IMR 4831 vs. H 4831

[Gray Fox]

I'm contemplating buying a very nice match grade M-1 Garand I've found and have been reading all the posts and have found the "BobS load". I have the Lee 309-200 mold and 3 pounds of IMR 4831. Can this powder be substituted for the Hodgdon powder?

[wiljen]

I'd buy an adjustable gas plug for the M1 and then close the gas port only til it cycles. That is the safe way to use about any powder in the M1. And yes, I've found H4831 to be just slightly faster than IMR 4831 so if you are starting with starting charges, the two can be interchanged. (As always, dont start with max charges as lot to lot variations do occur).

[JeffinNZ]

Given that Hodgdon now own their own range, IMR and Winchester powders the day is coming when the IMR powders will be identical to the H series. H4227 and IMR4227 are case in point. Same powder from ADI (AR2205).

Have you checked the MSDS on the Hodgdon site? Might be that way already.

[bearmn56]

Gray Fox,
My buring rate chart shows that IMR 4831 is FASTER than H4831. My varous reloading manuals reflect this as well. Slow burning powders will work fine with cast bullets. That said, the M1 Garand's gas system is designed for powders in the middle buring range..like, IMR and H4895, IMR 4064, Varget etc, etc. So, IMR4831 loads will probably be outside the optimum perameters for good cycling of the action. I am sure that others can add much more info as well.
Bearmn56
Montana Territory

[BruceB]

For Heaven's sake!

HOW LONG will it take before the word gets around, that CAST BULLETS ARE DIFFERENT?

The parroting of "accepted truths" in handloading circles is epidemic.

NO, H and IMR 4831 are NOT "too slow" for use with cast bullets in full-power autoloading rifles, either the Garand, or other rifles. YES, they're "too slow" for use with jacketed bullets.

Search this site for a great deal of information on using the 4831s and other slow-burners in the Garand with cast bullets. They work extremely well. Statements to the contrary are perpetuating myths, and we do not need myths.

[bearmn56]

Bruce B,
Didn't mean to touch a nerve....The information that I brought up is perfectly valid. I didn 't say that IMR4831 would not work.. One of the original 30-06 loads was the 30cal ball M1...a 173gr bullet at around 2600fps. This loading caused lots of problems and damage in the new M1 Garand. Therefore, the 30cal ball M2 was developed. A 150gr bullet ahead of around 49gr of 4895 and a velocity of around 2700fps. This cycled the action correctly without beating things apart.
I have shot cast bullets in semi autos. Wiljen is on the right track. I have used what powders that I had on hand and loaded them until the action would cycle....(making sure that the load that I was using was not too high a pressure).. I have had some semi's that would lay the spent brass in a nice little pile to my right. I personally am not shooting any semi's at this time with lead bullets. I have gone to all bolt guns.
Bearmn56
Montana Territory

[Gray Fox]

Thanks for the input guys. I will proceed carefully.

[BruceB]

While the adjustable gas plugs are a desirable idea, they are emphatically not required for use with slow-burners in the Garand. In fact, based on personal experimentation, I strongly suspect that such plugs would have to be set completely closed with the 4831s. This is because the pressures developed are relatively LOW at the gas port, as compared to more "conventional" loads with jacketed bullets.

My experience with handloading the Garand goes back several decades, and with cast bullets I've been developing loads for about the last ten years. I have a pretty good handle on what works, and what doesn't.

Along with many others here, I find the slow-burning end of the powder spectrum offers useful options in the Garand, along with the other "forbidden element" in Garand loads, which is the use of bullets over 180 grains. When using cast bullets, this is another "accepted truth" which is so much horse manure. HEAVY cast bullets, even over 220 grains, offer great utility in Garand rifles. The combination of slow powder and heavy cast bullets doesn't harm Garands in any way, given the usual care expected in handloading anything.

Bearmn, thanks for the reasoned tone of your comments. Looking back, my last post was a little abrupt.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I do not think Bruce's words were off mark at all. I even agree with the tone as I have had parrotted to me too many taboos "they said that you need to break in a barrell this way" etc over the years.

Upon further examination I have found many of those taboos and traditions to have started with some Gunzine writers opinion a la Massad Ayoob about not carrying hand loaded ammo in CCW gun etc.

I think mr Ayoob is a giftted and talented writer and a good advocate for CCW shooters. Like Bret, I suspect his Police Officer LEO credentials but his books and writings about what should occur once a citizen fires off a few rounds are spot on.

As having been a police officer and having been involved in a handful of shootings I know well the microscope a shooter's actions are looked at with.

Back to the Garand, I have searched this forum and the writings of Bruce B and Larry Gibson and a few others and learned how to load for this weapon.

Using a slow powder and dacron filler I have had good success with it for some time and I have not damaged the gas cylinder or port at all. I cast with a Lyman 311284 that makes a decent and accurate boolit and lubed with Lar Carnuba Red and a gas check I am getting very good performance with it.

I have even ventured into the shadow world of Paper Patching these rounds and not using a gas check nor lube. It all works well and I suffer less recoil and less muzzle blast using these principals.

There is a mountain of knowledge and experience to draw upon from this thread.
So dig in, pour a cup of coffe and sit down and learn from those who have ventured along that same path.

303 Guy, docone31, Larry Gibson, Bruce B and a host of other members have spent the time to disseminate what they have learned and we Little Grasshoppers have only to read, learn and go forth.