45-90 case length

[semtav]

After reading an article by George Liotta on certain new cases being too short, I measured mine. they were fireformed ( just to get them to accurately fit the chamber) with trail boss. They measure 2.390. He claims they will continue to shorten from the next few firings.

Is this true, that they shorten not stretch?

I read another book by a 45-120 shooter that claims the 45-120 will constatnly stretch. what would be the difference?

Planning on using the 45-90 for Long Range (1000 yd) Black Powder shooting.
Am I going to have to invest in a case stretcher if and when I get serious about it? or will they stretch some over time?

Can I get them to stretch if I anneal and size the necks smaller so the bullets have a tighter fit vs push fit bullets?

I want them at 2.4"

thanks

[montana_charlie]

You may prefer to wait for someone other than me to advise you, as I am involved in the sale of case stretchers, but...

When I first started chewing my bottom lip because my 45/90 cases were too short, my first thought was, "These things don't stretch like my bottlenecked smokeless stuff!?!?"

As a matter of fact, they weren't quite 2.4 when they were new, and I even shaved off a tad to 'square up the mouths'. Not only did I not know they wouldn't stretch...I also didn't know they would get shorter the first time they were fired.

Add all of that to the fact that my chamber is .010" longer than 2.4 (you should check yours) and I was looking at thirty-five thousandths of 'ain't long enough'.

My first attempt to fix the problem was to make those cases stretch.
Annealing necks...shoving fat bullets into heavy neck tension...heavy charges...even crimping.

After five cycles I managed to gain a little, but it was not uniform between cases and not near enough increase to continue to waste powder and lead on loads that were neither accurate, nor fun to shoot.

So I invented a stretching jig, which Rick Kalynuik and I developed into an item anybody can operate.

CM

[semtav]

Measured my cast and it looks like the chamber on my Winchester 1885 is 2.415 to the edge of the bevel. so I have a little extra.

Plus most of my 40-65 cases formed from 45-70's wound up a touch too short also, so I may get ahold of you in the future if I decide I want to get them closier to max length.


What is the preferred distance from the end of the case to end of the chamber?
I'm thinkikng about trying .0005 and see if I get any curling of the case mouth.

thanks

[Alan in WI]

First of all you need to have a rifle in your possession. Then you can determine the length of you brass. I found a really simple way was to by a couple Norma brass cases. You can purchase these that are way too long to seat. Then start trimming until the case will seat into your chamber. In my new 45-90 Shiloh Sharps I found that that the chamber was dead nuts, 2.4. The Starline brass that I had was just a tad under size. However, I ordered a tight chamber for shooting paper patch bullets and when I sized the brass, they were good. Hope this helps!

Alan

[montana_charlie]

What is the preferred distance from the end of the case to end of the chamber?
I'm thinkikng about trying .0005 and see if I get any curling of the case mouth.
.0005 sounds reasonable if you insist on having some leeway.
I prefer to have the mouth (on a fireformed case) touch the angle right in the corner.
I have fired 45/90 cases that were .001" too long with no detectable problem.

By the way, our case stretcher is set up for the .45 cases. It is (theoretically) possible to retool it for a different caliber 'fairly' easily...but would need some amount of custom work.

It could stretch a 40/65 case , but only by expanding it out to it's (parent) .45 caliber shape...then stretching it...then sizing it all the way back down.
If you make your 40/65 cases by converting 45/70 brass, you would want to stretch it first...then convert it.

You can learn a fair amount about the Kal-Max Case Stretching Jig at http://kal.castpics.net/
Read it carefully so you know about the porto-power requirement, and watch the linked video to see how it works.

If you are still interested, you can get with me for more information...or order directly from KAL Tool & Die.

CM

[semtav]

alan,

I have plenty of 45-120 brass, and will probably screw up one of those one of these days. then I'll use it that way. but my cast ( actually soft lead bullets pounded in a 45-70 case) seems pretty accurate for now.

I will probably shoot as is till I get to the competency point of wanting to eliminate one more variable.

Charlie
I can't see the internal workings of your tool, is the 40-65 issue just the size of the parts, or is there too much of a taper in that shell to work with your tool? Since you made one to fit the 45 cal , could a part be made by a competent machinist to adapt for the 40-65.

I don't want to rezize my 40-65 brass, and the problem with some of my 40-65 brass, was fireforming max length cases and having them shorten too much.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie
I can't see the internal workings of your tool, is the 40-65 issue just the size of the parts, or is there too much of a taper in that shell to work with your tool? Since you made one to fit the 45 cal , could a part be made by a competent machinist to adapt for the 40-65.

I don't want to rezize my 40-65 brass, and the problem with some of my 40-65 brass, was fireforming max length cases and having them shorten too much.
The tool 'steals brass' from a short area of case wall that starts a bit further than a half inch above the case rim.
To do that, the case wall has to be 'drawn' by being ironed between a die (on the outside) and a punch (on the inside) as the case is pushed through the die. The separation between the die and punch surfaces is less than the thickness of the brass, so 'ironing the brass upward' by pushing the tube through the restriction causes the length to increase.

The inside diameter of the case (down in the worked region) is substantially bigger than the mouth on a 40/65 due to the taper. The punch used would be the same diameter as the one used for a 45/XX, because that is the parent case for the caliber. The inside and outside dimensions are the same...so it needs the same die and punch.

That is why it's necessary to expand the whole case to get the punch in.

On the other hand...
Let's say you start with 45/70 brass that is (say) 2.090" and run it through the stretcher. After full-length sizing that (stretched) case in a 45/70 die, you would see an addition of (say) .035"...or 2.125".
By the time you squeeze that case down to fit a 40/65 taper, it would be very long. Exactly how much...I can't say. But it would be at least .035" longer than what you get with unmodified 45/70 cases.

Once you had a looong 40/65 case, you would trim it to some initial length that is longer than desirable, but able to be chambered. The mouth would have to be slightly undersized for this...by running it up into a f/l sizing die and not expanding it afterward.

Load the case with a fireforming charge, and pack cream of wheat on top to finish filling the case...no bullet used. Fireform it, then trim to the actual length you want. You should see a 'crimp' on the neck near the appropriate spot.

Is that any more clear?
CM

[Lead pot]

Making .40-65 brass from .45-70 should be no problem. In fact you most likely will need to do some trimming. The 2.1 .45-70 case run through the .40-65 die will be about 2.140 +-
Your .45-90 brass if you dont have it all gathered up get .45/2.6 brass and trim it as you need it.
Now don't forget, when you fire the brass in your chamber it will be shorter than a full length case. So don.t trim a case full length sized to the exact length you want because it will be short after you fire it.
A case a few 1000's to long is just as bad as one to short because it gets pulled up in the throat a little. You will see the case mouth look like it has a roll crimp if it is to long.
A unsized case .006 short of the chamber end is not to short because the case will get pulled some by the powder and bullet gripping the case wall when it is fired and spring back some.
Just like the case neck wall will also spring back about .004 from the actual chamber wall even if the case neck has just been annealed.
You can verify this taking a chamber cast and take measurements. A cast will also give you the precise case length you need. There would be no guessing.
Kurt

[semtav]

Kurt,
I bought quite a bit of 45-90 Starline brass pretty cheap, so I guess I'll have to decide if its better to stretch the cases and hope I get a little more powder capacity or buy some 45-2.6 cases, after I get most of the bugs out of my blackpowder reloading and proficient with the gun .

Am I understanding you correctly that you recommend cases being about .006 shorter than max allowable length for black powder? If so, what measurement are you using. Would chambers cast, chambers slugged, and cases trimmed till they just fit give you three different readings? Since I made my chamber cast by pounding soft lead in a case til it filled up the freebore , I thought that (hammering the case against the block) would compensate for the give in the block when fired and any cases trimmed to that exact length would wind up a touch long. whereas a case trimmed slowly till it just touched the bevel might spring back as much from the give in the block as the case stretches. Or is the give in the block (mine is a New Winchester 1885 Highwall) measureable?

Thanks


Charlie
I never thought about fireforming the cases while they were still too long without a bullet then trimming. I've been trying to figure out how I was going to trim them to max, then fireform them and still wind up with long enough cases if they shrunk.



My 40-65 cases being too short was just my screwup in resizing and fireforming

[semtav]

After pondering my own questions, I'm thinking the best way to get correct case length for my particular gun is to size the cases just long enough so they are curling the lip after shooting, then trim a thousandth, shoot again , etc until it stops curling and that would be ideal case length for that gun and that load.

[montana_charlie]

I'll have to decide if its better to stretch the cases and hope I get a little more powder capacity or buy some 45-2.6 cases, after I get most of the bugs out of my blackpowder reloading and proficient with the gun .

The increase in powder capacity is not a reason for matching cases to chamber depth. It does not even (directly) affect accuracy of your loads.
The tendency for grease goooved bullets to 'shave lead in the gap', and paper patched bullet to leave 'paper rings' in the chamber...are the primary reasons for achieving a perfect fit.

I turned to it initially to cure the leading problem.
(And, don't think I didn't try bullet sizing, lube changes, and alloy hardness while trying to cure the problem.)

About your 45/90 brass and the need for fireforming...
When you stretch a .45 case in the KMCSJ, that case still needs to be run into a f/l sizer before it will chamber.
As a matter of fact, the length you just added won't even show until you do that resizing.

The thing is...you get to decide whether or not to run it all the way in.

If your normal reloading practice is to use full length resized brass, then you simply do that to the freshly stretched case. Then you trim it to the desired length. It will shorten at firing, but when you resize it, it will come back to the trimmed-to length.

BUT, if you prefer to shoot fireformed brass, you are in luck!

You work with the first stretched case until you get everything figured out...then your tools are all set to do the rest without fumbling around.

You back your f/l sizer out of the press about six or eight turns, and run the case in. Then you check to see if it will begin to enter the chamber.
(It probably won't, yet)
Turn the die in some, and try again.

At some point you will start getting close to the case going fully in, but it still gets 'wedged' at the back of the chamber. During all of this resizing, the case has been growing longer, too.
Somewhere in here, you will have to determine if you need to trim a little off...just to keep from getting too long for your tools.

When you get to the point where your case goes in the chamber with about triple the rim thickness still sticking out...you want to expand the case mouth to a .460" ID so it is at fireformed diameter.
That will also make it able to contact the end of the chamber with a solid 'bump'.

Now, when you insert the case, you feel to see if it stops because it 'wedges' (gets stuck from being too fat) or 'bumps' the end of the chamber.

If it won't fully chamber because it wedges...you resize it a little more.
If it won't chamber because it bumps, you trim it a little.

Just remember to re-expand that case mouth after each trip into the sizing die.

By balancing these two 'feels' until the case just chambers...you end up with a case that matches chamber depth perfectly AND it is so close to fireformed dimension the difference is undetectable.

ADDITIONALLY, your full length sizer, and your trimmer, are perfectly set to do the rest of your cases after you stretch them.
You just have to remember to get that mouth expanded before you trim.

So, you get fireformed brass without firing a shot...and the Cream Of Wheat can be used for breakfast.

CM

[Don McDowell]

I'm thinking you might be looking to fix a problem that you don't have.
If you're not having leading problems in the throat then there's probably not a problem with the case length.
If you're chasing accuracy the little bit extra of case length may or may not help.

Do some load developement and a good bit of trigger time , get the barrel settled in before you start worrying about a problem some guy got paid to write an article about.

[semtav]

My reference to the increased powder capacity was a side issue, figuring you are thinning the walls. (have you done any tests on increased powder capacity when you stretch the necks) assuming you are seating the bullet to the same OAL.

I am hell on directions, usually needing the gizmo in front of me , doing it wrong a couple times, then understanding what the directions meant, but I think I understand what you are saying.

I only size a portion of the neck now on my 40-65 with smokeless, and figure on doing less (or none) with black powder
thanks
Brian

[Don McDowell]

You know you've got a couple of very good shooters right there in town. Joe Corley, and Elwin Brunner both know their way around bpcr rifles. Might not be a bad thing to get some"hands on" help from either one of those guys.

[semtav]

Don
Yes you are right, I don't have a problem, and am probably going to shoot up my 40-65 brass as is, and probably shoot some of the 45-90 shells as are for a while too. Plus I'm probably not a good enough shooter at this point to tell the difference it may make in accuracy.But, Its cold and miserable out, and I have too much time to ponder vs when its warm and I'm busy and want to be trying different things. At least I'll have a better understanding of what is happening and what I may want to try.
Thanks
Brian

[Don McDowell]

:bigsmyl2: Brian sometimes we try to make this stuff into a mega complicated deal.It's really not all that technical. You may or may not benefit from getting sucked into some of this stuff. But unless and until you get into trying to unseat longrange paper punchers at Phoenix or Raton from their thrones, it's just not worth the hassle. And even at that a scum bucket gong shooter can sometimes show up and scare those guys enough to get their panties wadded.:redneck:

[montana_charlie]

You may or may not benefit from getting sucked into some of this stuff.
semtav,
If you ever start feeling like you're being "sucked", you be sure to make it known.

CM

[semtav]

You know you've got a couple of very good shooters right there in town. Joe Corley, and Elwin Brunner both know their way around bpcr rifles. Might not be a bad thing to get some"hands on" help from either one of those guys.

yea, and Rick & Gary and Buz. (all in the top 40 at the Quigley)I've been picking up tidbits from all of them.
After my poor performance at the last shoot, I've revamped my whole casting and loading program and started putting in lots of trigger time. (Till this storm hit anyways)

[semtav]

semtav,
If you ever start feeling like you're being "sucked", you be sure to make it known.

CM

Too late, I think I started getting that sucked in feeling about 2 days after the 40-65 showed up.

[Don McDowell]

Well hang in there Brian, you'll get on to this thing quick enough. You've got lots of good folks there to guide you thru the intricate parts.

[semtav]

Guess if you search long enough you just seem to come full circle.

http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8606

Shot 30 bullets today to form the cases ( with 24 gr Trail Boss) and wound up with some leading.

Never even thought of using my borescope. Maybe next time I'll use it and see where the leading is.

Since I have quite a pile of new Brass, I'll probably get the stretcher. Then I'll eliminate one possible reason or future problem. I like gizmos anyway, so i'll get to see what he came up with for a stretcher.

[Don McDowell]

24 grs of trailboss is a pretty steamy hot load....
So what happens when you spend the dollars for the case stretcher and you still get leading, and not what you're hoping for accuracy?

[montana_charlie]

Guess if you search long enough you just seem to come full circle.
Boy! I forgot about that old thread!
I still have the prototype 'fixture' I cobbled together with information from that discussion.
It was a bugger to use...but it did stretch cases.

If you have the patience to read the whole thread (while keeping track of the dates for the individual posts) you can see the entire two-year 'evolution'...from concept to finished product...of the Kal-Max Case Stretching Jig.

Doubters like Mr. McDowell can see that 'the problem' with short cases was not my discovery...nor a 'pipe dream' that I made up as an inducement to buy my invention.
It was the result of research by much more experienced shooters than myself.

Their research and experimentation told me why I was having trouble...and what was needed to fix it.

Those gentlemen (some of them), devised cures for the problem...cures that relied on the power and precision of a lathe and the associated tooling they built for the purpose.
One of them (Kurt) built his own 'stretcher'...using my ideas...but configured it to work in his swaging press.
Kurt started the thread, and stretching his cases cured the leading problem that was troubling him.

My 'poor man's solution' was to devise some 'associated tooling' that sells for enough to provide a profit for the machinist who builds it.
But, uses a hundred dollar porta power to make it go... instead of an expensive lathe or swaging press.
It also had to be bulletproof enough for anybody to use without creating a dangerous situation for himself.

The first batch of stretchers were sold at cost, just to get some out in the hands of shooters. Since that time, I have had no connection with Rick's sales other than to provide information for owners and prospective buyers.

If you DID read that whole thread, you saw where I said I wasn't in this project to make money. My only goal was to develop something that anybody could use for fitting cases to his rifle.

I met the goal...and never made a dime...but I did end up owning one honey of a tool to stretch my cases.

CM

[semtav]

24 grs of trailboss is a pretty steamy hot load....

Is it? I was using 26 grains in the 45-120 for the starting load (about 70% of full) and that didn't seem too bad. So I started out with 20 grains in the 45-90 and I was dribbling the bullets up to the target.

I had tried 3 different bullets with that load and the 457125 put 8 in a 5" group @ 300 yds. (off the hood of my pickup). So for a quick throw together load, I didn't think that was too bad. They were even the last 8 I shot.



So what happens when you spend the dollars for the case stretcher and you still get leading, and not what you're hoping for accuracy?

Then I'll probably put it with the 5280 other gizmo's I've got laying around the shop that I've only used once or twice. [smilie=b:

[semtav]

Since this post subsided, I've read several places about cases stretching if the lube was left on the case or a chamber wasn't dry when shooting (black powder wiping).

Has anyone actually tried to stretch their cases by leaving some type of lube on the case?

(Just grinding brain cells tonight)

[montana_charlie]

I think that kind of stretching is blamed for head separations, and similar problems.
CM

[Gunlaker]

I think that kind of stretching is blamed for head separations, and similar problems.
CM

I agree. :mrgreen: I once accidentally "stretched a .50-140 case in half" by forgetting to dry the chamber. You could see hydraulic dents in the top half of the case.

Chris.

[semtav]

:mrgreen: ha,
I think I'll leave that idea alone.
Haven't heard back from Canada yet on the stretcher, they're probably overwhelmed with all the global warming!

[montana_charlie]

Haven't heard back from Canada yet on the stretcher, they're probably overwhelmed with all the global warming!
That's surprising. How long ago did you contact him?
CM

[semtav]

Just the other day. He got back to me last night.

[montana_charlie]

Okay...

[semtav]

Charlie

Just out of curiosity, has anyone used the stretcher to make 40-82 Crossno brass out of 45-70 cases?

Brian

[montana_charlie]

To the best of my knowledge, everybody who has a Kal-Max Case Stretching Jig uses it to stretch .45 caliber straight walled cases. That's all it is set up to do.

But, a jig is a device for holding an object in a certain way, so that some kind of operation can be performed on it.
A drilling jig, set up for precisely drilling half inch holes in a machined part, could be reconfigured to drill quarter inch holes...or to drill holes in an object of a different shape.

We have never developed 'parts' dimensioned for other calibers because nobody has ever gotten serious about wanting some.

After using the KMCSJ (and seeing how it does it's job) a guy with a modicum of mechanical appitude might decide to make changes that would give it the capability to work on a different straight walled case.

It would work (as supplied) on 40/65, but the case would need to have the taper taken out before stretching...then put back in. That's a lot of 'working' for the brass to absorb.

40/82 Crossno?
I don't know the case dimensions, or how it is shaped...and the 'quick reference' website where I look for case dimensions only has 40/82 Winchester - a case with a mild bottleneck.

CM

[semtav]

the 40-82 Crossno is a stretched version of the 40-65. can be made with 45-90 cases, but I think Buffalo Arms uses stretched 45-70 cases to make them. (probably wrong)
Be another use for my stretcher to stretch the cheaper 45-70 and then size to 40-82 than to trim the expensive 45-90 cases.
I'll have to try one when I get it.
Brian

[montana_charlie]

Be another use for my stretcher to stretch the cheaper 45-70 and then size to 40-82 than to trim the expensive 45-90 cases.
I'll have to try one when I get it.
Brian
Just keep in mind that where the website says, "Simple adjustments allow the user to vary the amount of “Stretch or Draw” required, up to a maximum of approximately 0.050”., that maximum is only attainable with the thickest brass you are likely to find...unless you modify the tool.

Rick and I have had a couple of discussions (lately) about an upgrade which would stretch 45/70 to 45/90, but we have not yet made any new 'parts' to experiment with.

It would entail a complete redesign of the currently supplied punch. The new punch would be a 'one job deal' meaning it would only stretch 45/70 to 45/90.
It could not be used for anything else.

I have been hesitant to go forward for two reasons.
- Nobody has wanted the capability bad enough to ask for it.
- I have read posts where guys with stretched-to-45/90 brass were having problems with split cases.

In any event, I would only recommend using brand new Remington cases for stretching from 45/70 to 45/90. They have the heaviest wall now that Bell is gone from the market.

CM

[semtav]

since I don't think a 40-82 is a full length resized 45-90, I doubt one would have to stretch the 45-70 full length.

[semtav]

Just thought I'd give an update on The Case Stretcher.

I was wanting to stretch my cases .030. After removing two adjustment washers, it gave me a couple thousanths over .030. just what I was wanting.
this was with unannealed Starline Brass once fired with BP or 22 gr 4759.


Another plus, is it works great as a pressure guage. The Bad News is how I found that out. I "fireformed" about 100 cases using 24 gr trailboss.


24 grs of trailboss is a pretty steamy hot load....

Seems maybe I should have heeded Dons advice and at least made a carefull assessment of the cases.

Seems they are a tad larger a little up from the base and won't go in the stretcher.

Now before I go jump off a cliff, is this normal using high pressure loads. the shells drop right in to my 45-90 and 45-120 so they aren't tight near the base.
I know Browning Chambers are a touch on the large side.
Is there a maximum these cases are allowed to stretch just above the base web?

Reading Steve Carpenter's book on loading the 45-120, he recommends having a blade micrometer when flirting with max pressure loads to measure just ahead of the rim.

These don't appear to be stretched at the rim, but just above the web about 1/4 inch up from the rim.

they appear to be about .005 larger than the area at the base.

Any ideas?
thanks

[montana_charlie]

I heard one guy give another some advice for handling something like that same problem.
I don't know if will work, but...

Place something on top of your shellholder, so the cartridge is pressed fully into the full-length resizing die. Then drive it out of the die with a punch, through the top of the die.

If it works...let us know. If it doesn't, I may have another idea.

CM

[semtav]

I only have a 45-70 and a 45-120 die. ( worked for everything I need til now)

since the bottom of the case should be the same as the 45-120, it should have worked in there. It is loose in the 45-120 all the way in.

My second option is to leave these as is and use them to compare results.

[montana_charlie]

Use them for comparing results if that is useful to you.
If you want to swage down those fat heads, I would suggest this...

Goto http://www.mcmaster.com
In the search box on the left, type in 8491A174 and hit 'Find'.

The item which comes up is a drill jug bushing much like the one in your stretcher....but, this one is beefier. The cost is $9.24 and McMaster-Carr is pretty decent about their shipping charges.

The ID is .500" and the OD is 1 inch, making it fat enough to set on the open jaws of a vice (for instance) to work on cases.

It is 5/8" long (deep) so the problem area on your case heads will fall within the bore with the case fully inserted...and the wall is thick enough to keep a fat case from bulging the bushing.

One end of the bore is radiused and polished...maybe both.
With a nice coat of lube on the case choose the end which is most nicely rounded and drive the case in with a mallet till the rim is flush with the steel. I would not use a steel hammer.
Turn the assembly over, and drive the case out with a 3/8" diameter rod. A wooden dowel might work, but I wouldn't trust it.
The head should now be reduced to a workable size.

You MIGHT do all of this with the bushing in your stretcher, but you would need to polish a nice radius into the back end of the bore. The ones Rick is using are not radiused on both ends.
You might run the risk of dinging up that bushing...and needing a replacement...but you could get it done if you worked with sufficient care.
If you DID manage to get the rim down flush to the bushing, you could jack the case out with the hydraulics...just as when stretching any other case.

I have done the same job with the bushing in my jig, but I have a couple of loose bushings which I prefer to use for rough stuff. One of them is beefy like the one I referenced at McMaster-Carr.

Now..before you take all of this advice and run with it, let me say this...
I have some Starline cases that were given to me. I don't know how many times they have been fired, and I don't know anything about the chamber they were fired in.
But, they are too fat to 'tap in' to my jig...and they are so hard I have not tried to swage them down.

Whether they are hard because they are old...or because they are Starline...I can't say.
Luckily, they are not part of my 'set' of good cases, so I don't really care if I ever get them to work.

But, because they exist, I believe there are cases that are simply not worth fooling with.
It's up to you to decide if yours are...

CM

[semtav]

My first one drove in ok, but the second scraped some metal off the sides. So I quit. I thought about driving them in from the radius end.

I may get one of those thingamajiggies from Mcmaster next time I order from them.
I've got a big Arbor Press it might work in.
Thanks

[montana_charlie]

My first one drove in ok, but the second scraped some metal off the sides. So I quit.
If they are that close to being tap in-able, I would definitely radius the back end of the bore on the bushing in the jig...and just proceed normally.

I thought about driving them in from the radius end.
That is a practical idea. Might be easiest if you disassemble the plates from the end of the jig, so you can work on a flat surface.
CM