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Newtire
06-01-2006, 10:25 PM
Getting some loads ready for this weekend but, from past experience,am a little untrusty of the info I see sometimes on the good ol internet. For example, have seen some .444 loads that are downright scary over on Beartooth. I have seen some articles on the 30-30 Ackley but they were made for a T/C contender. Mine is a '94 Angle Eject before they started putting the crossbolt safety. Plan on fireforming some new cases first like they say & then running them thru the RCBS Dies. Did a few already & they look to have come out nice.
Anyway, anyone here have any experience with that round? I have a bunch of 170-190 gr. moulds and a few FLGC bullets kicking around. got IMR 3031, 4064, 4198, H-4895 & H-335, AA 2015 & 2520, some RX-7, Plus some Win 748..Any starting loads I could work on? Just want to be careful is all! Am happy with the regular .30-30's I got but couldn't pass this deal up, a real cherry gun for under $400.00. I am a sicko..

rmb721
06-01-2006, 10:48 PM
I use a Lyman #311041 bullet with 25 grains of IMR3031 in a regular 30/30. It might be a starting point. Good luck.

Newtire
06-01-2006, 11:41 PM
I use a Lyman #311041 bullet with 25 grains of IMR3031 in a regular 30/30. It might be a starting point. Good luck.
Yup, can't be too keerful. I love that 311041. Load it with 30.5 gr. H-335 in my regular .30-30. It really shines. That & the group buy 311407 with the same load.
I am gonna try some of that 3031. Used to load that with the FLGC types @30 gr. and a 150 grainer. Was a real nice load and we killed a couple of hogs with it.

TedH
06-04-2006, 09:31 AM
I've done quite a bit of work with my 30-30 AI built on a Marlin 30TK. Never tried any cast bullets in it though. I have found Reloder 15 and Varget to be the best powders. 3031 and 748 do fine also, but with less velocity.

fish_bait
06-04-2006, 11:07 PM
Newtire

I own 3 30-30 AI's. Two Marlins and a Win 94 AE like yours. My fireform load is one I have used for 30 years or so. It is 10.5 gr. of IMR SR4756, Lyman 31141 or 311041, if your mold is newer and Win brass with no filler. There is a target on the wall of Jandro's Guns in Lakewood, CO that I shot fireforming 50 rounds with the above load. It is an odd shaped group roughly 1 1/2" by 2". My favorite load for the 31141 is 18.5 gr. of Accurate 5744 for 1750 fps. The same amount of IMR 4227 is very close and meters better from a powder measure. A load my grandkids really like is 17.5 gr. of IMR 4227 behind a bullet you all call the "soap can", Ideal/Lyman 311316. The little Lee 30-115 is basically the same. It weighs 105 gr. in linotype and is a great shooter with very low recoil and much flatter trajectory than the 31141. Velocity is 1950 + or -. All these bullets are gas checked and lubed with Lyman Moly Lube.

I have shot several jacketed loads using the Speer 130 gr. FP and the Sierra 125 gr. HP. Loads for both of these are found in an article Paco Kelly wrote a few years ago. His loads were too hot in all my guns and I settled on 40 gr. of Hodgdon Ball C #2 behind both bullets. He recommended 42 gr., if I remember correctly. I killed my last deer with the 130 gr. Speer and this load and it did a great job at 110 yards. I haven't hunted in several years because of really bad knees. LoadData.com has many loads for jacketed stuff.

If you send me a PM with your e-mail, I will send you copies of some articles on the 30-30 AI I have collected over the last 30+ years. I have Paco's article and one other very good one by Don Roberts that was in Handloader 107 from Jan/Feb 1984. I also have several documents of loads I have found in various places. Lots of loads are on LoadData.com.

LET-CA
06-05-2006, 12:22 AM
Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what a gunsmith would charge to take one of my Winchester 30-30s and ream it out to the 30-30 AI? Thanks in advance.

6pt-sika
06-05-2006, 06:15 AM
This is just a guesse but I believe I was told 3 or 4 years ago that I could have it done for $100 . So now I would say $100-175 .:neutral:

Ranch Dog
06-05-2006, 07:57 AM
Lenny...

I had Robert Boses at Boses' Guns (http://www.bosesguns.com/) do the chambering on a Marlin I sent him for a rebuild. The rechambering part was inexpensive and he did some really good work. You might get his phone number off the web page and give him a call.

LET-CA
06-05-2006, 12:20 PM
Lenny...

I had Robert Boses at Boses' Guns (http://www.bosesguns.com/) do the chambering on a Marlin I sent him for a rebuild. The rechambering part was inexpensive and he did some really good work. You might get his phone number off the web page and give him a call.

Thanks for the input - (both of you) I'll call my local smith this morning and see if he's done any.

Take care and thanks again.

Newtire
06-09-2006, 07:50 PM
Thanks much to Fish-Bait for the great information he sent & the others of you for your much appreciated input.

I had a little problem last week with a scope that was trash and managed to borrow the 6X fixed scope off my son's .243 to test out my .30-30 AI.
I made up 40 more "fire-form" loads using 28 gr. AA 2520 and a 170 gr. 311041 seated into the lands. After a little juggling around, the Weaver got dialed in & I began to see the red dot fill up with holes on the 50 yd target.
Best shooting was with the 311407 and my fire-form loads! No kiddin! 3-shots into 1/2" & 5-shots into 7/8" @ 50 yds.
I loaded some loads in the already-fireformed cases I had. Using 34 gr. 4064 and 311041, put 5- into 1" wide by 2 1/2" vertical group and the 311407 went into 1/2" wide by 1 3/4"vertical. I was shooting without giving the gun a fair chance to cool off much as I was running out of time. I also did some shooting with my .30 carbine & Ruger .44 carbine today. More on that stuff later. I was really relieved that the scope was the problem. I am really lucky that there is a group like this one to touch bases on things with or would have never got to first base. Thanks again folks!

JSH
06-09-2006, 08:52 PM
To do a true "AI" the barrel will have to be taken off and set back. Other wise you just end up with an improved with a longer throat than the original chambering.


Glad to see the AA 2520 worked for you I was going to suggest it. My Marlin 3030RC really seems to like it.
Jeff

william iorg
06-13-2006, 08:30 PM
To do a true "AI" the barrel will have to be taken off and set back. Other wise you just end up with an improved with a longer throat than the original chambering.Jeff

Hello, I believe this is my first post on this Board.
If you look at the case dimensions of the .30-30 Ackley Improved vs. the standard .30-30 you will notice the standard cartridge has the point of the shoulder at 1.440”, the .30-30 Improved has the point of the shoulder at 1.590”. This allows the reamer to be run into a barrel while still screwed in the receiver and will still form a chamber that matches the drawings. There are a few Ackley Improved cartridges that push the shoulder forward in this manner, but this is not what Ackley is best remembered for. I have reamed several lever action rifles to the Ackley Improved version of the .30-30 with the barrels mounted on the receiver and all of the fired cases match the cartridge drawings.

Newtire
06-13-2006, 11:55 PM
To do a true "AI" the barrel will have to be taken off and set back. Other wise you just end up with an improved with a longer throat than the original chambering.


Glad to see the AA 2520 worked for you I was going to suggest it. My Marlin 3030RC really seems to like it.
Jeff
Am going to try some "Ackley-ized" cases with that AA2520 now that I have about 150 cases made up. Since it is a tad slower than IMR 4064, and I used 34 gr. IMR 4064, seems 34 gr. would be a good place to start with a 170 gr. cast boolit.

onceabull
06-14-2006, 12:18 AM
william iorg: Slim, welcome here. I've enjoyed your input for a good long time at other sites... :drinks: Onceabull

william iorg
06-14-2006, 07:31 AM
Nice Icons... "Frosty Man"

JSH
06-14-2006, 08:15 AM
Slim, hello and welcome.
I had both of Ackley's books and loaned them out, they have not came home yet. I had a couple of links to some cartridge drawings and lost them as well. I have a feeler out now to try and retrieve them.
I guess I should have made myself a little more clear on my above post. I wasn't actually refering to the shoulder, rather the OAL of the fired AI case. Yes. it will blow out to said dimensions. But, when you take the taper out and make the case a bit larger in diameter towards the shoulder the brass will actaull shorten, correct?
Thus doing so will actaully then lengthen the throat. Not that most CB shooters would have a problem with this. FLGC I think would be less forgiving in this area.
None the less, I myself wouldn't want a throat any longer than necessary.

I am all ears to this if I missed somthing.

Newtire, the AA2520 is milsurp I have came from Pats Reloading last summer, so you know.

Jeff

william iorg
06-14-2006, 03:17 PM
You are sure right on both counts.
With jacketed bullets I have not seen any loss in performan - accuracy - with the extra throat. I have formed brass from .32 Win Spl, .38-55 and .375 Winchester looking for this very thing - that is, being able to "prove" I could get better accuracy with a longer case that fills the chamber.
When shooting cast bullets I just made certain my bullets filled the throat - diameter wise - and I got excellent accuracy below 1800 fps. I never tried to push them any faster and the majority of my cast bullets shooting was in the 1400 to 1600 fps area.
My favorite .30 caliber cast bullet is the Lyman 311291, the big round nose causeing the bullet to be seated a little deeper than I really want - even though this bullet is supposed to fit the neck of the standard .30-30. I shot most of these as cast and hand lubed or tumble lubed.

Greg Mushial - gmdr.com - has shot a lot of cast bullet loads in his .30-30AI and his data is posted on his web site. On his home page scroll to the bottom of the lever gun picture and click on the two links.
Greg and I both prefer fast powders for low velocity cast bullets loads. I am talking small game and target loads. For big game hunting I agree with the IMR 4064 thoughts.
Greg's favorite cast bullet in the .30-30AI is the Laser Cast 170 grain flat nose bullet - very similar to the Lyman bullet. He shoots these with the commercial lube and no gas check. I foprget what diameter these are but I think they are small - .309" or so. Gregs loads with fast powder burns all of the powder in the case before the bullet get started up the bore and he has very little trouble with gas cutting. His data is worth looking at. Also read the point paper at the top of the data list.

I wish my bench technique were as good as his. The guy can shoot from the bench. We have exchanged a few scanned targets and he kicks me hard!

Steves pages and the Reload Bench both have full cartridge case drawing on the site. If you need a link i'll post it in this thread.

JSH
06-14-2006, 11:13 PM
Slim thanks. A good read. Do you have a link to Greg's site or home page?
I have been intereested in the 30-30 AI for quite a while but have not stepped up to the plate yet, so to speak.
I had thought also on other cases, but with the 30-30 brass plentuful and cheap what the heck if they would only last 3-4 loadings. I have also been interested in the 30-40 AI as that was supposed to be one of the better AI's.
Didn't mean to hijack this thread, sorry.
Jeff

felix
06-14-2006, 11:49 PM
Jeff, it is my gun, I would specify the INTENT of the Ackley design to be fact. This means the actual headspace (not the rim) be set to where a standard off the shelf cartridge will contact the chamber, giving feel upon bolt closure. In a lever gun, naturally, you'd want the bolt closure to just barely felt as compared to a bolt gun where it would be more desirable to really feel it. ... felix

william iorg
06-15-2006, 09:14 AM
JSH
To put a little more light on chamber length thoughts. The standard .30-30 overall length is about 2.039”. The .30-30AI is about 2.00”.
While the .30-30AI will shoot cast bullets very well I don’t look at it as a cast bullet cartridge. I find the standard .30-30 much easier to work with. Most of this is due to the steep shoulder angle. The steep angle allows the shoulder to set back ever so slightly if you are not very careful. This puts a bulge just below the point of the shoulder that is difficult to see but restricts the cartridge from fully chambering. With jacketed bullets a good case mouth chamfer and slight case mouth flare pretty much solves the problem. With cast bullets the .30-30AI is a little more difficult to work with. I find it helpful to lube the inside of the case mouths with Lee case sizing lube prior to using the Lyman M-die. This is because the unlubed plug of the Lyman M-die itself has collapsed the shoulder on occasion when inserted to condition the neck and flare the case mouth.
I have switched to the Lee case flaring tool for use with jacketed bullets as I believe the Lee tool is giving me a little tighter bullet pull and due to this I am seeing smaller extreme spreads when chronographing. I was using the Lyman M-die with jacketed bullets and with extruded powders I was very satisfied with my data. With ball powders I would invariably see higher extreme velocity spreads than I desired. Limited testing indicates the Lee tool is giving me more uniform results with ball powders.

The subject of head spacing rimmed lever action cartridges on the shoulder is an interesting one for discussion. I have found I shoot the same size or smaller groups in lever action rifles with full-length re-sized cases. We have run some side-by-side comparisons in our Marlin 336 and Winchester Model 94AE .30-30AI’s and we believe there is no difference in group size when using full-length re-sized cases.
I have read quite a bit of Ackley’s writing and I don’t believe it was his intent to headspace rimmed cartridges on the shoulder for lever action rifles. I am not an expert on Ackley’s writings and I could be wrong here. His first Handbook For Shooters and Reloaders is a spiral bound flexible cover notebook that has a list of minimum chamber dimensions. All of the rimmed cartridges are headspaced on the rim. Certainly the .25-35AI, a more extreme Improvement, would be a difficult cartridge to load to high pressure in a lever-action rifle without full length re-sizing. Cartridges such as the .30-40 Krag Improved or .219 Zipper Improved if used in a Winchester Hi-Wall action would require careful partial sizing to ensure the cartridge would chamber and allow the action to close. A rifle built on a Mauser action would change all of this.
Case life with the .30-30AI is not a problem when new or once fired brass is used. .30-30 cases reloaded multiple times and then formed to the Improved shape have a short life when loaded to high pressure in lever action rifles. These cases typically crack or break at the pressure ring in four firings. Necking the cases up to .32 caliber and forming a false shoulder on them for the fire forming operation helps but does not eliminate the problem.

Here is a link to Greg Mushials web site.

http://www.gmdr.com/

Bass Ackward
06-15-2006, 09:31 AM
That's the beauty of a rimmed case. You headspace on the rim and at the same time you also headspace on the shoulder after the first two firings. The sharper shoulder gives you more ability to do that. But as Bill identified, the sharper shoulder also weakens an already thin case for seating bullets. Plus, if you want to use fast powders in small amounts, a tapered case holds the powder up in the flash range of the primer and gravity keeps it back against the primer better than a straight sided case does.

Quite to the amazement of a lot of folks, you can full length size without touching the shoulder at all. In fact, that is supposed to be how it's done where the only thing you have to headspace on is the shoulder. If your chamber has tight match specifications, you will in effect end up only neck sizing anyway because the body of the case won't really be touched. That's the advantage of a tight chamber vs "tight headspace" after firing.

Trailblazer
06-15-2006, 03:27 PM
William,

are you still planning on pressure testing the 30-30 AI?

JSH
06-15-2006, 06:31 PM
I only wish I had the funds to fool with a high wall. Any of you that know me will know I was looking at a TC for a platform if this were ever to grab me. Although I have ran across several 788's in the last few months chambered in 30-30, on was a gosh awful heavy barreled gun that was chambered in 30-30 AI. Good looking rig but far from a hunting gune or varmint carry gun. I have wished I had looked at it a bit more...........................
Interesting thread here, alot of info and thoughts.
Jeff

william iorg
06-15-2006, 07:09 PM
Ranch Dog is doing the testing. I cant wait. Several of us have a "friendly debate" on-going as to the pressure of my "maximum" loads. I say my maximum loads are above 50,000 CUP. Others think they will prove a bit less. If they are right I am going to feel pretty good. If they are wrong and the loads prove of considerably higher pressure I will have to do some re-thinking.
I think Ranch Dog is on track for the fall when the temps cool down. If he gets side tracked my Dad and I will split the cost of a Pressure Trace Program and see if can learn the program.

I have looked at the Remington 788's too but they are expensive, even the non-collector examples. The TC Contender and the Encore are sure nice rifles. I have a 24" TC barrel in .25-35AI. It is a real shooter. The Contender is light and a little harder to shoot small groups with from the bench with the heavy kickers. For cartridges in the .30-30 class the carbine is fun to shoot. At less than 6lbs with iron sights the .44 Magnum is quite a handfull in the carbine. I should say an eye opener!

Trailblazer
06-16-2006, 10:21 AM
I am looking forward to seeing the pressure data. It will be interesting!