8x56R Austro Hungarian brass?

[Wayne Smith]

Buckshot, Others

Went to a gunshow yesterday and came home with a Austrian M-95 Stutzen, 1895 Steyr/Mannlicher calvary carbine, not cut down because it has the short rear sight ladder. Looks to be in good shape, but I've not cleaned it yet.

Where do you find Boxer primed brass for this little gem? Grafs doesn't list it. I need to check Huntingtons web site, but got here first.

[45 2.1]

Graf does list it, go here:
http://www.grafs.com/metallic/798

[Wayne Smith]

I'll have to keep this, since it's out of stock. I was looking in the paper catalog. Thanks!

[junkbug]

Wayne;

You can try buying loaded Hornady ammo from Grafs. More expensive, but it is available. And ready to use, as soon as the parcel arrives!

Take care

Sean

http://www.grafs.com/product/6066

[bruce drake]

Here is the excerpt from SurplusRifle.com detailing how to load this cartridge with 7.62x54R brass. I don't own a M95 but it sounds like this will help the search for reloadable brass.

Bruce

In regards to using 7.62X54R (Mosin-Nagant) brass to make reloadable cases for the 8X56R (Steyr-Mannlicher m95), it is an easy proposition. I have used S&B brass with good results, and the new Winchester brass promises to be better (the S&B cases are thinner and will not withstand much stretching before incipient or actual head separation).

I prefer to use once-fired cases for conversions since any gross defect on the case will be manifested in the first firing. Lee Precision makes 8X56R dies for the same price as their other limited production dies, so there is no need to spend a great deal of money. The Lee set includes a shell holder and loading data that you will have a hard time finding otherwise. In addition, the neck expander on newer Lee sizing dies has a very substantial taper that makes neck forming extremely simple.



Annealing Description:
Annealing of brass is accomplished by subjecting the material to various temperatures and times. The effect of annealing is to reduce or remove the residual stresses locked into the brass part that were introduced during cold working of the metal as for example during the drawing and forming phase of the tube stock.
Here are two common ways of annealing brass cases:

Place an inch or so of water in a tray, stand the cartridge case upright in the water. Heat the case's neck with a propane torch, then quickly tip it over in the water for rapid cooling.
Hold the lower half of the case in pliers while rotating the case while over a propane flame, heating the neck area. When the case reaches temperature, it is immediately dropped into water.


The brass should be neck annealed, with the "color change" extending about halfway down the case body. This is necessary to give the body enough malleability to expand upon firing to the much larger chamber of the 8X56R.



NOTE:
Do not heat the case to a cherry red. Just heat the neck and watch the "color line" run down the body.


My preferred method is to hold the case in a pair of pliers, heating the neck and rotating the case until the desired level of annealing is reached, then drop the case into a bucket of water. The water has nothing to do with annealment, it simply cools the case before enough heat travels down to the head to soften it. Soft case heads are dangerous - your first indication after firing one (if you are still living), is loose primer pockets .

Lube the inside of the case neck with a cotton swab coated with case lube. I find Lee's wax-based case lube excellent, as it can be cut to any desired consistency with water or rubbing alcohol and it does not affect your powder or primers - you don't have to worry about cleaning every trace of it out of the case. Put a bit of lube around the head end of the case as well, although very little (if any) of the outside of the case will contact the die. Run the case through the sizing die, examine it for mouth splits, and lightly chamfer the inside of the mouth. Wash the cases in a rubbing alcohol bath and set aside to dry.


NOTE:
Buffalo Arms is offering .329 bullets and formed 8x56 brass at this time:
Item Price
.329" 200 Grn. Sptz. SP $18.00 / Box of 50
.329" 220 Grn. Sptz. SP $20.00 / Box of 50
8X56R Hungarian Bertram-formed $33.00 / Box of 20
Bullet Mould for .329
Lee Precision now catalogs a bullet mold for the 8X56R - Lee 1-Cavity Mold 329-205-1R (329 Diameter) 205 Grain 1 Ogive Radius for 8x56mm Rimmed Hungarian. It's not a gas check design, but with sufficient care, that should not be a real problem unless the rifle has a very poor bore.

Bullets are the major problem with the 8X56R. They do not use a standard 8mm bullet, even though the cartridge description has the "S" bore (.323") designator. The 8X56R uses a .329" bullet that is not in standard production anywhere, although there are a good number of custom bullet makers that can provide you with .329" - .330" bullets. Accuracy with these rifles using standard 8mm bullets is usually dismal.


I have come up with two simple solutions:
1) Buy a Lee Sizing Kit in .329" diameter. Lee's product # is 90934. Buy the Speer .338" - 200 grain Spitzer Hot-Cor bullets. These particular Speer bullets have a softer core and thinner jacket than others I've tried. Using a liberal amount of case sizing lube, simply size the bullet down in the die according to die instructions. It takes a good press and some amount of force. DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, FORGET TO LUBE EACH AND EVERY BULLET!! After sizing, wash the bullets in a solvent that will remove all traces of lube. These bullets generally come out at around .330" - .331"; don't worry, it's close enough. Don't worry about the die, either - it's designed to size jacketed bullets.
2) Buy a Lee Sizing Kit in .329" diameter. Lee's product # is 90934. Cast your own or buy some 200 - 225 grain .338" bullets. They need to be as pointed as possible and fairly hard - I use 8 parts wheel weights/2 parts Linotype. Lube them with the Liquid Alox that comes with the Lee Sizing Kit, following the instructions enclosed. After they dry (read: the next day), size them as per instructions. If you want to gas-check the bullets, I find that I have better luck with the .338" checks by seating them in another pass - not while sizing the bullet. If you can get 8mm checks that will fit on the heel of your bullet, they can be attached during the sizing operation. I lube the bullets again after sizing - it's up to you.

Load the cartridges in the usual fashion, using 48 grains of any 4350. Keep overall cartridge length at 3.0" as the Steyr is very finicky about OAL and bullet type. Spitzers are important - the rifle will often completely refuse to strip short rounds or blunt bullets from the magazine. After fire forming the cases, it is of the utmost importance that you resize the brass as little as possible. Back off your sizing die so that it sizes only most of the neck - just enough to hold the bullets in place firmly. These rifles headspace on the cartridge rim and often have absolutely HUGE chambers. Full-length resizing every time is guaranteed to cause head separations in only 3-4 loadings at most. Cases made from the 7.62X54R are a little bit shorter than the 8X56R brass, but since the cartridge headspaces on the rim and has no identifiable shoulder, this is of no consequence.

New brass is available from Bertram in Australia. I know that Midway USA carries it; I think that the Old Western Scrounger also has it. It's excellent brass, it's just expensive as hell. The same precautions about resizing fired cases apply to the Bertram brass as well - or maybe more so, considering its expense.

The following load data is completely safe in my 95, which has a slightly dark but strong bore. I have not chronographed it, as my Chrony took a hit from shrapnel peeled from a bullet by a ported barrel. I really need to get it fixed.


Load Recipes:
1) Speer 200 Hot-Cor Spitzer, resized to .330", 50.0 grains of any 4350, Winchester LR primer.
2) Cast gas-checked 225 resized to .330", 45.0 grains of any 4350, Winchester LR primer.
3) Cast gas-checked 225 resized to .330", 56.0 grains (or as much as you can get in the case and still seat the bullet) of Accurate 8700, Winchester LR primer. This is a very low-pressure loading and is great for the cast bullets.

I can write a book on modifying stuff to allow you to trim the Bertram brass ( I doubt that the S&B or Winchester will ever grow enough to need trimming), modifying dies, etc. - I do it all the time to allow me to reload obsolete ammo for people so that they can enjoy their old guns.

[Wayne Smith]

WOW! Bruce, that's everything I need to get started. I need to order the SurplusRifle.com disassembly CD to master the take-down. The guy who sold it to me cautioned me not to remove the bolt! Said the bolt head often turns 90degrees and it's almost impossible to get it back. I'm sure that this isn't a design feature and there's a safe way to take it down, and I'm reasonably sure Jamie knows it.

The Lee bullet appears in the catalog to be a round nose, and I thought a GC design. I may be wrong. Have you used it? Does the round nose fit the throat, or is there a better design out there? NEI catalogues a .330-245-GC (#98) and a .331-200-GC-DD (#98A), both look like bore riders. They also have a .331-220-GC (#99) that looks somewhat pointed. The #98 is somewhat pointed while the #98A is a true round nose, but does appear to be bore riding. I'm thinking #98 may be a touch too heavy. I'll have to get Rick to make me a H&I die in .331, too. Makes lubing much easier.

Not only is the cartridge supposed to be of "S" diameter, my rifle has a large "S" punched on the top of the barrel! I guess their calipers were zeroed a little differently.

I did find brass at Huntingtons. It's listed as Grafs' brass, I assume Privi Partizan. I don't find that a problem. I'd rather do that than size 7.62x54 brass.

I'm just beginning in the game of reforming brass. First my 10.5x47R and now the 8x56R. This is fun!

[bruce drake]

I don't own one of these rifles but it looks like a simple neck up of the 7.62x54R brass will get you in business. After the first shot of the rimmed case you'll have a fireformed case to match your chamber. Would be simpler to buy pre-made but definitely cheaper to reform and as you said it is fun.

Here is a weblink to a set of instructions with pictures on how to disassemble your bolt

http://www.geocities.com/codywyk/

Bruce

[Shepherd2]

Don't be afraid to remove the bolt. I've had the bolt head turn on my M95s many times. I just wrap a rag around the bolt head to protect my hand. Get a good grip on the bolt body with the other hand and pull and twist. I'm careless with the bolts because, to me anyway, it's no big deal to return them to the proper position. I've seen photos of a dime placed between the bolt head and the bolt body to keep the head from turning. A dime isn't wide enough to fit the space on my bolts.

If you decide to take the bolt out, with the bolt pulled back push forward on the trigger and withdraw the bolt. Push forward on the trigger again to reinstall.

BTW the M95 with surplus ammo is a thumper. I'm not very recoil sensitive and I normally scoff at people who get purple shoulders from their milsurp rifles but if I shoot a M95 in warm weather I use a slip on recoil pad.

The 8x56R is the next cartridge I'm going to start reloading. I've picked up some good info from this thread.

Another thing only load your M95 using the mannlicher stripper clips designed for the rifle If you load cartridges singlely you will ruin your extracter sooner or later. Most likely sooner. If you need some clips PM me. I've got more than I need.

[StarMetal]

I don't think anyone here has more experience with the 8x56R carbines then Buckshot, Oldfeller, and myself. Fist the "S" doesn't mean it's the .323 caliber. Here's what it means:

he Steyr M1895 rifle, also known as Steyr-Mannlicher M95 straight pull rifle, was developed by famous Austrian arms designer Ferdinand Ritter Von Mannlicher. Based on his previous M1890 design, this rifle was manufactured in Austro-Hungarian Empire at state arms factories in Steyr (Austria) and Budapest (Hungary). More than 3 millions of M95 rifles were produced between 1895 and 1918. This rifle was issued to Austro-Hungarian army, and, after the fall of the Empire, to the Austrian and Hungarian armies. Originally produced in 8x50R caliber, in 1924 some of M95 rifles were converted to the German 7.92x57 Mauser (also known as 8x57 Mauser) ammunition. These converted rifles featured shorter 58 cm barrels, were designated as M95/24 and used in Yugoslavia and Bulgaria. This conversion gave away with original Mannlicher en bloc clip, and replaced it with Mauser stripper clips. Since 1930 Austria converted most of the M95 rifles to the more powerful 8x56R M30 ammunition, using the same Mannlicher en bloc clips. These rifles were designated as M95/30, and marked with the letter "S" on the receiver ring. Hungary started to convert their rifles to the same 8x56R ammunition in 1931, with the upgraded rifles being marked with the letter "H" on the receiver ring. Many of the M95 rifles were used during the Word War 2 by the Hungarian, Bulgarian and Italian armies, as well as by some German police forces.

Okay next...slug your bore. Mine and Buckshot's carbine have a .331 groove diameter. In fact Buckshot and I aren't very happy that Lee's bullet and their sizing die for it are too small. One reason why Oldfeller designed a bullet for the rifle and had a group buy on the moulds.

Next the 7.62x54R isn't just alittle short when turned into 8x56R brass, it's way too short. The 8x56R doesn't have much a neck to start with and converted 7.62X54 has only about 1/8 inch to hold the bullet...too short. The best thing to do is buy new brass for the rifle.

I have a receiver sight on my rifle and Oldfeller scoped his. My best group with Oldfellers bullet is 7/8 inch at 100 yards off the benchrest and that's with of all powders 5010 surplus. It also shoot that good with a few others. It's one of my favorite cast bullet rifles. You can also buy the Lee 338 bullet and size it down to the correct diameter, determined after you slug your barrel. Don't count on your groove diameter being .329.

Joe

[Wayne Smith]

Huntingtons out of stock and Grafs out of stock. Have to order with Grafs to get on their backorder list. Guy @ Huntingtons said made somewhere in Europe so almost certainly Privi Partizan. Not a problem for me. Have some of that in 7.5 Swiss, no problems.

[Buckshot]

............The military load from the surplus I bought many years ago (Austrian production) sports a very aerodynamic 208gr spitzer boattail @ .329". The velocity from the 19.5" bbl is a bit over 2300 fps! Yes, the little carbine backs off the bullet smartly. Check some 308 load data for a comparison.

As Joe mentioned, the grooves run about .331-2" and the throats are MUCH larger. My M95 and M95/30 will both chamber rounds with a .338" slug if not seated out to far. The M95/30 of mine has a .335" throat OD.

The triggers are crap. Spongy is the word, and very similar in feel to the Rooski M91's. For shooting in close like at 50 yards you'll need to use the 'secret' V in the rear sight. Stand the ladder up and slide the elevator up a bit and there it is hiding where the elevator normally rests.

While I haven't gotten Joes level of accuracy yet, I also haven't done a whole bunch with mine.

..................Buckshot

[StarMetal]

I forgot to mention and I told Buckshot and Oldfeller both this, I was polishing up my trigger to make it better; and I don't know what I did but the way it works now is that when you squeeze it slowly, it will get to a point where there is a little audible click...then it's like you set a hair trigger....might be the reason for some of my accuracy...I love it!!!! Oldfeller said "Wonder if that will wear and you lose that nice trigger?" Well, I don't know, hasn't so far.

Buckshot

Give your opinion of using too short 7.62x54R Rooski brass.


Joe

[twotoescharlie]

reformed 7.62x54 brass leaves a neck that is almost non existant. the graf brass is very nice. but I had to wait 18 months on the first buy. I purcjased 500 rounds but kinda lost interest in C&R's since then. 45-70 cases are a better substitute but takes a little more work to make them.

TTC

[Buckshot]

.............2TCharlie summed up the negatives of using 7.62x54R brass very well.

.............Buckshot

[NuJudge]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,3861.htm

I saw several listings, one of which I believe was the Graff-imported stuff, another which says "reformed".

Dare I suggest that you think about just repriming the original Berdan-primed stuff? I really don't find it much work.

CDD

[Wayne Smith]

Thank you! Now why didn't I think of them? Can't find the catalog, that's why. I'm too traditional, looking for paper instead of the internet. Anyway, 100 rounds ordered and order accepted.

[StarMetal]

45-70 is terrible to make into 8x56R. Two reasons, alot of work and they don't last. I did that when I first got my rifle. I had alot of neck splits with new 45-70 brass. I sat and thought about it and the best brass I found to make them out of was 350 Remington mag brass. Yup you read that right. All you do is chuck them in your lathe and mill the belt off and a tad more. Then just size them. Happens to be the 350 brass is the exact perfect lenght after sizing and no trimming required at all. I done a batch of these and shot the living daylights out of them with both light cast loads and blazing jacketed and cast load too. Lost nary a case, then are tough. There is just enough rim that the M95's generous extractor works them. I've also used 300 win mag brass. A lathe makes this a really easy and fast proprosition.

Funny, I'm the one that mentions 7.62x54R brass isn't any good and someone else gets applauded. Sorry to say but myself and oldfeller are way ahead of you other fellows on the 8x56R .

Joe

[twotoescharlie]

goollee andy,everyone doesn't have access to a lathe

[StarMetal]

You can do it on a drill press too. I"ve done some with very good results that way using a file.

Joe

[Wayne Smith]

Well, Buffalo Arms called and they are 3-4 weeks backordered on their Hornaday brass. Guess I'll wait. Hopefully I'll get the Combination gun (10.5x47R) back before then (new right side hammer spring) and be able to fireform some brass and play with that! That and teaching Boy Scouts to shoot will keep me busy.

Don't worry, Joe, I've no ambition to overtake either you or Rick! Learn from you, yes, catch you, probably never. I've no lathe, either.

[StarMetal]

Wayne,

No problem. I just hate to see someone just starting on this caliber and get suggests that myself, Buckshot, and Oldfeller have tried...and found not satisfactory. Just wanted to say you the trouble of being disappointed for example finding out that 7.62x54R brass is has an unsuitably too short a neck and that 45-70 brass won't hold up because it's thin at the neck, even for cast loads.

I bought a bunch of the Graf's brass the first time they came out with it and it's top notch stuff. Also got some in 7.62x54R.

When you get that rifle cleaned up slug it and see what your groove diameter really is. If you go the Lee route for the sizer die and you find your groove fatter then .329 which the die is, you can open a Lee die up pretty easy with home tools. You might luck out and get a Lee .329 mould that is alittle fat and throw bigger bullets. I've shot my .331 groove Steyr with the Lee .329 bullet and for being .002 undersized it shot really pretty decent. Like I said I use the Lee 338 mould and size the bullet down to about .332 or bigger and it shoots really good. Then Oldfeller drew up two mould for the 8x56R (the first one is gone forever...don't ask) but the second one, called Boxcar, is a real killer of a bullet. You might persuade him in to sending you a few for testing. Oldfeller scoped his Steyr.

If you take your bolt apart make not there the strike end (actually this is the end of the firing pin and it has a slot in it) because the striker housing screws on to it and if you don't screw it back to the same position your firing pin tension is changed. For someone not famaliar with taking bolts apart the M95 bolt is tricky. I have a disk around somewhere with pictures and text on it. I'll see if I can find it.

Joe

[Buckshot]

..................One other little addendum. Someone mentioned the extractors. They are made out of Unobtanium. You'd just about have to buy another carbine to get a spare extractor. My suggestion is to feed from the magazine so the rim slides up under the extractor's claw vs it having to snap over. It has a long tail which extends well inside the bolt body. Should it break you are well up Shiess's creek, sans paddle.

Due to their scarcity there have been several people with access to machine tools get all jazzed up about producing them. The farthest along any one attempt got was one guy who worked in, or whose relatives owned a machine shop. He got samples of 8x56R extractors and 8x57 conversion extractors and actually made some prototypes. These went out to the people who had supplied examples and the report back was overall they worked.

IIRC the price was somehting like $35 each. If you needed one it was a small price to pay vs having an inoperative rifle. Yet I haven't seen them offered anywhere, and as many of these little carbines as there are out there you'd think that you would.

................Buckshot

[Wayne Smith]

After reading comments here I took the Lee mold off my order. I'm considering NEI's #98A, a .331-200-GC-DD that really looks like a bore rider nose. I won't do anything until I've slugged breach and muzzle, and not until I've saved the xcratch to pay nor only for what I've bought but the mold, too. If anyone has any experience with that design I'd appreciate hearing of it in the meantime.

Until then I guess I'll just shoot condom's out of it, once I get some brass. Until then Mil Surplus, almost certainly corossive and I'll treat the barrel as if it is corossive.