Spanish Mauser

[Beekeeper]

I recently bought one in .308 cal.
Was reading an article in the Fouling Shot about them not being .308 but .308 CTME.

Duh... What is the difference? How do you tell the diference Do I have to find special load data for it?
Looked in my load manual and did not find any .308CTME so now what do I do.

The rifle is in excellent shape (or will be ) once I get all the poly off of it (even the metal painted with it )
Bore slugs .308groove , .300 lan so the bore at least is is good shape.

Need any ifo someone has on the >308.... .308CTME question.

[Tazman1602]

Is that a bolt action or a semi auto Bee? If it's the Cetme semi auto you will probably want to use .308 MILITARY brass in it especially if it has a stamp on it anywhere that reads "CAI" which means it came from Century Arms International. The rifles Century built and put on the market had some violent extractions and I've seen *some* of them pull the case head off of commercial brass.

With no pics and not much more information, I could be talking out my behind............

[Skipper]

Here's some info:

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=165535

[Mk42gunner]

Which Spanish Mauser is it? Spain converted both their M93 and M98 Mausers to 7.62 in a couple of different styles. I know they rebarreled some, (probably the vast majority), into plain 7.62 rifles. After they adopted the CETME/G-3 they converted M93's to the FR-7, and M98's to the FR-8 which mimiced the CETME sights, etc.

There is a lot of discussion on this sight about Spanish Mausers. If you are going to shoot cast in it; I don't think their will be any problems with a rifle in decent shape.


Robert

[Tazman1602]

Hey Bee,

Did some research for you and here's some of what I found. The 7.62 NATO appears to be limited to 50,000psi where as commercial .308 hunting ammo can hit as high as 60K psi. *Technically* you should be ok IF you limit your shooting to non-commercial military rounds.

Being a Mauser guy and NOT being familiar with that action my concern would be: Does it have TWO locking lugs or does it have a THIRD locking "safety" lug? I found at surplus rifle where there were two versions made, one without the safety lug and one with. You can see that article here:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/spanishinquisition/index.asp

Personally I think you should ditch that rifle and sell it to me :kidding:....if it's a two lug design I could solve that problem in a second for less than $50 here:

http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm

Loctite a chamber adapter to it and shoot 7.62 X 39 all day long and cheaply too. Then no worries about pressure buildup and boom. That would be a fun shooter too!

I KNOW *some* large ring actions can take pressure, but with the small ring Mausers I am MUCH more comfortabler shooting lower pressure rounds so as not to hurt myself or the rifle, just my opinion and I know some of these were rebarrelled at the factory blah blah blah. Still don't like the idea.

Anyways there's some ideas for you.

Regards,

Art

[Beekeeper]

Tazman,
It is a 93 bolt action rifle.
It will not close on a field guage.
It is in excellent shape both metal and furniture.(once I got the poly off of it)
Bore is clean and shiny.
I was not worried about it until I read the article in the fouling shot magazine and was going to load for it using 7.62 nato data and keep them about 10% below average.
Am not looking for a 1000 yarder just a good hunter at max 300 yards..

I hate it when I read an article and it makes me think I have a rotten rifle.


Jim

[Kuato]

Keep your loads around 7.62 NATO pressures & you'll be fine...

[Mk42gunner]

Jim,

I'd shoot it. From what I have read the whole "Don't shoot any Mauser other than a 98 thing," came about because the 98 has that big flange to redirect escaping gas that the earlier versions don't have.

There are a lot of actions that don't handle escaping gas as well as the Model 98; but they aren't vilified because there isn't a newer version of them.

While I beleive the Model 93 isn't as strong as a Model 98, as long as you don't try to hotrod it, you should be fine. I shoot my 7x57 M93 Spanish and 6.5x55 Swedish Mausers without worry.

The foregoing are my opinions, and worth what you paid for them.

Robert

[Kuato]

All of the "308" chambered 93s I've seen ( Alot .. I used to work for the company that imported them) have gas ports cut into the receiver to redirect gasses if the case ruptures.. so its a non issue with that..

[swheeler]

You must have worked for SAMCO

[Kuato]

Bingo!

[Larry Gibson]

Another myth is of the 7.62 CETME cartridge. This one generally revolves around the FR7 rifles in 7.62 NATO. If one were to research the Spanish history of the CETME rifle they would find the down loaded 7.62 CETME cartridge was made to facilitate reliable extraction from the original CETMEs that had un-fluted chambers. They were designed for 7.62 NATO but would not reliably extract the NATO cartridge. Once they fluted the chambers the NATO cartridge was used. If one further reads the Spanish manual you will find the CETME, FR7 and the FR8 are all to be used with 7.62 NATO cartridges. They may also fire the 7.62 CETME cartridge.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

In truth the 93/95 have 3 lugs and the 98 4. Everyone forgets the root of the bolt handle.

IMO, and this is just my opinion based on hundreds of rounds put through a '93 Mauser 7x57, if you use common sense you'll be fine. Keeping things in the lower pressure side of loading data, trying to think of the rifle as more of a 300 Savage or 30/40 Krag than a 308 MAGNUM, using the old idea of a moderate weight bullet or boolit at moderate speed will give you complete satisfaction with that rifle. There's really nothing wrong with the 93/95/96 design, the metallurgy changed over the years and the '93/95/96 were produced concurrently with the later '98 designs so depending on which factory produced which rifle the metalurgy thing may be even more confused.

[Multigunner]

The 95 has the bolt handle root and cut out for it to act as a safety lug, but original 1893 Mausers don't.
I found a 1895 style Oviedo marked 7mm in amongst a shipment of 1893 Mausers, the difference was visible.
I think many Spanish Mausers ID'ed as 1893 versions may actually be of the later 1895 model.

Anyway while the CETME cartridge muddies the waters a bit the real reason to watch what ammo you use in any converted Bolt action is that these were intended for the NATO standard Infantry Ball, not Special Ball or MG loads.
NATO Ball in standardized form, to meet the interchangability requirements, is a 144-150 grain bullet at from 2,700+ to 2,800+ FPS and a chamber pressure of around 48,000 CUP or 50-51,000 PSI.
Special Ball generates 52,000 CUP but has a acceptable max deviation of 57,000 CUP.
In US military sources M80 Ball has its pressures expressed in both CUP and in PSI but Special Ball is expressed only in CUP which leads to confusion.

The 7.62/.308 having a short neck and limited OAL leads to bullets heavier than 150 grains intruding into the powder space, so when heavier bullets are used pressures rise more than one would normally expect.
Winchester even marketed a special semi balloonhead case for heavy bullet long range match loads, to compensate for reduction of powder space due to the longer bullets intruding into the powder space.

A 1898 action produced after WW1 should be strong enough for any 7.62NATO cartridge suited to modern rifles, the 8mm generates aprox the same pressures.
Still I'd want to keep pressures below that of the maximum acceptable pressures for the .308 which is 62,000 PSI according to SAAMI regulations.
WW2 Mausers still show up with significant setback in the seats due to the German Practice of issuing five round clips of Long range heavy ball MG loads to their troops to use if pinned down by allied armored cars.
The rifles were plenty strong enough to hold up to a few rounds but set back did occasionally occur.
The 1893 or 1895 actions are theoretically as strong as a 98 if made from the same steels, but theres no garantee, plus the rifles were mostly very old when first converted and are much older now.

Another thing to consider is the often crappy condition of 7.62 NATO surplus these days. Due to increased military readiness every round of good quality 7.62 NATO can be sold to government end users at a better profit than individual shooters can generate. So shooter will be getting the muddy end of a short stick when it comes to 7.62 or 5.56 for years to come.

PS
Avoid any 7.62 NATO Ball that is loaded with flat square flake powder. Thats a older European powder , when it breaks down with age fumes from it will eat right through the cases and rust any steel object nearby.
I have had personal experiance with this years ago. The headstamp was a three letter starting with F , perhaps FNM or FMP. It may be Portugese.
I may still have one of the cases here, if so I'll check the headstamp and date.

[Tazman1602]

Jim,

The guys here have given you some good information, that rifle is ANYTHING but junk so don't think like that. Just keep pressures within reason and you'll be fine. I just threw those ideas about the chamber adapter out there *in case* you were interested.

Like one of the guys said just don't treat it like a .308 magnum.

Larry -- that was some GREAT information on that rifle THANKS for the read!

Art

[Gerry N.]

I had one of the little Guardia Civil M1916's for several years. I was a bit concerned about firing full power civilian .308 Win. in it so being a bit of a candy ass, I simply used it for cast loads only. My standard load was 1cc Unique under a Lee C309-130R cast of Wheelweight metal. I tumble lubed with Lee Mule Snot and shot 'em unsized. That little rifle loved that load and would print it into about 2"-2 1/2" at 50 yards. I cheated and put a Williams 5D receiver sight and filed the front barleycorn to a modified square (ish) blade. It was my beater rifle and lived under the mattress in my pickup camper for years until it's place was usurped by a Chilean M1912/61 in 7.62 Nato at which time I gave it to a nephew with 400 rounds of cast loads and firm instructions to see me when he needs more ammo.

I did shoot some commercial and a few rounds of milsurp out of it. The ergonomics of the stock seemed to be for a badly malnourished midget and was very unpleasant to shoot with any but cast boolit loads.

Several Coast Blacktail deer here in W. Wash. can attest to the lethality of the Lee 130 gr. bullet when applied at moderate range. I have brow bea..........suggested to my nephew that he limit his shots to 100 yards or less. With that load he has an effective de facto bolt action .30-30.

Your mileage, as always, may vary.

Gerry N.

[JIMinPHX]

I keep reading where the Spanish Mausers are not strong enough to handle the .308 Win. The only small ring Mousers that are supposed to get that caliber are the Turks, since they are actually a large ring action with small ring barrel threads. The guys that sell the .308 barrels with small ring threads tell you not to put them on actual small ring actions like the Spanish Mausers. I have no experience with that myself. That's just what I've read.

[Bret4207]

I keep reading those same warnings Jim, and I also read where handloading any thing is for fool hardy types, that cast will lead and wear out your barrel and that Bill Clinton never told a lie. Once you get beyond the "warnings to the truly stupid and ignorant" part, I feel a Spanish or most any Mauser in good repair can be used with sane loads suitable for it's design. The problem is that too many people start with the "max load" in the latest powder company book, or worse the Speer #8, and never give it a thought.

[edsmith]

nothing candy ass about not wanting to add extra holes to your head.

[Bret4207]

True enough Ed, but then I never said anything about anyone being a chicken and I darn sure didn't have to resort to foul language to do it.

[223tenx]

But--you can't seem to find any first hand knowledge of one coming apart. Mine shoots like the proverbial tack driver with a 150gr rn and midrange BL-C-2 jacket loads. Also tried a few patched loads and they were promissing.

[Multigunner]

Unfortunately if a milsurp rifle has a breech blow out theres very seldom any information gathered or released, theres almost never any actual investigation unless someone dies or a bystander is injured.
I once ran across a fellow who claimed there had never been a recorded incident of a Lee Enfield action failing when using factory ammo. It took awhile but I dug up dozens of recorded cases on rifle ranges in Canada pre WW1. One thing about the source, an investigation in the Canadian House of Commons , which tells it all was the question of whether any of those incidents had been reported in the news papers, the reply was no, but there may be tomorrow.
An old rifle blowing up is just not newsworthy, until a well known figure is killed such as happened a few years back in an accident involving a Lee straightpull rifle.
Even then theres been no reliable information on that accident and no report released on the exact cause.

It would be nice if someone put in the effort to track down incidents of action failures the way Hatcher did with the Low Number Springfield failures, but its just not going to happen.

Now that said, if a old rifle is in excellent condition, and used only with ammunition for which it has been proofed, its unlikely to have a blow out.
But since the 7.62x51 has evolved over the decades since its first incarnation it would be prudent to be sure of the pressure levels of any ammo you put through it.

There were a few incidents of failures of Spanish Mausers which were traced to ammunition that generated pressures close to proof test pressure. Not much info on these was available then and nothing came to light since.

I would not assume that rifles intended for late fifties-early sixties Infantry Ball would also handle the hottest loads available today.
Some long range match loads (Winchester Palma) even used a semi balloon head case , entirely unsuited to a loose military chamber even with the standard pressures.

PS
A short way down this thread you'll find a few photos of a blown up Spanish Mauser
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=20039&highlight=M1916

As usual no useful information on the exact cause of the blow up.

[Bret4207]

Personally, I don't see the need to stress any gun, modern or ancient. When you get up in the red zone you often only gain a few FPS for a few hundred more PSI. Why? What will a bullet going 110 fps faster at the cost of another 2500 PSI get you? Stress, recoil, reduced barrel/brass life. Truth is there aren't too many cases where a couple hundred FPS will make of break the game.

I tend to follow the conservative approach in all things and it never fails.

[roverboy]

I'm new here. Hello everybody. I've got a 1916 Spanish that I've had since '94 and I've shot it a lot and killed about 12 deer with. I have loaded some loads up to about 2800 fps but have loaded mostly in the .300 Savage level. Its a good rifle better than most people will give them credit for.

[Multigunner]

For those who aren't into handloading, or want to fire factory ammo and reload those cases, there are low intensity .308 loads made by Remington and Federal.
These are loaded to a little more than .30-30 power levels, and a 2A owner told me he found they solved his problem of cases stretching too far to be reloadable.
His rifle was a bit on the loose side.

The same low intensity rounds should be a good alternative for any of the mauser or No.4 conversions as well.
The British NRA has recently issued warnings about possible damage to converted No.4 rifles from modern heavier bullet .308 or 7.62 loads using bullets heavier than 144 grains.

PS
While most of the converted Spanish Mausers came to the US in good condition, the first time I ran across these the only one the store had left after a sale looked perfect on the outside.
I had just started to fill out the paperwork when I noticed a line of rust on either side of the exposed portion of barrel.
Loosening the action from the stock I found that the underside of the barrel and receiver was terribly rusted out. Could be it was put away wet after exposure to salt water.
Some salt cured wood has caused similar rusting of FN manufactured Browning sporting rifles in the past. So it could have been bad wood.