Lyman 358156 in 38 special load information

[Corbi]

I am looking for data on the Lyman 358156 bullet. I am planning on seating the bullet long in 38 special brass. I did a search for 38/44 data and am not coming up with much.

Does anyone know of a source for loading data?

Does anyone have a favorite load they will share? The load I have found is with 2400. I would prefer to find a load with 296.

Thanks.

Corbi

[Calamity Jake]

Lyman Cast Bullet may give some data for 358156 and 2400 in 38 SP but not 296.

What fire arm are you wanting to shoot this load in?

[Corbi]

Immediately in a 4" S&W 586. Future plans include a Marlin '94.

Corbi

[GrizzLeeBear]

..... I did a search for 38/44 data and am not coming up with much....

Do a search for "skeeter skelton".

[anachronism]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=53508&highlight=38%2F44

There is a lot more out there.

[MakeMineA10mm]

My personal favorite with that exact set-up (S&W 686x4" bbl, 38Spl. cases, 358156 loaded long, loaded to 38-44 levels) is 5.6grs of W231. This is actually a little under a 38-44 load, but it's WAAAAY over any 38+P load.

There was a great article in one of the Handloader Magazines about loading ammo like the old 38-44 factory ammo, and it pretty much quoted near 357 Mag ballistics and used primarily 2400 and Unique powders, IIRC.

I developed the above load, because I wanted something in-between the hottest 38 and the "standard" 357 Mag loads. I do not use GCs with this load (or standard 38-level loads), so I jumped in on a GB mould here of a plain base version of the Lyman bullet, with the lube groove made larger and re-centered to avoid making the base-band way bigger than the middle driving band. It's a great boolit for these loads and standard 38s. I reserve my GC Lyman-mould boolits for full-house 357 loads.

[NHlever]

You can double check me on this, but I think the case capacity of the .38 Special with the Lyman 358156 loaded long (to .357 mag. length) has the same case capacity as the .357 case has with that boolit seated short. ( SAMMI .357 OAL) With that information, you are on your own, but it might suggest that you could start with .357 start data with that boolit in your S&W 586, and Marlin only if you want to use H-110, etc. Make darn sure those loads have no chance of getting mixed up with standard .38 Special loads though!!!

[Corbi]

You can double check me on this, but I think the case capacity of the .38 Special with the Lyman 358156 loaded long (to .357 mag. length) has the same case capacity as the .357 case has with that boolit seated short. ( SAMMI .357 OAL) With that information, you are on your own, but it might suggest that you could start with .357 start data with that boolit in your S&W 586, and Marlin only if you want to use H-110, etc. Make darn sure those loads have no chance of getting mixed up with standard .38 Special loads though!!!

That is what I understood.

My trouble with that is the 358156 loaded in the 357 brass has a longer OAL than the same bullet loaded long in the 38 special brass (by 0.04"). Seems the two cartridges would have a different internal capacity. Maybe the 357 brass is thicker at the base and they have the same capacity?

I'm thinking the 358156 loaded long in the 38 sp brass will come close to but not equal the internal capacity of the 357 brass.

Some written data would be great if there is any out there.

Corbi

[GP100man]

Load 6grs. of HERCO it is a very stable load , deviation in my GPs is in single digits.

I got my load from beagles article in cast pics under articles by members, Heck I even had my 358156 Ideal HP mold dehorned !!!& love it !!!!http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx110/GP100man/th_102_0012.jpg

[NHlever]

If you give me the OAL that you plan to use, I will run it in Quickload for you with the powder you want to use. I've found that Quickload's pressures don't always agree with the manuals so you have to consider that.

[Bret4207]

I hesitate to say this, but there are certain loads that have worked for me with the older type 2400. I ahve no clue if the newer type uses the same charges. I used "The Skeeter Skelton Load" for years without issue in 38 brass. Start around 10.0 2400 and work up.

[Corbi]

Went to the range today wth the Chornograph. I took several loads to test fire. I was looking for best accuracy.

An interesting read is “My Friend the 357” by Skeeter Skelton. http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=30
There are some good loads listed in the article.

Corbi’s Notes for Lyman 358156 seated long in the 38 special

Powder-2400 casing-Federal 38 special +P

Charge approximate average velocity for 5 shots
10.5 grains 1350
11 1425
11.5 1460 very accurate
12 1500 poor accuracy
12.5 1571 max, poor accuracy


357 data Federal

14 1600 very accurate
14.5 1700 poor accuracy
15 1750 poor accuracy

The 11.5 grain load with the 358156 bullet looks like the best load for my rifle. I can probably load the 357 cases down to duplicate the velocity and POI. Or use the LEE RF-158 grain bullet in the 357 casings to duplicate the POI.

Corbi

[ARMINIUS PANZERSCHMIED]

a 200gr. with 12.4gr. of 296 will do 1125 fps +/- from a 4".

I usually use 13 gr. of 2400 with a 158 gr. lswchp that does 1300fps+/- in my 2nd mdl. .38/44.

I'm thinkin' about goin' to a 180gr. lswchp at about 1000 fps for defense,and down to a 125-140 lswc for small game work to about 1400 fps,,,both with 2400.

I am thinkin' on a 180 swc at 1100+ for shootin' hogs in the under brush here in the deep south,,ought to work on whitetails just as well.

I really love my .38/44:mrgreen:

[Good Cheer]

358156 with wheel weights was my choice for jack rabbits in the lever action. Used just enough Unique to eliminate the vertical stringing.

In a 38Spl I think a seated out hot loaded heavier weight wadcutter is best for self defense. Best trade off between penetration and energy transfer.

[SciFiJim]

358156 with wheel weights was my choice for jack rabbits in the lever action. Used just enough Unique to eliminate the vertical stringing.

In a 38Spl I think a seated out hot loaded heavier weight wadcutter is best for self defense. Best trade off between penetration and energy transfer.


I know I am resurrecting and old thread, (one of the great thing about this place it the accumulated knowledge) but I am looking for a load like Good Cheer is using for a lever gun.

The NOE 360160SWC with double crimp groove is at the manufacturer right now and I am looking for loads for it in my Marlin lever using .38 Special brass and seated at the bottom crimp groove. I am looking for lower end loads for rabbit and squirrel at 25-50 yards. Possible powders are Unique, Bullseye, and 2400. Any ideas on loads?

[Larry Gibson]

In limited pressure testing (Oehler M43) of 38/44 loads with 2400 (12 - 13.5 gr) using a 150 gr 358477 I found the psi's to be very close to .357 psi's of WW, Rem and Fed 158 SWC factory loads. The MAP for those was in the 25 - 30,000 psi range. The 13.5 gr 2400 "38/44" load actually had a higher MAP that one of the factory .357 loads.

I've shot a lot of 358156s loaded "long" in .38 cases over 13 gr of 2400 for many years out of several .357 mags years ago. That is definately in .357 magnum psi territory.

Larry Gibson

[SciFiJim]

Larry,
Thanks, but I am looking for probably low end .38 loads. I am using the NOE 360180WFN for magnum load shooting. My idea was to have a low end load for rabbits and squirrels that I can identify instantly by sight and feel while hunting. I will have to learn where it shoots while sighted in for the heavier load and adjust POI accordingly for the lighter load.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Jim,
The two often-repeated "classic" 38 Spl loads with 158gr boolits are 5.0grs Unique or 4.0grs W231 (HP38). This is with standard seating length, not using the longer length available with the lower crimp groove.

Personally, I haven't found any combination to be better than these, though I admit I've stuck to fast and medium-fast powders (nothing slower than Unique), so GP100man's Herco load is interesting me... I have successfully tried slower powders with "long-loading" these dual-crimp-groove boolits, but always at 38-44 level loads, never at lighter loads. I have tried 4.4 & 5.6 grs of W231 with the long-loaded boolit, and I found the 5.6 gr load not so dandy. If you are sticking with faster powders, the longer loading length option doesn't get us anything, at least in my limited testing.

Somewhere I have my chrono data on the short vs. long loaded boolits with W231, if you want it.

[Larry Gibson]

Jim

+1 on Mike's response.

Larry Gibson

[garym1a2]

3 grain of bullseye

[wv109323]

WW296 is not recommended by Winchester in the .38 Special case per their eleventh edition loading data booklet.
For the .357 case and 158 gn. bullet they recommend 14.5 gn of WW296 for a velocity of 1560 FPS. A footnote recommends magnum primers and a heavy roll crimp.
A full 20 years ago I used WW296 in a .357 Contender (with .357 brass)with a 125 J-word hollow point. The load was 18.5 gn of WW296 with the 125 gn. bullet. Velocity was 1800FPS. I used this in hunters silohoutte and people would not shoot beside me due to the noise. Load was super accurate and no elevation change was needed if you sighted in about 1" high at 50 yards. Loads also had quite a bit of muzzle flash.

[9.3X62AL]

Loads also had quite a bit of muzzle flash.

Light-for-caliber bullets and/or shorter barrel lengths using full-charge loads of WW-296 are great ways to illuminate adjacent hillsides at dusk. :)

[Corbi]

The load I ended up with is Federal 38 special nickle brass, Winchester small mag pistol primers, 16 grains of Lil'gun powder and the 358156 bullet seated long. Lil'gun seems to give the very highest velocities through a rifle with very low pressures.

For some reason I did not record the velocity. It shoots real well in my Marlin '94. Same POI as 18 grains of same powder in 357 brass with same bullet seated short. I do not recall the exact velocity but it makes a very viable deer load.

I'll add a few more details.

I am casting this bullet with 5050 WW and lead. They are water cooled, gas checked and sized at .358. Lube is Alox. I am getting no leading. I have shot several hundred in the rifle, a few in the pistol.

Corbi

[9.3X62AL]

I would say you found a winner for your firearm and usage conditions.

[TXGunNut]

I love a happy ending! Was going to suggest my old standby target load of 3.5 231 but I'm glad you found a load that worked well for you. :drinks: