Why not Gas Checks?

[Changeling]

I would like to hear some reasons/arguments for NOT using gas checks besides the cost factor?

[Lloyd Smale]

cost is the only negitive i could think of .

[Char-Gar]

Elmer Keith was "again" gas checks as he thought they worked against proper bullet base upset and shortened the life of the gun barrel. It is always dangerous to disagree with Keith, but in this case, I think that is bull. But you asked.

Keith aside, other than the cost and small amount of extra time, I see no downside to using gas checks. I do see some upside to the use of gas checks.

We are talking sixgun loads here right? Talk about rifle loads and that is a different subject.

[Dale53]

Talking entirely about handguns and gas checks.

I have shot probably (conservatively) 200,000 cast bullets without gas checks without problems and with excellent accuracy.

I have also experimented with gas checks. They DO work well and occasionally you will find a .357 magnum revolver that responds better to gas checked bullets.

They take at least twice as long to size bullets with gas checks. When you do several thousand a year that makes a BIG difference to me. They are outrageously expensive these days (you can buy completed jacketed bullets about as cheap:evil:).

I shoot revolvers to a max of 1400 fps. I have two recently acquired .454 Casulls and WILL be using gas checks with those due to the velocities required.

A good Keith style bullet or a LBT style bullet plain base will do all that I need in the standard and magnum handguns (not counting the .454).

FWIW
Dale53

[Bass Ackward]

I would like to hear some reasons/arguments for NOT using gas checks besides the cost factor?










































Silence speaks volumes.

[405]

Thanks Chargar! at least someone doesn't throw out the Elmer Keith card then wait for the audience to murmur, gasp, bow and ask for forgiveness about having an independent brain without some vicarious EKism or quote. :)

I shoot a lot of cast bullets with and without gas checks. Only a couple of cautions and warnings I use when loading them, especially in handguns. They have been known to impart harm to readout screens on chronographs and similarly if the check is not very secure to the shank they can be left in the barrel after firing.

[mike in co]

the last thing the muzzle sees of a boolit is its base. as cast boolits seem to have excellent flat squared based....they shoot very well.
now add a copper round cornered gas check andddddd...well in my limited testing...everytime , the gas checked boolit WITHOUT a gc, out shot the checked boolit......only by a little, but consitantly.....about 1/8-1/4" better at 50 yds.....
so if the velocity does not require one, i don't shoot one.

mike in co

[phaessler]

...
so if the velocity does not require one, i don't shoot one.

mike in co

Exactly, especially in my dual gun (Revolver/lever) caliber, am trying to determine if I need them im my 45-70 or not, but it depends on what you are tryingto do within the performance range of the firearm and the desired projectile.

Just my opinion

Pete

[GP100man]

So they don`t come off & bust your new F1 chronograph!!!!

& no I did`nt!!

Wanted to add: as far as handgun calibers I can`t endure enuff HI pressure rounds to lead the barrel up & since joinin this site I`ve improved my castin & boolit fittin ability enuff that what I do shoot (1350fps tops) is enuff to shoot what needs shootin does`nt leave any traces of leadin .

This is me talkin `bout me , I cast blindly & feverishly for yrs. before seein "THE LIGHT" of not needin the hardest stuff I could find to make boolits work !!!

[mike in co]

So they don`t come off & bust your new F1 chronograph!!!!

& no I did`nt!!


LOL...YOU SHOULD SEE THE 8MM GC'S MARKS ON MY SCREENS!

mike in co

[MtGun44]

Hassle making sure that they are seated evenly and just one more unecessary step.

I have fired thousands of full power loads in .45 LC, .44 mag and .357 mag with good
plain base designs properly fitted with no leading at max velocities with fine accuracy.

I avoid GCs in pistols as unecessary. In rifles, they are more needed as the velocities
climb.

Kind of like "can you run high test in a low compression engine?". The answer is "Yes"
it doesn't really hurt anything, but it gives no benefit and costs money so why would you
want to?

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

I have shot literaly 10s of thousands of gas checked bullets through handguns and have yet to wear a barrel out. Ive shot out a few forcing cones but ball powders and extreamly hot loads are the culprid in most of those cases. I shoot just about every caliber of modern handgun there is and except for the auto loaders that you cant find a good gas checked mold for i can look in my data and the overall accuracy champ for every caliber is undoubtably a gas checked bullet. Sure i can give you instances where plain based bullets out shot the gaschecked in certain guns with certian loads but overal the gas checked designs win hands down. I dont use them because of leading. My guns are right or i fix them so plain based bullets will not lead at handgun velocitys in them but i will use them for accuracy. My buddy AL who shoots probalby more handgun then anyone in the country and keeps the best load data ive ever seen will concur. Accuacy in a handgun= a proper fit bullet in a proper fit gun cast hard and gas checked.

[Bret4207]

I HATE sizing and I REALLY hate putting GC's on. Darn little things are a pain in 44/45 cal, try them in 22 cal!!! That being said, I have nothing else bad to say about GC's. I know Elmer didn't care for them and that's fine. He didn't have much good to say about the 7x57 or 6.5x55 and they work fine. But, they are expensive and they aren't needed for all applications.

[Tazman1602]

Hi Dale,

I'm just wondering about the quote in red below. I agree with the fact that it takes twice as long to lube using the GC's....especially if you've got a bullet base that's a bit too big.

I've heard this argument all over the forum and don't understand. I just ordered 1,000 .357 gas checks from Midway and with shipping it comes out to $0.03 (3 CENTS) each which in my neophyte bullet casting mind is extremely reasonable especially if you want to push them along fairly fast.

I DO prefer PB/BB cast just because I don't shoot a lot of full bore loads, I just don't understand where the $$$$ argument come in and I'm willing to listen.

Maybe back in the day you guys used to pay less than a penny a piece for them???

Thanks,

Art


Talking entirely about handguns and gas checks.

I have shot probably (conservatively) 200,000 cast bullets without gas checks without problems and with excellent accuracy.

I have also experimented with gas checks. They DO work well and occasionally you will find a .357 magnum revolver that responds better to gas checked bullets.

They take at least twice as long to size bullets with gas checks. When you do several thousand a year that makes a BIG difference to me. They are outrageously expensive these days (you can buy completed jacketed bullets about as cheap:evil:).

I shoot revolvers to a max of 1400 fps. I have two recently acquired .454 Casulls and WILL be using gas checks with those due to the velocities required.

A good Keith style bullet or a LBT style bullet plain base will do all that I need in the standard and magnum handguns (not counting the .454).

FWIW
Dale53

[Dale53]

Art;
I guess it is all perception. I truly resent the MUCH higher prices (about double) what they were two years ago. Copper prices had risen because of China's demands but now copper prices are back down and the higher gas check prices are still with us. I just don't appreciate being "gouged", I guess.

In the great scheme of things, 3 cents per round additional certainly won't break the bank. However, even spending that amount "NOT NEEDED" is something to consider. The main reason I don't use them much is the time it takes to size bullets with GC's.

Bottom line, I guess, is "you pays your money and makes your choice"

Dale53

[runfiverun]

they are now what 30.00+ they were 7.00 i have some ideals marked 3.00 but i ain't that old.
you just don't need g/c's for revolver cartridges.
i have one g/c mold for a 44 cal and thats for the 445 supermag, i also use a 429421 in it for just everyday stuff. but when i need more speed i use the g/c mold to offset my alloy.
g/c's are what they say, they check gas.
they might [or not] do a couple of other things, but their main purpose is to protect the base of your boolit.
if you are staying under 1500 fps and 40 or so k of pressure you definately don't need them.
goes for rifles and leverguns too.

[sixshot]

With few exceptions I've never felt the need for gas checks in my revolver loads. I do use them when loading a 200 gr LBT slug for my 357 Maximum, also when loading the old Ray Thompson #358156 (dandy bullet) in 357 magnum. Back when I was competing in IPSC matches I fired 86,000 rounds in a 2 year period, all plain base & the gun was still winning matches when I quit, very seldom ever cleaned the barrel, I cleaned the cylinder after every match.
I agree with Lloyd, the GC styles will usually outshoot the plain base one's but its by very little at normal sixgun distances, also, like he said, bullet fit, that & the correct hardness at the velocity being used.
We used to buy GC's for $5 a thousand back in the day, hard to justify a 600 per cent increase!

Dick

[Bret4207]

Art;
I guess it is all perception. I truly resent the MUCH higher prices (about double) what they were two years ago. Copper prices had risen because of China's demands but now copper prices are back down and the higher gas check prices are still with us. I just don't appreciate being "gouged", I guess.

In the great scheme of things, 3 cents per round additional certainly won't break the bank. However, even spending that amount "NOT NEEDED" is something to consider. The main reason I don't use them much is the time it takes to size bullets with GC's.

Bottom line, I guess, is "you pays your money and makes your choice"

Dale53

Dale, not to dispute your statement, but the American dollar is falling like crazy as we print more and more money that has no backing. I understand most copper comes from South America, so we're paying a world price with a worthless hunk of paper.

[oldhickory]

I don't care much for using them much myself, in fact I avoid it when ever possible!..And that's most of the time. I use the Lyman 311410 for my carbine just so I don't have to use them. Aside from .30/06, .308, .30WCF, and .30/40 Krag, I just don't use em. I even have an old Ideal 308241, (155gr plain base) for light .30 loads just so I don't have to use those little cups!

Hand-gun is a non-issue, the fastest thing I shoot is .44mag, and with Elmer's boolit and load there's no reason to bother with anything else.

[Bass Ackward]

I'd like to say that I shoot PB exclusively because it would make me sound like I know what I am doing a lot more often, but I don't. Necessity IS the mother of invention, and the GC wouldn't be here if it wasn't beneficial. As a result, there are some very real advantages to GCs that does offset costs and improves chances for handgun accuracy.

Gas Checks are superior to PB because / when:

1. It allows the use of softer bullets both in reloading and shooting.
2. They offset their installation time by allowing for faster / problem free reloading and shooting.
3. They offset their cost by extending case life because you don't need as big a bell each time you reload. Belling negatively affects case neck tension, so the less required the better.
4. They allow for more flexible shooting year round and minimize lube, hardness, and concerns for temperature and rate of fire. Because they "can" maintain bore condition better, they lower pressures vs leaded guns that build up.
5. If you are water dropping PB, then they allow for longer term ammunition storage without affecting accuracy due to eventual softening.
6. They minimize sizing requirements so that loads can be shot across many guns of the same caliber or bore diameter. If you have misalignment, then bore diameter slugs allow less bullet deformation because the bullet can turn easier than a throat sized slug. And you get hit with lead a LOT less often. Where do you think that lead comes from? :grin:
7. They improve powder and pressure flexibility to allow wider choices and a wider accuracy windows if needed to find accuracy.
8. They minimize throat elongation in revolvers extending gun life as the bases enlarge exiting the cylinder under much higher pressure than the muzzle. Another way to look at this is that you can shoot light for caliber bullets longer before you HAVE to move up in weight to get accuracy.
9. They minimize cleaning requirements that can extend life for similar reasons.
10. GCs just add reloader and shooter flexibility that can't be matched by PB.


And this list goes on and on depending on if the benefits apply to you or not. It is not meant to be all inclusive, just to show cost is a narrow vantage point to focus on. Sure, some of those benefits listed above can be minimized if you are shooting extremely hard bullets that don't size down when seated or obturate under the pressures you are using. But either you need more alloy cost to blend or you have to size in a more rapid fashion (WDWW) to get there before you affect your hardness. Then if you cast in bulk and get another gun with a bigger size, your out.

The advantage to PBs are:

1. They "can be" more accurate because lead weight on the rear of the slug outweighs a copper GC keeping the CofB back where it is easier to stabilize the slug resulting in better accuracy. Particularly at lower velocities or with heavier bullets at higher velocity.
2. You don't have to fuss with the check so that it allows for faster (not necessarily better)reloading.
3. You don't have the check cost.
4. They "can" minimize cutting of the top strap because they don't seal as much pressure releasing it all at once as a GC would.

So for a whole host of reasons that can be reloader specific, it can be rather short sided to look strictly at check cost when shooting cost is total sum game, especially if you are NOT volume shooting with that caliber.

I just spent major time (pains) loading PB 200 gr 45s (single stage press) for real quality ammunition only to clean my dies and find lead slivers that had to come from somewhere not good. And which ones? Which flier is going to be me? I won't be betting money on this batch for sure. Isn't that worth something?

[44man]

I shot yesterday and today with my revolver at over 1632 fps. I shot 200 yards and the WFN plain base out shot the gas check WLN both days.
The WFN is a little heavier and also shot 6" higher.
It will depend more on the boolit you use and not whether it has a check or not. If you want to shoot softer lead, you better use a check.
You do not want to lose a check in flight, fix something to keep it with the boolit. Here is one we picked up yesterday at 100 yards. It went through a large log and hit the steel rail, notice the check is still on.

[Tazman1602]

I AM WITH YOU ON THAT ARGUMENT DALE! The thing that I don't even like to TALK about these days are primers and the gouging that's going on with them. I don't even think the dealers are gouging as much as the companies are.

It's interesting too because five years ago? I didn't use brass much more than once. Once fired and it goes in the "once fired" bin and I order another 500 from Midway or whoever is cheaper.

I just spent two days cleaning, hand trimming and putting in the "RTL" can (Ready to Load) almost 1000 rounds of .357 brass.

Wife used to say the TV show "Hoarders" applied to me and my reloading stuff, now she's really glad I didn't throw all that brass out and I still scrounge all the brass I can get no matter what caliber it is.

Right now I'm on a campaign of "hoarding" all the wheel weights I can get my hands on and trying to find a source (at a much reduced cost....) of 95/5 solder bars to add a bit of tin to my mix before prices on THAT go out the roof more than it already is. If I can find a supplier that's reasonable (I went to the hardware store to buy a pound of Oatey silver solder and about had a heart attack...) I'll offer it to the board members as reasonably as I can get it.

Thanks so much for the civil answer, I do appreciate that Dale.

Art


Art;
I guess it is all perception. I truly resent the MUCH higher prices (about double) what they were two years ago. Copper prices had risen because of China's demands but now copper prices are back down and the higher gas check prices are still with us. I just don't appreciate being "gouged", I guess.

In the great scheme of things, 3 cents per round additional certainly won't break the bank. However, even spending that amount "NOT NEEDED" is something to consider. The main reason I don't use them much is the time it takes to size bullets with GC's.

Bottom line, I guess, is "you pays your money and makes your choice"

Dale53

[felix]

Agree 100 percent with lloyd and John (BA). The only time I shoot naked boolits is at the riva' at targets, like beer cans, that are big enough to see at 150, but floating and sometimes moving between 30-80 yards. ... felix

[Changeling]

I shot yesterday and today with my revolver at over 1632 fps. I shot 200 yards and the WFN plain base out shot the gas check WLN both days.
The WFN is a little heavier and also shot 6" higher.
It will depend more on the boolit you use and not whether it has a check or not. If you want to shoot softer lead, you better use a check.
You do not want to lose a check in flight, fix something to keep it with the boolit. Here is one we picked up yesterday at 100 yards. It went through a large log and hit the steel rail, notice the check is still on.

You never cease to amaze me. Veral Smith told me the exact same thing a few days ago as you just did, " It will depend more on the boolit you use and not whether it has a check or not". You two also agree on what bullet I should be using "WFN" instead of the "LFN". There go's sexy, out the window, LOL.


Bass Ackward- Thanks for the Gas Check 101 dissertation. You outlined some things I never even considered. I realize you spent a long time on your reply, I really appreciate.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass Ackward- Thanks for the Gas Check 101 dissertation. You outlined some things I never even considered. I realize you spent a long time on your reply, I really appreciate.

Believe it or not, that took about 15 minutes to regurgitate. Allot of that can be found on Veral's site.

You need to realize that casters are really just cheap shooters in disguise. They penny pinch on things that they are comfortable dismissing and go extravagant on other things that the next guy might not believe.

And the choices casters make dictate techniques and opinions that they form while going down the road they are traveling, myself included. This process leads to strong opinion on lube quality, hardness, bullet design, powder speeds, etc. that you read every day. And it works, but within a narrower set of circumstances.

The problem that develops for less experienced folks is in adopting a single technique as "the Method or the Way" when everyone offers you conflicting advise. You just are miles ahead if you understand who is talking and where they are coming from. Once you pick a path, it is better to listen to those that are on the same quest.

A good example of this is Veral's own Web Site. Out of ten reasons that he gives, trying to steer you to a GC mold, he used to list two reasons for PB. High volume and he can't sell you a mold any other way. Remember, Veral is in the mold business and he walks you down the path you want to go if it sells a mold. Once sold, you are on your own. :grin:

[44man]

I like gas checks because it lets me fool with a lot of alloys but at the current prices, I will never make another mold for them to use in my revolvers. Cheaper to tweak the alloy but then the prices for tin and antimony are also going crazy and WW's are almost impossible to get free anymore. Soon the price will not be much different.
Even WW hardness is so different all over the country that some fellas need a gas check. Even all of the ingots I have are not the same and I can't match one mix to another and I can see it with groups I shoot. One time I can get 25 to 30 BHN and the next batch is only 18 to 20.
The difference in water dropped WW boolits vary too much too.
This is where a gas check can even things out. It is so tricky that one alloy will shoot better with annealed checks and another works better with a hard check.
To keep testing things just uses up your lead stash.
Bass is so correct about a new caster or shooter following one path only when so much can be done. But it might not be cheap and it takes a lot of work and thinking.
I have reached the point where if a batch is a little off, so be it even if it doesn't shoot as good as the last one. Too expensive on SS to melt it down and add more metals.
99% of the time, if you shoot water dropped WW's, you do not need a check. Air cooled with slow powder can work. Softer alloys might need a check. Fast powders need much harder lead and maybe even a check with the hard lead.
You have to do the work to see what happens.
If you want to shoot pure lead or even with a little tin added and use Bullseye, don't bother me with questions. Buy all the lead remover products you can find! Buy large targets too. :kidding:

[Wally]

I shoot a S & W 27 & a Ruger SS Blackhawk in the .357 magnum calibers. I have used a wide assortment of cast bullets, lubes, szing dies--at 1,200 FPS both guns lead up. Last fall I used a new Freechex tool and made my own .38 caliber gaschecks---I loaded to a 358156 sized to .359" to 1,300 FPS--no leading and accurate in both guns. I was very, very impressed--no leading, not fouled barrels, and they were accurate. From now one that's all I'll be using in both guns.

[Bass Ackward]

I have to work to keep an open mind to technique at times in what is being discussed. But I study and strivwe for flexibility in everything that I do in case my supply of something is interrupted someday.

Flexibility allows larger windows from which to operate in and find accuracy. All my lead is free and pretty much always has been, (thank God) so what is the cost of a check even at today's prices?

One thing that guys are going to have to keep in mind. Since WW are or were recycled during the peak, do you really think someone there went and picked out the zinc or the stickies?

It's coming boys! :grin:

[44man]

I have to work to keep an open mind to technique at times in what is being discussed. But I study and strivwe for flexibility in everything that I do in case my supply of something is interrupted someday.

Flexibility allows larger windows from which to operate in and find accuracy. All my lead is free and pretty much always has been, (thank God) so what is the cost of a check even at today's prices?

One thing that guys are going to have to keep in mind. Since WW are or were recycled during the peak, do you really think someone there went and picked out the zinc or the stickies?

It's coming boys! :grin:
Thank you Bass, you speak the truth.
Flexibility, A nice way to say it! :cbpour:

[Changeling]

Flexibility is what I have been striving for. I don't think it's any secret that WW are leaving the seen fast. I have been buying ingots and stashing them.
I would rather be able to shoot than to be forced into any avenue such as hard or soft, so I am studying all techniques because one way or another I will be confident in what I have and my abilities.