Odd 1911 malfunction

[bootsnthejeep]

Ok, multitude of factors here, but bear with me.

Firearm: Assembled-from-parts 1911. Essex frame, unknown slide, mil-spec internals. Nothing fancy, plain Jane, bare bones.

Magazines: Did the whole fight with the cheapo cheesy 1911 magazines, got fed up when one of them spontaneously disassembled in the gun and sent rounds, follower AND spring out thru the ejection port with the slide locked back. Yeah. So I finally bought a couple of Wilson Combat 8 round mags. Much nicer.

So finally had the chance to put the combination to the test today. Had a bunch of mil surplus 45 ACP ball ammo to use as known-good, and a bunch of my handloads. 5.5 gr Bullseye under the Hensley and Gibbs 230 gr ball slug. 50/50 wheelweights to pure lead, not that it matters.

ANYWAY. Was shooting more for function and reliability rather than accuracy, I want to know this thing is going to run so I can build some trust in it before I really start fine-tuning the load. And with the factory ball ammo it runs and feeds FLAWLESSLY with these new mags.

Problem came with the handloads. And a weird problem at that. After about 50 rounds of the handloads, it starting hanging up on the last round. Its like the last round in the mag would just pop out of the magazine and not feed, and once actually followed the previous spent case out.

Tried just loading seven, did it less but still did it a few times. Once the malfunction was cleared, all those rounds chambered up properly and fired fine. I'd blame the magazine, but I tried the military ball ammo again afterward, full stuff, no problems clear thru to slidelock.

What could the cast boolit loads be doing differently feeding OUT of the magazine than the j-word military stuff?

The only anomaly here is that I DO have a Lee Factory Crimp Die, I only ran it on 15 or so rounds in the box and kept those segregated, because I wanted to see if those performed better than the regularly loaded ones. They did function fine, but so did the regular handloads at first. All ammo loaded on a Dillon SDB.

I need to run out another box and FCD them ALL and try it again, but I mostly only did that because back in the cheesy magazine days, they would fail to go all the way into battery and I was blaming the sizing. I think it had to do with a kinked recoil spring as well, but that's also been replaced now.

Thoughts? Ideas?

Boots

[runfiverun]

the old mil ball round used 5 grs of bullseye..
might wanna try that.

[anachronism]

So it double-feeds on the last two rounds? Does it simply jam the cartridge into the feed ramp, or does the nose of the cartridge go up & hit the top of the barrel? It pretty much has to be a magazine issue, amplified by the different recoil impulse of the handloads. Military ball can be pretty hot.

[HeavyMetal]

Make several dummy rounds up using your H&G cast boolits and run them through the gun.

Check to see if you have some type of "Rub Mark" on the side of the boolits where it might be coming in contact with the slide release.

Had one a few years back that would go into slide lock half way through a mag, anybody's mag! Turned out the boolit nose hit the portion of the slide lock on the inside of the mag well.

In his case the "lip" that activates the slide lock may be a tad high or rough or changes angle for the last round out of the mag.

A little dirt, real close tolerances and a boolit just a hair bigger than the ball ammo may do
this!

Mag related no doubt just not sure how!

[geargnasher]

HM has the answer, don't ask me why it hangs the last round in the mag, but Kimbers for one are notorious for it. A FA slide lock lever or a bit of work with a file cures the issue. The H&G profile will be a bit fatter at the base of the nose, probably by at least a couple of thousandths, enough to snag that release and partially strip from the mag when the fmj/tmj ball clears.

Gear

[flinchnjerk]

Jeez... why did you guys leave this to me? If there's one thing that I've learned over the years, it's that before I'll even breath a hint that a man's Wilson Combat 8-rounder isn't the greatest advance in ordnance since the metallic cartridge, I'll insult his virility, his wife's virtue and his kids' intelligence. Then I'll wander off into the bush, find a grizzly sow and kick its cub in the behind. This might toughen me up enough to withstand the hurricane of abuse that'll come my way for this.... it's your mag. A Wilson 8-rounder's spring's too weak and the follower the wrong design to hold the cartridges firmly enough against the mag lips to work under heavy recoil... and you're no doubt getting heavy recoil. Your load's WAY over maximum. Alliant lists a top load of 4.0 for 810 fps. M.D. Smith lists a maximum load of 4.8 for 884 fps. Your load's way hotter than factory, which is why you're not having he same trouble with them. Back your load down; if you're still having the problem, get a GI 7 rounder with an extra-power (11 lb.) spring and a flat follower with the "tit".

[Tazman1602]

What runfiverrun and flinchinjerk said, that loads way too hot and you're bouncing the last bullet out of the mag. Back it down to a MAX of 5grs BE (Modern Reloading, Lee) or better yet start at 4.0grs and work your way back up to an absolute max of 5grs with BE.

No insult or disrespect intended

[MtGun44]

Just curious. Where did you get the load info? There seem to be a lot of people
asking for loading data here (not you) and I wonder if some people are trying to get by
without buying a loading manual. Or maybe there is a manual out there with that hot
of a load in it.

My normal full power load is 4.7 BE for a 200 gr boolit, and about 4.5 for a 230 LRN.

Bill

[bootsnthejeep]

No insult or disrespect intended

None taken. I came looking for advice. If I'm doing something boneheaded, I want to hear about it.


Just curious. Where did you get the load info?

Funny you should ask that, when I first read your reply, I couldn't remember. So I started thinking about it. That's just what I've always used. Why? Because that's what my DAD always used. Or at least says he did. And its getting to the point where he tells me the same story three times in the same day, so why am I putting credence in that? :groner:

Come to think of it, with that information in mind, I don't think I've EVER looked up the "proper" loading information for that. Tho I do have load manuals and look everything else up, I assumed I had this one figured out. I'm lucky I have fingers to type with. [smilie=b: Or he may have TOLD me 4.5 grains and over the years it became 5.5. Funny what you think you know. Man, this makes me ugly.

I was a bit taken aback when I read Flinch's first mention of the load being too hot, and then started realizing that I had nothing to base my information on. So duly noted, I will adjust the powder measure BACK a tad and see what happens.

This'll be a start. We just got another foot of snow so don't know when I'll get back to the range but hopefully soon.

Flinch, I take no umbrage about the Wilson 8 rounders, just seemed to be the middle of the road as far as quality and cost. I don't own any stock in the company. :drinks: Sounds like you might have a favored brand in mind, whose is it?

Thanks all. We'll fall back 20 and punt and see what happens.

Boots

[Tazman1602]

Hey Boots,

THANKS! If you need load info I've got a dozen load manuals dating back to the 70's and I'd be glad to look up anything you need only it seems you've got it in hand.

Let us KNOW if that indeed solves the problem or not.

..........and keep in mind this advice comes from a guy who loaded a black powder flintlock in 1973 to impress some girls and when he dropped the flint it went "bang" and when he looked up all that was left in his hand was the handle of the pistol. Mom whipped me for a week because the breechplug went through the wall of the house, into the kitchen, and broker her stove..................<GRIN>

Someone calls me chicken nowadays and I just start cluckin.................

[35remington]

Flinchnjerk nailed it.

Here's the problem.

The last round in the magazine is held in place by rather weak spring tension, as you're likely using a seven shot length magazine with eight shots in it. This means less room for a spring if there's more room for cartridges, so the spring tension holding the round in place is weak. Thus, when the slide strikes the vertical impact surface, the round wants to stay in place due to inertia while the gun recoils away from it.

In effect, the round gets jerked out of the magazine lips when the slide goes fully rearward, and it gets launched out of the gun before it can feed.

5.0 Bullseye is the standard, full power 1911 load, used for many years by a great many shooters. Use this load and you will be fine, as it develops about 830 fps with a Lee 230-2R (actual chronographed velocity in my guns), which is the ball duplication bullet at ball duplication velocity. There is absolutely no need to be afraid of a 5 grain charge; history and many, many successful shooters have proven this load many times over. The 4 grain Bullseye load is lighter than necessary if you are intending to duplicate ball velocities, as it will be too slow.

Some of what the magazine hucksters have sold you is a bill of goods, and there's no free lunch. The eight shot in a seven shot space philosophy is also bankrupt.

Go to m1911.org

Go to the forum section.

Go to the magazine section under "The Parts Bin"

Read the stickies posted at the top on magazine function.

Some of the magazines promoted by the popular press as the best thing since sliced bread really ain't. If it sounds like the magazine hucksters are selling you something too good to be true, they probably are.

The Wilson ETM big dollar magazine is a disappointment. Wilson failed to fix several problems with his magazine when it was introduced, and it is a rather halfassed effort from Wilson to upgrade his magazines. He could have done considerably better. Even the ETM has rather weak spring tension despite being a longer magazine that has room for more spring.

[flinchnjerk]

Boots - naw, no favorite brand, but I try to use each style of mag for the purpose for which it was developed. I (blush) do have some Wilson 8-rounders, but I use 'em for their intended purpose... as "gamer" mags.... pussied-down loads, shorter than standard COAL (the reason for the abrupt or early release mag lip configuration, by the way). For full-house RN or TC....I don't try to out-think JM Browning. GI-pattern (tapered or gradual-release mag lips), flat follower with the "tit". For.... ahem...."stout" (bowling pin) loads, GI-style mags with the spring upgraded to Wolff 11 pounders (9 1/2's standard).
I hope that I didn't come across as too strong regarding your load... that wasn't my intent. I've blown the web out of a .45 hull due to some intrepid ballistic experimentation... once... and it's not an experience that I wish to repeat; nor do I wish to see you suffer that exciting occurrence.

[looseprojectile]

My Hornady 7th edition shows a 5.7 grain max load of BE for a 230grain lead bullet. Page 902.
Of course we don't start at max do we?
Heck I was afraid my five grain loads were going to wreck my gun.
The Lyman cast bullet handbook shows 5 grains BE behind a 225 grain boolit at 815 fps and 14,400 CUP. 14,400 is not anywhere near max for a .45 auto.
I use Unique behind a 255 grain rnfp. Absoutely kills bowling pins. I shoot a Canadian sixteen shot .45 auto.
Have any of you guys ever shot a .45 auto?

Life is good

[bootsnthejeep]

Well I'm going to try some of the "reduced" (Read: NORMAL) loads in the Wilsons before I give up on them, but 35Rem, thanks for the EXCELLENT link, that's EXACTLY what I'm experiencing. So if this doesn't work, just have to seek out some decent mags complete with the tit.

And Flinch, again man, no harm no foul. :drinks:

[MtGun44]

I have had good results with the few (3 I think) Wilson mags that I own. I have numerous
friends that shoot IPSC and swear by them, many years of total reliability, but not in
my guns. I have only shot them a moderate number of times, maybe 50-100 loadings
in the last couple years. Zero problems.

Bill

[DLCTEX]

I don't think 5.5 gr BE is too hot in relation to pressure, just may cause leading due to pushing lead too hard. My reload books show 5.6 for 225 gr. jacketed and 5.2 for 260 gr. jacketed. Jacketed generally runs more pressure due to resistance through the bore. That still doesn't negate the advice to load down. Besides, you can load a lot more rounds by saving a gr. per.

[NickSS]

An excellent thread and the info in it will help me with the same problem. I have a Ruger P90 that tosses the last cartridge out from time to time. This is when I am shooting fairly hot loads. Now I think I know why so a new mag spring may be in order.

[Echo]

OK. My dos centavos.

Five point five BE is too hot a load. When the first round is fired, the magazine spring is under maximum tension, and presses the stack firmly up against the lips. When there is only one round left in the magazine, the spring is under it's minimum tension. The severe recoil of the hot load causes the gun to back off the round in the magazine, allowing it to escape the lips, sending it out the ejection port right behind the ejected empty. Solution: reduce load, and maybe change magazines.

I have spoken.

[1874Sharps]

The above explanations for the OP's cited problems sound reasonable to me. As a matter of philosophy of reloading I do not try to get the absolute top velocity (read pressure) out of my pistols unless there is a very good reason for it such as taking game cleanly. I am only 51 and figure I need my guns to hold up for another 20 years or so. Rather than load up to the absolute maximum, I load 4.5 grains of Bullseye with a 230 grain boolit. Not all that much velocity is sacrificed compared to 5.5 grains and the paper target never knows the difference anyway. I saw a friend's Colt target 45 with a crack going from the slide pin hole to the top of the frame, so they can crack. I just do not see the use in pounding my ol' 45 up (or hand) for general purpose plinking. Besides, I have a 44 Mag. for that if I really need the extra horsepower. My zwei Pfennigs.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have been shooting three weapons in .45 ACP for the last 10 years. My standard load is 4.3 GR of Clay's under a 200 LSWC boolit. It is an accurate load and does not beat me or the gun up.

However I have had FTF and FTE issues in the past with 7 rd GI mag, 8 rd Taurus mags and 10 McCormick power mags. These have always been the fault of the reloader {me}. Sometimes the gunk builds up in the seating and crimping dies and I do not clean it out often enough and the round will not chamber.

Sometimes also the gun will get so dirty and so much gunk builds up in the chamber area that the round will not be seated properly.

I need to slow down in my reloading and do a better inspection of my completed rounds. I have not had any malfunctions directly related to magazines of any type. They all work as intended. For possible social situations I always use the 7 rd Original Colt magazines that I paid $7 a piece for at a gun show. For target work I use all of them including the 8 rd mags by Taurus and the 10 rd McCormick mags.

The only reason I carry the 7 rounds mags while concealed is that they do not hang out of the end of the butt and I believe that they are the most reliable mag I could possibly use. If I need more than 8 rds on a single target it is time to seek shelter elsewhere pronto.

I dissamble and clean and lube my mags every three months as I use them heavily and I want them to last. I normally shoot 300 to 500 rounds a week in .45 ACP but I have had to cut back a lot in the past year and a half due to the Primer shortages.

[bootsnthejeep]

Well, Surprise Surprise, Gentlemen. Just got back from the range and thought those who offered input would like an update.

Backed the load down to 4.5. Ran out about 30 rounds and ran them all thru the FCD. Loaded up the Wilsons and another GI style 7 rounder I found in my truck (with the 'bump'). Don't know where it came from, but glad I found it.

Not a single malfunction. None. All ammo and mags fed and functioned perfectly. And now that I've scrounged up a taller rear sight, it even shoots to POA. Well, a tad to the left, but I know how to fix that.

Thanks all. Got a happy 1911 that's about to get a whole lot more ammo digested thru it. I need to fire up the lead pot and cast more slugs.

Thanks again.

Boots