Mitchell Mausers in .308 questions about

[Multigunner]

Hi
I've been considering obtaining a good quality military style bolt action in .308 caliber.
I'm not interested in the Indian 2A rifles, though I own several .303 Enfield, I just don't trust the rear locking action with the hotter heavy bullet loads in .308 or 7.62 NATO.

The Israeli converted Mausers look to be a good rifle, but aren't that easy to find these days.
The South American 7.62 NATO conversion seem to range in quality from excellent to abysmal.

Anyway what I'd like to know is whether anyone here owns a Mitchell Mauser in .308, and any details I can find out on the barrel and chamber.
The rifling and twist, bore diameters, whether the headspace is close enough to allow easy reloading and good case life if full length resized, etc.

I once owned a Persian Mauser Carbine in 8mm that was very much like the Mitchell tanker Mauser in .308.
The Persian Mauser was far too heavy for its size due to it having a very thick barrel up to just before the bayonet mount, the barrel then being tapered sharply like a case shoulder.
Its stock looked the same as the blond wood shown on the Tanker carbine.

I'm not married to the Carbine idea, I'd probably do best to get a Karabiner (K98) length rifle.

Any information would be useful in making up my mind.

Also any suggestions on finding what I'd need to build my own 7.62/308 on a Mauser action at a reasonable outlay in parts and labor.
If any surplus 7.62 barrels are available that would be a good place to start.

[Frank46]

Haven't had a copy of shotgun news in awhile, but you may want to check out cole's or copes. Two different companies. Seem to remember one of them having norwegian 308 bbls for the 98K. Cost was about $100 for the bbl. Also available was norwegian kongsburg 308 target bbls. Slightly different barrel style but about 26" long and were brand new as were the above mentioned bbl. Hope this helps. Frank

[Tazman1602]

Hi
Also any suggestions on finding what I'd need to build my own 7.62/308 on a Mauser action at a reasonable outlay in parts and labor.
If any surplus 7.62 barrels are available that would be a good place to start.

I think barrels can be found fairly reasonably yet Multi, the issue lately has been affordability of decent quality Mauser actions because ALL of the cheap, affordable Mauser actions are now GONE and man, I mean GONE.

In the early to mid 90's you could still get them and I was regularly sporterizing them with bolt handles, triggers, stocks, etc. The supply is simply not there anymore. Even the huge supply of Enfields we used to see is no more.

Very distressing and I've got to wonder where they've all gone, just glad I kept a few for myself for "one day" projects.

I'll be following you, best of luck man!

Art

[Bob S]

A Yugo 24/47 with a Wilson military profile .308 barrel:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Mausers/308_Yugo.jpg

The barrels were about $100 when I did this. They are a little more expensive now, but still the way I would recommend going.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=37502/pid=16633/sku/Military_Step___308

The Wilson barrels are prethreaded and short-chambered, so no lathe work is required, but you'll need an action wrench, barrel vise, finish chambering reamer and headspace gauges. If you need to bring it to a professional, it's a fairly straight-forward installation and shouldn't cost an arm and a leg.

If you'd rather have a long rifle, Lothar Walther makes a pre-threaded GEW 98 military profile, but the cost will be about $300 with shipping from Georgia (or wherever Lothar Walther USA is today). I have one, but have not installed it yet, so I don't know if it's short chambered or long chambered.

FWIW, all of the Norwegian 7.62-marked Mausers I have seen are 7.62 x 63, or 30-06. The only "surplus" barrel that I would trust to be of good quality is an IDF NOS barrel. I found a couple of them on eBay back when you could actually buy gun parts there. I think I paid $150 for a pair, NOS in the white, with 1969 dates. If you are able to find one today, the price may be close to what the Wilson goes for.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Multigunner]

Thanks, just the info I'm looking for.

I often run across old sporterized military rifles, sometimes dirt cheap.
I've a friend who blue prints mauser type actions for use as long range match rifles and varmint rifles, truing the bolt face, lugs, seats, etc. He has all the necessary tools and such to rebarrel and cut chambers.
I already have a partly cut down Argentine Mauser stock that same friend gave to me many years ago to test out different methods of drawing oil and dirt out of old wood. He had gotten a synthetic stock to finish up that project so he didn't have any further use for the stock.
I was surprized how well the cleaning up operation turned out, and I've been planning on building up a Mauser for no other reason than to put that stock to good use.
Should I decide on a carbine length with military styling theres enough unaltered wood there that I can splice in a fore end extension ala Duffle Cut.

Only reason I'd rather have a military style stock with handguards is that I find these easier to handle when climbing, and my property in the mountains is mostly straight up or down, if you rolled it out flat it would be the size of Texas.

I may go for a contoured barrel, I remember the Mauser 98a artillery carbine used a contoured barrel for lighter weight.
Since I don't have any day long fire fights in mind I can get by with a lightweight tube. Not looking for any great long range performance, just good accuracy to 400 yards at most with iron sights.
I have an old Enfield rear sight bed and other parts I could modify to fit and maintain the mauser look, its a tangent sight superior to the Mauser in fine adjustment and suited to a tapered barrel.
I may figure a way to shorten it and reduce its bulk, since I don't need more than a 400 yard range.
The Mauser special range rifles had a shorter and trimmer tangent sight, I think those had a 600 or 800 yard range.
Handguards, bands etc are within my skills to fabricate, and I have some odds and ends laying about that can be adapted.

It won't be a military rifle, or even a repro of a particular type, just a para military style woods rifle.

The old Persian Carbine I had was a disapointment due to its weight and muzzle blast, though not so bad with light handloads.
I figure to base my carbine on it, but with improvements.
Probably a mix of Police Carbine and Range Rifle features.

[Patrick L]

I have no personal experience, but I've read that Mitchell's is to be avoided like the plague.

Just what I've heard.

[Bret4207]

Same as Pat here- no first hand knowledge but from what I hear Mitchells are very overpriced for what you get.

Gotta pay for the full color advertising somehow.

[Multigunner]

I checked their site and what turned me off to their M63 Tanker was that the .308 version was priced a full 100 bucks higher than the .30/06 or even the .243 chamberings.

If they asked the same price for the .308 as for the others I might have considered it worth while to pay a premium for what amounted to a new production rifle that was basically just what I would have built for myself.
But at a C note higher than the rest its a rip off.

I'll do better to build up my own short rifle.
I've pretty much decided that a 20 inch tube is about as short as would be efficient for the .308, and just as handy.

PS
If my experiance with that Persian Mauser counts for anything I can say that 18 inch barrels and full bore cartridges just aren't a good mix.
Handloading with a faster burning powder does help though.

I used 4198 and 4227 for light handloads, those worked out fine.
These powders worked well in a friend's No.5 Carbine as well.

[milsurp mike]

+1 on Mitchell's.Probably the biggest rifle Humpers in the World.Mike

[Tazman1602]

Man that's sad, I've always wanted one of those nice looking pristine Mitchell Mausers and this is the third or fourth time I've heard the same thing about them. They sure do look nice in all those color pics though!!!

.......Guess I'll have to settle for the few beat up old war relics I"ve already got.

[phaessler]

I concur with everyone here, dont do it. Mitchell is a scam artist. $349 for an M48, I was puking when I saw what was spent on these things. I picked up ( several years ago) a pair of consecutive, matched numbers M48's ( should have bought all 4) for $159each at a gun show. Came with numbered bayontes and the slings.
Look around find yourself a real VZ24 or even a cheap M48, and feel good sporterizing it, and shooting it.
Just my opinion.
Pete

[Uncle Grinch]

You may want to consider this one if $$$ are an issue.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=153620765

Looks good to me. I've just bought and IDF barrelled that I'm working on restoring now.

[Multigunner]

You may want to consider this one if $$$ are an issue.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=153620765

Looks good to me. I've just bought and IDF barrelled that I'm working on restoring now.

That does look like a decent deal

Theres something in the description that reminds me of something I ran across many years ago.

USED: Mauser 98k IDF FN 308. ................Bolt is a German Mauser numbered RC,

Years ago I read of an FN manufacture Mauser shedding half its left hand locking lug during a hunt in Africa. The owner of the rifle had a WW2 manufacture German K98 bolt fitted to finish the hunt.
He wrote that he'd looked into why his FN bolt failed and found that for awhile FN had failed to machine a proper radius where lug met bolt body, and that the cut for the ejector was also too abrupt. The sharp angles caused some bolts to fail just as his had done.
He didn't give enough information to figure out which models and years of manufacture were affected, but said that fitting German manufacture surplus K98 bolts was a common fix for a cracked lug or just for added safety.
No telling if thats why this rifles has a German bolt, but its a possibility.

I may find something along this lines locally, I prefer to examine a rifle closely first hand before investing in it.

PS
When I next contact my friend I'll ask if he has any .308 bore take off barrels from match rifles that can be turned to fit a large ring action and set back for rechambering.
A used matchgrade barrel, if set back is often more accurate than a new barrel.
Might get one for very little outlay.

[matm0702]

Coles Distributing had nos K98 barrels in 7.62 for around $99 apiece. This was
a option I had in mind but haven't found a candidate with a shot out barrel. Plus I just got a FR8 Spanish so this project really got stuck on the back burner. I would stay away from Mitchells as I've found better stuff thru my local gunshop.

Mike

[Multigunner]

Coles Distributing had nos K98 barrels in 7.62 for around $99 apiece. This was
a option I had in mind but haven't found a candidate with a shot out barrel. Plus I just got a FR8 Spanish so this project really got stuck on the back burner. I would stay away from Mitchells as I've found better stuff thru my local gunshop.

Mike

That sounds more suited to my budget, such as it is.
I probably should start off with the rifle at full 98K length and see how I like its handling qualities before deciding on commiting to a shortened tube.

I know a fellow who is retiring from the surplus business, he's in his eighties now, and I'm pretty sure he has a few old rifles stashed away that were too beat up to move easily.
I fixed up a few for him many years ago, finding parts and inspecting some to point out possible defects, also refinishing a few. I'm sure that if he has any old Mausers in the store room I can get a good discount on one.

I remember he once had several complete sets of laminated stocks and handguards for K98, for restoring sportered rifles. Those looked to be brand new, or unissued old stock. That was in the late 80's or early 90's.

[Doc1]

Ya know, you might just want to pick up a Spanish FR8. They're standard Model 98 actions and have already been converted to 7.62x51 carbines by the Spanish military arsenals. Any comments you hear about them being "weak" or of "inferior steel" should be sent straight to the baloney file.

With my older eyes, one of the FR8's best features is its stock peep sight! These let me continue to use irons.

I have an FN-produced Israeli .308 too, but I honestly don't enjoy it as much as my humble little FR8.

Best regards
Doc

[Multigunner]

Ya know, you might just want to pick up a Spanish FR8. They're standard Model 98 actions and have already been converted to 7.62x51 carbines by the Spanish military arsenals. Any comments you hear about them being "weak" or of "inferior steel" should be sent straight to the baloney file.

With my older eyes, one of the FR8's best features is its stock peep sight! These let me continue to use irons.

I have an FN-produced Israeli .308 too, but I honestly don't enjoy it as much as my humble little FR8.

Best regards
Doc

When the Spanish 7.62 rifles were first seen on the market there were several incidents of blow ups which were finally traced to a shipment of santa barbra marked 7.62 ammunition which inexplicably had high pressure proof rounds mixed in with the regular ball. Some of this ammo turned out to generate close to 67,000 CUP, far too much for most actions.
I don't doubt that the 1943 Mauser would hold up to regular NATO rifle ball. The 1916 Mauser seems to hold up pretty good for that matter.

The spanish did use a number of WW1 surplus Gew98 long rifles whose shot out 7.92 bores had been relined to 7mm. The older GEW98 actions weren't considered to be as strong as later production K98 actions, and articles on imported sporting rifles printed after WW1 told of surplus unfinished actions being used to build cheap sporters and these were said to have often shown poor heat treatment.

I haven't found much reliable info on the Spanish Mausers so far as metalurgy and heat treat goes.
I would expect most were as good or better than those manufatured under license in other countries, certainly far better than the Chinese copies which isn't saying much.

I'll keep the FR8 in mind.

[Doc1]

Multi,

I've been following the Spanish Mauser saga for years now and it's been covered on this board a few times. I'm not an "exspurt," but do know the rifles fairly well.

The FR8 (unlike the FR7) was produced from Spanish-made M43 rifles. Every one I've seen was made in the La Caruna Arsenal. The M43 was the Spanish version of the K98 in 7.92x57 and adopted in 1943. It is a pure '98 action, though some of the rifle's furniture and fittings are a little different.

When Spain was making the transition to the CETME and the 7.62x51 NATO round, they found that production was very slow, in part due to international sanctions against Spain at the time. The Spanish had thousands of M43s available and rather than scrap or sell these rifles, they made the intelligent choice to convert them to 7.62 NATO as a stop-gap measure. Essentially, they shortened the M43, installed peep sights similar to the CETME's and installed a slightly-modified CETME barrel. Forget anything you've heard about mystery, under-powered 7.62 CETME cartridges (which did exist, but are completely irrelevant to this missive) or anything to the effect that the FR8s are "weak."

Again, they are built on standard M98 actions and were produced in European arsenals during WWII, by a nation that was not at war and did not use slave or conscript labor!

It amazes me to hear otherwise knowledgeable Mauser fans - who will happily shoot German K98ks of dubious origin - rag on the Spanish versions. Note that I'm not saying that the Spaniards are *better* Mausers than the German. I'm only going to state my own confidence criterion: I feel more comfortable shooting my 8mm M43 and my 7.62 NATO FR8 with full-powered rounds than I would shooting a late war German Mauser. In point of fact, assuming headspace and other mechanicals check out, I don't mind shooting late war Mausers, either. It's a very strong design. Lots of magnum rifles have been built on M98 actions.

If you find a nice FR8, I think you'll have a fine brush companion that will outlast your grandkids :-)

Best regards
Doc


When the Spanish 7.62 rifles were first seen on the market there were several incidents of blow ups which were finally traced to a shipment of santa barbra marked 7.62 ammunition which inexplicably had high pressure proof rounds mixed in with the regular ball. Some of this ammo turned out to generate close to 67,000 CUP, far too much for most actions.
I don't doubt that the 1943 Mauser would hold up to regular NATO rifle ball. The 1916 Mauser seems to hold up pretty good for that matter.

The spanish did use a number of WW1 surplus Gew98 long rifles whose shot out 7.92 bores had been relined to 7mm. The older GEW98 actions weren't considered to be as strong as later production K98 actions, and articles on imported sporting rifles printed after WW1 told of surplus unfinished actions being used to build cheap sporters and these were said to have often shown poor heat treatment.

I haven't found much reliable info on the Spanish Mausers so far as metalurgy and heat treat goes.
I would expect most were as good or better than those manufatured under license in other countries, certainly far better than the Chine copies which isn't saying much.

I'll keep the FR8 in mind.

[doctorxring]

.


I have a Mitchell's "Tanker" M63 rifle. It is a beautiful rifle of
high build quality. I have the 8x57 chambering.

The only thing Mitchell did with this one is import it and stamp
their name on it. They have NOTHING to do with the manufacture
of it. It is built by Zastava Arms.

The "Tanker" name is pure invention of Mitchell's though and total BS.


I agree with Doc1 though. An FR-8 is a worthy rifle. I have one of those
as well and it's a very solid rifle. Very unique configuration.

dxr

.

[Multigunner]

.



I agree with Doc1 though. An FR-8 is a worthy rifle. I have one of those
as well and it's a very solid rifle. Very unique configuration.

dxr

.

The short fore arm and all the added stuff for the grenade launcher actually counts against it for my uses. I would consider using an FR8 barreled action as the basis for building a short rifle with more conventional military styling.

I've done a lot of rough country hiking, the mountains here can be as wild as anywhere on earth, and the solidity of the full length handguards of the military rifles allows one to use the rifle as a climbing aid rather than just a burden.
Holding a naked barrel doesn't give much of a grip.

A hard rubber butt plate will be one necessary addition, not as a recoil pad but more to get a good grip on rock or logs while negotiating a steep trail, and a good grip on the shoulder when wearing heavy clothing , pack, or web gear.

I usually use a slip on pad, this allows the butt to be short enough to bring to the shoulder easily when wearing a thick winter coat, and with pad in place sufficient length of pull in warm weather when wearing only a shirt.

I'll probably hollow out the butt, I keep the hollow butt of my synthetic stocked small bore loaded with extra ammo packed in a flat tin and a few odds and ends like a spare pocket knife and lengths of cord plus cleaning gear and padded with clean cloth suitable for patches or bandages if need be.

Been thinking on methods of lightening the action as well. An aluminum floorplate and follower perhaps, I can make those myself. Skeletonizing the magwell is another option.
Hollowing out the fore end under the barrel would remove a few more ounces.
I figure I can take off near a pound without compromising strength.