What is up wit this garbage

[TCLouis]

I have shot several pounds of H110.

I have shot a pound plus of W 296

I have shot over 16 pounds of WC 820 from the old days when it was truly comparable to H110.

I bought 16 pounds of this new WC820 (comparable to AA#9) krap and I have numerous misfires in both 357 and 44 mag. Really are misfires, powder is a big lump and at least today the boolit made it into the barrel.

I may have to go to Magnum primers, but would love to know why they were never needed before.

WLP and WSP have plenty of fire to set off everything except this krap.

Guess we are just to the dregs of milsurp powder.

I can see if I were Like RD and this were my first use of Milsurp I would be against them all!

I had plans to load some 30 Carbine with it, but don't dare use this krap for any self loader and never trust it enough for any real use.


Do I come across as being miffed, no, I am no miffed, I am pissed off.

[beagle]

My shooting partner and I ran into that too. His lots were from Bartlett and mine from Hi-Tech. He had a lot of trouble with ignition in the .357 Magnum. I've used mine in all kinds of stuff from the .30 Carbine to the .45/70 and had no troubles with it as long as I used enough and didn't try to lower the velocity too much.

I guess there are big variations between pulled lots but darned if I can tell you why./beagle

[Johnch]

I had the same problem with my current batch of WC 820
But when went to a mag primer and increased to crimp a little

The problems went away

Not sure witch fixed the problem
Just glad it is fixed

John

[anachronism]

I've always used magnum primers for WC820, H110 & 296, and given them a major league crimp.

[454PB]

I hear ya.......been there myself......
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20838

[Charlie in Co]

I have an 8# jug of WC820 from Bartlett's. Magnum primers and heavy crimp on full loads and no problems

[9.3X62AL]

What Anach and Charlie said.

[Jim]

Magnum powder, magnum primers, magnum load. Try AA #9 data.

[Guesser]

I have both on the shelf from Bartlett, I've used Winchester LP with both and never had a problem. I don't use it in 357, I have a quantity of H-108 I'm using for it. I use #107 for 41 Mag with WLP primers. So far I've never had a hangfire or a misfire with any of them.

[JIMinPHX]

I've been using H-110 with WLPs for years. I get inch groups at 50 yards with a .44 mag & iron sights. My extreme velocity deviation from an entire string is usually less than 50fps. Despite what the books have all told me about needing mag primers with that powder, it has treated me unbelievably well with just the standard WLPs. It sounds to me like you you an off-spec lot of powder.

[TCLouis]

the old batch of WC820 (2 different lots) with nary a hitch using WLP and WSP, but I have had squib loads every time I have loaded with this new batch. Maybe I had better try one of the other jugs from this "recent" order.

[Lloyd Smale]

standard ww primers are considered mag primers. they are in fact just as hot as fed mag pistol primers.
I've been using H-110 with WLPs for years. I get inch groups at 50 yards with a .44 mag & iron sights. My extreme velocity deviation from an entire string is usually less than 50fps. Despite what the books have all told me about needing mag primers with that powder, it has treated me unbelievably well with just the standard WLPs. It sounds to me like you you an off-spec lot of powder.

[Bass Ackward]

I have used surplus powders before myself. But the thing that I never understood about the craze for surplus powders with the cost differential today. Especially when it comes from pull down.

Not rocket science here: The reason that the government is getting rid of this ammo is NOT to supply reloaders with cheap source of powder, but because of the possibility that it WON'T go off.

I would think that it shouldn't be sold if it is found to be beyond practical life. Especially with the H-110 class balls and reduction of even new lots of powder. Now we have old powder that can create the same type of problem with a full charge. That's scarry. But the seller doesn't want to eat it, so he passes it on.

So it seems that yaz spins the wheel and yaz takes yer chances.

[felix]

If powder is lumpy in spots, especially with ball powders, the powder is on it's last legs for usefulness, whatever reason. Storage conditions are the most likely cause (air conditioner failed), or the solvents used to make the powder were not up to a prescribed long-term spec (not pure enough) for the powder's formulation. I first ran into this many years ago with a commercial lot of WW748. Lately, Corky and I have noticed it with a jug of DP85. It's not practical to try and fix the problem for long term loads. ... felix

[Rocky Raab]

What bass ackward said. If you want canister-grade performance, buy canister-grade powder. If cheap is your criteria, cheap is all you get.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ill argue it a bit. Ive used probably a 100 lbs of 820 and have never had a single issue with it. I have only used mag primers though. Some of my best loads in my guns are with 820 and id but it even if it cost more then 110 which by the way is just as hard to light off as 820. A guy can spend 20 bucks more a keg and buy aa9 which is the same thing but it is no newer or better then 820. Now when surplus gets up around a 100 bucks a jug id agree its not worth the bother. I wouldnt want to work up loads for a powder and have them run out of it. Ive got 10 kegs of 820 now and am glad i do as it seems that its all gone. this will keep me going for a couple more years anyway. Personaly i get a kick out of people who stick there noses up in the air about surplus powders. Acurate arms powders are for the most part surplus and even hodgdon sells it occasionaly and made there bussiness selling it. Put a fancy label on a jug and everyone thinks there gettting something better.

[Bass Ackward]

Lloyd,

It's a free country. And you are a big boy.

Kind of reminds me of that old Warner Brothers cartoon where the Daffy Duck is on an assembly line where artillery shells are passing by and he hits each shell with a small hammer on the nose and then writes dud on the side. Then yells .... NEXT!

Translation: It works till it don't.

[TCLouis]

beagle
Years ago Jeff Bartlett told me about how much variation there is between Lots in Military powders and yet they are still used. When one has a couple of train cars full and more, along with complete ballistics lab then it is no big deal to develop loads to pressure and velocity specs for a particular Lot of ammunition.

Lloyd Smale, Jims, guesser and others Thank you for your information.

This is the first of any milsup powder I have had any issues with and it has thrown me. I will try one of the other jugs.

As for other comments not germane to the question . . .

[500swshooter]

My experience has been that if anything less than a max charge or near max charge is used with WC820 or H-110 I ended up with hangfires and bullets stuck in the barrel. heavy crimp magnum primers and bullets seated to the correct length (deep) will help with your problem.

[TCLouis]

Thanx Mr. Moderator.
lb

[looseprojectile]

I have used a lot of WC820. No problem. I have used probably the whole gamut of surplus powder and am very satisfied. EXCEPT!
One time I had a problem with surplus ball/spherical powder and IIRC it was
2202 something. It was surplused because it mucked up the chambers of the M 16 rifles then being used in Nam. I loaded up a couple of hundred and took them to the range and after about fifteen rounds I couldn't chamber a round because of gooey crud in the chamber. One would have thought that it might have been tested before it was issued to the front line troops. Do I trust my gubermit? Ha!

Life is good

[TCLouis]

500swshooter
I used starting loads for AA#9 first and then midrange and then book max. In the 357 I have had problems to some degree or another in all three different loadings.


See additional information I posted today at:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=68064

[mdi]

I have an 8# jug of WC820 from Bartlett's. Magnum primers and heavy crimp on full loads and no problems

Me too. I've always read/been told to use Mag. primers with these powders

[Lloyd Smale]

you have to understand that 820 was a powder desinged for the 30 carbine and the .30 runs relitively high pressures and is capped with a miltary small rifle primer which is about equivelent to a mag small rifle primer. the military didnt need a powder that could be downloaded. It worked great in that application. the 30 carbines were considered a very reliable gun and were used even in artic conditions. Where you will run into problems is trying to outthink the designers of the powder. Used at higher pressures and using mag primers it is a very consistant and reliable powder. Downloaded or used in applications not suited for it it will fall on its face. It is not a bit differnt the 110/296 in these respects. I chuckle at guys that will jump up and down saying NEVER download 110 but then give them some aa9 or 820 and the first thing they want to do is see how low they can go and then call it junk when it doesnt work. Same goes for primers why use standard primers when everybody that knows anything tells you to use mags. did you hate doing what your mother told you too? Again 110 is the same. every reloading book ive ever seen will tell you to use mag primers with it and not to download it. How many guys do you know that will tell you standard primers are better with it. I guess they got there engineering degree somewhere else and the pressure measuring equiptment is a differnt brand. Use 820 properly. Keep the pressures up and use a 350 cci primer with it and it is one of the most consistant burning powders ive tried and some of my most accurate big bore revolver loads are made using it.

[bigdog454]

+1 Lloyd

[alamogunr]

If powder is lumpy in spots, especially with ball powders, the powder is on it's last legs for usefulness, whatever reason. Storage conditions are the most likely cause (air conditioner failed), or the solvents used to make the powder were not up to a prescribed long-term spec (not pure enough) for the powder's formulation. I first ran into this many years ago with a commercial lot of WW748. Lately, Corky and I have noticed it with a jug of DP85. It's not practical to try and fix the problem for long term loads. ... felix

Felix, Is the problem with DP85 the lumpy appearance? Have you noticed any difference in performance? I have a jug of this powder too and have only used about a half pound in my .25-06 with J bullets. I didn't notice any problems but that was about 2 years ago.

Sorry for the semi-hijack.

John
W.TN

[felix]

John, what was stated is not an iron-clad fact, but just an observation particularly on the jug I've used. Your jug might be A-1 OK until proven you cannot get enough consistency between shots. Use the load you used before and pay attention to bolt lift. If it feels different, try dropping a grain or so. If the bolt feels even worse, then there is reason to suspect your powder observation compliments mine. ... felix

[BeeMan]

Lloyd,

Excellent point about the original design requirements for 820. I plead guilty to having tried light loads, but concluded I need to procure enough mag primers to use up my stash of 820.

BeeMan

[beagle]

Yeah, basically, the government buys a train load of powder and tweaks the load until they acheive their desired velocity/pressure and load that.

What kills us is that milsurp powder may come from more than one lot of ammunition. I had one lot of WC820 that had pieces of copper from pulled bullets in it and pieces of the asphalt sealing mixed in.

The MS 4759 I have has all kinds of white and green paint in it as it was loaded under frangible ammo.

No telling what we get sometimes. Maybe sweepings from the floor at Talon Industries which I understand that Senator Byrd got exclusive contracts to demil small arms ammo. What a sweetheart deal that had to have been./beagle



beagle
Years ago Jeff Bartlett told me about how much variation there is between Lots in Military powders and yet they are still used. When one has a couple of train cars full and more, along with complete ballistics lab then it is no big deal to develop loads to pressure and velocity specs for a particular Lot of ammunition.

Lloyd Smale, Jims, guesser and others Thank you for your information.

This is the first of any milsup powder I have had any issues with and it has thrown me. I will try one of the other jugs.

As for other comments not germane to the question . . .

[frank505]

plus 5 for Lloyd, well into my second keg of Wc820 (not 8 pounds) I like it very much. But when you buy it in the original container it usually is much cleaner and not pull down. I did buy lots of MR3100 from Claude Sonday when he started Accurate Arms and he showed me a brass wrench that was left in the keg. That and some lunch wrappers left in the kegs, were the cause of rejection of the entire lot, something like 20,000 pounds.
I am pretty sure most of the kegs are gone, broken down to 8 pound jugs, and sold. Too bad, it is a godd feeling to run your fingers through a hundred and fifty pounds of some of the finest powder in the world.

[HangFireW8]

I've been using H-110 with WLPs for years. I get inch groups at 50 yards with a .44 mag & iron sights. My extreme velocity deviation from an entire string is usually less than 50fps. Despite what the books have all told me about needing mag primers with that powder, it has treated me unbelievably well with just the standard WLPs. It sounds to me like you you an off-spec lot of powder.

Jim, I'm glad you have had good luck with standard primers and magnum powder. I see you live in Phoenix, and it is February right now. What is the temperature today in Phoenix?

-HF

[HangFireW8]

I did buy lots of MR3100 from Claude Sonday when he started Accurate Arms and he showed me a brass wrench that was left in the keg.

Might have been brass, could have been Bronze Beryllium. The non-sparking tools I used in the test range loading room were BB and costs hundreds of dollars each, that was in 1980's money.

That might be one expensive wrench. If it is as strong as steel, it is BB. Don't grind it, causes cancer.

-HF