Swiss K31: Check new brass length after its first firing & resizing

[Linstrum]

My latest rifle is a Swiss K31 and I have only run 20 rounds through it so far. I usually reload brass in 20-round lots, so when I fired the 20th round it was time to reload for my K31. I had originally started out with new brass and I checked it for length before loading the first cartridge, and they were all right around 2.185" where they were supposed to be. I have not had any of my brass "grow" much during its life, on the average I probably trim the brass after maybe the fourth or fifth reloading and every three of four reloadings after that until I get an incipient head separation and have to relegate those cartridges for making kids' pocket whistles and powder dippers. This lulled me into getting slack in checking my used brass length and I had a pretty rude awakening when I tried to chamber one of the twenty cartridges I had just finished reloading. They were all once-fired cartridges that I had run through my 7.5x55 Swiss sizing die and then reloaded without first checking case length. Why? Because in the forty-something years of reloading I have never had to trim after the first firing! I guess I beat the odds on that one by a long shot, for sure. If I owned a British .303 that might have been a different story, but I don't have a .303. At first I thought that I didn't have the bullet inserted deeply enough in the neck since the Swiss K31 rifles do not have any free bore and projectile ogive interference is a problem with the K31 rifle. That is what I thought my problem was when I couldn't get the bolt to close, but my "little red warning light" in the back of my mind started to flash brightly since most bolts have enough camming action to shove the projectile further into the neck or into the rifling, or both. I knew beforehand that brute force is NEVER the answer and I was prepared to have the bullet get stuck in the bore, but that didn't happen. On a hunch I got out my dial calipers and checked the case length and found that it had grown by a whopping 0.025". I checked them all and every one of them was now at 2.210". Man! Not taking a minute to check case length after re-sizing just cost me about two hours work in having to pull down 20 cartridges in order to trim the brass. Why so long since pulling bullets is not a big deal? The insides of my brass are sticky from case lube inside the necks and the little bit of powder stuck inside the case will force me to disassemble, trim, and then reassemble the cartridge with the same charge of powder that came out of it, otherwise I won't know how much powder is inside each cartridge and I might have a dangerous overload in one of them, so I will have to do each one individually instead of in a much faster assembly line fashion.

The morals of the story are: 1 - If you have a Swiss K31 check your brass after the first resizing like you would for a British Lee Enfield. 2 - Just because you haven't had something happen in forty-something years doesn't mean it won't happen eventually!


rl705

[Calamity Jake]

"On a hunch I got out my dial calipers and checked the case length and found that it had grown by a whopping 0.025"

If the cases had grown that much at firing then you would see signs of comming head seperation.
I think the growth came from pulling the case back over the expander ball after sizing
or your dies are not designed for the K31 chamber as Redding is the only company that makes
a true K31 sizer the others are for the K11.
Also if the expander ball is pulling the neck forward then it is also changing the shoulder angle. If your size die is correct then make sure it pushes the shoulder back a small amount.
Your 40+ years of reloading has my 30+ beat but that doesn't stop some thing from slipping
up on us.

My 2 K31's require me to full length size cases to insure good function.

[beemer]

Check the dia. of the case at the shoulder of an unfired case and one fired in your rifle. The difference of an unfired GP11 and a case fired in my rifle is close to 20 thousands of an inch. You didn't mention the brand of dies but it can make a difference. When the case is fired the brass stretches out to fit the large shoulder, when sized back to fit a 1911 the brass has to go somewhere and it flows forward. All cases grow some but heavy sizing amplifies the problem.

I have a set of dies designed for the 1911 and a set Redding dies. The Redding dies work the brass, especially the body of the case very little. There has been a lot of discussion about the dies but I found what works for me.

I hope you enjoy your new rifle, they are a little different but that's what make them fun.

Dave

[mike in co]

i'll second that...WHAT BRAND OF DIES ???

[462]

I use Lee's collet neck sizer die and have never had a case grow. I have two k-31's and keep the brass segregated.

[Bob S]

After reading this post, I checked 20 cases before loading/firing and after firing and FL resizing in ancient CH dies, the cases grew an average of 0.002". Cases were reformed 284's and this lot of cases had been reloaded 5 times prior to this.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[3006guns]

I had a similar occurance with my K31.......on the first loading! The brass was from Grafs and I gleefully assembled a number of rounds, only to find the bolt wouldn't go fully into battery. New cases are supposed to be already sized.....right? Well, they WERE right. It was the infamous "non throat" of the Swiss rifle, which I was unaware of at that time. I seated the j-words just a touch deeper and no more problems.

Point is, from now on I will never assume (there's that word again) anything and full length resize and check for functioning before proceeding to load powder, primer and projectile.

Like the poster.....40 years in this hobby and you still don't "know it all"!

[mike in co]

inquiring minds want to know....who's dies ????


i'm betting not redding........


mike in co

[Linstrum]

Hi, guys, thanks for the input, it is always appreciated!

Ricochet and I have been comparing notes about Swiss rifles, and what he related to me is pretty much what was said here. The 1931 chamber is a bit different from the chamber used in the 1911, and the K31 chamber was larger but held to tighter manufacturing tolerances.

As soon as I had trouble I made darn sure that the die set I was using was for the 7.5x55 Swiss cartridge since it took way more force to run the cartridge in than what I'm used to, and I had to resort to using good old sticky, gooey lanolin as the case lube. No, the 7.5x55 Swiss dies are not Redding. I got the Lee 7.5x55 Swiss dies off the shelf the day I picked up my K31. This is the first time I used the sizing die in the set since the sizing die was not required for loading the first batch of ammo using new Prvi brass like Ricochet has been using for his K31. That I had trouble with the dies sizing far more than was necessary came as a nasty surprise since I normally get way, way more than two reloads per cartridge case using Lee dies in my other milsurps. From my past experience, I had no second thoughts about using Lee dies for the Swiss K31 since up until now they haven't worked the brass to death in any of my other rifles. I realize that cartridge life is not a simple thing based solely on the reloading dies used, it is from a combination of several factors not all completely related to the dies; how closely the rifle chamber is cut to specifications plus how closely the sizing die is cut to the sizing die specifications, and then on top those, how much greater the rifle chamber specifications are from the sizing die specifications. When all three actual sizes are very close, that minimizes working the brass and is what gives the greatest cartridge life (IF the many other factors involved with cartridge life are ignored). In this case, they are very far apart and I need to find what manufacturer makes dies that are the closest in size to the chamber in my particular K31. Beyond making a special die based on my rifle's fired cartridges, as has been so kindly pointed out by several of you, Redding makes what I need to get. Thanks!


rl706

[mike in co]

thanks linstrum for the reply.
glad you found the issue and how to resolve the issue.
my use for the redding k31 die is based on the use of norma brass...its just too expensive to over work it.
this is the first issue i have seen on case oal being an issue.

thanks
mike

[Bob S]

I've found Norma brass to be way too soft, and not just in 7.5. Prvi Partizan is only marginally better. Even the much-maligned FNM Lot no. 9001 brass is more durable. After having stretching problems with Norma 7.5 very early in my "Swiss career" (1999), I use my Norma 7.5 brass only for wimpy cast loads in Gew 1889's now, and use reformed 284 for all else. They are virtually indestructable. Of course, YMMV.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Linstrum]

I'll be darned, Norma has a fairly good reputation even though that stuff sells for three or four times what it is actually worth. That stuff in 7.62x54R was selling for $1.25 each EMPTY just a few years ago when they were the only ones in the world making Boxer-primed cases in that size. Sellier & Bellot has the absolute crappiest brass I have ever found, though, they do not use the tried-and-true correct alloy of 70% copper 30% zinc. Their brass is very light colored because they use an alloy that is probably 60% copper 40% zinc, or maybe even 50/50 in order to cut costs. I also get shoulder splits on the first firing from their die punch operator overlapping punchings (crescent-shaped cartridge drawing blanks where the missing brass makes a seam right at the shoulder and up into the neck in the finished cartridge) to save even more money outlay on material used, besides using a low-cost inferior alloy. Just plain CHEAP is what that crappy stuff is. The particular batch of Prvi Partizan brass I just got appears to be excellent stuff, I haven't noticed any softness issues with the particular lot I have.

Brass work hardens very quickly, but the operative word here is WORK and it takes getting stretched and then put back into shape a few times in order to harden it up quickly, and that is also what destroys it. The little bit of elasticity that UN-RESIZED brass exhibits when repeatedly fired in the same chamber will eventually harden it up without destroying it quickly, but the limits that must be observed to do that are quite tight. I have one particular Nazi-Germany made, 1940 dated, Berdan-converted-to-Boxer 7.62x53R Finnish (same as the 7.62x54R Russian) cartridge I full-house reloaded 52 times and it got darned hard! The primer pocket gave out and the neck began to get a crack in it, though, so there is a limit on how many times brass can be reloaded and fired in the same chamber. If I had annealed the neck and peened the primer pocket back into to shape I might have been able to get maybe 60 or 70 reloadings from it. That's a bunch!


rl711

[rvpilot76]

Does anyone know if Redding will cut a K31 body die? I've got the Lee collet die set, but I need a body die for the initial sizing of my 284 brass.

Kevin

[Linstrum]

Hi, rvpilot76, I don't think the right folks will see your question here. I can't answer the question since I'm kinda in your shoes, too.

Try starting a new thread over on the Guns & Shooting section, more people will see it there. Good Luck!


rl721

[madsenshooter]

CH4D makes a K31 set, and will sell you the sizing die alone. At, $51 I believe, it isn't cheap, but better than buying a whole set when you already have a seater. Let Dave know you're planning on making your cases from .284 and it'll probably come with a tapered expander ball.

[JSH]

As to dies for the K31. I have been using a set of 30x284 dies for a while now with no ill effects.
I was told by more than a few well meaning individuals that it wouldn't work. Well I went ahead and tried them. All has been well. I suspect the ones who warned me against them just lloked at dimensions on paper rather than hands on experiance.
jeff

[mike in co]

Does anyone know if Redding will cut a K31 body die? I've got the Lee collet die set, but I need a body die for the initial sizing of my 284 brass.

Kevin

you dont need a body die for that...neck up and shoot.....

[jack19512]

I suspect the ones who warned me against them just lloked at dimensions on paper rather than hands on experiance.







I have thought that myself about a lot of things. Many times I have wondered if the person that says this or that won't work has actually tried it themselves. I could name several topics right off but it would just end up in a :takinWiz: contest and eventual thread locked.

[Bob S]

As to dies for the K31. I have been using a set of 30x284 dies for a while now with no ill effects.
I was told by more than a few well meaning individuals that it wouldn't work. Well I went ahead and tried them. All has been well. I suspect the ones who warned me against them just lloked at dimensions on paper rather than hands on experiance.
jeff

Jeff,

I may have been one of the "well-meaning individuals" who told you it won't work. But I actually own a Winchester Model 70 chambered in 30-284; and in the real 3-D world, I can tell you that none of my 6 K31's, 2 K11's 2 96/11's and 2 1911 long rifles will chamber a 30-284 case because the headspace datum is about .015"-.020" longer than the 7.5 chamber. There is obviously less body taper on the 30-284, but the K31 chamber might tolerate that if it were not for the difference in headspace; the 1911 chambers would not. I have not tried to chamber a 30-284 case in either of the 1889's, or the Furter-Olten.

If I may ask, has your carbine ever been checked with 7.5 headspace gauges, or 284 gauges (30-284 and 284 use the same gauges)? What brand are your 30-284 dies, and were they purchased new?

K31's that have been rechambered to 30-284 do exist: see the 10th post in Buckshot's thread. The French could not own the K31 (or any milsurp, I think) in any military chambering; the quick fix to skirt that law was to rechamber them in the 30-284 commercial "wildcat". I saw one of these "French" K31's on this side of the pond many years ago, before K31's were commonplace, but I was not interested enough at that time to note if the carbine was marked to indicate the rechambering.

I suspect that if a guy faced .015-.020 off the base of a 30-284 die (or the shell holder) to get the correct headspace, it may work with a 7.5 K31 ... the result would be similar to the Redding "special K31" dies. I also suspect, but have not tried it (and have no motivation to do so), that a 7.5 x 55 cartridge could be fired in a 30-284 chamber without major discombobulation, if the extractor held the cartridge to the bolt well enough to get a good firing pin strike, or the bullets were jammed into the lands to hold the base of the cartridge against the bolt face at ignition.

If it's working for you, that's great ... but 30-284 will not chamber in any of my 7.5x55 chambers, and "neck up and shoot" 284's doesn't work in my rifles, either. And that's not based on just paper.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[mike in co]

I have thought that myself about a lot of things. Many times I have wondered if the person that says this or that won't work has actually tried it themselves. I could name several topics right off but it would just end up in a :takinWiz: contest and eventual thread locked.


for the record i BOUGHT lyman, rcbs, lee and redding dies for the 7.5x55....and only the redding is marked k31, all others are marked 7.5x55.......so yes when i talk about the dies,,,i do know what i am talking about...i returned all but the redding...and have since bought the lee collet set. still use the redding only for brass sizing.

mike in co

[jack19512]

For the record I have the Lee dies and use the .284 brass and I have not experienced any trouble with either. As far as the brass is concerned I have not lost one piece of brass yet because of using the Lee dies and have lost count of how many re-loadings the .284 brass has on them.

[madsenshooter]

the only company that marks their dies K31. Since seeing is believing, here's the CH version. But then, you didn't mention them as one you'd bought. I guess it boils down to whatever each feels is right for them. I sized one case that had been fired in K31 in a regular 7.5x55 die, that was all I needed to prompt me to purchase the K31 set. I still have the regular set should I ever get an older model of the Swiss rifle, they're CH too, when they were still in CA.

[mike in co]

For the record I have the Lee dies and use the .284 brass and I have not experienced any trouble with either. As far as the brass is concerned I have not lost one piece of brass yet because of using the Lee dies and have lost count of how many re-loadings the .284 brass has on them.


jack,
to keep things in context...my concern is based on the fact that some of my brass is NORMA(read that as not cheap), and the desire to get keep it in use as long as practical.

if i was only shooting 284 brass( read as not expensive) this might have never been an issue.

the pics in the above post clearly show that at least two die makers understand there is a DIFFERENCE in the two chambers.

mike in co

[alamogunr]

I have 2 sets of 7.5X55 dies. One is Lee and the other is RCBS. The second came as part of a buy of several used sets. I haven't been too observant of dimensions but I haven't reloaded any of my brass more than once so far. I have read every post in this thread but still have some questions:

1. When a K-31 size die is referred to are you talking about a full length size die
or neck sizer? If neck sizer, would I have to segregate brass from each of
my two K-31's or is there a way to tell if the chambers are similar enough
that this is not necessary?

2. Does Redding sell the sizer only or do I have to buy a set?

3. All my brass is either Prvi or Hornady. Not reformed .284. I get the
impression that reformed .284 is better. Yes/No?
Is the difference worth buying new .284 and necking up?

Sorry to be so dense, but this K-31 stuff confuses me.

John
W.TN

[VintageRifle]

I am using a Lee collet die for the K31 I shoot the most. I have gone past 10 reloads on brass (prvi) and I am still reloading it. I do not use full power charges much which might be helping with brass life.

I did have a K31 that let me partial neck size with the Lee full length sizing die. Gave that one away and haven't found a K31 again that I can do that will.

Might look into the CH or RCBS dies one of these days.

[spqrzilla]

I have not noticed any excessive lengthening of cases in my K31, using Lee 7.5x55 dies. I've been using Winchester .284 Win brass reformed to 7.5x55 as well as Prvi Partisan brass.

[mike in co]

i have 2 sets of 7.5x55 dies. One is lee and the other is rcbs. The second came as part of a buy of several used sets. I haven't been too observant of dimensions but i haven't reloaded any of my brass more than once so far. I have read every post in this thread but still have some questions:

1. When a k-31 size die is referred to are you talking about a full length size die
or neck sizer? If neck sizer, would i have to segregate brass from each of
my two k-31's or is there a way to tell if the chambers are similar enough
that this is not necessary?

Answer: K31 is a different chamber, and as such has a different full lenght sizer die, which when backed out a turn or so does a great neck sizing.

2. Does redding sell the sizer only or do i have to buy a set?

Answer:yes it is available alone...try midway for a better price.

3. All my brass is either prvi or hornady. Not reformed .284. I get the
impression that reformed .284 is better. Yes/no?
Is the difference worth buying new .284 and necking up?
Answer:no big deal in those three..

Sorry to be so dense, but this k-31 stuff confuses me.

John
w.tn


mike in co

[mike in co]

I have not noticed any excessive lengthening of cases in my K31, using Lee 7.5x55 dies. I've been using Winchester .284 Win brass reformed to 7.5x55 as well as Prvi Partisan brass.

WHAT KIND OF LOADS ARE YOU SHOOTING ?

again if one goes back to my original posts, i was shooting 135 jacketed at 2900 fps or so,,,,and trying to keep my normal brass in service.

i would not expect lots of growth with lite cast boolit loads.


mike in co

[blackhorse11arc@yahoo.com]

I have 2 1911's and 2 k31 and have experienced non of these problems, lucky I guess. I have Lee dies in this cal. and load them like any other cal. I have found that new Graf brass needs to be sized and trimmed before loading. OAL of their brass is not uniform at all. Too long and wouldn't chamber.. Norma is the best brass,but it's so darn expensive.
Good Luck,
Steve

[madsenshooter]

I have 2 sets of 7.5X55 dies. One is Lee and the other is RCBS. The second came as part of a buy of several used sets. I haven't been too observant of dimensions but I haven't reloaded any of my brass more than once so far. I have read every post in this thread but still have some questions:

1. When a K-31 size die is referred to are you talking about a full length size die
or neck sizer? If neck sizer, would I have to segregate brass from each of
my two K-31's or is there a way to tell if the chambers are similar enough
that this is not necessary?

2. Does Redding sell the sizer only or do I have to buy a set?

3. All my brass is either Prvi or Hornady. Not reformed .284. I get the
impression that reformed .284 is better. Yes/No?
Is the difference worth buying new .284 and necking up?

Sorry to be so dense, but this K-31 stuff confuses me.

John
W.TN

1. The CH die is a full length sizer, one that sizes less that the regular 7.5x55 die, A chamber cast would tell you if your chambers are similiar enough that segregation wouldn't be necessary. My guess would be that you wouldn't have to, the Swiss stuck to some close tolerances.

2. Can't answer that, call or ask, I know CH will sell the sizer only.

3. I've no experience with the .284 brass, so can't answer this one. My GRAFS headstamped brass (made by PRVI,) works fine. I would think your Hornady brass would be top notch.

[spqrzilla]

WHAT KIND OF LOADS ARE YOU SHOOTING ?

again if one goes back to my original posts, i was shooting 135 jacketed at 2900 fps or so,,,,and trying to keep my normal brass in service.

i would not expect lots of growth with lite cast boolit loads.


mike in co

Full power loads using 168 grain Hornady A-Max bullets largely.

[jack19512]

jack,
to keep things in context...my concern is based on the fact that some of my brass is NORMA(read that as not cheap), and the desire to get keep it in use as long as practical.

if i was only shooting 284 brass( read as not expensive) this might have never been an issue.

the pics in the above post clearly show that at least two die makers understand there is a DIFFERENCE in the two chambers.

mike in co





I totally agree that the Redding dies or any other possible dies that are made specifically for the K31 are best. I just don't want someone totally new to reloading for the K31 to think or to be led to believe that the Redding dies or equivalent are a must have.

I reload and cast for more calibers than I had planned on now and like a lot of people I am not made of money so sometimes the more expensive equipment has to take a back seat to less expensive equipment as long as this equipment will do the job to my satisfaction.

As stated already I use the Lee dies and .284 brass(can't afford the Norma) and I have had none of the problems some others seem to have had. I am quite satisfied with my K31 reloads and accuracy considering no longer than I have been doing this.

My own belief is if you want the very best and can afford it than by all means get the Redding dies but do not be fooled into believing you cannot get some very satisfactory results using the Lee dies. I have in the past posted groups shot from my K31 and don't care to post them again for anyone interested. I am honestly curious as to what your Redding dies do better and to what extent they do this better than the Lee dies I use. You never know, you may be able to convince me I need the Redding dies. :)

[mike in co]

I am honestly curious as to what your Redding dies do better and to what extent they do this better than the Lee dies I use. You never know, you may be able to convince me I need the Redding dies. :)


i tried, lyman, rcbs, and lee.....none of these 7.5x55 swiss dies allowed me to neck size my brass.......each and every one of those sized aprox half of the body while trying to size aprox 1/2 of the neck. no other rifle caliber that i neck size for has this issue.

the redding k31 die allows me to neck size my brass aprox 2/3 of the neck....without resizing the body.

that is what i wanted...plain and simple. i see no need to work the brass more than is necessary to chamber....

thats alll

mike in co

[giorgio]

In Italy we find costly ,but superb Norma brass,Cheaper,but presently unavailable portuguese brass,and even primed GI swiss brass.It was used once,being berdan primed by a friend in a Swiss sturmgewehr 56,a brass ruining rifle.
I have Lee dies ,Full lenght and collet sizer,use cast bullets and prudent loads of Vihtavuori 135 vith jacketed bullets.
Never had any problem with such components.

[bkbville]

I've got 20 PRVI cases that have each been shot 5 times; reloaded with the LEE 7.5 Swiss FL dies. I did trim them, but only after they were shot 5 times, and didn't find it excessive at all. (some of the batches were boolits, others were FMJ)

I also converted a dozen GP11 brass to take boxer primers - no problems with them using the LEE dies either.

I admire the loyalty of the Redding for K31 advocates, but almost nothing shoots as well in a K31 as GP-11, and that chambers just fine in K11's.

I just haven't seen a compelling reason to shelve the Lee dies. If I want or need that level of chamber fit, fire them once and neck size from then on.

[mike in co]

If I want or need that level of chamber fit, fire them once and neck size from then on.


the problem is...YOU CANNOT NECK SIZE FOR A K31 WITH A LEE 7.5X55 FL DIE....the die hits the body long before you get 1/2 of the neck done.

oh welllllll

mike in co

[alamogunr]

Quote from Mike's answer to my earlier question:
"Answer: K31 is a different chamber, and as such has a different full lenght sizer die, which when backed out a turn or so does a great neck sizing."

Mike, Could this be causing some confusion about full length resizing. I find that Redding has both full length K-31 size dies and neck size only K-31 size dies, as well as a set that includes both size dies.
http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=2&tabId=1&categoryId=8306&categoryString=9315***731***702***8344***

I assume that you were referring to the Redding full length size die in your 1st answer but can I assume a K-31, as opposed to a 7.5X55, full length size die will resize more than half or all of the neck before contacting the body of the case?

I hope I have stated this correctly. I have rewritten this post several times to try to state my question clearly.

I am probably going to order the Redding K-31 neck size die since I have the other two die sets which should do fine if I acquire a 1911 Schmidt Rubin.

John
W.TN

[mike in co]

Quote from Mike's answer to my earlier question:
"Answer: K31 is a different chamber, and as such has a different full lenght sizer die, which when backed out a turn or so does a great neck sizing."

Mike, Could this be causing some confusion about full length resizing. I find that Redding has both full length K-31 size dies and neck size only K-31 size dies, as well as a set that includes both size dies.
http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=2&tabId=1&categoryId=8306&categoryString=9315***731***702***8344***

I assume that you were referring to the Redding full length size die in your 1st answer but can I assume a K-31, as opposed to a 7.5X55, full length size die will resize more than half or all of the neck before contacting the body of the case?

I hope I have stated this correctly. I have rewritten this post several times to try to state my question clearly.

I am probably going to order the Redding K-31 neck size die since I have the other two die sets which should do fine if I acquire a 1911 Schmidt Rubin.

John
W.TN

you can NECK size k31 brass with REDDING K31 FULL LENGTH sizing die.........you cannot neck size k31 brass with a full length 7.5x55 die from rcbs, lyman or lee.

yes i think you said it correctly, but why buy the neck die.....unless you have some unique requirement to size the entire neck.......2/3 is typically enough, which the fl k31 die will do(like any other fl die typically will do...308, 30'06 etc).


mike in co

[bkbville]

Mike in CO -

I'm not following you... or I'm mis-understanding the thread.

In page 1 someone blames the brass length expansion on not using the Redding dies. I don't think its a valid "solution" to the problem.

[in a dozen or so K31 threads someone says that you have to use the Redding or the world will end. I love Redding dies, but this is just hog-wash. I trace it back to a surplusrifle.com article a few years ago. So what I'm saying is that if you want to match your chamber you would fireform and necksize; otherwise any of the Lee or RCBS FL dies would do the job - giving you something in the parmeters of GP11 - and fit either model.]

On the tangent - I can see it useful to be able to neck size with the Redding FL die, though you could buy the Lee FL and neck for half the cost of the Redding FL - and simply dial the neck sizer out to get your 2/3rds.) Actually - if I necksize my swiss, I'll use my generic Hornady 30 cal neck sizer - I've had great luck with that.

[35 Whelen]

Geez this is a confusing thread!! Here are my experiences:

I have two sets of dies: A Lee collet neck sizer and seater, and an RCBS FL die and seater. I size with the Lee collet and seat with the RCBS. Tomorrow will mark the 1 year anniversary of my delving into High Power shooting which I have shot solely with a K-31. I shoot a very light load and of the 90 cases I haved used for competition over the last 12 months, I have lost exactly two cases, both of them to split necks. I have yet to trim a single case since the initial trimming and have yet to FL size any of the cases.
My normal procedure with new brass is to first trim all the brass to the same length. I never, ever use new brass without first trimming it. Next I load it so that whatever bullet I'm using is firmly into the rifling when the round is chambered. That way after the first firing, that brass all fits that chamber perfectly. When it becomes does become necessary to FL size, such as when I fire heavy loads with jacketed bullets, I use a method described in Handloader Magazine by John Barsness. Here is an excerpt of that article from an internet site:

"....In making straight ammo, there are better tools and methods than the average neck-sizing die. All the full-length dies I've tried in the past decade size cases straight, but more often than not, the expander ball pulls the neck crooked. Sometimes this is because the "ball" (actually a cylinder of some sort) is mounted crooked on the decapping pin. Expander-ball/decapping-pin straightness can be measured with a concentricity gauge, and corrected with the judicious use of pliers.

Sometimes, however, even a straight expander ball pulls necks crooked. The only solution I've found is to unscrew the expander, fully size the case, then screw the expander assembly back in the die and "push" it into the neck of the sized case. For some reason, this almost always results in straighter necks."

We've all seen necks "pulled" longer when the expander ball exits the neck. The above described method all but eliminates this. The article in its entirety can be found in one of the 2006 (IIRC) issues of Handloader and is one of the best article on handloading I've ever read and goes into much kore detail than the above excerpt.

35W

[mike in co]

Mike in CO -

On the tangent - I can see it useful to be able to neck size with the Redding FL die, though you could buy the Lee FL and neck for half the cost of the Redding FL - and simply dial the neck sizer out to get your 2/3rds.) Actually - if I necksize my swiss, I'll use my generic Hornady 30 cal neck sizer - I've had great luck with that.

this is not from someone elses info...this is my personal work....four k31's and purchasing all four sets of dies.......

you cannot dial back a lee(lymann, or rcbs) 7.5x55 die and NECK SIZE.....it will not work...it will size the body of the case long before you get the neck 1/2 sized.

the hornady neck size should work ok.


mike in co

[mike in co]

Geez this is a confusing thread!! Here are my experiences:

I have two sets of dies: A Lee collet neck sizer and seater, and an RCBS FL die and seater. I size with the Lee collet and seat with the RCBS. Tomorrow will mark the 1 year anniversary of my delving into High Power shooting which I have shot solely with a K-31. I shoot a very light load and of the 90 cases I haved used for competition over the last 12 months, I have lost exactly two cases, both of them to split necks. I have yet to trim a single case since the initial trimming and have yet to FL size any of the cases.
My normal procedure with new brass is to first trim all the brass to the same length. I never, ever use new brass without first trimming it. Next I load it so that whatever bullet I'm using is firmly into the rifling when the round is chambered. That way after the first firing, that brass all fits that chamber perfectly. When it becomes does become necessary to FL size, such as when I fire heavy loads with jacketed bullets, I use a method described in Handloader Magazine by John Barsness. Here is an excerpt of that article from an internet site:

"....In making straight ammo, there are better tools and methods than the average neck-sizing die. All the full-length dies I've tried in the past decade size cases straight, but more often than not, the expander ball pulls the neck crooked. Sometimes this is because the "ball" (actually a cylinder of some sort) is mounted crooked on the decapping pin. Expander-ball/decapping-pin straightness can be measured with a concentricity gauge, and corrected with the judicious use of pliers.

Sometimes, however, even a straight expander ball pulls necks crooked. The only solution I've found is to unscrew the expander, fully size the case, then screw the expander assembly back in the die and "push" it into the neck of the sized case. For some reason, this almost always results in straighter necks."

We've all seen necks "pulled" longer when the expander ball exits the neck. The above described method all but eliminates this. The article in its entirety can be found in one of the 2006 (IIRC) issues of Handloader and is one of the best article on handloading I've ever read and goes into much kore detail than the above excerpt.

35W


yep no issues with this process.....the collet neck die is not a fl sizer, so no issue there.
i would suggest that since you are having good luck the way you do things, that when you get to the point of needing to push the shoulder back, you use a k31 die and not a 7.5x55 die. yes both will work, but under sizing with a 7.5x55 is counter productive to keeping the brass in use as long as possible. consider annealing to minimize/eliminate the neck splits.

and yes i do not PULL buttons thru any of my brass.....

mike in co

[Storydude]

I cannot see the big problem in tossing a piece of brass(which is designed to be a disposable commodity) when the situation warrants.

I see reloaders trying for save that one piece of brass for 200 firings. I look at tossing brass as a part of reloading. Sure, you might save a piece for another 2-3 loadings, but at what cost? More work? more stress? worrying about if it'll chamber?

Just because a person can get 3 more loadings from a piece of brass, is that worth getting all bent out of shape over?

[mike in co]

I cannot see the big problem in tossing a piece of brass(which is designed to be a disposable commodity) when the situation warrants.

I see reloaders trying for save that one piece of brass for 200 firings. I look at tossing brass as a part of reloading. Sure, you might save a piece for another 2-3 loadings, but at what cost? More work? more stress? worrying about if it'll chamber?

Just because a person can get 3 more loadings from a piece of brass, is that worth getting all bent out of shape over?

sorry but what are you talking about ??? 2-3 to 200 is a bit of a generalization..

yes brass is a disposable part of loading, but when one pays close to a buck a pc...you want a reasonable lfe out of it..it aint like tossing a 9mm or 40 s&w case....

and this is a unique situtation.
the swiss use one cartridge...that happends to fit two DIFFERENT swiss chambers. no other cartridge, that i know of, fits two rifles....( i said "fits"...not capable of being fired in).

its about getting "acceptable" life from a pc of brass....

when done properly i have seen 308 win go FIFTY reloads...it would benefit from neck annealing in the end.


so..."two or three more " from how many ??.....10-12 from my norma at full powder loads in a k31 will be fine with me...and i would never get them from a 7.5x55 fl die.

mike in co

[Linstrum]

Yup, Mike, you expressed my sentiments quite well.

rl728

[Bob S]

This guy "Denver Dick" has gotten 19 load/fire cycles from Norma cases in K31's using RCBS FL dies:

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/reply/12046#reply-12046

I know he had a "triumphant" post when he got to 20 with that lot of Norma Cases, but I can't find it. May have been a different board.

Re: neck sizing:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swiss/7-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swiss/7.jpg

My favorite tool for loading most cast loads in most cartridges is the Ideal/Lyman family of "nutcrackers". Of course they never made 7.5 x 55 dies for the No. 3 or 310 tools, but 30-06 dies are ubiqutous even today, and several years ago I altered a set of 30-06 dies by shortening them and opening them up slightly with the .30-284 chambering reamer, and using the .284 "insert" in the handles. I have restricted neck sizing to light cast loads only for the straight-pulls as the neck sized cases from full-power loads chamber with resistance after the first firing. YMMV .....

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[mike in co]

This guy "Denver Dick" has gotten 19 load/fire cycles from Norma cases in K31's using RCBS FL dies:

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/reply/12046#reply-12046

I know he had a "triumphant" post when he got to 20 with that lot of Norma Cases, but I can't find it. May have been a different board.

Resp'y,
Bob S.


you forgot to mention...that he was annealing EVERY FOURTH time.....does make a difference.


mike in co

[Storydude]

sorry but what are you talking about ??? 2-3 to 200 is a bit of a generalization..

yes brass is a disposable part of loading, but when one pays close to a buck a pc...you want a reasonable lfe out of it..it aint like tossing a 9mm or 40 s&w case....

and this is a unique situtation.
the swiss use one cartridge...that happends to fit two DIFFERENT swiss chambers. no other cartridge, that i know of, fits two rifles....( i said "fits"...not capable of being fired in).

its about getting "acceptable" life from a pc of brass....

when done properly i have seen 308 win go FIFTY reloads...it would benefit from neck annealing in the end.


so..."two or three more " from how many ??.....10-12 from my norma at full powder loads in a k31 will be fine with me...and i would never get them from a 7.5x55 fl die.

mike in co

Paying a buck a case is a choice you make. Actually, the GP11 cartridge fits and can be fired from 3 rifles. 1911, K31 and StG 57, All with different chambers.

I feel acceptable brass life(again, considering it's a wear item in the whole machine) to be 3-4 full power loads, assuming I can find it after It's fired.

YMMV.

[Bob S]

you forgot to mention...that he was annealing EVERY FOURTH time.....does make a difference.


mike in co

I used to anneal after every fifth firing. Now I do it closer to every tenth: getting lazy in my old age. Yes, it does make a difference.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[mike in co]

Paying a buck a case is a choice you make. Actually, the GP11 cartridge fits and can be fired from 3 rifles. 1911, K31 and StG 57, All with different chambers.

I feel acceptable brass life(again, considering it's a wear item in the whole machine) to be 3-4 full power loads, assuming I can find it after It's fired.

YMMV.

you have to go back to the very begining of this k31 die issue..
i had my first k31 and there was no brass available...everyone was out, and no 284 to convert either....

the only brass available was norma......yes i made a choice to pay for it...i also made the choice to use the CORRECT die to extend the life of my expensive brass......throwing brass away after 3-4 loadings is a waste of good brass. throw it away when the necks loose tension...or they start spliting, i dont have a stretching issue as i don't over size the brass to begin with. i do not anneal at this point , so it gets tossed when it won't work anymore, not before.

3-4 is the number passed around by high powder shooters from the mil days of '06 and 308.....it just aint so...unless you abuse your brass with improper use of a fl sizing die.

mike in co

[mpmarty]

My first S/R rifle was an 1889 with the twelve round magazine. Bought from Martin B. Rettings in Culver City California in 1957. Had plenty of cheap Swiss ammo (pre GP11) with the long round nose. Bought a set of RCBS dies for it. Five years ago I bought a couple of K31s and have been shooting high power with one of them. In measuring my fired cases and then the full length resized cases I found way too much brass movement. I called RCBS and spoke to a gentleman there who was aware of the problem and said that for fee they would cut a custom die for me if I sent them a few fired cases. After he told me the "fee" I ordered a Redding die from Midway. All is good now.

[chasw]

I use Redding dies for my K31. My brass is a small lot of FNM, left over from some factory rounds. As I do with all bottlenecked cartridges, I use a full length size die, but only push the cartridge in as far as it takes to barely kiss the shoulder. When you look at a cartridge coming out of the die that adjusted this way, you can see where the die does not squeeze the lower half of the case at all. My practice is to measure all rifle cases every time they are resized. These 7.5 Swiss cases do seem to grow faster than other cartridges.

Fortunately, my K31 digests these "half sized" cases just fine. What K31s are fussy about is OAL. Most j-bullets have to be seated very deeply, cast bullets even more so. The only pills that allow a near normal seating depth are the VLD designs, one of which is loaded in the GP-11 Swiss military round. - CW

[AzizaVFR]

What powder charges and bullet weights are you using. Since the magical chamber pressure number for the K31 with GP11 is 45,500PSI, a perfectly safe full power reload should be set at 45,000PSI. Now you are asking yourself how can I get that precise considering how little reloading information is available for this round. I personally have used the program, Load from A Disc (http://www.loadammo.com/) to help formula, test, and verify these kind of reloads. Within its database it has the 7.5x55 GP11 cartridge in its database. It is fun to do the "what if I use..." scenarios for various bullets and powders. After firing, the only sizing that is required is to use the Lee Collet die to reform the neck, then get ready to reload.

So far I have found to different powder combination behind a 175gr Berger VLD that duplicate the GP11 muzzle velocity and almost the same trajectory. I need to place the chronograph at 100 yards to verify the downrange speed difference between those silver bullets and the Bergers. The GP11 projectile was and still is a surpreme long range unit.

[JSH]

Bob, sorry this is so late, must have gotten side tracked.


Jeff,

I may have been one of the "well-meaning individuals" who told you it won't work. But I actually own a Winchester Model 70 chambered in 30-284; and in the real 3-D world, I can tell you that none of my 6 K31's, 2 K11's 2 96/11's and 2 1911 long rifles will chamber a 30-284 case because the headspace datum is about .015"-.020" longer than the 7.5 chamber. There is obviously less body taper on the 30-284, but the K31 chamber might tolerate that if it were not for the difference in headspace; the 1911 chambers would not. I have not tried to chamber a 30-284 case in either of the 1889's, or the Furter-Olten.

Bob, sorry this is soooooooooooo late
I looked at the K31 chambering of the 7.5x55 to be a sort of a minimum spec on a 30-284. As mentioned, the 30-284 will and can be spec'd out a lot of different ways. As are most wildcats.


If I may ask, has your carbine ever been checked with 7.5 headspace gauges, or 284 gauges (30-284 and 284 use the same gauges)? What brand are your 30-284 dies, and were they purchased new?

no on headspace
dies are a set of lee custom shop, they were brand new when purchased

K31's that have been rechambered to 30-284 do exist: see the 10th post in Buckshot's thread. The French could not own the K31 (or any milsurp, I think) in any military chambering; the quick fix to skirt that law was to rechamber them in the 30-284 commercial "wildcat". I saw one of these "French" K31's on this side of the pond many years ago, before K31's were commonplace, but I was not interested enough at that time to note if the carbine was marked to indicate the rechambering.

I suspect that if a guy faced .015-.020 off the base of a 30-284 die (or the shell holder) to get the correct headspace, it may work with a 7.5 K31 ... the result would be similar to the Redding "special K31" dies. I also suspect, but have not tried it (and have no motivation to do so), that a 7.5 x 55 cartridge could be fired in a 30-284 chamber without major discombobulation, if the extractor held the cartridge to the bolt well enough to get a good firing pin strike, or the bullets were jammed into the lands to hold the base of the cartridge against the bolt face at ignition.

If it's working for you, that's great ... but 30-284 will not chamber in any of my 7.5x55 chambers, and "neck up and shoot" 284's doesn't work in my rifles, either. And that's not based on just paper.


Bob, no offense taken and none meant here either, just a discussion.
When you mention the 30-284 will not chamber in your rifle. I presume you are speaking of a piece of brass that was shot in a 30-284 chamber?
I found this thread once again by accident. Summer is on us and wanted to refresh my memory.
I have a friends K31 at the bench along with his brass of reformed 284 and boxer primed 7.5. I ran it ALL through the 30-284 FL die. Just changing shell holders and bottoming out on the die. It just kissed about 1/2-3/4" above the web on all of them. I smoked one case then used a loop to look at the rest. I have no measuring tools to measure such a slight difference. However it does chamber noticable easier than a neck sized or unsized piece of brass.
FYI, the smoked case was marked all the way a round, so it just didn't drag the soot off of one side from friction. I size as much by feel as anything. There was a weee bit of resitance around the web.
I look at the 30-284 die as a large or standard base body die. Though it does size the neck at the same time and just kisses the neck shoulder junction. I do need to measure some of the mil ammo shoulder comapered to what it bumped at.

One last thing on annealing. I used to anneal only when necks sooted. I am know more towards some type of regular schedule on most everything. Yes it can be some what of a pita. But I take pride in my brass. It is as clean as it was when new and maybe even more. When I was still shooting the 7TCU, i was warned that milsurp brass was junk and should use commercial. Well, I found the exact opposite. I used LC 223 brass and had one batch of 250+ that are well over 25 loads and have been annealed numerous times. I am playing with a 6.5TCU and all of those were have been sized down from the 7.
jeff

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[madsenshooter]

What powder charges and bullet weights are you using. Since the magical chamber pressure number for the K31 with GP11 is 45,500PSI, a perfectly safe full power reload should be set at 45,000PSI. Now you are asking yourself how can I get that precise considering how little reloading information is available for this round. I personally have used the program, Load from A Disc (http://www.loadammo.com/) to help formula, test, and verify these kind of reloads. Within its database it has the 7.5x55 GP11 cartridge in its database. It is fun to do the "what if I use..." scenarios for various bullets and powders. After firing, the only sizing that is required is to use the Lee Collet die to reform the neck, then get ready to reload.

So far I have found to different powder combination behind a 175gr Berger VLD that duplicate the GP11 muzzle velocity and almost the same trajectory. I need to place the chronograph at 100 yards to verify the downrange speed difference between those silver bullets and the Bergers. The GP11 projectile was and still is a surpreme long range unit.

The magical chamber pressure number for the K31 with GP11 should be more like 55000psi. This is based on CIP data obtained via the transducer method. Your 45000 is actually the same, pressure-wise, but was obtained via the crusher method. Lots of folks get confused by this and the result is many are loading Krag pressure loads in their K31s and thinking it's a full power load. Stick that number into your Load from a Disk and see what sort of scenarios you come up with.

[excess650]

I'm gettin' in a bit late here, but will relate what I see. My dies are Hornady with the eliptical expander, and marked 7.5x55(purchased 8-10 years ago). My cases were reformed 284 Win, and I never checked length prior to reforming, and were never trimmed. They have been fired numerous times, but only with cast and moderate pressure. Here is what the caliper reveals:

K31 rifle

shoulder diameter fired case: .473"
shoulder diameter sized case: .455"

length fired case, never trimmed: 2.165"- 2.170"
length sized case, never trimmed : 2.175"-2.180"

new Privi case

shoulder diameter: .456"
length : 2.183"

I DO use LeClear dry neck lube on the necks in addition to RCBS case lube on the case bodies. I do FL size, but keep the die from touching shell holder, and visually inspect that the shoulder hasn't been set back.

I was unaware that there were different dimension 7.55x55 chambers, but will now purchase the correct dies despite (not yet) having brass issues.

***update: I see that Hornady and Redding both make dies for the K31. I ordered a set of Redding dies so as to be able to visually differentiate them from my existing Hornady dies.

[spqrzilla]

I've never found that magnitude of brass lengthening in my K31 and no real need for the Redding K31 specific dies myself.