How long till the time is up on Lee's "Drive Key" patent?

[tommygirlMT]

Patents don't last forever. They run out after so many years. The Lee slug has been on the market for a while. Anyone know how much longer till the patent's time runs out? Has it run out alread?

Not a huge fan of their slug design in total but a few superior slug molds could be made even better with some careful hacksaw and dremel work on the base pin.

Just a wondering how much longer I have to wait.

[bearmn56]

TommygirlMT,
I have one of LEE's product catalogs. They say "patent rights reserved" with respect to their drive key slug. Maybe this means that they have the exclusive patent or maybe not. In any case, I have modified a LEE 1oz Drive Key slug mould with great results. This mod is not difficult and has produced significant improvement over the out of the box mould. This mod also increases the weight of the slug from about 435gr to 500gr. Five hundred grains is just a little above 1 1/8 oz. Data for this shot charge weight will work with this slug. As I noted in another thread, I am able to get 1200fps with Red Dot and 1300fps with Unique. My goal was to have an extreme cold weather load.
The design of this slug is quite ingenious as the center pin is part of the mould and does not have to be removed and reinserted when casting each slug. I have a couple of Lyman Minis that are like this. What pain in the butt when casting up a hundred or so. In my view and also like you noted, the original drive key slug has some problems. The skirt is too thin and weak and distorts on firing...surely affecting accuracy. By modifying the base pin one can make the skirt a little thicker and can make the front of the slug thicker...increasing weight and strength. I have been using an alloy harder than soft lead with good results.
One last thing....I think patents run about 20-25 years and am not sure how long LEE has been making the drive key mould. Maybe some other member has more info.
Bearmn56
Montana Territory

[Blammer]

you can modify your mould all you want and not worry about "patent" right infringement. It's when you try to sell in mass quantity "your" design, then you'll be in trouble.

[tommygirlMT]

you can modify your mould all you want and not worry about "patent" right infringement. It's when you try to sell in mass quantity "your" design, then you'll be in trouble.

I'm not so sure that's correct. It's my understanding that manufacturing even a single slug mold or modifing a single Non-Lee Manufactured mold so that it uses the patented "Lee Drive Key" or something close enough to it to be considered one and the same is legally infringment on their patent even if its only for your own personal use. Granted in the U.S. patents are enforced through the civil court system so Lee would have to find out you did it get ticked off and sue for any consequences to befall you for such infringment.

I'm not saying taking a Lee slug mold and reducing the diameter of the base pin or otherwise altering the mold is infringment of their patent --- it's not, they are the ones who made the mold with their patented "Drive Key" and all your doing is modifiying other parts and dimenstions of the mold. But, I do believe taking a completely different slug mold like say the Rapine 0.730" diameter 550 grain full bore HB slug mold and cutting a drive key into the base pin would technically be patent infringment at least until the term on their patent runs out.

To be honest, the drive key is the ONLY thing I like about the Lee mold. The nose shape is all wrong, the skirt is too thin, the hallow base is too deep, it's an "inside the wad" slug not a full bore, and last but definently not least the mold is cut inside a modified version of Lee's two cavity blocks. Which are proabably the worst mold blocks ever commercially produced in quantity. Yes, some of these things can be fixed with a little lathe and mill work to the mold but not all of them.

What bearmn56 has done with his Lee mold (I've been lurking on those threads) is a very good start and with a little bit more work on the nose shape of slug (turn it into a shallow angle SWC nose shape with a big flat meplat are) would be about as good as one could get in my opinion. But it would still be an "inside the wad" slug (not enough meat between the handles to bore it out to full bore diameter without having to modify the handle slots and alumi-weld some material back in where the slots were cut out) and it would still be a modified two cavity Lee mold block which you already know my opinion of.

So yes, I am actually interested in how many more years I have to wait until their patent runs out and the one good thing about their slug mold can be applied to other far superior slug molds to make them even better. Anyone happen to know what year they introduced that mold? That would be a good refrence point, I'm sure they had the patent filed before it hit the production line.

[oneokie]

Don't hold me to this, but it is my understanding that patents can be renewed. From what I have been told, it is nearly as costly to renew one as it is to do the original filing.

Now if Lee copyrighted the design of the slug, that is a whole different thing.

[peter nap]

Don't hold me to this, but it is my understanding that patents can be renewed. From what I have been told, it is nearly as costly to renew one as it is to do the original filing.

Now if Lee copyrighted the design of the slug, that is a whole different thing.

Oneokie....How does one copyright a design? I thought that was only for printed material, not designs.

[oneokie]

Oneokie....How does one copyright a design? I thought that was only for printed material, not designs.

Good question. The way that patent and copyright laws have changed/evolved in the last few years there is really no way of telling until one is hauled into court. My guess would be that it has to do with intellectual rights.

And somewhere there is a blueprint of that slug showing the drive key.

[tommygirlMT]

It's my understanding that copyrights cover exact duplicates or nearly exact duplicates. I have no desire to exactly duplicate their slug design. And I'll bet you dollars to donuts that with a hacksaw and dremel the key part ain't going to end up any kind of exact duplicate either.

It is also my understanding that patents cover ideas and principles not exact details. Thus a "drive key" patent gives you exclusive ownership of that basic idea and or principle. If I make a 10ga. slug with a drive key that's twice as thick at the edges and thins in the center down to almost the same thickness but not quite with a different taper angle for ease of releasing the pin from the mold so the slug is less likely to stubornly stick to the pin then no copyright problem --- big patent right problem though.

Who knows, I could be all wrong about this but I want to be honest but at the same time I want to put a drive key in several of my slug molds.

[peter nap]

It's my understanding that copyrights cover exact duplicates or nearly exact duplicates. I have no desire to exactly duplicate their slug design. And I'll bet you dollars to donuts that with a hacksaw and dremel the key part ain't going to end up any kind of exact duplicate either.

It is also my understanding that patents cover ideas and principles not exact details. Thus a "drive key" patent gives you exclusive ownership of that basic idea and or principle. If I make a 10ga. slug with a drive key that's twice as thick at the edges and thins in the center down to almost the same thickness but not quite with a different taper angle for ease of releasing the pin from the mold so the slug is less likely to stubornly stick to the pin then no copyright problem --- big patent right problem though.

Who knows, I could be all wrong about this but I want to be honest but at the same time I want to put a drive key in several of my slug molds.


I guess I should study up on it. I Copyright all my photo's but never had to try to enforce it.

The closest I ever had to a patent dispute was an argument witjh Ken Onion years ago, when I made a copy of his assisted opening folder design.
His lawyer told him he didn't have a case unless I transferred (sold) the copy to someone else.

[oneokie]

Another thing to consider and research is "first sale doctrine".

[blaster]

Nothing herein shall be considered legal advice.

You guys and gals are severely mincing your Intellectual property rights.

You cannot copyright an invention. Artists and inventors are different all the way through to the constitution. Article 1 Sec. 8 "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries" Copyright vest when the an original creative work is fixed in a tangible medium of expression. Registration of copyright or "copyrighting" is a filing process through the copyright office.

Utility patents last for 20 years from the date of filing assuming all maintenance is continued and the patent is not otherwise invalidated.

The patent claims would enumerate what lee has exclusive rights to produce.

Manufacturing a single item using patented technology is infringement. There is case law that supports the notion that patented technology may be used for purely intellectual pursuits, but this has been largely eroded in the modern era. Imagine the gentleman scholar conducting chemistry experiments in his shop to verify that the claimed process worked.

The first sale is the doctrine would likely allow you to modify a patented mold to better suit you purposes. Whether, say, applying different blocks to a lee mold would be covered under the first sale doctrine would be a question for the finder of fact.

[bohokii]

It's my understanding that copyrights cover exact duplicates or nearly exact duplicates. I have no desire to exactly duplicate their slug design. And I'll bet you dollars to donuts that with a hacksaw and dremel the key part ain't going to end up any kind of exact duplicate either.



it also covers i guess a trade dress like with jeeps stand that any front grill that has evenly spaced vertical bars is an infringement on jeeps logo

even though vertical bars are best at deflecting brush and branches comming from from the sides

[blaster]

Trade dress is a part of trademark law.

[Tristan]

from USPTO website:

" How long does patent protection last?

For applications filed on or after June 8, 1995, utility and plant patents are granted for a term which begins with the date of the grant and usually ends 20 years from the date you first applied for the patent subject to the payment of appropriate maintenance fees. Design patents last 14 years from the date you are granted the patent. No maintenance fees are required for design patents.

Note: Patents in force on June 8, 1995 and patents issued thereafter on applications filed prior to June 8, 1995 automatically have a term that is the greater of the twenty year term discussed above or seventeen years from the patent grant."

Not sure about renewals...

[Skrenos]

You cannot renew a patent. Otherwise, you could keep renewing indefinately and noone could manufacture a clone. 20 years is plenty of time to make enough money to cover R&D and patent costs.

Special exceptions are made for patent extensions. It literaly takes an act of congress to extend a patent and is usually done for pharmecutical companies. The extensions are granted for the amount of time that the pharmecutical company had to wait for FDA approval.

[Marlin Hunter]

Originally Posted by Blammer View Post
you can modify your mould all you want and not worry about "patent" right infringement. It's when you try to sell in mass quantity "your" design, then you'll be in trouble.
I'm not so sure that's correct. It's my understanding that manufacturing even a single slug mold or modifing a single Non-Lee Manufactured mold so that it uses the patented "Lee Drive Key" or something close enough to it to be considered one and the same is legally infringment on their patent even if its only for your own personal use. Granted in the U.S. patents are enforced through the civil court system so Lee would have to find out you did it get ticked off and sue for any consequences to befall you for such infringment.



I am not an patent attorney, but I have read up on basic patent law. From what I can remember, you can't make money of someone else's patent. You can make a mold just like the Lee mold, but you can't sell the slugs, or the meat from the animal you shot with it. I think there is more involved with it than that. A person could copy a machine patent and never sell it, but could use it to manufacture other things that would make them money. That is patent infringement. It would cost Lee far more money to sue you FOR DAMAGES than they could get out of you. They would have lost about $20 on 1 mold. A phone call to the lawyer would cost 10 times that amount.

[blaster]

35 USC 271 (a) " Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefore, infringes the patent."

It doesn't matter if you make money off of it or not.

Lee could recover "reasonable" attorney fees in addition to, at minimum, the "reasonable" royalty rate for use of the patent. So it could cost Lee nothing to sue you.

I did an abbreviated search of the patent records and did not find a particular approved patent that covered their claimed invention. "Patent Rights Reserved" on their mold seems to me to be layman terminology equivocal to Patent Pending, All Rights Reserved. I wonder if they applied for a patent and started putting that on their mold and never took it off after the application was rejected.

The best answer is to call and ask them what their patent number is.

[Skrenos]

I did a google patent search and could find no patents related to the Lee Drive Key as assigned to Lee Precision, Inc or to Lee Company.

'All patent rights reserved' is similar to 'all (copy)rights reserved', in that they reserve all the rights afforded to them by patent law, and that they are not waiving any of those rights. They are pretty much stating with that phrase that they will take civil action against those that violate their patent.

[tommygirlMT]

Well, I have done patent searches for any patents listing either the names of either "Lee, Richard J." or "Lee, John D." both residing at residences along Kettle Moraine Rd., Hartford, CT, 53027 as the inventor or co-inventor. So far I have not found any patent related to shotgun slug molds or molding key-ways across the HB of HB projectiles. If there is a patent on the key design of the Lee slug mold someone else besides either Richard Lee or his son John invented it. Possibly someone else that works for Lee? I'm going to e-mail them and request a patent number.

Oh, by the way found a patent listed under Richard Lee dated for just over a couple months ago describing a case activated, micro-meter adjustable, drumb type powder measure to be mounted in a reloading press suitable for use with almost any cartridge. Sounded and looked a lot like the Lee perfect powder measure only combined with a die body that is one and the same with the measure unit having a geared spring loaded plunger to activate the measure via the case. Very interesting, possibly a new product from Lee sometime soon?

Oh --- yes --- also lots of Lee patents over 20 years old, mabey some possibilites for some Chi-Com company to make a **** load of money if they can produce and sell at a lower price. Not that I'm encouraging that in any means --- I like U.S. made stuff it just looks like the patents have run out on a lot of the stuff they make. They need to start comming up with some newer better ideas to referbrish their line or they risk getting undercut.

[tommygirlMT]

The e-mail I sent to Lee:


Request: Patent # for Lee Drive Key Slug Design/PrincipleThursday, February 4, 2010 1:51 AM
From: "Angela ***********" <***********@*****.com>
To: "info@leeprecision.com" <info@leeprecision.com>

Dear Sirs,

I have been doing patent searches for any patents listing either the names of either "Lee, Richard J." or "Lee, John D." and have found the patent files for most of the Lee product line. However, there is one item which as I understand Lee does hold a patent on that I have been unable to locate. Namely the unique feature of the drive key as used in the Lee shotgun slug molds.

Would you be so kind as to provide me with the patent number as so far all my attempts to locate the patent file in question have not turned it up namely searching under the two Lee names previously mentioned or what I believed to be appropriate key words and phrases.

Thank You.

The Reply I got back:


Re: Request: Patent # for Lee Drive Key Slug Design/PrincipleThursday, February 4, 2010 10:01 PM
From: "John Lee" <info@leeprecision.com>
To: "Angela ***********" <***********@*****.com>

A patent application was made for the drive key slug mold however the patent was never granted.
At 07:44 AM 2/4/2010, you wrote:
> Dear Sirs,
>
> I have been doing patent searches for any patents listing either the names of either "Lee, Richard J." or "Lee, John D." and have found the patent files for most of the Lee product line. However, there is one item which as I understand Lee does hold a patent on that I have been unable to locate. Namely the unique feature of the drive key as used in the Lee shotgun slug molds.
>
> Would you be so kind as to provide me with the patent number as so far all my attempts to locate the patent file in question have not turned it up namely searching under the two Lee names previously mentioned or what I believed to be appropriate key words and phrases.
>
> Thank You.
>


Sincerely

John Lee, President


Now where the heck did I leave that hacksaw and dremell?

[Harmon_Greer]

i dont think it is actually patented. it seems some clever wordage to make one assume it is patented. i dont see a patent number and i could not find a patent when i searched..

[Harmon_Greer]

btw lee actually makes the powder measure...its what goes on their progressive presses

harmon

[mold maker]

The co. that I worked (most of my life) for, patented their name and applied it to all products with the pat. symbol. It kept the competition away for a really long (almost 30 yr.) time.
All that had been patented was our co. logo.

[blaster]

You cannot patent a name or logo. That is trademark.

[turbo1889]

You want to hear a really funny one?

Just visited a guys web site today that I had never heard of until today when I ran across some mentions of him in a post on another forum. Here is a quote from his web site taken from a description of a slug he sells for 410-bore shotguns:


. . . . This slug is a variation of our patented Mass Forward design. This slug has fins running down its length to limit bore contact, thereby limiting fouling. . . .

What he calls his "patented Mass Forward design" is basically the old Brenneke method of an attached base wad. From another picture on his sight that "patented Mass Forward design" he is so proud of appears to be three 1/8" nitro cards with a screw through them attaching them to the rear of his slug.

And the "fins running down its length to limit bore contact" - is it just me or does that sound just like a rifled slug to you too?

Original Indeed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[longbow]

I guess I should have patented my weight forward design and finned slug... wait a minute it has all been done before!

How did he get a patent unless he made a significant design change? Proprietary yes, patent no.

Makes me wonder.

I don't suppose you would want to share the site name would you? I am curious.

Longbow

[Spudgunr]

He probably doesn't have a patent. If he does, if it doesn't pre-date the brenneke design, then its invalid anyway (prior art). THat doesn't mean somebody ELSE doesn't own a valid patent, just that he wouldn't. My guess he is just saying that to sound more clever.

[blaster]

Actually, you could patent another mass forward design right now. Whatever patent protections you would receive would be weak however.
I'm sure his patent is for something like:
...Said projectile having it's center of mass 16.125mm from said first end.
The fins of claim 1 being 1.234mm in thickness...

You can see a claims set like this would provide you with protection over a very specific embodiment of the claimed device. If some onemade a mass forward design that didn't have every element of the claimed invention they would not infringe, i.e. 1.233mm thick fins instead of 1.234mm thick fins.

They could still call it patented as a marketing tool, even if it basically protects nothing.

[phaessler]

I agree blaster...not sure of the legal limits to design deviations. But some patents/copyrights dont go "dimensionally" rather than by design and interpretation of function. SOunds like a "grey" area to me, but I guess if you got something that will work better its worth a shot.
Just IMHO....

[wellfedirishman]

OK, here is what you all are looking for:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=8D8rAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

This is a (maybe not the only one) Lee slug mold patent: 3,749,351
It was issued in July 1973, and expired in the early 1990s.

So it is no longer enforceable. The cover figure looks just like the Lee shotgun slug mold I have. I don't see a drive key on it, so maybe that is in a different patent, or perhaps a patent application that was never granted.

Just out of interest, here is a quick search of Richard Lee and 'shotgun':

SHOTGUN SHELL RELOADING MACHINES
US Pat. 3336829 - Filed May 17, 1966 -
Aug. 22, Filed May, . R- • J- LEE . SHOTGUN SHELL RELOADING MACHINES 3336?82St 3
Sheets-Sheet j. <53 INVENTOR RICHARD j, LEE BY AT TORN EY. ...
Shotgun shell reloader
US Pat. 5040449 - Filed Nov 30, 1990
20, [54] SHOTGUN SHELL RELOADER [76] Inventor: Richard J. Lee, 3146 Kettle
Moraine Rd., Hartford, Wis. 53027 [21] Appl. No. ...

Shotgun shell loading press
US Pat. D247784 - Filed Feb 23, 1976
United States Patent Lee [ii] Des. 247784 [45] *, Apr. 25, [54] SHOTGUN SHELL
LOADING PRESS [76] Inventor: Richard J. Lee, RR 2, Hartford, Wis. ...

Shotgun shell loading
US Pat. 4177711 - Filed Aug 28, 1978
United States Patent Lee [ii] 4177711 [45] Dec., [54] SHOTGUN SHELL LOADING [76]
Inventor: [52] [58] [56] Richard J. Lee, Highway "U", Hartford, Wis. ...

SHOTGUN SHELL RELOADING TOOLS
US Pat. 3053132 - Filed Mar 24, 1958
... SHOTGUN SHELL RELOADING TOOLS Richard J. Lee, 6026 N. Apple Blossom Lane,,
... relates to. tools for reloading or reconditioning shotgun shells. ...

SHOTGUN SHELL RELOADING IMPLEMENTS
US Pat. 3343444 - Filed Oct 4, 1965 -
... SHOTGUN SHELL RELOADING IMPLEMENTS Richard J. Lee, RR, Hartford, Wis. ... 86
—) This invention relates to improvements in shotgun shell reloading ...

CARTRIDGE PRIMER
US Pat. 3555959 - Filed Apr 22, 1968
... [72] Inventor Richard J. Lee Rte. 2, Hartford, Wis. ... provided for
installing new primers in used cartridges or shotgun shells to permit the
reloading ...

[steg]

Dont ask dont tell,LOL