22-250 Ackley Improved 28° or 40°?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I know very little about either cartridge, so I am not sure what questions to ask. I have thought about rebarreling my 22-250Rem with a faster twist barrel. While I am at it why not improve it? What improvement does either cartridge offer over the standard?

[Slow Elk 45/70]

When you go to the Improved you can gain a little velocity, but the best thing I have found with the 22-250 is that the sharper shoulder slows down case stretch and you don't have to trim your brass so often, IMHO

[GabbyM]

biggest reason not to is the cost of a set of reloading dies. Past that you may want to take a look at 22 BR REMINGTON. As an alternative to the 22-250 AI. You're not going to gain much over the 22-250. If you want more range going with the 6mm BR or TC is another step. I've heard tales of guys shooting 22-250 tight twist barrels with 80 gr SMK at one thousand yards. Not studied it though.

I've two new 243 AI barrels right now. When one wears out I just may go to 6.5mm Creedmore to get more life out of a barrel. Am wondering what round count one can expect from a 22-250 or 22 BR?
Talked to a fellow last night said he had eight thousand on his 22-250 varmint rifle.

[felix]

Sharper shoulders tend to increase the speed of a given powder, making it appropriate to undercut all known powder charges by 10 percent at least. This phenomenon is less and less apparent as the case gets larger and the power commensurately slower. ... felix

[felix]

Number of rounds is entirely dependent on the heat of ignition. Higher the heat and higher the carbon content of the barrel steel, the quicker the throat elongates. Therefore, increasing the length of the boolit out-of-the-case becomes necessary to compensate, and that can be more easily done by having a long case neck to accommodate deeper seating to begin with. ... felix

[Doc Highwall]

I agree with GabbyM about going with the 6mmBR. If you go on 6mmBR.com you will see lots of info on it shooting 107gr sierras all the way to 1000 yds. The three cartridges I recommend to people are 223 with 1-8" twist, 308 for shooting either
155 gr for palma or 175 gr MK's, or the 6mmBR shooting 107 gr that will out shoot either of the other two 223, 308 for wind drift. It is probably the number one F class cartridge out to 600 yds only to be bettered by the 6.5-284 for 1000 yds.

[Screwbolts]

biggest reason not to is the cost of a set of reloading dies. Past that you may want to take a look at 22 BR REMINGTON. As an alternative to the 22-250 AI. You're not going to gain much over the 22-250. If you want more range going with the 6mm BR or TC is another step. I've heard tales of guys shooting 22-250 tight twist barrels with 80 gr SMK at one thousand yards. Not studied it though.

I've two new 243 AI barrels right now. When one wears out I just may go to 6.5mm Creedmore to get more life out of a barrel. Am wondering what round count one can expect from a 22-250 or 22 BR?
Talked to a fellow last night said he had eight thousand on his 22-250 varmint rifle.

On the Cost of reloading Die Thingy, all Lee Colet dies are setup so they can be used with the AI version also, so the cost of dies is non existent.

I am currently using the same 223 Colet die to neck size for different calibers. I have simply modified the shell holders to be extended or relieved. I am using one 223 rem Colet die for 22 Hornet, 22 K Hornet, 223 Rem , and 222 Rem.

My 308 Lee Colet die is a double duty as I do 30/30s with it also.

My 30/06 Colet die is used for 3 Calibers also. 30/06, 30/06 AI and 30KBH wild cat.

[Southern Son]

2ndamendmentnut,
I have a 22/250Imp with 40* shoulder. At most, the gain over the 22/250Rem is 250fps, but most of that is simply loading the Improved to a higher pressure than the factorys load 22/250Rem at. The gunsmith that re-barrelled mine the 2nd time had done a fair bit of work with 22/250Imp and he said realistic gain is more like 150fps when loaded to the same pressure.

On the subject of reloading dies. I loaded up a bunch of fire forming loads in standard dies and used those loads to break in the barrel. I have reloaded those cases at least 6 times. I have only been neck sizing those cases with a Hornady Neck Sizing Die. They still chamber like the first time. Most of those reloads have been a 63 grain Berger J bullet with Varget powder (my loading data is on my computer at home so I can't tell you what the charge of Varget is, but it is getting about 3650fps off the top of my head).

Slow Elk is right about the cases lasting. In my first 22/250Imp barrel I was only using Winchester brass and the neck sizing die, I did not have the ability to anneal the brass and I found that the neck would crack after about 9-10 reloads, but the cases never seemed to need trimming. If I could have annealed the brass, I don't know how long I would have had those cases.

The first barrel I got reamed to 22/250Imp lasted about 8000 rounds before accuracy started to die off (where I was living I had a 300 meter rifle range only 10 minutes drive away and there was a real problem in the area with rabbits, so getting a place to go shooting was no problem at all). I was loading to max (young and stupid), mainly using 40 grain bullets at about 4100-4200fps (did not have a chrony back then), and when shooting on the range, rarely letting the barrel cool. This second barrel has had about 1500 rounds through it and I have been keeping things more sensible. Most of the shooting has been on a range in 300 meter competitions and only loaded to upper 22/250Rem levels (although I did load up some of those Barnes Varmint Grenades to 4480fps, really wish I could have tried those on a rabbit).

The main reason I went to 22/250Imp in the first place was that I was young and stupid and I wanted to shoot at ultra high velocities. After I burnt out the first barrel and had a real good gunsmith put the second barrel on, I have stayed with it because I can shoot at high 22/250Rem velocites, but stay at lower pressures than standard 22/250Rem factory. And it is something different (I was looking in the gunsafe the other day and excluding 22LR, well over half of my rifles are chambered for something that you can't buy over the counter of the average gunshop).

[runfiverun]

felix gives good advice.
the only powder i've seen react in the ackley case just like it is in a larger case has been 4895.
i generally go to a step slower powder than i am using in the regular case.
and 40* shoulder is the way to go for a target type rifle.
if you anneal the necks i would bet you could get 15 loads before having to trim. if you run close to the end of your chambers neck.
and i have no idea how long brass would go,if you anneal it every 5-6 loadings.

[phaessler]

I have a 22-250 AI 40* 1-12, by McGowen. Round count to date is 2000, have loded and tested a few over 4000fps, and the velocity gain over a standard 22-250 is minimal in my opinion, built it with hopes of going over 4400fps (young and bitten by the velocity bug). Shoulder angle does help on case stretch as mentioned here some many times. And brass life is greatly improved by annealing. But its another maintanence step associated with a wildcat.
The 40* shoulder is way more popular than the 28* too.
Biggest factor factor as pointed out to me by Harry McGowen, and in P.O. Ackleys book is the throat dimensions of the improved cartridges. Like a Weatherby, the throats are smoothed out and not sharp to promote barrel life. Barrels burn out no matter what caliber they are in if they are abused, and honestly do prarie dogs know the difference in the 250fps difference?
Costs is definently a factor a good set of dies isnt cheap, not to mention forming, whether machanical forming or fireforming the brass.
I guess its all in your level of comfort, but alot of guys have different opinions. I did it , and it was fun, but cant shoot cast boolits in it thats for sure....
Pete

[GabbyM]

I think the problem you run into with trying to shoot eighty grain bullets is RPM at the speeds a 22-250 runs at. Since you need an 8” twist to run a 22 cal 80 grain. I believe this is why manufactures offer the 223's in 9 twist buy stay down to a 12 twist with the 22-250. I know you can buy the barrels and guys are playing around with heavy bullets in 22-250 but how much luck are they having ? Are they running them throttled back to keep the bullets in one piece?

Their must be a reason you don't see heavy bullet 22-250's getting anywhere as it's been played with every since they came up with the heavy target bullets for 223. I'd sure find out before I bought a barrel.

[Shooter6br]

Had a 6br 1 in 14 Got 3350 fps with 70 Nosler .Sold the gun. Guy who bought it had a gunsmith check it out. Bore looked brand new after 1500 rds I would go with 1 in 8 or 9 for long range use.....

[Bullshop]

Going back about 2 1/2 decades when I was a fur hunter I had need of the ballistic superiority of high BC bullets in small caliber. Each time Sierra came out with a match bullets to further the range capability of the black gun shooters I built a bolt rifle especially for that bullet.
First offering from Sierra was the 69gn HPBT match for wich I built a 1/10" 224 Clark.
Lessons were learned with that rifle not only that the 69 Sierra was capable of 4000 + fps from the Clark and .5 moa at 500 yards but that the 30" NBRSA heavy varmint taper barrel I used was not suited to a walk about field gun.
Next offering from Sierra was the 80gn HPBT match and the rifle for it was a 28" 1/9" twist heavy sporter contour 22/243 Middlestead capable of pushing the 80gn Sierra to 3600 fps. This also delivering the .5 moa to the longest ranges I would expect to shoot at fur.
Finally the 90gn Sierra and we have a 25" varmint 22/250 with a 1/6.5" twist Walther barrel with polygonal rifling.
This one has just recently been completed and has not yet fired any 90gn bullets as we had none available. I did find some 69's lying about and on the first try they clustered into a nice .3 to .4" group.
My experience with Sierra and their free tech advice has been poor. With each new project undertaken the only advice received from them was, "they are not made for that". With that kind of help its no wonder so few folks have attempted any high velocity high RPS testing with the high BC 22's
So far my experience has been all good and I have learned much. I have learned that a 22 cal bullet with a BC of 500 started out in the mid 3 K's shoots awfully flat, but mostly important it cuts wind drift to a small fraction of that of conventional weight bullets for the caliber.
Another thing learned is that seemingly to get good terminal performance at long range RPS is equally if not more important than velocity.
I did a few tests that showed that at fairly close range say under 200 yards very nearly all bullet fragments from an exploding bullet completely change direction to 90* from the aimed direction. I could site a few examples but think I have rambled enough.
My advice is damn the torpedo's ( Sierra techs ) full speed ahead!!! Venture fourth lad.
There are doers and there are followers, be a doer.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[Houndog]

If you are going to rebarrell a rifle and are considereng the 22/250AI to gain more velocity, just go to a 220 swift! The accuracy is on par, dies will be cheaper and the brass is about the same cost. If you REALLY want a good shooting 22 centerfire rifle go to the 22BR in a 1/9 or 1/12 twist. They will shoot 3800FS with a 55Gr bullet and AA2520, and in the 6 or so rifles I've built in this calibre, 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards is the norm IF you can shoot and do your part. In the 1/9 twist they also handle the 69GR bullets well. Barrell life will be better than the 22/250 or the 220 swift. Incedently, I've found a Swift at 3800FS shoots a whole lot better than it will at full throtle and the barrells will last a lot longer.

The 6 BR is my general purpose go to rifle round and is what I currently shoot in my 600 and 1,000 yard match rifles. A 70 grain bullet at 33-3400 Fs makes a dandy varmint round and a 85-105 grain load at around 2800 FS makes a deer load that will do almost everything the 243 will. They are not hard to get to shoot and the barrells seem to last forever. Accuracy wise, they are almost on par with a 6PPC and a whole lot less trouble! My varmint rig has 5,000 rounds through it and still shoots under 7/16 at 100 yards! Four powders will do everything a 6 BR can do and they are Benchmark, H335, Blc-2 and 4895. BTW: my absolute best group with the 6BR in my match rifle was a2 3/8 inch 10 shot group at 1,000 yards! I just wish I had done it in regestered competition!

[AZ-Stew]

Good writeup, Bullshop. I have a Rem 700 action and a Choate Sniper stock around here I've been wanting to use for a .22-250 of some description. I've just been waiting for $$ to barrel it.

The intent is to make a long range varminter, shooting heavy bullets - 69 grains and up. You're absolutely right about the higher BC bullets being better in the wind. I've been shooting F-Class competition on our local range. We shoot at 500 yards, and I've been shooting an AR with a Bushmaster 24" 1:9 barrel in .223. It will shoot the 75 gr Hornady A-Max, but until I have the time to test seating depths with it, I can't say it shoots as good as the 70gr Berger VLD. Now, strictly speaking, these two are near the bottom of the "heavy" bullet range for .22 caliber, but I can't drive anything else fast enough out of the .223 to stabilize and test them, but the 70 and 75 grain bullets are FAR less sensitive to the wind than the standard 52 - 55 gr varmint bullets. I've had these scattered all over the 500 yard target, even in moderate wind conditions. So, whatever I come up with, I'd like it to shoot at least 80 gr bullets, and at as far over 3,000 fps as I can get them to go. I can only get the 70 and 75 gr bullets up to 28-2900 fps out of the .223 before the pressures get out of hand.

Any additional wisdom you have in this regard would be appreciated.

Regards,

Stew