sulfer & lead

[acoilfld]

I read an article a while back about using sulfer to increase the hardness of lead. I can't seem to find that information again. Has anyone heard of this or have any information on it?

Thanks

AC

[lwknight]

I betcha it will be stinky if nothing else. I have accidently gotten some sulfur in my lead before and it was nasty. I never thought about testing to see what other affect it had.

[SciFiJim]

I think I read the same article. Sulfer is one of the elements that operate as a catalyst to heat hardening. Arsenic is used in wheel weights for the same reason. It's been proposed that if arsenic is removed, or WWs become impossible to find, that we can add sulfer to the alloy for heat treating hardness.

[acoilfld]

I might try experimenting some. I would just like to read about it some more first.
I have a large quanity of sulfer on hand, plus experience in working in a sulfer plant - I know the dangers of the fumes (SO2).

[odoh]

IIRC, high consentration of sulfur in london from coal fuels mixing w/heavy fog/water vapors combined to create sulfuric acid in peoples lungs. Heard the samething happened in St Louis sometime in the great depression but on a smaller scale. Don't think I'll experiment ~:eek:

[SciFiJim]

It's a matter of adding 1/4 to 1/2 of 1%. The method used for home use in the example that I read was to place the sulfur in a mesh tea ball and keep it submerged in the alloy for 1/2 an hour. I would think that the sulfur would melt to a liquid state and flow through the mesh, but it worked in the example given. I didn't do personally, so YMMV. I would definitely do it out doors and avoid the fumes, possibly set it up and move completely away for the time needed.

[acoilfld]

"IIRC, high consentration of sulfur in london from coal fuels mixing w/heavy fog/water vapors combined to create sulfuric acid in peoples lungs. Heard the samething happened in St Louis sometime in the great depression but on a smaller scale. Don't think I'll experiment ~ "



As I understand it (told in safety meetings), when sulfer burns (especialy in incomplete combustion) it creats SO2 (sulfer dioxide). SO2 will combine with water (moisture in your lungs) to form sulferic acid - not good. I have worked around sulfer at the plant in Ft. Nelson, as well as in vessle repair. I got a good blast of sulfer fumes about 15 yrs ago, took me to my knees, coughed real bad for about a week. These days the health of the workers is more of a concern. We are issued proper PPE instead of being told "Hold your breath. :confused:

[acoilfld]

Thanks Jim

[SciFiJim]

I think I will agree with acoilfd and odoh. Not something to experiment with. It sounds like a good way to do serious damage to yourself. If it is ever needed, let someone else figure it out and then get the alloy from them. In the meantime, somethings really ARE too dangerous to play with. I thing sulfuric acid in the lungs has to rate very near the top of things not to try.

[Bret4207]

Wasn't there recent discovery on removing Zinc from lead alloys also done with sulfur?

[rob45]

Wasn't there recent discovery on removing Zinc from lead alloys also done with sulfur?

Here is the zinc removal discussion:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=62957

Also, here is the follow-up to that thread where someone actually ran the experiment:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=63082

[Willbird]

I think I will agree with acoilfd and odoh. Not something to experiment with. It sounds like a good way to do serious damage to yourself. If it is ever needed, let someone else figure it out and then get the alloy from them. In the meantime, somethings really ARE too dangerous to play with. I thing sulfuric acid in the lungs has to rate very near the top of things not to try.


But arsenic and lead are just fine to play with every day (wheelweights ) ???

:-).


Bill

[rhead]

If you placed a small amount of sulfur in the pot with the lead and then covere the whole thing with a layer of kitty litter and charcoal to keep out the O2 before turning on the heatyou could melt it and allow at least some of the sulfur to react with the lead . You would wind up with a solution of lead and a few % galena (Lead Sulfide) I do not know what the saturation point of galena in lead is an have not been able to find the data. (Probably pretty low.) The casting of the bullets would have to be done under reductive conditions to prevent the oxidation of the galena to lead oxide. Otherwise the galena content and the hardness would vary over time as the level in the pot was reduced. The bullets should be harder and more brittle with less tensile strength. If that is what your gun happens to want then they would shoot better. The treatment can be reversed by melting and stirring while exposed toair and following with fluxing. Do it outdoors and stay upwind.

[MtGun44]

Arsenic and lead don't vaporize at casting temps, sulfur burns to a toxic vapor SO2.

Huge difference in the ability to control entry to the body. You have to breath, but if you
can keep your hands out of your mouth until you wash them you are OK.

Bill

[Willbird]

The dross from WW if allowed to get wet is arguably just as dangerous as sulfur. And when we shoot BP we are burning sulfur..............right ??

Bill

[PatMarlin]

I think I may have found an outcropping deposit of sulfur. I need to find out how to get a sample tested.

[9.3X62AL]

While safety is a definite concern during any such process--I have a factor that trumps safety all hollow--SWMBO. One whiff of sulphur-based perfumery in the same garage she keeps her Jeep in will assign me permanently to the doghouse. Let's be real, here.

[acoilfld]

Went to our shop today to experiment. I put a large cast iron "Dutch oven" under the fume hood wiith 10 pounds of range lead and 20 pounds of wheel weights. I added 1/4 cup of sulfer to the mix and "tossed" it before I applied any heat. The sulfer that I used was ground to a fine powder in my ball mill. I used a slow flame to melt the mixture - took about 20 minutes to turn it into a slurry. lots of dark smoke - wouldn't try it without the hood. Stirred in another 1/4 cup by sprinkling it on top and "pushing " it down through the mixture. Covered it with a layer of ashes and let it cook for 20 minutes, stiring every few. Skimmed the pot (removed the ****) and cast it into 1 pound ingots. Went home and remelted the ingots in my lee bottom pour - fluxed them with bullet lube (amazingly clean) and re-cast them into 1/4 pound ingots. I will cast some bullets soon from it and have a hardness test preformed on it to see what I ended up with. Not sure what will be the result - but it was a learning experience at least.

[runfiverun]

a teaspoon full is all you needed.
sulphur changes the grain structure of lead alloys causing the grains to become tighter packed.
it affects lead alloys in the same way arsenic does.
it also affects it like arsenic does by creating more surface tension,would be pretty good stuff for shot making.
if you read the other thread you'll notice that sulphur will remove zinc but it also affects tin in the alloy.
sulpher has it's place but the amounts should be low, under 1% is all thats necessary.

[acoilfld]

I read the other thread - it focuses more on zinc removal than hardnes, so I thought that I would experiment with this. I am lucky in that have more lead than I could cast in 5 years (not much demand for it here), plus a safe place to do this.
I am not to concerned with tin (or other ) loss, as what I removed from the top was clips and a minimal amount of normal dross. If anything, there was less to remove. Plus the final product looks "cleaner that usual", if you know what I mean. The sulfer seemed to act like a really good flux.
Worse case - I will use the lead for 45 acp for my 1911's.
I will have the xray guys (NDE) do a hardness test on it for me - Air cooled, Water dropped, & Heat treated in an oven - see what I ended up with.

How long should I let the lead "cure" in each case before having it tested??

[acoilfld]

Thank you for the info Runfiverun.
Sorry if my typing seems abrupt - just not very good at it.

AC

[Taylor]

My father in law worked for Hurst Chemical in Rhode Island, he died long and slow.I closed his eyes for him,I for one won't experiment on someting that I don't have a complete understanding of and experience with.Lead I can control.

[acoilfld]

I appreciate the dangers involved with toxic fumes. My job for the last 20+ years has been to work in a H2S (Hydrogen Sulfide) environment as well as welding/repair of sulfur contaminated piping & vessels. That is why I used my companies shop for the initial mixing/blending. It is equipped with fume hoods, and if required - supplied air. If I did not have access to these protective measures I would not have tried it.

[kawalekm]

I seem to remember reading something on this board a while back about how to remove antimony from alloy to make pure lead. The idea presented was to mix pure sulfur with wheelweight lead. The sulfur would react with the antimony to make antimony bisulfide, which was skimmed off as dross. So, adding sulfur might do the opposite, making the alloy softer by the removal of its antimony.

[acoilfld]

I am not sure myself of the effect it will have.
I will post results of the hardness testing when I get it done.

[runfiverun]

give them two weeks
they should be pretty stable by then.
the water dropped and heat treated will be at about 90% hardness by then.
and the aircooled should be near 100%.
but what do i know i am just a fracker.:lol:

[rhead]

I seem to remember reading something on this board a while back about how to remove antimony from alloy to make pure lead. The idea presented was to mix pure sulfur with wheelweight lead. The sulfur would react with the antimony to make antimony bisulfide, which was skimmed off as dross. So, adding sulfur might do the opposite, making the alloy softer by the removal of its antimony.

The chemical activities of the two metals are so close that any prediction without extensive testing of which one would react the quickest would be speculation. Just from theie position in the periodic table they should react with sulfur at the same rate on a pro rata basis.

100 pounds of 4% antimony and 96% lead add enough sulfur to get 1% to react.The result would be very close to 95.04 pounds of lead 3.96, pounds of antimony, 1pound of lead as lead sulfide (some of which is in solutuin) .04 pounds of antimony as antimony sulfide. This is ignoring the presence of the tin in the original alloy, which would have reacted at very much the same rate as the antimony.

I have no idea if the resulting solution would make a better boolit.