sandwich wrap paper

[jon skorepa]

i tried to load 28 cal double chase wrapped bullets today. seemed a little difficult to breach seat dry but with some extra force went in. used a dowel to tap it out. paper marked by rifling but not damaged. this type of paper is fairly tough to tear and is dry wax lubricated to resist moisture and grease. i am hopeful that it will work nicely when shot. has any one tried this type paper before? perhaps a dab of lube of choice would do ya to ease breach seating. tks jon

[303Guy]

Interesting. I've heard of 'wax wrap' patches but do not remember any details. If they go in without crinkling, shoot 'em and see what happens! OK don't go by what I say - I have no experience in that regard.:mrgreen: But I am interested to hear what folks have to say!

[jon skorepa]

i will try them next week at the range.i .5 own and run a restaurant soooooo my time is not mine.

[303Guy]

Aahh yeah! You guys are sado masechistst (however you spell it it!:mrgreen:):groner: I had dinner out with my wife the other night and I was thinking of the hours you good folks must spend working! :holysheep

Nevertheless, I look forward to your report back!:drinks:

[leftiye]

The rest of us are sadistic machinists, er...

[jon skorepa]

303guy thank you for understanding my life work and constraints.i will give a report as soon as possible. tks jon

[mroliver77]

I assume we are talking about what I call "waxed paper"? Thats what it says on the box too. I tried some the other day and preliminary results looked good. Paper came right off at muzzle but was not shredded. It was a very wimpy load though.I also tried some "freezer wrap" that seems to have a dry side and a waxy side.I tried it with the "dry" side to the boolit and wax to the bore. These shot ok too. No fancy tests just load a few and shoot at a target. If boolit hits nose first with no canting and there is something that looks like a group I call this a preliminary success and worth doing some real load work on.

Jay

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I don't know about that roll waxed paper for sandwiches like I still use, but I can tell you that common brown paper lunch bag paper(not the store purchase little brown bag paper) makes good patches and has tough fibers. Along that line, baker's parchment for lining big baking pans is good if you need a thick paper application. BvT

[jon skorepa]

im not speaking about waxed paper but dry waxed commercial restaurant sandwitch leaf papers in a box. think deli food sheets. jon

[303Guy]

I got some paper that our McDonalds use in their take-away boxes. It looks like thin tracing paper and I thought it was promising - but - it does not wet well and does not apply well and it does not shrink evenly. However, that was before I started dry wrapping. Then again, I don't have a problem with what I use now so no need to try it again.:roll:

[RMulhern]

Here's what I've got to say:

Some DA is gonna keep messing around with 'odd-ball' type non-conventional paper patching until one day......a rifle is gonna explode, barrel burst, causing either a loss of life, or loss of limbs, vision, hands, fingers, etc.!!

[Lead pot]

Rick.

There is no use banging your head against the wall with some of these guys concoctions they come up with.
They think as long as you use a lead bullet that they will stay in a safe zone with the pressure curb, well some day it will bite them in the arsch.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Are we talking bout the same bunch of guys that shoot 3-4 inch groups at 50 yards and Tell you thats a Elk Round at 450 yards?

Oh well.

KW
The Lunger

[giz189]

Here's what I've got to say:

Some DA is gonna keep messing around with 'odd-ball' type non-conventional paper patching until one day......a rifle is gonna explode, barrel burst, causing either a loss of life, or loss of limbs, vision, hands, fingers, etc.!! RMulhern, I have been reading the Black Powder PP Forum the last couple of days, and have seen all these ideas. I must have missed it or didn't see it, but would you and some of the other guys who shoot in competition tell us what kind of paper you use? I have been using 16lb onion skin with a thickness of .015. Is this a 'conventional PP paper'? Thanks.:drinks:

[RMulhern]

Griz

15/1000 is just a 'tat' thick for what I do! With .446" diameter bullets I use a paper measuring .0015" in thickness! For .441" to .444" bullets I use a 9# paper available from Buffalo Arms Co. in Sandpoint, Idaho. The 9# mics at about .0029" thickness!:drinks:

[montana_charlie]

I have been using 16lb onion skin with a thickness of .015. Is this a 'conventional PP paper'?
Onionskin paper is used commonly enough to be called 'conventional'. Some get picky over the percentage of cotton fiber ('rag') in it...usually 25% or 100%.

I have never seen any 16# onionskin. That doesn't mean much, because I wasn't looking back when onionskin was a common paper. But, I have only found 9# stuff...and the paper I acquired is .0019" thick.

Wanting a little more thickness, I have looked at 16# paper, but it is always called 'vellum'...not onionskin. And, I haven't found any information on it's thickness, so haven't bought any. They also don't seem to be much interested in specifying the rag content (if any) of vellum paper.

Do you have any other specific questions concerning your paper?

CM

[Lead pot]

7.5#, 8#, 9#, 16# onion skin don't mean that the 7.5# is thinner than the the 8-9-or 16#.
I have 100% cotton 7.5# onion skin that is .00183 thick and I have some 9# 100% that is .00154 thick and some that is .0022 thick.
I have 6 boxes 500 sheets each from 75% and 100% cotton and they are all different in thickness.
I will not use paper that has a gloss to it because of the high clay content it has.
Kurt

[giz189]

Griz

15/1000 is just a 'tat' thick for what I do! With .446" diameter bullets I use a paper measuring .0015" in thickness! For .441" to .444" bullets I use a 9# paper available from Buffalo Arms Co. in Sandpoint, Idaho. The 9# mics at about .0029" thickness!:drinks: Rick, my typing skills are none to good either. Should have read .0015. Sorry. Just checked my paper box too, it is 9# not 16.

[giz189]

Well, I think Lead Pot answered my question about the paper. I bought what the newspaper outfitters office in our town had left when I decided that 9# onion skin was what I wanted to use. They said it was the last they would have. So I bought the box of it. It was on display in the top half of the box it came in and has no brand name on it. It just has written 9# onion skin on the side of the box and it is between.0015 and .0017 thick. I have been using a 450 dia straight sided bullet and patching up to 456dia or close to 457 dia. Sorry can't afford the Sharps right now and have to shoot it in a 1871 BR. Only plan to use it hunting though, and shots will be 125 yds or less. Getting about a 2.5 to 3" group at 100 yds with it. Trying to fine tune it a little more. Also, have some .441 bullets to try with it. Oh yeah, forgot to mention using BP only.

[montana_charlie]

I have been using a 450 dia straight sided bullet and patching up to 456dia or close to 457 dia.
I think you and I are the only ones (here) doing that with BP...except for Kurt.
He's a trans-patch-tite who sometimes runs around as a 'groover'.

CM

[Lead pot]

:bigsmyl2: Charlie I shoot six different black powder calibers and I don't lock myself in with just one way patching a bullet either .0005 under bore diameter or groove diameter depending on what the throat allows nand bullet design or using a greasers.
I shoot what it takes to get every 1/4" I can get out of these fine rifles:wink:

Kurt

[powderburnerr]

Charlie ,
Helix makes a 25 % cotton and a 100% cotton vellum and it is right at 3 tho,office max sells it both ways . it is in the drafting dept and has a blue cover...............Dean

[giz189]

I think you and I are the only ones (here) doing that with BP...except for Kurt.
He's a trans-patch-tite who sometimes runs around as a 'groover'.

CM Wellll, I guess i am a trans-patch-tite too, cause I shoot GG in my Marlin CB. However, I shot 3 pp gould bullets with same last December and it shot a lot more accurate that the GG Gould did. Both are plenty accurate for my hunting purposes though. I ain't gonna get a shot much over a hundred yards and both will do 1 - 2" at that range. Now if I could ever get into competition, I might have to sell all three 'less expensive' 45-70s I own and trade a couple of AR's or M1A or some such for an 1874 Sharps, from one of the Montana companies. :bigsmyl2:

[giz189]

Griz

15/1000 is just a 'tat' thick for what I do! With .446" diameter bullets I use a paper measuring .0015" in thickness! For .441" to .444" bullets I use a 9# paper available from Buffalo Arms Co. in Sandpoint, Idaho. The 9# mics at about .0029" thickness!:drinks: RMulhern, Thanks for the info. I have a mold from Dan at MM that casts a 441 dia boolit. However, the ones I have shot have been a tad on the skinny side I think, with the paper I have been using. Also, I can easily seat them with my thumb, which is okay I guess in competition, but these are loose enough I could very easily leave the boolit in the barrel when I unloaded the rifle without shooting or just with the muzzle pointed towards the ground I think. I will probably order some of the paper you talked about that was .0029 and try it. :lovebooli

[giz189]

I think you and I are the only ones (here) doing that with BP...except for Kurt.
He's a trans-patch-tite who sometimes runs around as a 'groover'.

CMCharlie what kind of accuracy are you getting with your rifle? My Bufalo Classic shoots about 2.5 to 3" at 100 yds so far, I am still experimenting. I bought some tapered boolits from Buffalo Arms and they shot better than my straight sides did, but I want to use my mold, simply because I purchased it ($100) before I knew much of what went on with PP boolits. I am limited to a overal length of 2.480 - 2.490 or I can barely get the action to close. With the tapered boolits, they stick further up into the rifling and I can load a longer length and also a bit more powder. My ss boolits have a big meplat and the purchased ones are kind of round nose, another reason I wanted to work up a decently accurate hunting load with my boolit.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie what kind of accuracy are you getting with your rifle?
Well, since you asked...

I don't often post pictures of my targets, because they usually are not just simple records of a group I fired. They almost always have some 'complication' which requires explanation...because I often do some kind of 'dinking around' in addition to just shooting at the target.

This is my most recent, and the only target I still have laying around.
I went out to deposit fifteen PP bullets in my 'snowbank account', and set the target up to use as an aiming point.
I also knew my front sight needed to be drifted right a little. The day was cold, but had not a breath of wind, so I carried along a hammer and punch.

Here comes the explanation...

With my tang sight set at mechanical -0- I fired the first round from a dry bore, which landed off the paper at 'F'.

The next three sighting 'groups' are two shots separated by some elevation tweaks, but primarily being moved in response to drifting the front. Those are S1, S2, and S3.

Sighters S4, S5, and S6 were moved only with rear sight adjustments, trying to get to the X ring. But, when I was down to only five rounds remaining, I did a final tweak and fired them 'for score', as it were. That produced the triangle of hits just low and left of the middle. The hole in the brown paper backing is a little oblong because it is actually two hits.

Since the final 'group' is pretty tight, and the two-shot sighters were all pretty 'close coupled', I guess I can say the PP bullets I am using are pretty accurate...at 100 yards. I haven't tried them further than that, yet.

I like to think of this target as displaying four, consecutive, sub-MOA groups...separated by sight adjustments.

These were .452" Money bullets patched to .457", which is a bit smaller than my groove diameter. I will soon have a mould which throws a .454" bullet.
It probably won't shoot any better, but it will not fall out of the cases if I forget to handle them right.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=2174

The primary mission for that day was the snowbank deposit, and I have already posted pictures of those recovered bullets.

CM

[Lead pot]

There you see!! you been giving Steve hell all these days for a bad mould and as it turned out they are shooting pretty good EH??

Kurt

[montana_charlie]

There you see!! you been giving Steve hell all these days for a bad mould and as it turned out they are shooting pretty good EH??

Kurt
Wrong mould, Kurt. This one was made by Rick Kalynuik...and he produced the Money nose accurately...from the same drawing Steve Brooks got.

Brooks gave me one of his 'elliptical' noses.
I never said it was a 'bad' mould. I have admitted it is very well made.
I said it was not the mould I ordered...and he was not open to any 'adjustments'.
CM

[Don McDowell]

Well you might be ahead of the curve with that Brooks mould, sounds like the eliptical is going to replace the money, as the fad of the year bullet.

[montana_charlie]

I'm not one to try to keep up with the latest fad. The Money design is 'modern' enough for me. The mould from Brooks turned out to be too small, anyway (not his fault), so I won't be using it unless I trip over some pretty thick paper.
CM

[Lead pot]

What is the cast diameter Charlie??

[giz189]

Those surely look 'minute of elk or deer or moose to me.' I have not saved any targets as it has been several weeks since I tried my last batch out. I have about 20 to do a final sight in and test group with. When I get off my butt and go do it.

[montana_charlie]

What is the cast diameter Charlie??
If you are asking about the Brooks mould, it is .450".
CM

[Lead pot]

If it was 4 or 5 thousands smaller in diameter I would offer to buy that mould from you.

Kurt

[montana_charlie]

If it was 4 or 5 thousands smaller in diameter I would offer to buy that mould from you.

Kurt
Yup. You said the same thing last time you asked about it...

If it was that small, I would try some patching to bore for my own edification...but I probably wouldn't like it unless I modified my chamber.

CM

[Lead pot]

I dont remember asking Charlie, sorry.

Kurt

[montana_charlie]

I dont remember asking Charlie, sorry.

Kurt
No problemo, Bud. I thought maybe you had a new idea to work on.
CM

[Lead pot]

I don't have a proper lead for that diameter unless I breach seat it.
The 5 degree lead I put in the in the Pedersoil will except a .448 naked bullet but that is about it.
A .446 is perfect in the other .45-90 but anything larger in diameter I would have to do the unforgivable and run it through a sizing die.

Kurt

[montana_charlie]

It would probably work fine for one of the guys on the Smokeless PP forum...who uses notebook, or computer paper. But they all like bullets with grease grooves in them.
CM

[longbow]

Not all Charlie.

I don't do a lot of PP shooting but when I do I use smooth boolits from a home made mould.

I do knurl it for my .303 to bring diameter up about 0.003" which works well in my .303 Lee Enfield. It doesn't like the smaller boolit but gets along with the knurled boolit.

That's something you might try for the Brooks mould if it is undersize. A light knurling may get you the diameter that you want. Or for that matter lapping might bring diameter up to what you want as well as correcting the eliptical nose.

You are right though, most of the guys on the smokeless forum seem to use standard GG moulds sized down before patching or after patching or both.

Longbow

[montana_charlie]

Not all Charlie.

You are right though, most of the guys on the smokeless forum seem to use standard GG moulds sized down before patching or after patching or both.

Longbow
You are correct. When I used "all", that was an absolute...which is almost never supportable.

I read a lot of the smokeless threads, but reply to them only occasionally.
I learned my lesson about SP PP Methodology when I replied to a thread (a long time ago) where a guy was asking which of his greasers he should size down for paper patching. Being unfamiliar with such a novel concept, I suggested he "do it right" and look into a smooth-sided design that casts at the desired diameter. I mentioned the improved aerodynamics as the 'kicker' which made it the only reasonable route.

BOY, did I get my head handed to me!!! I got it from so many sides, I felt like Custer.

So, though I know there are exceptions, to me "all smokeless paper patchers size down greasers for paper patching"...or at least all of the leaders in that methodology appear to.

The glaring exception is 303guy. Not content to squash a greaser from a Lee two-banger...he decides what he thinks he wants, and drills a mould for it.
I don't like any of his bullets, but I sure like his style.

CM

[longbow]

Charlie:

I make simple pushout moulds like the old Ideal PP moulds. They are smooth sided and I make a reamer to produce the size I want for paper patching so I don't have to size before or after patching.

The first was for my .44 Marlin since it has a typical oversize Marlin barrel and I couldn't find a mould fat enough for GG boolits, the second was for my .308 and modeled after the Lyman 310620 at 200 grs. except no grooves at all (the Lyman had very shallow grooves).

If made like the Ideal with sliding nose form the weight is adjustable which is convenient. If the mould is properly made the boolits about drop out without needing the ejector. Makes me wonder why smooth split moulds are made.

Like I said though I do not do a lot of paper patching so am certainly not an expert by any means. Also, I am not going to claim my methods would win any trophies in competition either. They have worked for what I wanted them for so that's what matters to me.

All my experience (such as it is) is with smokeless powder... so far anyway. Since this is the BP paper patching forum I will leave it there.

Every time I log on I learn something here. It is all good stuff.

Longbow

[montana_charlie]

The glaring exception is 303guy. Not content to squash a greaser from a Lee two-banger...he decides what he thinks he wants, and drills a mould for it.
I don't like any of his bullets, but I sure like his style.
Charlie:

I make simple pushout moulds like the old Ideal PP moulds. They are smooth sided and I make a reamer to produce the size I want for paper patching so I don't have to size before or after patching.
Oh, Yeah!
I didn't forget that you do it, too, but I may have lost track of your username as being the other one (besides 303guy) who does it.

I like your style, too.

CM

[longbow]

Right back at ya charlie. I always enjoy your posts.

[RMulhern]

Man....there's some WEIRD folks over there!! They're the kind that would cut both their legs off at the knees to try to invent another set that they could walk on!!

WEIRD!![smilie=w::shock::veryconfu[smilie=w: