WC846 in .308 & .30-06 for semi-autos?

[JKH]

Hey Guys,

I would like to load some quantity of plinking/practice loads for my semi-auto's (M14s, Garand's, AR10, FAL), I have 16 pounds of WC846 which is awesome for jacketed bullet loads.

I am hoping this powder will be useable for cast lead and reliably cycle my auto-loaders with reasonable (small/cheap loads!) loads. I would like to use my LEE boolit that was designed by Ed Harris for the7.62x39 primarily but also can use my LEE 180 grain boolit (I prefer the other as the profile will theoretically give me beter feeding characterstics).

If I can get anywhere near normal military ball accuracy it would be great, I have lots of standard ammo stocked up and lots of components but would like to practice/last on the cheap, it aint like the old days when I could buy Argentine .308/7.62 ball for under $150/1000 rouunds shipped :cry:

Also, before anyone pipes up, I HAVE searched the board for weeks looking for info, especially Bruce B's post on the M1A/M14, so far no good [smilie=b:

Any help will be greatly appreciated:smile:

Jeff

[MUSTANG]

I have settled on 43.3 Grains of WC846 for my 30-06 loads; this duplicates the M2 Ball ballistics for me in my M1917 rifle.

__________________________________________________ ______________

The following data was collected using a 43.8 Grain charge of WC846, just slightly a little to hot for M2 Ball ballistics. Velocity Chronographed with a "Chrony".



.30-06 - Using Russian 147 Grain Pulled Jacketed Bullet - WC-846 Powder

Date: 20-May-12 OAL 3.340
Temp: ~ 95 degrees Gas Check: N/A
Wind: 5mph Lube: N/A
Wind Direction: From 12 O'Clock Powder: WC846
Rifle: M-1917 Powder Charge: 43.8Gr
Action: Bolt (Iron Sights) Kicker: N/A
Barrel Twist 1 in 10" Kicker Charge: N/A
Bullet Sized to: 0.308
Bullet: Russian Ball .308


Bullet Speed in Feet Per Second (Chrony Chronograph)
1 2790
2 2833
3 2750
4 2770
5 2751

Avg (Mean)Speed: 2779
Standard Deviation:
Spread in FPS: 83
Computed RPM: 200074

Notes:
1. Shooting Distance was ~ 75 Yards.
2. Used bullets pulled & resized to .308 from Russian Mosian Nagant Ammo.




http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_220904fd51ca5ec2c2.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5542)

[catmandu]

Mustang,
Thanks for the details.
One question, Did you have to use a magnum primer? Other posts I've read have issues with hang fires with this powder, especially in cold areas.

Some recommend a CCI 34? Primer. I've never seen them.

Paul in WNY

[koehn,jim]

CCI 34 is a Nato spec primer and has a harder than normal cup. Many of the US Military rifle have free floating fireing pins. If the cartridge has any resistance going in you risk an out of battery detonation, hence the thicker cup. It prevents bad things.

[catmandu]

Thanks for the reply Jim, now that you mention that I remember reading about the primer caution and slam fires in Zediker's books.

Is the 34 primer a magnum? Or just thicker cup?

Paul

[JKH]

I forgot I had started this thread :)

I finally worked up a decent cast lead .308 load for my M14 clone with WC846, 25grns under a Lee 200 grn boolit, 1/4 sheet single ply TP rolled in a tube and a moderate crimp with Lee FCD, 50 yards offhand 5 shot group under 2", full cycling of rifle with bolt lock back on last round, gonna try the same load for '06 in my Garand's.

You do not need CCI 34's if your M14 or Garand is in proper working order with in spec parts, where slam fires occur it is from dropping the bolt on a chambered single round and almost assuredly even in those instances there was most likely a high primer, make sure all your primers are seated flush or below the head and dont load single rounds without a SLED or fed from a mag and keep your weapons in spec, you wont have to worry about slam fires or out of battery incidents with any primer.

Jeff

[catmandu]

Thank you for the info on the slam fires. Your advise makes sense.

Quite a difference between 25 and 43 grs. Well I guess this powder has a large sweet spot.

Paul

[swheeler]

I have settled on 43.3 Grains of WC846 for my 30-06 loads; this duplicates the M2 Ball ballistics for me in my M1917 rifle.

__________________________________________________ ______________

The following data was collected using a 43.8 Grain charge of WC846, just slightly a little to hot for M2 Ball ballistics. Velocity Chronographed with a "Chrony".



.30-06 - Using Russian 147 Grain Pulled Jacketed Bullet - WC-846 Powder

Date: 20-May-12 OAL 3.340
Temp: ~ 95 degrees Gas Check: N/A
Wind: 5mph Lube: N/A
Wind Direction: From 12 O'Clock Powder: WC846
Rifle: M-1917 Powder Charge: 43.8Gr
Action: Bolt (Iron Sights) Kicker: N/A
Barrel Twist 1 in 10" Kicker Charge: N/A
Bullet Sized to: 0.308
Bullet: Russian Ball .308


Bullet Speed in Feet Per Second (Chrony Chronograph)
1 2790
2 2833
3 2750
4 2770
5 2751

Avg (Mean)Speed: 2779
Standard Deviation:
Spread in FPS: 83
Computed RPM: 200074

Notes:
1. Shooting Distance was ~ 75 Yards.
2. Used bullets pulled & resized to .308 from Russian Mosian Nagant Ammo.




http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_220904fd51ca5ec2c2.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5542)

Mustang; those velocities sure seem high to me, even with your 4+ in of barrel? Could be the bullet or rifle, Russian 147 gr are .310" diameter? Must have a way faster lot of 846?

4-14-2003-30-06 Savage 110
150 gr speer
wlrm primer
45.0-846-2626 fps
46.0-2670
47.0-2700

[MUSTANG]

Mustang,
Thanks for the details.
One question, Did you have to use a magnum primer? Other posts I've read have issues with hang fires with this powder, especially in cold areas.

Some recommend a CCI 34? Primer. I've never seen them.

Paul in WNY



CatMandu:

I used a standard CCI 200 Large Rifle primer for these loads. These are from lot #M14Z; bought them about 23 years ago in a lot of 25,000. Consistency remains good with them; unfortunately I only have about 3000 left so it will be tiime for another large buy next year.

[MUSTANG]

:killingpc
Mustang; those velocities sure seem high to me, even with your 4+ in of barrel? Could be the bullet or rifle, Russian 147 gr are .310" diameter? Must have a way faster lot of 846?

4-14-2003-30-06 Savage 110
150 gr speer
wlrm primer
45.0-846-2626 fps
46.0-2670
47.0-2700

SWheeler:

I too was very surprised at the velocity achieved with this load based on the Charge Weight. Originally the Russian ball I used was .311 as I gauged it with a micrometer; so I had previously sized all of the Russian ball to .308 diameter using a LEE .308 sizer (for use in 30-06 and .308 rifles). Incorrect ball diameter is not the source of higher velocities for the charge weight.

I agree with your assumption that this lot of WC846 is burning a little hotter. As a point of sharing; I bought six (6) eight (8) pound jugs of this WC846 powder from Weidner's. They are all labeled as Lot # 61142. Just proves that there is significant wisdom in reducing by 10% to 15% on charge weight when developing a new load, or changing powder to a new lot. Also reinforces that a Chronograph "Is our Friend".


Once I have the 3000 Rounds of 30-06 loaded; I will be experimenting to develop a Cast Boolit load using WC846; first for my M1917, then for my 1903A3 and M-1's. Eventually moving on to my numerous .308 bolt guns and M-14's. As I think about it; I may need to procure another 48lbs of WC846 if the loads begin to look promising.

[swheeler]

:killingpc

SWheeler:

I too was very surprised at the velocity achieved with this load based on the Charge Weight. Originally the Russian ball I used was .311 as I gauged it with a micrometer; so I had previously sized all of the Russian ball to .308 diameter using a LEE .308 sizer (for use in 30-06 and .308 rifles). Incorrect ball diameter is not the source of higher velocities for the charge weight.

I agree with your assumption that this lot of WC846 is burning a little hotter. As a point of sharing; I bought six (6) eight (8) pound jugs of this WC846 powder from Weidner's. They are all labeled as Lot # 61142. Just proves that there is significant wisdom in reducing by 10% to 15% on charge weight when developing a new load, or changing powder to a new lot. Also reinforces that a Chronograph "Is our Friend".


Once I have the 3000 Rounds of 30-06 loaded; I will be experimenting to develop a Cast Boolit load using WC846; first for my M1917, then for my 1903A3 and M-1's. Eventually moving on to my numerous .308 bolt guns and M-14's. As I think about it; I may need to procure another 48lbs of WC846 if the loads begin to look promising.

Yes, I know lots can vary, have used several 846 from all three of the pull down guys, the lot I use now is two different numbers blended by me(16#) I guess the reason it caught my eye was I shoot 45.0 gr wc846 with 150 bullet in my 308, 2773 av fps and 43 grs with 168 SMK at 2562 av fps. I guess it shouldn't surprise me though, I've got two lots of 872 that are 200 fps apart at same loading in 264 WM. That is why start low and work up is sound advice, and yes a chrony has been my friend for a couple decades now.

[MUSTANG]

I received a PM asking if I would share how I intended to pursue a load for WC846 in my M1917 30-06 rifle. Thought other readers might be interested too; so the answer I provided in the PM follows. Each reader is responsible for their own loads, and they control the process they use at achieving their loads and the end results.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Given that I live in the Desert about 60 Miles north of Las Vegas, 110 degree days for the next 2 to 3 months will restrict my shooting because I have become to accustomed to AC or Shade and a fan so I will wait until September for temps to drop before I do range testing on developing my WC-846 Cast Boolit Loads.

As to your question of where and how I plan to approach the WC846 load development, I will:

1. Research what others have done; and use their shared data to form an educated set of assumptions in the load data planning. Cast Boolits has done a great service to the shooting community by creating a forum where we can share our individual findings. Currently there seems to be Very Limited data for WC-846 surplus powder; thus this particular string of postings.

2. My particular starting load for WC-846 in Cast Boolits will revolve around:
M1917 Rifle (has 1 in 10” twist)


Lee nominal 170 grain Flat Point Cast Boolit (C309-170-F)
RCBS nominal 165 grain Cast Boolit (.308-165-Sil)
RCBS nominal 200 grain Cast Boolit (.308-200-Sil)
Use of .014 thick Aluminum gas checks I fabricate myself
Use of Carnuba Red lube in my Lyman 450 sizer.
I will initially size all cast boolits to .310 for this rifle.

3. My first loads will be derived from “Extrapolating” a low end load through analysis of available data. In this case I will rely heavily upon a Cast Boolit load book I acquired many years ago, the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual Number 1 , published in 1986. This particular book lists a variety of loads (but not military surplus powders) for the RCBS 165 Sil boolit, plus others. I have extracted selected data for .308 and 30-06 from the manual below this discussion. I also refer to my copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook – Third Edition , published March 2002 (eleventh Printing). I find a comparable weight and shape boolit; and validate that the loads are similar for published data. If not, then a large dose of additional caution is required. I keep in mind that boolit design can have significant impact; as an example the bearing surface of a Loverin design is considerably different than an RCBS Sil designed bullet.

4. It is important to understand the general relationship of Powder Burning speeds if you seek to extrapolate load data. An example of a “Burn Rate” comparison Chart can be found at: http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/powder/powder.htm There are also many discussions and published data on Powder Burn Rates here in the Cast Boolit site. In this Chart we can see that WC-846 (#158) and BLC2 (#157) are close to the same burn rate. Comparisons must be made within the same chart; do not use a reference number on one chart to compare to a powder in another chart. Compare Powders, and not numbering sequence. Keep in mind that Surplus powders may be faster or slower from lot to lot.

5. As I review the data from the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual Number 1, I see that only in the .308 Rifle Data can I compare BLC-2 to SR4759; but SR4759 can be found in all four loadings I listed (both in .308 and 30-06). Since BLC-2 is close in Burn Rate to WC846; and I am able to compare BLC2 to SR4759; I can extrapolate for a WC846 load for these bullet types.

6. TO BE SAFE, I am going to go to the lowest data/velocity in this extrapolation; a charge of 21.0 grains for both the .308 and the 30-06 in the SR4759 powder listings. Since 4759 is slower than WC846, and I am going to the lowest charge, I should be safe.

7. BOTTOM LINE: I will prepare 5 rounds of 30-06 both the Lee 170gr and the RCBS 165gr boolits using 21.0 grains of WC846 as a starting point. I will then shoot these at ~100 yards over a chronograph. All rounds will be observed for “Pressure signs”. From these first groupings and the recorded velocity achieved, I will then start load development for optimum accuracy and velocity. When I get to what I believe to be the best mix of velocity and accuracy; I start shooting 10 round strings to validate results are consistent. Once I have completed this for the 165gr and 170gr Boolits; I will start over with the RCBS 200gr Sil boolit.


RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1 (Printed December 1986)

For RCBS 30-165-Sil Cast Bullet in .308 Rifle
Powder - BLC2 27.0 Grains = 1939fps

25.0 Grains = 1799fps

IMR SR 4759 25.0 Grains = 2073fps

23.0 Grains = 1908fps

*Keep in mind that SR4759 is a “Faster” Powder than BLC2



For RCBS 30-180-Sil Cast Bullet in .308 Rifle
Powder - BLC2 Not Listed for this Cast Bullet

IMR SR 4759 23.0 Grains = 1978fps

21.0 Grains = 1831fps



For RCBS 30-165-Sil Cast Bullet in .30-06 Rifle
Powder - BLC2 Not Listed for this Cast Bullet

IMR SR 4759 23.0 Grains = 1880fps

21.0 Grains = 1743fps


For RCBS 30-180-Sil Cast Bullet in .30-06 Rifle
Powder - BLC2 Not Listed for this Cast Bullet

IMR SR 4759 26.0 Grains = 2013fps

24.0 Grains = 1871fps

[catmandu]

Mustang,
Thank you for sharing you step by step process. It is very helpful to have another reloaders input on how to safely decide what next load to try. When I reload its just me, there is no one to validate any conclusions I may have erroneously drawn.

I also checked the sources you mentioned, the RCBS CB manual and the Lyman CBM. I also checked Hodgdon’s 25th and though they list loads for BL-C2 for jacketed, they do not list it under the CB load section. I have done many searches and have an Excel spreadsheet of loads used primarily from this forum or from links provided. I then can review trends and throw out any out liers and stay with conservative proven loads. I asked for your input because I have learned that there is a reason certain powders are not listed.

Yesterday I found a good article that has a good list of loads that were tried by the author and lists his relative success – at least in his guns. His loads are for the M1 Garand, the reliable cycling of the Garands action require a bit more powder than our bolt actions would. His listed loads with popular CBs are all in the 30’s. Here is the link.
http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/m1garandcast.htm

The index for this is found at:
http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/castingfellowspage1.htm

There is also another Ought Six article there.
http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/oughtsixcast.htm

Thank you for you help and maybe we can share our results as we move along.

Paul in WNY

[JKH]

Hey Guys,

Just a note on WC846 loads in .30-06, this is pertaining to jacketed bullet loads but may effect cast loads as well.

I noticed a few months back that some ball equivalent loads for 7.62 Russiam had hangfires and a few failed to fire, I pulled these down and found yellowish/green clumps in the powder amd asumed contamination from case lube. I shot some ball equivalent .30-06 loads today with the exact same issues and assumed lube or maybe even that the powder is going bad, I have shot at least 1K .308 ball loads anf perhaps 100 cast loads in my M14 clone with zero issues so was stumped.

I just did a lot of research on the web and found many shooters with the same issues in .30-06, seems that a magnum primer (like CCI#34's) is necessary for proper ignition of this ball powder in cases larger than .308 when the powder is at the front of the case.

I did try 846 in some '06 cast loads in my Garand but did not have any hang/misfires, nor any in my much reduced .308 M14 cast loads, I believe because of using either 3/4 grain dacron tuft or 1/4 sheet rolled up single ply toilet paper cylinders in both calibers to keep the charge tight to the case head/flash hole.

I will try CCI#34's for my '06 jacketed ball equiv loads and see if it helps, they may also prove to be very benefical for cast loads and eliminate the need for fillers. This may be why I saw a major accuracy improvement in my cast .308 M14 loads after adding fillers, they went from roughly 10"-12" groups down to 1.5 moa at 50 yards with all other variables being equal.
This powder certainly has potential but it seems being a ball type powder, AND have a flash deterent coating, makes it more difficult to get reliable/consistent ignition than true BL(C)-2

Hope this helps, post any follow up data/experience for us to ponder, personally I am not trying any cast '06/Garand loads till I see if I can get reliable jacketed ball equiv loads to work, I'm fairly content with my cast .308 M14 WC846 loads for now : )

Jeff

[catmandu]

Jeff,
Thanks for the good info, I know I will try Dacron with WC846.
I also read some posts about hangfires and recommend using a Magnum primer, or a specific primer that had no issues with a specified load.

What I don't understand is the clumps you found in your pull down loads. Since they were not fired the primer is not the issue. Have you checked your powder jug, or measure to see if they are the source?

Paul in WNY

[JKH]

Hey Paul,

The rounds that were pulled down I had ASSUMED to have dead primers, when in fact the HAD fired. I believe the clumping and yellow/green discoloration is a result of the gases generated by the primer, the clumps were always at the base of the bullet and were actually fused, all remaining powder was normal.

I did check my jug of powder by shaking thoroughly and dumping out several pounds, I slowly poured it back into the jug, no clumps, no discoloration, no unusual odor. I also contacted Jeff Bartlett and confirmed all this.

So, at least for my lot of WC846 it definitely will require a magnum primer, I have a jug of WC846T that I may try with standard large primers, it does not have a flash deterrent so may light much easier, otherwise I am going to try WC844

Jeff

[catmandu]

Jeff,
That makes more sence. I looked back at the article I linked to above and quoting Mr.Carlson -

"My trials included using standard rifle primers and comparing the new CCI # 34 primers in the same loads and I found for the most part the CCI did a better job. In some cases, cutting the groups in half. These primers are specially made for 7.62 mm NATO, 30-06 & 7.62X39 mm ammunition. "
So your conclusion makes sence.

Good Shooting.

Paul in WNY

[MUSTANG]

Catmandu:

I thought I would ride along on some of the thoughts and recommendations that both you and JKH have made. Seems to be a common observation that a light Cast Boolit load using WC846 will require a case filler, so I incorporated that into my initial loading today. Also, since I had some time to take pictures along the way; I have incorporated some step by step documentation of using a filler as I executed this load. Hopefully it can prove useful to others watching this thread (both new and old to the Cast Boolit endeavor).

Mustang


Click on each Picture to Enlarge and read text






http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090500896d1f40b5.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5964)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090500896d213322.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5965)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090500896d22487a.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5966)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090500896ff580d6.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5967)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090500896ff6b181.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5968)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090500896ff7a796.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5969)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_220905008972829433.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5970)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_2209050089728395fd.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5971)



Additional Pictures appear on next thread posted.

[MUSTANG]

Catmandu:

The rest of the Pics follow:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_220905008972853434.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5972)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_220905008974965878.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5973)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090500897df042e0.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5974)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090500897df167d5.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5975)


Well - Now waiting for the opportunity to send them down range.

[JKH]

Very nice Mustang!

The simplest way I found to use 1/4 sheets of TP in my M14 .308/7.62 loads, is to roll the sheet lentghways into a tube slightly smaller than the case neck, then insert just prior to seating the boolit, the TP tube sticks out of the neck slightly and the boolit nicely compresses it against the powder charge while basically filling the entire air space.

My M14 loads went from 8 to 10 moa @ 50 yards (rested), to 1moa consistently. I hope to try new loads in '06 for my Garands soon and will most likely use the "wad" method due to the greater space in the '06 and will most likely go to a magnum primer, first will be M2 equivalent loads with magnum primers and tracers rounds with the bases plugged by hot glue, if I can get WC846 to behave with CCI 34's my loads will be less than 15 cents each : )

Please post your groups Mustang, what rifle will you be testing these loads in?

[MUSTANG]

Very nice Mustang!

The simplest way I found to use 1/4 sheets of TP in my M14 .308/7.62 loads, is to roll the sheet lentghways into a tube slightly smaller than the case neck, then insert just prior to seating the boolit, the TP tube sticks out of the neck slightly and the boolit nicely compresses it against the powder charge while basically filling the entire air space.

My M14 loads went from 8 to 10 moa @ 50 yards (rested), to 1moa consistently. I hope to try new loads in '06 for my Garands soon and will most likely use the "wad" method due to the greater space in the '06 and will most likely go to a magnum primer, first will be M2 equivalent loads with magnum primers and tracers rounds with the bases plugged by hot glue, if I can get WC846 to behave with CCI 34's my loads will be less than 15 cents each : )

Please post your groups Mustang, what rifle will you be testing these loads in?


I'll be initially testing in my M1917; then my 03/A3. Once the bolt actions prove out a good accurate load; I'll migrate into M1Garand (I have 5 of them). Then perhaps on to the M14/M1a1.

I'll post groups when I get useful data (Still running 110 (+) here North of Las Vegas; so waiting on some cooler weather). The "Monsoons" are coming out of Arizona early this year; so maybe I'll get a chance in the next few weeks.

[MUSTANG]

Well it was slightly cooler this morning, so I sucked it up after feeding the horses and moving the irrigation watering and decided to head to the range. By the time I had loaded the jeep with the targets, rifles, and shooting support equipment it was all ready 90 degrees at 0730. Oh well; it was an enjoyable, albeit short morning, where I was able to collect some data on reduced WC846 loads using a Cast Boolit.

Load Data used:

Powder: WC846 - 21 Grains with ¼ sheet of TP (Toilet Paper) filler over the Powder

Primer: CCI 200 Large Rifle

Cast Boolit: Lee 170 RNFP, .014 Aluminum Gas Check, Sized in .311 Lyman Sizing die.

Lube: Carnuba Red



I was surprised by better accuracy than I expected with this Cast Boolit Load. I shot an 8 round 2 ¼” x 3” group from 75 yards off a sand bag rest.

There may be some promise here for further Boolit Load development, when I compare to jacketed where I am getting 1.75" x 1.75", 10 round groups with the Russian 147Gr. Ball at 75 yards from the sand bag using 43.3 Grains WC846. :cool:

My Load and Record Data is attached as a Picture. Hopefully it's readable. Click on the thumb nail below to see a larger image on the screen.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090500c506285cc0.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6002)


Key observations:

1. Ignition was slow; approaching what I experience with my 50Cal Hawken
2. Fairly low velocity, I'll look at increasing powder charge - Which may address #1 above.
3. "Chasing the Bull" is indicated in the shot string; perhaps I'll use a different type Target for next test.


Mustang

[catmandu]

Mustand & JKH,
Sorry for the delay, I've been out of town.

I really enjoyed the How2 posts for the TP. When I first heard you speak of it I was doubtfull, but after your post I feel like "I can do that!"

One question on using TP, I was reading in the NRA American Rifleman archives about using fillers. They reported that Dacron was superior to Cream of Wheat because of its low mass. They felt that under certain rare conditions COW could bulge a barrel or act abrasive due to its greater mass than Dacron.

How do you feel about TP? Limit to 1/4 sheet? I'm learning and not trying to tell you about how to do this. I just want to get a question answered. :)

Mustang - What program did you use to collect the log data you posted?

Thanks again,

Paul in WNY

[JKH]

Hey Paul,

I cant speak on COW having not tried it yet, I was going to use it to fire form .303 British cases in my .410, I have seen it mentioned a good number of times hear as a filler so a search should answer most of you questions.

As far as TP, it shreds and partially burns upon firing, depending on powder and load you may fine few scraps, or it will look like confetti : ) To my knowledge there is no danger in its use. Dacron in a roughly 3/4 grain tuft shoved in the case to fill the airspace works well, there has been evidence.that if it, or similar Kapok, is packed into a tight wad it can cause chamber rings. I have had equal fortune using dacron or TP in my .308 M14 loads but find using the TP rolled up as described being much simpler, and more consistent, plucking and weighing tiny tufts of Dacron is a pain !

Jeff

[MUSTANG]

Catmandu:

There are numerous shooters on this and other Forum's that warn to NOT Use COW (Cream of Wheat) as a filler for the reasons you mention.

I use the 1/4 piece of TP in .30 cals. Have never used it in smaller or larger caliber cases.

I use Excel for my data sheets. Pics get imported/pasted into the field where the target appears on the data sheet. If you think it might be useful and your interested; I'll email you a copy with the file attached. If your familiar with Excel, you can modify any fields you desire.

I noted your Avatar; are you a member of the Old Crow Association?

Mustang

[JKH]

Mustang,

Slow ignition or hangfires is an indication that a magnum primer is needed.for your '06 loads, the TP filler is most likely why you didnt experience "duds" from lack of ignition, in .308 cases and smaller there is no issue and standard (at least CCI LR) primers work well. I have about 45 rounds of '06 loaded with Nosler 155grn Palma match bullets to pull down and load with a different powder, or transfer the loads to fresh cases with CCI 34's, I tried some.of these loads in a new to me 03A3 and they were worse than a flintlock! 2 were duds and when pulled down I found the primers had fired and blew the powder column into a partially fused mass discolered yellow/green jambed into the neck, I had the exact same experiencr using WC846 in ball equivalent loads in 7.62x54 Russian.

Jeff

[catmandu]

MUSTANG,
Yes I use Excel dailey. Please send a sample worksheet. Good ideas are where you find them.
As far as the Old Crow Association, no I'm not, I did work on EA-6s ECM / DECM and thats about as close as I got.

Thanks in Advance.

Paul in WNY

[MUSTANG]

I got out to the Range Saturday to do a Follow on Load Test of the WC846 with a Lee 170RNFP Cast Boolit. This is a follow on Load Test from the results published in Post #22 of this Thread. For this session, I increased the Charge of WC846 from the previous 21 Grains, to a load of 31 Grains. Temperatures were on the warm side (106 Degrees) so there may be some shooter error creeping into the results, but I was consciously trying to ensure consistency.

This Load Test string had an increased average velocity of almost 700fps; but it appears that accuracy suffered as the previous 2 ¼” X 3” group has apparently opened to 4” x 3 ½ “. It also appears that the larger Powder Charge is resulting in a higher impact for the group. A comparison of the previous group and Saturdays Group appears blow (Click on picture to enlarge).


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090502035a1da13d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6151)



My Load Data record for last Saturdays Test is attached as a PDF.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Given the larger group on Saturday, I think I will drop down the Charge for another round of testing. Since I was able to avoid the delayed ignition problem I originally encountered, I am planning to conduct two 10 round tests.
String #1:
Charge of 26 Grains of WC846; with the ¼ sheet of TP as a case filler. Continue to use CH Taper Crimp Die.
String #2:
Go back to the original 21 Grains of WC846; but use two (2) ¼ sheets of TP as a case filler (That would be ½ sheet for those quick in the Math Department, but I will still cut into ¼ sheets and place two in the case). Continue to use CH Taper Crimp Die. Thoughts are this may avoid the slow ignition problem and keep the same or better accuracy than encountered back in my July Load Test without going to a Magnum Primer.


Mustang

[MUSTANG]

I had debated not posting this information since I know that there is more to work on than just the Powder adjustments. But; I thought some readers might get some use out of this, even if it’s a simple “Been there Myself”.

While out Saturday, I also shot another style Boolit with the WC846 load of 31 Grains. I hand weighed and selected some RCBS 165 – Sil Boolits from a lot I cast last Spring. Average Velocity was 2055; but the group was atrocious. I new that this might be a problem because all of the Boolits are “Out of Round”, with the mold casting .307 one side - to .3095 when the Boolit is rotated 90 degrees. I’ve had this mold for at least 25 years stored in an ammo box so sending it back is not an option. I know that there are multiple Posts concerning out of Round in the Cast Boolits forum so I’ll do some research and reading to get some background and ideas before I proceed with ID/Corrective actions. Until the temperature here drops down into the 80’s at least, I’ll not be casting.

Below is the Target I shot (It would be very generous to call it a group).


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090502045408d0d5.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6155)


My Load Data used is attached as a PDF.

I think I’ll take some risk of wasting my time and drop the charge down to 26 Grains and see what if any affect that may have.

Mustang.

[MUSTANG]

We had a drop in temperatures Saturday Morning (High 90’s) so I got out to do some follow on testing of WC846 in the 30-06. I loaded 10 round strings for two other Cast Boolit types, the first a Lyman 311644 190 Grain Silhouette mold (old style purchased back in mid 1980’s) and the second an RCBS 308-165-Sil (165 Grain) mold.

I loaded the Lyman 311644 with a modest charge of 21 grains of WC846 and topped it with a ¼ sheet of TP (Double Ply Toilet Paper). The 9 round group produced was about 2 ¼ x 2 ¼ inches from 75 Yards, average velocity of 1539 fps. One round failed to chamber, with the nose section of the boolit having definite visible engraving from the lands and groves present from attempting to close the bolt on my M1917. This same round easily chambered in my 1903A3. Looks as if I will have to seat the Lyman 311644 slightly deeper than the 3.215 OAL for these loads (when intended for the M1917). I experienced the same problem with two other rounds (different loads and powder).

I loaded the RCBS 165 Sil somewhat hotter using 26 grains of WC846, and topped it with a ¼ sheet of TP (Double Ply Toilet Paper). The 13 rounds fired produced a group produced about 2 ½ x 3 ½ inches from 75 Yards, average velocity of 1725 fps. Need to explore using a heavier charge than 21 grains of WC846 with this boolit. After firing, all of the cases had heavy smoke from the shoulder are forward; some all the way back to the base of the case. This indicates that there is insufficient pressure to expand the brass to form a good gas seal which might be attributed to the Boolits being sized to .309; or insufficient powder to develop the required pressure. The RCBS mold will require some work since Boolits cast from it are out of round.

A visual comparison of the two strings follows (Click on the picture to enlarge).



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_220905031447a608b1.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6337)


I believe for me there is more work to do with these cast boolit types to get higher velocities and tighten groups before I move on to using them in my gas operated M-1 Garands and M-14 type rifles. Should give me something to do as we move into the fall and winter.
:Fire:


My Load Data Sheets for this Test session are attached as PDF’s.


Mustang.

[JKH]

Hey Mustang,

You will definitely need to increase your load, I get full function in my Polytech M14S using 25 grains WC846, the '06 will require more to cycle a Garand.

Jeff

[MUSTANG]

JKH:

I have reloaded a few more test loads and will run them over the Chronograph using the M1917 for testing. These are running a little hotter, in anticipation of moving to Tests in the Garand if they show acceptable velocity and groups. Hopefully get out to do that this Saturday.

Catmandu:

I responded to your PM.



In your PM you mentioned that you had a Garand in .308. Was this one of the ones converted by the US Navy to use aboard ships; or is it a Garand that was reworked to .308 by some of the "Civilian Armory's" that have been established to rebuild surplus military firearms?

I never had a .308 Garand, but did buy some of the Stainless Steel Inserts to temperately modify the Garand chamber to .308 (These were available and "Popular" In the mid 1980's. They were not "Sub Munition" cartridge holders that allow shooting a pistol caliber round; rather a filler of the chamber to shape it to fit the .308 Cartridge profile).

I had some success in HR, IH, and Springfield Garands I had at the time, and they all shot well with the inserts. Feeding was an off and on problem though, particularly in rapid fire strings. You used a Broken Shell Extractor to remove the insert when you wanted to return to .30-06 use.

I swore off these inserts when I loaned one to a buddy who wanted to give it a try in his Springfield Garand before he bought one. Well, long story short, he tried to extract it unsuccessfully, and I also tried the same unsuccessfully. Finally had to pay a gunsmith $50.00 to use a Chamber reamer to clean it out. (Back when $50.00 was a significant sum) At the time surplus 30-06 was plentiful at Gun Stores, Gun Shows, and through CMP; and relatively inexpensive in the scheme of things ,so I decided to remove them from my rifles and have had not used one since.

Mustang

[catmandu]

The Garand I just picked up at CMP is new. It has a new Criterion Barrel, new walnut stock, and is chambered for 308 Win, (not NATO). No insert.

Other than needing to be shot to break it in it seems to be perfect.
I already have 2 '06's so I figured a 308 would make sence. I could segregate the brass for the bolt guns and the 308 for the gas gun. That way I can use the Lee collett die for the bolt gun fodder without worring about mixing it up with the gas gun ammo. I can also size the expander to the gas gun so I won't upset the shoulders.

Paul in WNY

[MUSTANG]

:drinks:


Well got out to the Range yesterday and had a bit of success using WC846 and RCBS 308-165-Sil Cast Boolits. (Click on Photo to enlarge).


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090503ab1286f727.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6444)


These 10 round shot strings were tested in a .308 Bolt action rifle. The results are good enough that I think I'll load another 10 rounds of each and fire from one of my M1A's in the next week or so and see what we get. Will publish the loads after we get a chance to test fire them in the M1A (M-14).

Looking at the data collected, although we got some pretty fair groups, there is quite a spread in velocity for these two loads. I did not use an over powder 1/4 sheet TP (Toilet Paper) wad this time. Looks like I may add a TP over powder wad for the M1A test to see if we can reduce the velocity spread.


I have attached the Load Data Sheets for each load as a PDF file. (Click on the PDF Icon to open).


Mustang