars or motorcycles, where the amount of power can easilly be doubled. i know, i have done it many times with autos and bikes. but guns are almost to their limits right out of the box. if you try pushing these, they will push back, HARD! and they WILL HURT YOU!

[Uncle R.]

You really can get some pretty impressive performance from a .30-30 as long as your .30-30 is a 788.

[MitchK]

You really can get some pretty impressive performance from a .30-30 as long as your .30-30 is a 788.
Or a Ruger No1 !! I've been following this thread with interest hoping to find a new load for mine.

[Retro]

My 336 gives the best *accuracy* with the Sierra 170 grain J-word at 2300 fps.

*shrugs*

[John Y Cannuck]

I've taken moose with the 30-30 loaded below max, with a single Hornady Interlock.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/13589moose3_2005.jpg
I've shot end to end through whitetail with wheel weight cast bullets at 1950 fps.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMGP1045.JPG

I don't understand why anyone would want better performance than that.

One more consideration. Spitzers are designed for higher velocities, and, unless you use the Hornady designed for the 30-30, may not expand properly at 30-30 velocities.

[pls1911]

The discussion on this thread has been interesting , up to a point.
The need for speed /flatter trajectory/ and magic bullets is NOT what the .30-30 is about! It's good enough out to 150 yards... and in 50+ years of hunting, I've never taken a shot that far.
I have to agree with the consensus above that if you want to hot rod the 30-30, go to an '06 or .308.

I've made four converts to the 30-30 from hard core .270/'06 crowd by simply loaning them an old scoped .30-30 with 170-180 grain cast bullets pushed at 1900 fps.
With the .30-30's relatively low recoil, low noise, and drop in their tracks performance, the common response was "Why have I been stubbornly beating myself up all these years....this 30-30 was fun!" Each bought his own "old gun" and shoots only cast bullets, which I am pleased to provide. Their other guns now collect dust.

[1Shirt]

Gotta like, maybe love the 30-30. Have a thing for my 94, and ought to pick up a Marlin if I can find one used and reasonable.

Still think that probably more game, of all types edible and non edible has been shot with 30-30 than with any other ctg. But it is sort of like the plain Jane, that you took home to Mom and that stayed with you for the rest of your life while the flashy Janes got traded off. It is a rifle that compares to comfort food, and once in awhile, there is nothing that tastes quite as good as a big greasy cheesburger. It is a fun ctg and have loaded just about everything I could think of in it. That includes round ball (even did two-but only once), 22cal 55 grain Jacketed w/sabots, and every blt wt that I cast up to and including 200 grainers.

Have shot spire pointed hard cast w/one in the chamber, and one only in the tube, and had excellent sucess. Nothing wrong with having only two shots, but ya need to have your head on straight regarding safety w/spire points and 94's. Have gotten good case life by only full length sizing after annealing about ever 5th or 6th. load. Have a number of rifles with a number of different cals, but a few times a year just have to take the old dirty-thirty out. Really a great woman/kids starter rifle now with Trail Boss cowboy action loads by the way.:brokenima
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Larry Gibson]

Gray Fox

Suggest you look at my thread on loading LeveRevoltion powder under 150 gr bullets. I am getting 2540 fps with less psi than factory LeveRevolution loads and less psi than several regular 150 gr factory loads. Accuracy is also excellent. My testing was done with my M94AE with 24" barrel.

You will find the problem with spitzers, even the 150 gr ones, is the ogive is too long for a correct oal to be fed from the magazine. The shorter 125/130 gr SPs can feed ok. However, the Hornady 160 gr FTX bullets are readily available, comparably priced to other tipped bullets. You can easily duplicate the factory load using LeveRevolution powder at under SAAMI psi's for the 30-30. They run 2400+ fps out of my M94AE also with excellent accuracy. With those you will not have to use only one round in the tube mag.

Paco Kelly snipped the ends off Hornady 130 gr SPs to use in his loads in newer made M94s with 24" barrels. I have developed and used his loads with the 130 Speer FP and 150 gr FN/RN 30-30 loads for some years. The powder used is H335. I developed his loads using the method PO Ackley described as did Paco. They are good loads for use in new M94s and the new Marlins both with 24" barrels. However, let me say this; the psi as measured in my M94AE with an Oehler M43 exceed the SAAMI MAP for the 30-30 cartridge of 42,000 psi. The psi(M43) that I measured for my Paco Kelly loads with the 130 gr Speer FP at 2758 fps were at the SAAMI MPLM level of 44,000 psi. I consider these loads as to much for older M94s and should be used only in recently made M94s such as the M94AEs and then with considerable caution, Paco also made this recommendation in his writings. With the release of LeveRevolution powder such loads are not really necessary as with 150 gr bullets 2500+ fps can easly be attained with psi's well within the SAAMI MAP, much smarter and safer that way.

With the 150 or particularly the 160 FTX bullet and LeveRevolution powder the 30-30 out of a 24" barrel becomes a 300 yard deer or antelope cartridge. With either the M94AE or the Marlin s with 24" barrels using a scope one can utilize this capability. Even in older 20" barrels the LeveRevolution loads give safe and much better ballistics than with older powders using comparable psi loads. Makes them definately 200+ yard deer rifles with a much flatter trajectory.

Larry Gibson

[9.3X62AL]

Interesting thread, surely. I've not seen the need to extend the 30-30 WCF past its 1895 load levels, since it works so darn well at that intensity--and there have always been 308s or 30-06s in the safe as well. Sierra 170 FN ahead of 32.0 grains of WW-748 runs 2125-2150 FPS from my Win 94/20" barrel, and stays 2.0 MOA to 150 yards. Same story with castings, Lymans #311041 or #311291 over 28.0 to 30.0 of WW-748......2 MOA to 150 yards, 1850-2000 FPS. Those boolits cast as softpoints would make a great vension harvester.

[Larry Gibson]

Huh....one slight correction 9.3x62AL; Those boolits cast as softpoints do make a great vension harvester.:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[northmn]

Like the others, I prefer using the Savage 99 if I am sitting over a field where the shots get longer. I took a deer at 140 paces from the tree with a cast load for the 30-30 and felt that that was about the extent of my range with peep sights. The lever carbines and rifles do not lend themselves to longer range shooting. Also I found cast bullets if done right seem to work better than jacketed ones. About the only jacketed that will perform with a cast bullet might be a Nosler partition. I can get about 2000 fps with a cast 188 grain bullet out of my 24 inch barreled Marlin which has been an excellent load. Look at Cannuck's pictures when you think about souping up a 30-30. They are a good tool for their purpose.

DP

[Larry Gibson]

I would add that using leveRevolution powder does not "soup up" the loads in the sense of increasing pressures for "hot loads". The LeveRevolution loads operate at pressures consistent with SAAMI specs and give less psi than several traditional factory 30-30 loads with an increase of 200+ fps. In the 24" newer made Winchesters and Marlins with 24" barrels and the availability of using scopes the accuracy and cartridge potential with LeveRevolution powder definately makes them 300 yard deer/antelope rifles.

I've shot many a deer, an elk and numerous varmints with the 311041 loaded to 2000 fps out of 20" barreled carbines and have no qualms with using it under 200 yards. I'm looking forward to testing the LeveRevolution powder under the 311041 in the 24" barreled M94AE and the 20" barreled Carbine. If one can push that cast bullet to 2200 fps with accuracy and lower psi's out of the 20" barrel and perhaps 2400 fps out of the 24" barrel then that is a definate improvement.

The point is; with LeveRevolution powder you can "soup up" the 30-30 without increasing pressures. No one says anyone has to do it. If anyone is perfectly satisfied with what they've been using that's fine by me and most everyone else. However, if an advantage can be safely had and someone wants to use it then by all means do so, in my opinion anyways.

Larry Gibson

[dualsport]

I saw it on tv. You can not kill a deer with a 30-30 anymore. Those weak deer are all gone. Evolution I guess. Shots now are taken 600 yds. plus. The farther the better, if you shoot at a mulie at 925 MEASURED yards you are the man. Gonna need something flatter shooting for that, and a laser range finder too. A spotter to walk you in is also good. Hunting is out. Pretending you are a special ops sniper/operator is in. (Sorry, it was in me and had to come out. There's actually a show called "Long Range Pursuit"! Disgusting.) I love my old 94.

[Larry Gibson]

I think "long range" is relative. A 100+ yard shot can be very long range and taxing to the probable majority of lever action 30-30 owners. Talking about the ones that buy the rifle, a box of ammo (probably never buy the same kind twice with choice being made on what Walmart has on sale), assume the rifle is zeroed, have no idea what a proper sight alignment and sight picture is and usually jerk the trigger anyway. If they zero it is once a year, maybe, at a coffee can at what they think is 50 yards in a gravel pit but is more likely closer to 25 yards. If the hit close, that is "close enough" and they go blissfully away hunting. If lucky they may go to a "sighting in day" at a local range and get closer to actual zero. 100 yards is "long range" to them.

Out of a properly zeroed 20" carbine, even with factory sights, a good shooter can use the 30-30 cartridge to 150 yards and probably even 200 yards if they know what they're doing. With a properly zeroed carbine with aperture sights the 200 yards range is just about a given. Now, put the old 30-30 out of a 24" barrel, particularly with a Marlin or Winchester AE with a scope on it, use good ammo and the 200 yard shots are easily done. Using "hotter" loads or better yet, the LeveRevoltuion ammo and 250 - 300 yards shots on deer/antelop can also be easily done and it can be done quite safely.

Some like the shorter range capability of standard loads, including cast, in the carbine 30-30s and it suits the hunting conditions used in just fine. However, some of us like the lever action Marlins or Winchester M94s who hunt more open places where shots out to 300 yards are fairly common. Having ammunition and lever actions that enable us to effectively hunt under those conditions is simply what I am talking about. If some are happy with the standard 30-30 and it suits their hunting conditions then so be it. But is it really necessary to chasticise those who seek better performance from the cartridge using a rifle instead of a carbine to hunt in places where longer range shots are probable and taking them with a rifle capable of the accuracy to do it with? Granted most deer are killed on the short side of 200 yards but its certainly nice to be able to reach across a clear cut to 300 yards if you can, with a rifle you like to use.......

Larry Gibson

[rintinglen]

I have shot a lot of lever action silhouette--220 yards (200 meters) is a long shot with iron sights and a lever gun. I have sent 311-041s down range at 2300 fps from a 26 inch barreled M-94 commemorative, I have also had to rebarrel said 94 due to a jugged chamber. I suppose it might make a hands breadth of difference if you send a bullet at 2400 feet per second as opposed to 2200, but at an honest 300 yard range, you re still looking at a foot and a half or so of drop, and a flight time of .13 to .14 seconds. Any wind worth mentioning will be able to turn a heart shot into a gut shot. If you contemplate a need for 300 yard shots, you need more gun than a 30-30, loaded anyway you care to.

If, on the otherhand, you only want to kill deer or deer size game at commonly encountered distances, then you don't need much more than a 30-30 ever.

[Larry Gibson]

HHHmmmmm......then I wonder why the 30-30 isn't the only cartridge we have.......



BTW; Both the M94AE and the Marlins with 24" barrels can easily be scoped for much greater accuracy, particularly at distance. When zeroed at 200 yard the LeveRevolution ammo (what was referenced as "300 yard" capable 30-30 ammo) is 2.8" high at 100 and 12.8" low at 300 yards. The 311041 at 2400 fps when zeroed at 200 yards makes a very fine 250 yard cartrodge. The drop is only 6" at 250 yards with 1580 fps remaining velocity. Both are very adequate for deer within those ranges and "much more than a 30-30" is not needed, if you can shoot, that is. It's just a matter of being able to take advatage of the potential that is there.

However, if you still hunt and your shots are on deer within 100 yards or you sit in a blind and wait 'til the deer come to the feeder within 100 yards (I've no problem with that) using a carbine 30-30 with issue sights then the LeveRevolution loads will not give any advantage as mentioned. Just depends on the places and the style of your hunting. Some of us do appreciate the added potential. If you don't that's fine also.

Larry Gibson

[Canuck Bob]

I think as hunters some of us pick cartridges to limit ourselves. I added a 58 flintlock to my safe. It is my whitetail rifle. If I absolutely must harvest what I see I would pick a different rifle. As it is 100 yards is max with my limits. 200 yards has always been my hunting limit, I disagree with long range hunting, noone ever confess' to loosing game but many animals suffer from the practice of long range hunting. If we have one firm committment it must be that our quarry dies hard and fast. If I had to feed my family and ignore the ethics and laws of our sport I'd use a 30/30 and jack light over a salt block (don't ask) but as a hunter I won't bait even where it is legal.

The 30/30 was considered a standard big game rifle in northern Canada for a long time. Within its limits a rifleman is well armed to roam the wildest bush. Many trappers considered the 303 Lee Enfield as too much rifle due to its large size and being much less handy. I can't remember a farm house without a 303 leaning in the corner for bears and gas thieves. Both would run like the dickens when a 303 barked.

As a handloader the practice of loading hot, within safe limits, is part of the fun. Paco loads everything a notch over my comfort level but he is hardly a run of the mill gun nut or unsafe. I'm sure from his writing that he sneaks up on those loads in each rifle. There is quite a difference between a stoked hunting round used a few times a season to a high volume practice round. My 32-20 is pegged at BP energy levels by SAMMI. My Winoku is a strong rifle of the best modern steels with outstanding fit and tolerances. So I can experiment and I'm planning to sneak-up on a couple of Paco's loads. If i owned a 30/30 I would shoot 10-15 hot rounds a season and develop a steady diet of mid pressure cast target rounds all year. If you can hit where you aim every time with your heart pounding even a 243 could be considered a deer rifle, time to duck and cover!

[pls1911]

This long range" discussion makes me giggle.
Most of my "long range" is something like 70 yards, and saved for pigs.
Deer shots are about eating, pure and simple, with meaqt queality of utmost importance.
My early season blind is a hacked out hole carved in one side of a cedar bush-tree, with a lawn chair backed against the stump and about 5 feet of cedar bushed all around me and above me....
My tree is about 30 feet from the feeder, and shots through the overhanging cedar whiskers are rarely that far.... often half that far.
I use either a snuffed 30-30, or a .45 colt from a 24" barrel, or a 300 grain 45-70 at 900 fps from a rolling block for a quiet loads. Or any of the above from a TC.
Head out 2 hours before dawn, go to sleep, and let the deer wake me up... pick a sweet one for the pit, pot, and freezer, pull the trigger and that's it...
except for a week of aging, grilled 'strap, chili, jerky, saddle stew and a couple of roasts.

The rest of my season is spent guiding and cooking, making believers out of folk who hate venison because it's "gamey tasting" HAHAHAHAHA... they learn it ain't so, and in doing so forever change their approach to hunting.

[white eagle]

You could just buy a 30/06:groner:
then when that gets to ordinary or pedestrian
go to the 300 Winchester magnum
not to be a s/a but while Hornady is making strides in ammo
there are other clubs in the bag better suited for your wants

[Larry Gibson]

Speaking of "giggles....I always giggle when some think their way of hunting is the only way. Been to texas and "hunted" out of a "stand" waiting for deer to come to the feeder which was not more than 100 yards away. I enjoyed it and what the hey....when in Rome do as the Romans do. However, if you come to Oregon and mention that "stand" you'll get laughed out of the state. Mention the feeder and you be quickly advised it's illegal to bait deer in Oregon. Hunt the open spaces in Eastern Oregon and you'll soon find the limitations to your 20" barreled carbine whether you can "hunt" or not. You'll also find that the one deer tag, if you draw one every 2-3 years, along with the 10 day season will have you wanting to use what ever rifle you choose to your advantage.

So, if I want to hunt the thick forest of the Oregon coastal mountains or the hill country of Texas where shots will be less than 150 yards and more likely less than 100 yards I am quite at home with my M94 carbine loaded with 311041s at 2000 fps. I have killed many deer with that very load. However, I was smart enough when I moved to Eastern Oregon to see the limitations of the M94 Carbine with that load. I've used an '06 for many years (didn't need the 300 Win Mag thank you) and have killed may deer, elk and a Big Horn Sheep I couldn't have killed with the M94 carbine. Yes I killed some I could have killed with the M94 but I would have come home to tag soup most of the time if all I had was the M94. Please don't tell me about not knowing how to hunt if you haven't hunted mule deer in a short season after they've been chased before your season by indians for the horns and doe hunters, especially in the wide open high desert country.

Now I do love my Winchester lever actions and with the 24" barreled M94AE if I can get better performance safely within SAAMI specs with the 30-30 cartridge and make That rifle 300 yard capable then that puts that rifle back in the game where I like to hunt. Come hunt where I hunt with your M94 carbine and I can guarentee it's not you that will be "giggling". Yes, "hunting" deer in texas is fun with the stands and feeders and multiple tags but that's not the way it is every where. Matter of fact I shot my Texas deer with my .35 Remington M91 Mauser with a RCBS 35-200-FN and it would also be a fine choice in western Oregon, but it is not a very good choice for that once every 2-3 year deer tag in eastern Oregon. The M94AE with the "hot" 30-30 loads is a good choice for that game.

Larry Gibson

[Gunnut 45/454]

Well I push my Lee cast 170gr GC at 1998 FPS which is faster then factory Winchesters! If I want more speed I'll just go with my '06 where I can push the same bullet to 2200 fps or more! With my new to me Rem 7400 in '06 I;ve been doing exactly that! Now I couldn't get that fast in my Sav 110 '06 as I topped out at about 2000 fps when the groups would go to heck!

[GabbyM]

There is always that why not factor.
Most 30-30’s will shoot pretty fast but the brass won’t last very long.
If you can get your velocity with lower pressure you’ll save some money.