Fixed my 9mm tumbling!

[chris in va]

Alright guys, here's the results from my 124gr TC boolit issue.

Heeding advice from folks on here I downloaded my rounds to near minimum charge.

TL...2.9gr W231 and air cooled
TR...2.9gr W231 water cooled
BL...3.2gr W231 water
BR...3.2gr W 231 air

This was at ~15 yards from a makeshift rest. I scrubbed the barrel every twenty shots.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7499/imgp4895i.jpg (http://img40.imageshack.us/i/imgp4895i.jpg/)

As you can see, the water dropped 3.2 gave the tightest pattern, but still not up to snuff for this CZ. Also note the couple tumblers at lower right with 3.2/air cooled.

An old timer at the range also casts/reloads and suggested I try Bullseye, so we'll see what that does. He also said the Lee TC boolit is notorious for tumbling issues and suggested I get the RN next time, so my mold may be up for sale here soon.

Hope this helps someone.

[405]

Sometimes even though the rotational, gyroscopic stability should be there with any particular bullet, through a particular twist and at a particular velocity-- other things may over-ride the theory.

I know in certain handguns the length of the bullet's bearing surface can really help keep the axis of the bullet plumb to the bore so the "spin" can do it's stabilization job most effectively. That may account for why wadcutters can be so very accurate in some handguns. Same for any long shank, short nose design.

Also, bullets have a pretty "rough ride" from magazine to muzzle exit especially in semi autos. Jbullets are much more rugged when it comes to that rough ride and may provide a clue to another possible factor for more accurate cast shooting in that gun. If I'm reading the results correctly, looks like the better groups were shot with the slightly harder bullets.

[Willbird]

9x19 historically had a very fast twist, there have been a couple magazine articles exploring the WHY of this. I'm not sure what the twist in the CZ is.

I found this on wikipedia


The common rifling twist rate for this cartridge is 250 mm (1 in 9.84 in), 6 grooves, ø lands = 8.82 mm, ø grooves = 9.02 mm, land width = 2.49 mm and the primer type is small pistol.

Compare that to say 357 magnum, which uses even longer/heavier bullets.........but often has a 1/16 rifling twist.



Bill

[GabbyM]

Tight twist in 9 x 19mm. It's their for a reason.

To pass the NATO penetration test the bullet must pass through sixteen inches of dense pine board with two air gaps set in the stack. I know this test post dates the fast twist in 9mm half a century but the idea of shooting through trees and such is not new. If the bullet tumbles or yaws much it will fail this penetration test. The air gaps are their to help it yaw if it wants to. 124 grain FMJ 9 x 19mm penetrates barriers out of all expectations of unenlightened shooters. When USA Law enforcement got hold of the 9 x 19mm back in the seventies someone got the bright idea of loading them with what is basically a 38 Special bullet. 147Gr hollow points. Not surprisingly they performed just like a 38 Special revolver. Not happy some other lost souls invented the 40 S&W to fix a problem that did not exist. Since the only failure of the 9 x 19 was the misguided ammo choice of LE. Some of which was induced by Lawyers using a term “over penetration”. I'll keep my penetration thank you and I'll take it with a 124 grain truncated cone flat point at 1200fps. It blows twice as big a hole in ballistic clay as a 45 acp ball round and will penetrate right through an automobile. Stays pretty well on tract after penetrating auto glass which a 45 acp does not. Neither will a 38 Special revolver which comes back to the fast twist stabilized higher velocity light bullet.

The real bummer is Hornady has stopped making their 124-fmj-fp and gone to a new encapsulated target bullet which has from the looks of pictures a smaller meplat. Guess I'll just have to cast my own.

[Willbird]

The real answer for the tight twist as far as it could be dredged from history was that the germans felt it would help long range accuracy in colt weather. Anything the 9x19 can do the 45 acp can do better, and at 1/2 to 1/3 the chamber pressure.

The 147 grain HP was not even around in the 70's when the 9x19 earned it's well deserved bad rep as a poor stopper.

Every generation tries to come up with a new wonder bullet for the 9x19 that makes it as good or better than the larger calibers (which for some reason they do not test the new wonder bullet too ), and they fail every time. Plain and simple you cannot take a little tiny bullet, and make it do more damage than a larger heavier bullet.

In the end the only defensible position the 9x19 fanciers end up with is "I cannot handle the recoil of a larger caliber" or "I miss a lot so an extra 3-4 ctg in my magazine WILL matter to me someday maybe".

I think the 9x19 is a fine ctg, in a little tiny gun...but in a big full sized pistol, why use such a little puny ctg ?? :-).

Bill

[deltaenterprizes]

Try 147 gr bullets, more bearing surface for the 1:9 twist in your CZ barrel.
The first 147 gr loads I saw were subsonic for use with suppressed firearms.

[awaveritt]

I am runing Lee 356-124-2R through my CZ75B over 3.5gr. of BE with decent accuracy and no keyholes. The 2R round nose might have a bit more bearing surface.

[Daddyfixit]

Ha ha, My dad was in the 10th Mnt Div kicked open a door and was shot by officer carrying a P-08 luger, it hit him right in his belt buclkle plus all the cold weather ski troop gear and left bearly a bruse, In turn he emtptied his 45acp at the flash. My older brother still has the gun & holster! Needless to say how my dad felt about replaceing the 45 with the 9mm!


The real answer for the tight twist as far as it could be dredged from history was that the germans felt it would help long range accuracy in colt weather. Anything the 9x19 can do the 45 acp can do better, and at 1/2 to 1/3 the chamber pressure.

The 147 grain HP was not even around in the 70's when the 9x19 earned it's well deserved bad rep as a poor stopper.

Every generation tries to come up with a new wonder bullet for the 9x19 that makes it as good or better than the larger calibers (which for some reason they do not test the new wonder bullet too ), and they fail every time. Plain and simple you cannot take a little tiny bullet, and make it do more damage than a larger heavier bullet.

In the end the only defensible position the 9x19 fanciers end up with is "I cannot handle the recoil of a larger caliber" or "I miss a lot so an extra 3-4 ctg in my magazine WILL matter to me someday maybe".

I think the 9x19 is a fine ctg, in a little tiny gun...but in a big full sized pistol, why use such a little puny ctg ?? :-).

Bill

[dualsport]

Gabby, just so you don't feel alone I also like the same loads. I am perfectly happy with a 9mm fmj with a flat point. To duplicate that with cast would be a good trick but a worthwhile goal, if you had a very very hard boolit going fast. I am a penetration fan above all else, except maybe accuracy. My thoughts are get it in there first and SP and HP give me no confidence of that. I was trained in the Mozambique school of thought, and a 9mm works good for that. And you can drop a bunch of bad guys with a 18 rd. mag. Following W-bird's logic, if you can't place your shots well, then maybe you need a bigger caliber. Once I've done my job, I don't know who would go down first, someone shot in the guts with a .45 or a guy shot twice thru the heart and once in the brain box with a 9mm fmj. Maybe if shot placement isn't your strong point you should consider a 12 ga., bigger is better, right?

[chris in va]

Massive thread drift going on!:coffee:

I forgot to add, the gentleman I talked with said those tumbling reloads would make very good home defense rounds. Not very accurate but certainly would put a stop to any foul intentions!

For reference here's some of my old, hotter loads that tumbled badly. They were also shot from a clean barrel. I also need to point out they have a much shorter OAL than the others if that makes any difference.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6550/imgp49004305805.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/imgp49004305805.jpg/)

[GabbyM]

first I'll offer the OP chris n va a free box of 147 grain 9mm sized at .357" as consolidation to my hijacking his thread. Just PM me your address if you'd like to try them. Deltaenterprise thinks they may work better so go for it. He knows his stuff.

Second I'm hijacking this thread. :hijack:

If I've came across as PO'd it's because I woke up that way not because of anything I read here on boolits. So no personal implications please. We are talking bullet diameters not a mans worth in the eyes of our lord.

[GabbyM]

Willbird I respectfully disagree with every thing you wrote. On post #5

I will say that if I was a police officer I'd prefer to carry a 45 auto. They do have their strong points. After all they can shoot flat point bullets too. However if I was young again and going to the sand box I'd want the 9mm.

As far as no heavy bullets in the seventies ? British military used heavy bullets in 9mm early in the last century. They abandoned them at some point. Speer didn't initiate heavy 9mm bullets. My memory was telling me that all went on in the late seventies but I have CRS.

Also I never said a 45 acp wasn't a good gun and don't really want to get into a pissing contest. Facts are though a 9 x 19 has a better one shot one kill record than the 45 acp. So where do you come up with this poor stopping reputation? I call that a myth propagated by gents like you who want to always believe they have the best of everything. No statistical data supports that myth. 9 x19mm will far out penetrate a 45 acp. It will penetrate straighter through auto glass. Not just a little straighter either. It's in an entirely different class. 357 mag revolver trumps them both of course. When you get down to it either a 9mm or 45 is just a pip squeak pistol. That whole line about stopping power when referring to these little pistols is just silly. I personally used to know two men whom had emptied their 45's into little 80 pound Vietnamese girls . One never went down and he had to finish the job with his bare hands. Neither girl had any cloths on at the time as the common practice was to lay them outside the door, before entering with a knife, so no blood stains got on their clothing as criminal evidence. One was in a tent. One in a hotel room. Yes the NVA were out to kill you while you slept.
Speculation would be their children were being held hostage by the NVA as motivation to carry out the mission. Just one more reason these men had and in one case will have nightly nightmares. The other fellow has passed on. As far as marksmanship they were both shooting at sound in a pitch dark environment. Muzzle flash strobe lighted their target. Both were alive after because they slept with a pistol under their pillow and were highly trained soldiers with a will to live. Didn't make a bit of difference what caliber their pistol was. For that particular scenario by the time you went Winchester you would have either made your hits or you'd be hand to hand or both. The 1911 held enough ammo in both cases.

And by the way Willbird. I grew up with a man whom had waves of Chinese soldiers sent at him and his picket line. They could see the officers assembling men for the next wave to come at them. This was in Korea during the conflict. After two days of this bodies were piled up so high out front they couldn't see the human waves coming. Their was a perimeter fence with bodies piles up to make a ramp for breaching over the top. PRC was about to get the job done when what was left of an infantry unit off the front lines came in and set up 50 caliber BMG. Gunners connected the T&E with an assigned zone of fire. When the waves came gunners fired through the pile sweeping their zone. Truck loads off ammo later at the end of the day the pile of bodies was lowered. This was at a POW camp next to an air base. The Chinese officers commanding the assault had allowed themselves to be captured in order to lead this. Two camps were used in this way during a Chinese offensive. Goal of the Chinese objective was to shut down the US air bases. Chinese KIA were well over twenty K at both battles. The air bases were K*?* and K*?*. I can't remember the numbers but the battles are well known. Gorey details are left out of history books. I relay them to fellows like Willbird to prep him for a question. Plus a little “least we forget”. As follows. When you and two hundred brothers in arms are facing down thirty-three thousand enemy. Would you want a 45 with eight rounds of ammo or a 9mm with fifteen rounds of ammo in a single magazine? This to back up your rifle. Or your crew maned gun. Whichever as any sane man doesn't' take a pistol into a fight like that as a primary. In fact any seasoned infantryman will dump the pistol in favor of a couple grenades in the load. But that's besides the point here. It's a fixed position scenario so we have the luxury of not carrying our entire load. Given this you can have the same number of rounds in a box at your position with 45 or 9mm. Just not as many in the mags. That's a giveaway since in real life a truck load is a truck load at X tons.

In case you all haven't figured it out. My argument is 45 acp ammo is dead weight in a combat environment. As a gun by your bedside in the middle of the night it's great. Shooting rattle snakes 45's are far superior to a 9mm as the big bullets will open a snake up while the little 9's just punch 9mm holes in them. Shooting a bear the 9mm will out penetrate a 45 acp by at least four inches. But that doesn't stop the 45acp fans from stating with authority a 9mm is no darn good for bear defense while a 45 acp is the way to go. Fact is neither one is what you'd wish to have in hand against a bruin. I carry a 44 revolver in the field for sport. Blast the innards out of anything but it's no modern combat gun. It's also what I keep next to my bed. Shucks if six rounds of 240 grain HP at 1550 fps don't get it done I'm hosed. And why would I want one of my 1911's loaded next to me when I have a 44 mag revolver?

I don't have a son but if I did and he was going off to war in need of a side arm I'd hand him my old 2nd generation S&W 659 in 9 x 19mm. I'd spray it with paint first to knock off the SS shine. Fact is the US Army has made the same decision with the M9. You simply can not justify the weight of the 45 round in a military situation. especially since in military requirements the 45 acp falls short of the 9 x 19mm in every test pistol rounds are required to meet. Yes there is no requirement for the size of an exit wound after four inches of penetration. For good reason.

You all want to carry a 45 acp for personal protection then fine with me. For sure has proven to work very well. But don't try telling me a 9mm is in any way what so ever inferior. You can't prove it because it's just not a fact. Sure you can load the 9mm with some fouled up ammo and neuter it. I can do that to a 45 also. Harder to mess up a 45 load than a 9mm. Just like it's harder to mess up a 7mm rifles deer hunting load than a 6mm load. Smaller the caliber the more important bullet selection becomes.
Whatever I have at hand in the moment I'll put lead on point of aim. Or I'll fail. Thar's hits and there's misses .094” of bullet diameter wont' mean diddly squat.

[Mel-4857]

Hi Chris,
Never had a tumbling problem with a pistol but with my rifles(mil surp) its usually caused by under sized boolits. Ed Harris ran an article in an older Fouling Shot Magazine which stated many 9mm bores are oversized(greater than.355) and most 9mm's shoot better with a larger boolit like .357.
Might be worth a try. Mel

[9.3X62AL]

Much of the LE conversion to the "Sub-Sonic 147 Grain Bullet" came after the 1986 Miami bank robber shootout with FBI, in which the 9mm 115 grain Silvertip load was cast in the role of "bad guy" post-incident. FBI re-discovered the 147 grain sub-sonic load, and touted it as The Next New Best Thing Ever.

I'll get off onto a wide-ranging tangent concerning the 9mm, but since a number of posters have stated things I've posted or thought previously--I'll refrain from further OFF TOPIC COMMENTARY. My bad.

I have a couple different 125 grain-class TC designs, the Lee and an NEI. Both shoot GREAT in all of my 9mm pistols, sized @ .357" and in 92/6/2 alloy. BHn is ~12-13. I also have 2 RN designs in this same weight-class, the Lee 2R and Lyman #358242. These shoot very well also, same sizing and metallurgy. Basically, the 9mm pistol should be treated a lot like a rifle......because they ARE a lot like a rifle! High pressures (for a peestol) + fast twist rates = rifle environment. Hard boolits, soft lubes, correct sizing. Use the THROAT to predicate boolit diameter, to hell with the rifling depth. It will fit itself after transitioning the throat IN THE CORRECT DIAMETER. THINK RIFLE.

[Daddyfixit]

Sorry, I didn't mean to step on any toes....it just made me chuckle thinking about dads war story of how he got a P-08 ( to this day my fav to shoot!)

As for keeping on topic I had a revolver that punched key holes and after reading some great info on this sight I got it fixed. Under sized boolits was my issue. I was able get the mould to cast larger dia boolits by following a post by BEAGLE on the subject. Trying .001 or .002 larger might help tighten your groups to?

[35remington]

I very, very seriously doubt the assertion that there's something about the truncated cone shape offered by Lee that makes it more prone to tumbling, and less than satisfactory as a bullet choice.

I'd suggest your problems are still what they were before....potentially undersized bullets. The reduced charges don't make them larger in diameter, and their accuracy is still unsatisfactory.

I find tumbling bullets symptomatic of undersized bullets, more so than any other cause in cast bullet use.

Off topic: Some of the pronouncements here about the "one shot stop" capability and relative value of various pistol cartridges are quite humorous. No person asserting about "stopping power" here has the certain knowledge to be making the statements they are pronouncing as truth.

Verbosity doesn't make one right......nor does making statements of very questionable validity. "Extremely Unsubstantiated Hearsay" would be overcrediting their veracity by quite a bit.

It's interesting to see how the less knowledgeable we are about a topic, the more polarized and definitive statements we make, when in truth the exact opposite should occur.

[chris in va]

My barrel slugs out to .355, my boolits drop at .357.

[35remington]

Then you may have a first.....tumbling bullets that aren't undersized! The barrel could be nonuniform in its interior, as measurements that are accurate may be hard to come by.

Stability issues shouldn't be inherent to the truncated cone shape versus ball, especially given the relatively long bearing surface of the TC shape. Usually bearing surface is longer than ball, lending stability. Overall length is no longer, which means it isn't hard to stabilize. Which is why I find the accusation of inherent tumbling to the TC shape in this caliber very hard to swallow.

An unbalanced bullet to some other cause is possible, I guess, but you'd have to measure/weigh a sample to see the quality of your castings, which shouldn't be hard to do.

The next thing to look at is the chamber and throat of your pistol. Time to get out the Cerrosafe. If anything's off, lead bullets would be showing problems before jacketed, at least in my experience. That's what you seem to have going on here.

[robertbank]

Alright guys, here's the results from my 124gr TC boolit issue.

Heeding advice from folks on here I downloaded my rounds to near minimum charge.

TL...2.9gr W231 and air cooled
TR...2.9gr W231 water cooled
BL...3.2gr W231 water
BR...3.2gr W 231 air

This was at ~15 yards from a makeshift rest. I scrubbed the barrel every twenty shots.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7499/imgp4895i.jpg (http://img40.imageshack.us/i/imgp4895i.jpg/)

As you can see, the water dropped 3.2 gave the tightest pattern, but still not up to snuff for this CZ. Also note the couple tumblers at lower right with 3.2/air cooled.

An old timer at the range also casts/reloads and suggested I try Bullseye, so we'll see what that does. He also said the Lee TC boolit is notorious for tumbling issues and suggested I get the RN next time, so my mold may be up for sale here soon.

Hope this helps someone.
Let me say I load thousands of 9MM rounds each year and they are in the main 124 gr TC bullets. There is nothing wrong with the bullet shape for the 9MM.

I would suggest:

1. Your loads are very light. Try 4.1 gr of Win 231 under that bullet. This is a load I use to make PF for IPSC and IDPA. The load is very accurate and over my Chrony the Standard Deviation is less than 10. I suspect you are not driving the bullets fast enough for the rifling to stablize the bullet.

As to powders I would not go below 231 as far as a fast powder. The 9MM tneds to favour powders such as Unique and Universal. Unique doesn't meter all that well so I stayed with Win 231. I found Titegroup to be two hot a powder and cases come out all sooted. I attribute this to a slower pressure curve whereby the case does not seal the chamber fast enough. Titegroup works well in the .40cal case but not so good in 9MM.

Take Care

Bob
ps sorry I missed the part where you size to .357. That should work great in your CZ

[deltaenterprizes]

When using 147 gr bullets in the 9mm you must keep MAXIMUM overall length. The bullet takes up a lot of case capacity, use slower burning powders also.

Thank you Gabby.

When I got my first 9mm in the early 1980s the thoughts were 115 JHPs were the way to go, how times change.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Funny, I have some tumbling .38 spls out of my 70s vintage Model 60. The load is pure lead air cooled 358091 148 gr wadcutters with a max charge of 5.0 gr Herco. They get side ways in 10 feet! Velocity is 900 to 930 fps. I've seen this before using Unique. I'll back the charge down to get around 800 to 850 fps where a short barreled .38 should be, and the super soft boolits will go straight. Hopefully I'll get there with 4.5 grains of Herco, maybe this weekend.

In my case, the soft boolits are probably striping the rifling, haven't found any to look at. Or put in other terms, the boolit is not standing the pressure of the load. My dimensions are proper, but my load is to hot for the soft lead.

Just a comment.

Oh, and just in case anyone cares to compare the attributes of my .38s to 9mm or 45acp, well I just use my .38s for fun, mostly. But my security gets delegated to .357, and a 5 shot one at that.

To quote my Dad in a gun deal for a 3-screw Ruger, "If I can't hit it in 5 shots, I can't hit it".

[9.3X62AL]

Both 35 Remington and RobertBank have made some very constructive suggestions in their texts. I use 4.0-4.5 grains of WW-231 with the 125 grain boolits quite a bit. The upper end of that scale is a bit warmish, but the boolits stay accurate and run about 1225 FPS from my P-226 and P-89.

[dualsport]

I like 'em too. Great all-purpose gun. Mine is a newer .357 w/adj. sights. Liked it so much I bought another one for my son to take to Iraq, the Army wouldn't allow it. Anyway, now he's back we're gonna send 'em off to S&W for matching laser engraving. Oh, tumbling, (!), everything comes out straight in mine so far. (Nice save?) I think I'll start a new thread.

[robertbank]

dualsport - faster powders take up less room. To make 125 PF using my 154 gr Lyman bullets I use 2.7 grains which is a very soft shooting load for IPSC and IDPA. Max OAL unfortunately is determined by the bullet olgive and heavy bullets are as you suggest very long.

Take Care

Bob

[Harter66]

Deleted with consent of the poster

[robertbank]

Deleted

[dougader]

Hmmm. I used to cast the very same TL bullet a lot and used straight wheel weights and Lee liquid alox lube. I shot these in a Glock 19 for IPSC matches long before everyone said it was dangerous to shoot lead bullets in polygonal rifled barrels.

My load was 4.2 - 4.5 grains W231 powder; whatever I needed to get me a smidge over 1,000 fps. I never had a bullet tumble in tens of thousands of rounds fired.

Sorry I can't offer any ideas to help.

[fecmech]

Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms........who's bringing the Chips & Salsa?

I love it 9.3X62 Al !!

[Harter66]

My apoligies. I merely was offering a point to the "hi jackers". I will try again.

Hi I'm Richard. I have made only 1 other post here but have spent about a week reading nearly 200 treads before finding 1 I could knowlegably contribute to.

I shoot a FEG HP9 with the LEE 124gr TL356-124-TC cast from jacketed bullet cores and water quenched straight from the mould. I use the Darr lube formula on them mine drop at about 127gr and .358 dia. I apply only enough crimp to get the case straight and seat to the top of the top band with (after refering to my load book)4.0 Unique or 3.5 Red Dot. After achieving reliable cycling I had no more tumbling issues.

My total suggestion summed up is that perhaps the powder case hard bullet combination just doesn't work in that particular gun. Maybe try softer bullets or different powder.

Thanks for the warm welcome.

[robertbank]

Welcome to the forum.

Take Care

Bob

[Cloudpeak]

Chris,

I could have sworn I responded to this thread. Perhaps on another forum?

I've had good luck with the Lee 124 RN TL bullet cast from wheel weights, air cooled, sized to .357, lubed with LLA with a charge of 3.6gr of W231 in several 9mm's including a CZ Compact.

Best groups in the CZ were .81" O.H. and .70" from a bench at 7 yards. My best group with the same load through my 5" STI Trojan was .26" at 7 yards and 2.5" O.H. at 25 yards and 2.45" from a bench at the same distance with 4 shot going .90".

I'm sorry to read of the problems with the Lee TC design because I was just fixin to order a mold. I hope you get your problem figured out.

If you'd like to swap some RN for TC's, send me a pm.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/WyoBob/Guns/DSCN2109.jpg

Cloudpeak

[deltaenterprizes]

That pic shows a STI not a CZ!

[Cloudpeak]

That pic shows a STI not a CZ!

Well, I didn't have a picture of a target with the CZ using the 124gr RN[smilie=1:

But, as we were talking about the 125gr RN loads and I mentioned the STI, I posted the only picture I had with that bullet load.

But, just for you, here's a CZ Compact picture with target but the load used was with the Lee 105gr SWC bullet:) I like this little bullet but it didn't feed 100% in the CZ with the factory magazines. Frustrating when a FTF costs you a match so I shot the 124gr in the CZ Compact and it functioned 100%.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/WyoBob/CZ75%20Compact/DSCN1978.jpg

[NHlever]

A couple of things come to mind although I have no experience with cast boolits in a 9mm. It could be that the bore diameter of your gun is larger at the muzzle than at the breech end, that could cause problems. The other thing is that although you are sizing / loading boolits that are .357 diameter, the case could be sizing them down smaller. Check the size of your expander plug, and perhaps make a dummy round with a .357 jacketed bullet to see if the case diameter is the same after seating the bullet as it is with your cast loads....... just a couple of thoughts.