.45/70 Leading

[softpoint]

Trying to find a moderate load for a non-gaschecked boolit in .45/70, found that the 325gr. RCBS plainbase shoots very well out of both a Marlin 1895CB, (26"barrel), and a 1895LTDIII, (18.5"barrel) with 30 grains AA5744. Avg. velocity out of the 26"barrel is 1425 fps., out of the 18.5" barrel, average is 1344 fps. Both rifles lead the barrel for the first eight inches or so. I'm using water dropped wheelweights with a little linotype added. Lube is Felix lube. Boolits cast a tad over .459. Lube in a .460 die. Should I back off this load for less velocity to minimize leading, or change to a different powder? I've shot this same alloy with this same lube out of .44 magnum revolvers using 2400 powder that didn't lead at all, and at these same velocities with the 429421 boolit. Would a slower powder help in the rifles to prevent leading? Accuracy begins to fall off due to leading after about 12-15 rounds.:-?

[MtGun44]

Bore size?? You need to be .001 to .003 over bore size with rifles. No reason that
you shouldn't be able to run at 1400 fps with plain base. Once you have the fit under
control (maybe you do, but you don't report the groove diam, so maybe you don't know
it) you need to see if you are getting a lube star at the muzzle. If not, you are probably
running out of lube. How much lube on that boolit, say compared to a Keith design?

I too, run .44 mags and .357 mags at this speed or faster with Keith boolits of wwts with
zero leading with H110 or 2400.

Fit first, then lube quality and quantity, then hardness. Also, bore roughness has to figure
in the process, too. How many jacketed rounds have you fired down the barrel? Does
the barrel look smooth or rough? Patches glide or tough to move?

Bill

[RobS]

I agree with Bill on bullet size and many 45/70 bores do have groove diameters that would need a larger bullet than .459. I don't know if you slugged your barrel, but that would be the first place to go if you have not. There should be no problems reaching out to the 1400-1500 fps with plain old air cooled WW as the pressures are much lower in the 45-70 than in the 44 mag loads you have shot and with the extra inches of a rifle barrel only makes this even easier. You are probably looking at 1700 cup pressures or less with what you are trying and if you do have a bullet that is a touch undersized a quinched WW bullet will not obturate at those low pressure levels which could be another issue you are having. As mentioned bullet fit is king.

[NickSS]

I have shot the same bullet with 29 gr of 5744 and got some minor leading in several different 45-70s. I backed the load off to 27 gr and no leading. I was using home made black powder lube. I size my boolits at .459

[softpoint]

Both of these rifles slug at very close to .4575, Yes I am getting a lube star at the muzzle, the leading occurs the first 8 or so inches from the chamber. (I just said 8 inches from the end, didn't specify which end, ) I will back off 3 grains to 27 grains as NickSS suggests, but I'm wondering if I could keep the 1400fps. by going to a different powder? In my.44 revolvers, I get leading sometimes with a moderate charge of Unique, but can change to a full throttle load of 2400 and the leading goes away.
Both of these rifles seem to have smooth bores,although the LTDIII has had only a few(less than 50) jacketed bullets fired through it,and the Cowboy has had no J words shot in it.
I see some loading manuals, and I believe Ken Waters has gotten good accuracy with cast by using a case full of very slow powder(4350, 4831, AA3100, etc,) I don't know if that would help with the leading, but would sure eat up a lot more powder, as some of those loads go as high as 60 grains! I have never tried any of those loads, with 3031 being the slowest powder I have ever used in the 45/70, even for heavy hunting loads. I have shot this same alloy in the LTDIII with the RCBS Gaschecked 405 gr. with Felix lube, and the Alox lubed Ranch Dog 350 gr. Gaschecked at much heavier loadings with 3031 and RL7 with no leading.
Maybe I am trying to keep the velocity too high for the plainbase boolits in my particular rifles?Those very slow powders would probably cost more to use than adding gaschecks.:coffee:

[1874Sharps]

+1 to what is above. I wonder if a card wad or two under the base of the boolit might help out as well, such as the black powder shooters use to help protect the base of the boolit.

[softpoint]

That is a thought, too about the card wads, but wouldn't I need to attach them to the boolit base unless I used a case full of powder? I have never used card wads, (fear of ringing chamber) I have thought about Cream of Wheat, and have read much about it over the years, but have never used it. (Have eaten plenty of it, just never shot it!) I am loading these light loads on a Dillon 550, so I'd have to slow the procedure a lot to add things.

[JDNC]

Softpoint,
I have used a filler called Puff-Lon for several yrs now in my 45/70 and other cartridges with good results. I too was concerned about chamber ringing as (in theory) the over-pwd wad might result in a obstruction in the barrel. I have used this product in several calibers and observed more consistent pressures and velocities (using RSI's Pressure Trace to measure relative pressures) testing hundreds of loads. So far..no chamber rings or problems.

As for your leading problem.. I don't know. I might add, a few years ago I was working up a fast load for a 30 Cal. wildcat (.308 Belm) case cap between a 308Win and 30/06 using 4198 and some other powders about this burning rate and found leading pretty bad at about 1800-1900 fps using a LBT 177 Gn GC bullet cast with WW and lubed with LBT Blue. I changed to slower powders 4831, 3031 etc. and the leading stopped with resulting velocties in the 2600 range. No other changes but powder. Beats me...but the faster rate powders just caused leading at lower velocities. These bullets were about .002" over groove size. Did the slower powders cause better obturation? Anyway you might try some Puff-lon as a filler instead of the Cream of Wheat or Daycron.

JD

[twotrees]

I am shooting a Lee 330 gr boolit in my Marlin 1895 over 48 gr of 3031 for 1750 FPS. Lube is Speed Green ( See Bullshop's ad) and get no leading with this PB Boolit.

Try a slower powder / different lube, and I think you'll find a load in your desired range, w/o leading.

[Bullshop]

Softpoint
Two things I noticed in your first post that come into question when combined.
First I see you said you are using quenched WW with lino added. That depending on how hot thet are when they hit the water will make a very hard boolit at somewhere about bhn-24.
The other thin I see is the load you are using is very low pressure. A very hard possibly undersized boolit at low pressure is always a no no.
I will wager that all you need to do is cast with straight WW leaving out the lino and air cool. A soft undersized boolit will obturate with enough pressure and shoot quite well with no leading but one that is too hard may get blow by and cause greef.
You would need somewhere about 40,000 psi to obturate boolits of the hardness of your quenched enriched WW's.
Simply replace your hard boolits with soft and all will be well. At the pressure you are shooting even pure lead will work well and be ever so much better than what you are using.
BIC/BS

[softpoint]

I am going to try some air cooled straight WW boolits this week, I'll try them first with the same powder charge, then try a different powder if needed. Hoping I can make the 5744 work, I have 16 lb. of it....:coffeecom

[softpoint]

Curiosity got me. I spent today working with the 45/70LTDIII, I stayed with the same powder charge at first, Used the quenched boolits and cream of wheat to make a compressed load.Still got leading! so I must not be running enough pressure to make a "slug" out of the COW, or??
Tried 13.5 gr Herco, same boolit. Leaded badly.
Tried 44gr. H322. Still leaded, just as bad.
Cast some more bullets out of the same alloy, air cooled rather than water dropped, sized and loaded a dozen, same powder charge.(30gr.5744) Still leaded, but not quite as bad. On to something!
I was using my small Lee pot for this, so next I dropped three small muffins of pure lead that I have been using for paper patched boolits in the mix, probably about 2 lbs. Haven't weighed them yet. I cast a dozen more boolits, air cooled,same powder charge again. Leading disappears!!
Dropped another muffin of pure lead in the mix and cast 12 more and shot them. Our leading problem is over!![smilie=w:
So, I am shooting a boolit that is MUCH softer, I should mail some samples of the hard boolits and my final mix to someone here who has a hardness tester and see where we were, and are now. Anyone?
What to do with all the hard bullets I have.? Load them to maximum levels for the Marlin?
I've seen threads on here where people didn't agree whether boolits obturated with smokeless powder. I'd have to say they do now. But why did they need to , as I was already shooting .459 boolits out of a .4575 groove?:confused:

[JesterGrin_1]

For some reason the Marlin in 45-70 likes a bullet sized .460. If you go a bit smaller as said you need a softer bullet that will help fill out. especially if you push them slow. The slower the push the softer the lead needs to be to fill out the chamber and bore. Now if you size at .460 you can make them of a harder mix.

My go to load of which I use for hunting is the RD350Gr sized at .460 with Alox with 52.OGr of H-322 in a Rem case and a Fed 210 primer. But do have a limbsaver pad on it for these loads. :)

My lead mix is 4 pounds pure to 1 pound Lino water dropped. I have no idea how hard they are but they work lol.

[softpoint]

That mix is probably quite a bit softer than what I was trying to use, Jester, I was using about 10 lbs. Clip on weights with about 1 lb. lino. water dropped. My bullets cast about .4595, and I size in a .460 die. My gaschecked boolits have worked well with this alloy, but when I tried to use it with the plainbased boolits for a reduced loading, I got leading. The softer mix seems to be working now. Puzzles me, though as to why the boolits have to "bump up" when they are already larger than groove dia.? What is also strange to me is that the cream of wheat didn't make any difference??

[BABore]

You stated your groove size as 0.4575 IIRC. How did you go about slugging the bbl?

I've yet to see a Marlin that didn't have bore constrictions under the dovetail cuts and at the bbl threads. You need to drive a pure lead slug, preferrably a hollow egg sinker, completely through the bbl from muzzle to breech. Then do a second one just into the muzzle and then back out the way it came. Compare the two slug diameters. The muzzle only slug should be the smaller of the two. If you have any constrictions, they will act the same as a revolver with cylinder throats smaller than groove diameter.

[TCLouis]

Humor me with this one.
Clean the barrel real well and patch dry.

After this then push a tight patch down the barrel . . . feel any dragging on the patch in the area where it is leading, looking for tight or rough spot in the barrel. Something I will sugest and others will say don't do . . . is a nice job of fire lapping. Least aggressive abrasive compound and slowest velocity where every boolit leaves the barrel seems to have worked for me. I usually try for 50 plus roounds. Firelapping might well be your "Last Resort" plan.

Plan B or maybe better as A, shoot some boolits cast from air cooled straight wheel weight alloy and see what happens.

[Bullshop]

Told ya, rub rub. I will test those for you.
You can use the link to my siter at the bottom of the page to get my mailing address.
BIC/BS

[softpoint]

Thanks, Bullshop, I had convinced myself that since the barrel slugged smaller than my boolits, I could shoot the hard alloy I had . Such was not the case!
And yes, I ran a snug patch down the bore and didn't notice any tight spots, but if the muzzle is tight and the transition is not very abrupt, I might not notice it by patching it. And I'm going to have to make up a couple of lead slugs to slug the barrel at the muzzle end, I'm out.
I shot the rifle again this afternoon with the softer boolits. At 31 grains of 5744, groups were lousy, all over the paper at 50 yards. Back down to 29 grains and shot 2, 5 shot groups One right at 1⅛, and one ⅞. And no leading whatsoever with these softer boolits! I will take that anyday with a peep sight short barrel 1895.!
Next I am going to see how they shoot in 1895 CB, with 26" tube as opposed to the 18½ of the LTDIII.:mrgreen::mrgreen:

[Marvin S]

Just before I read this I loaded up some 45-70 with the LEE 340gr and 29.5 gr 5744. I used dead soft lead as this load is pretty much the same as I use in my 43 Spanish Rolling block. I have always felt that using hard lead in a lower velocity load is asking for trouble and causes more problems than you can imagine. Soft lead and soft lube, hard to beat.

[softpoint]

Whole different ball game for these lighter rifle loads with non GC boolits. I have cast & shot MANY thousands of pistol bullets over the years, and lots of rifle boolits, but almost all the rifle boolits and many of the pistol boolits wore gaschecks, and were cast as hard as I could get them. Marvin S, are you casting that load out of pure lead?! Let me know how it performs. I'm thinking a 45/70 load at 1350-1400 fps. would be cheap to shoot, without the gascheck, and be a fun practice plinker, and still kill lots of stuff here in Texas.

[Marvin S]

Yes just x-ray sheet lead witrh no lino added. It works well in my 43 Spanish so I thought I would try it in my new 45-70 Browning 1886. The 43 is pan lubed with Bees wax/Olive oil/Petro jelly mix and the 45 is the Lyman super molly.

[38-55]

Hey Softpoint,
I use the 45-70 with accurate 5744 all the time.. try dropping back to 27 grains for straight wheel weights.. As fur adding the pure lead and getting great results.. here's what may be a different take on things.. Try not to think of bullets in terms of hard and soft but brittle and pliant...... with pure lead being the most 'pliant' and Linotype/high tin alloy being brittle... Just a passing thought I thought I'd share..
Stay safe
Calvin
PS I whack alot of whitetails with the 27 gn load and Lyman great little Gould hollow point ( 457122 ) great meat getter that cartridge is....

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I think I read everything... I do not see any Info about the THROAT size. That area right at the end of the chamber. That to me IS the MOST inportant measurement to fit a boolit properly. Throat + .002+and it will not lead unless pressure exceeds drasticly the structural integrity of the boolit.
Problem sometimes is being able to squeeze that FAT boolit load into the chamber. Then a compramize has to be worked out.

[softpoint]

Thats right, Missionary5555, but only my Ranchdog molds cast any larger than about .4595, and they are gascheck molds, so I am having to try to make what I have work. I could Beagle my mold if needed, I have 2 Lee plainbase molds that cast only .457 boolits. I beagled one of them, but they are single cavity molds and very hard to keep any aluminum tape in, because the widest strip of tape you can get in one of those molds anywhere is ⅛"! The MUCH softer alloy I am casting now seems to be working well, no leading and good accuracy at the level I am loading it, (29 gr.5744) but this soft alloy seems to give up at about 31 gr. and groups go wild. That's OK though, the 29 gr. load is a level I can live with, If I want a big boomer, the Ranchdog molds work fine, with a gascheck, and harder alloy with about 60 or so grains of H335. Those loads shoot very well in three of my .45/70's, but they give the little Marlin LTDIII a quite abrasive personality,(Mine only weighs in at 6lbs,5oz. with peep sights):smile:

[Bullshop]

If you want to use the soft alloy for the higher velocities try paper patching.
I shoot what can be considered pure lead at up to 2000 fps with 500gn PP boolits from a 458 Win mag.
That is also a way to address undersized boolits in oversize throats.
BIC/BS

[softpoint]

I already paper patch too, so I'll use up everything. I like paper patched hunting boolits because I can shoot pure lead pretty fast.
I took all the "too hard" boolits last night and boiled all the Felix lube off of them. I then put them on a cookie sheet and put them in an old table-top convection oven I keep around to dry welding rods in if they need it. I brought the old oven up to maximum temp. which turned out to be right at 375-400 degrees. I put the boolits on to "bake" for 2 hours, turned the oven off and let the boolits cool slowly inside the oven. This morning I pulled out several and tried the thumbnail test on them. The annealed boolits are now much softer, so I re-lubed, loaded and shot 12 rounds. Zero leading! the annealed boolits are going to work fine.
A note on boiling lube off boolits, Another + for Felix lube, it boils off well if you ever have to remove it for any reason. I had some lube here once that was made out of beeswax and hi-temp moly grease that worked pretty well as far as lubing the boolits, Do not try to boil that junk off boolits! it makes a mess!:mrgreen::Fire:

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Softpoint, good thread with lots of info from the members :redneck: :cbpour:

[quasi]

every time I have had leading problems it has been from undersize boolits. Throat size is the key for me in rifles.

[pipehand]

I have the mentioned mould, and had to lap it out. Stock, with wheelweights, it was doing good to hit .4585". It now drops closer to .460" Made a big difference in avoiding leading in my Guide Gun, and is more accurate as well.